Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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Huruf!!
How nice to be missed by youI visited the forum from time to time. I hope this time is not just a quick visit.
I subscribed to an Egyptian forum and was hoping to participate in both, but I was quickly absorbed in discussing my "bizarre" understanding without the help of traditions, hoping to promote quran only there. It was difficult at first but was worth the effort, and I think some got the point. -
I go away for only three years, come back and find that you are still discussing the meaning of "zina"? ;D
Zina has its origin in Hebrew and it means "the act of prostitute of the altar"; that's performing sex in public.
Salams
thats interesting etymology, but how are you ascertaing that zina meant this at the time when Quran was revealed? -
Salams
thats interesting etymology, but how are you ascertaing that zina meant this at the time when Quran was revealed?Salaam
I hope I understood your question.
Do you mean whether public sex existed or not? If it did, what was it called? Arabic was not an evolved language. Even now, we have lost the meaning of this word and are unable to come with another word that means "public sex".
Since the word has its origin in a language prior to Arabic, it means that this practice was common, and linked to religion. This has to be stopped.
Sex between two persons is not a thing that would be watched by four people! Spying is forbidden, houses should not be entered into without permission, therefore any evidence built on spying is not admissible by God. It would be obsolete to have a punishment for a crime that is impossible to prove. Not only that, but if you do not prove it you are punished. Porn is the only sexual act that meets this condition for evidence.
If we look at other punishable crimes, no specific evidence is required, so we can apply any evidence that's available, and permissible. -
Salaam
I hope I understood your question.
Do you mean whether public sex existed or not? If it did, what was it called? Arabic was not an evolved language. Even now, we have lost the meaning of this word and are unable to come with another word that means "public sex".
Since the word has its origin in a language prior to Arabic, it means that this practice was common, and linked to religion. This has to be stopped.
Sex between two persons is not a thing that would be watched by four people! Spying is forbidden, houses should not be entered into without permission, therefore any evidence built on spying is not admissible by God. It would be obsolete to have a punishment for a crime that is impossible to prove. Not only that, but if you do not prove it you are punished. Porn is the only sexual act that meets this condition for evidence.
If we look at other punishable crimes, no specific evidence is required, so we can apply any evidence that's available, and permissible.Salam sister Samia
This is very interesting. Can you share your conclusion of the translation of Zina a little more in-depth? What you are saying makes a lot of sense, it actually makes a lot of sense. It makes ALOT of sense when you remember pagan practices where public sex was part of many fertility rituals.....But since you are the first (that I heard at least) to interpret it into public sex I have a little doubt. Eventhough you are a new face to me I see by the sheer number of posts you have been around for a while, but I still would like to know where or how you came to your conclusion.
Please forgive me if I write this post as a challenge, it is not. I am merely looking for information, and not being able to read arabic I rely on knowledgable people like yourself to give their interpretations.
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I hope samia will answer because I always like to read her answers and I have profited a lot from her writings,
From my own accord I will say however that many people have interpreted zina as public sex, simply because of the four witnesses. ?How on earth by chance would anyone have four people around for such enterprise? Also the warnings and calls to restrain to the people after the ayas setting the punishment are a clear indication that nobody should watch around for anybody's virtue. So it really makes a lot of sense.
What Samia has added is the public part as an acknowledgement of a structured public sex performance activity, seems to me.
Salaam
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Thanks Huruf
Emil
As Huruf explained, I am not the only one, and probably not even the first, to understand so. It's a logical point.
This understanding is long held on free-minds.
This post was the easiest to find. Maybe not even the first post with this understandingThis again brings me to what exactly is "zina" as defined per al-qur'aan.
In my understanding, the punishment of lashes for "zina" is ONLY when the act is witnessed by 4 or more people (244, 2413). Thus, under this definition, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people (pornography), and a legally married couple having sex in front of 4 or more people would incur the same punishment.
Thus for me, according to al-qur'aan, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people, and "fahisha" would include fornication and adultery which has no "human" punishment (if not witnessed by 4 or more people) but is still haram/forbidden.
From this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=113271;topic=13453.0;last_msg=117619 -
Everyday you learn something new ) Thanks Samia
Ok since I am doer and not a thinker, please give me a little feedback if I got this right
• Zina means public sex. Unmarried or married does not matter
• Fahisha can be translated to lewdness. There is no stipulated punishment in the Quran for lewdness
• Zina is not Zina until it is witnessed by four.
• Fahisha becomes only punishable when witnessed by four
Now, Let me see if I got this straight, and like I said before, I am learning here so please do not think I am challenging, I just want to learn..........
If I and three of my mates actively decide (not stumble in by accident) to watch a couple having sex I could (after I watched them) report them to the "authorities" for committing the act of Zina. The couple will be punished for the act but I will not be punished for watching.
Because lewdness is not precisly described in the Quran it is up to the reader or perhaps community to decide what is and what is not lewd. It is very individual, some people feel everything but vaginal sex is lewd and some are more liberal. Lewdness is all in the mind and heart of each and everyone of us. (I am not suggesting the Quran is imperfect. On the contrary Allah shows us that we are allowed to feel and think freely and also so in what attracts us, but if we are to step over our own moral values we are also stepping over Allah's border of lewdness).
Anyways, a couple could invite another couple to do............together do you-know-what.........The traditional interpretation Zina=adultery would not allow this because a husband/wife having sex with another person is still considered adultery eventhough the husband/wife approves. But if Zina=public sex the adultery part is no longer valid, therefore we could share our husband/wife with another person.Please NOTA BENE that I am only speaking in theory. I am only talking about the punishments set out by God for mankind to enforce, I am on purpose not including any moral values. Only in theory people!
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Salaam
I hope I understood your question.
Do you mean whether public sex existed or not? If it did, what was it called? Arabic was not an evolved language. Even now, we have lost the meaning of this word and are unable to come with another word that means "public sex".
Since the word has its origin in a language prior to Arabic, it means that this practice was common, and linked to religion. This has to be stopped.
Sex between two persons is not a thing that would be watched by four people! Spying is forbidden, houses should not be entered into without permission, therefore any evidence built on spying is not admissible by God. It would be obsolete to have a punishment for a crime that is impossible to prove. Not only that, but if you do not prove it you are punished. Porn is the only sexual act that meets this condition for evidence.
If we look at other punishable crimes, no specific evidence is required, so we can apply any evidence that's available, and permissible.Sorry, i dont quite understand. Zina seems to be commonly defined as sex outside of marriage. Where are you getting your 'public sex' definition from for the time that Quran was revealed? a word can have a root meaning and also common usage that changes within a relatively short space of time ('gay' being a modern example, where the commonly understood meaning of the word changed radically in less than 50 years). So to use a definition that existed long before Quran isnt necessarily of help (it would also be helpful to know what your sources are regarding the pre-Quran definition). Is there not evidence that the word at the time was commonly known to mean sex outside of marriage? if not, why is it so usually defined that way now?
Also, It doesnt have to be public sex for 4 witnesses to witness two people having sex, people could walk in on people having extra marital sex. Also, if someone suspects their partner of commiting adultery, could they not catch them out with 3 other witnesses? why would this be a problem?
Also regarding 'lewdness', a husband can punish his wife for lewdness can he not (beating verse)?
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You do not have to apologize, even for challenging me. That's OK. We learn from each other, and I learn from imaginative minds
In the case where one with friends decide to watch a couple having sex. How did they get to watch them? By sneaking? We speak here about the permissibility of the evidence.
Lewdness in any form is prohibited, even in secret as per 6151. There is a difference between prohibition and punishment. Not everything that's prohibited is punishable by the authorities. Only crimes against the society or individuals are. The others are left to God to punish for or pardon.
The case of husband / wife is a very sensitive matter. For that, God allowed an alternative to 4 witnesses as per 246 considering it a grave crime against the other spouse that calls for punishment and end of marriage. Other relatives do not enjoy this benefit. They still have to come up with 4 witnesses.
The case of rape is treated wrongly in Muslim societies where 4 witnesses are required. This is a different crime, not zina, and should be proven by any means.
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Sorry, i dont quite understand. Zina seems to be commonly defined as sex outside of marriage.
I know. And I know that some believe that 4 witnesses are meant to make it difficult to punish people. We ended up with women only being punished for getting pregnant 4 witnesses is not respected here; and the partner could not be punished because there are no 4 witnesse. Do you see the problem with this definition of adultery and the discrepancy with the 4 witness when applied to other than public sex?
What's commonly defined is not necessarily the true definition. Muslims have been absorbed in studying hadith and other Islamic heritage at the expense of studying the qur'aan. Add to this the rampant illetracy in these countries, one can hardly speak of any serious study of any verse.
Where are you getting your 'public sex' definition from for the time that Quran was revealed? a word can have a root meaning and also common usage that changes within a relatively short space of time ('gay' being a modern example, where the commonly understood meaning of the word changed radically in less than 50 years). So to use a definition that existed long before Quran isnt necessarily of help (it would also be helpful to know what your sources are regarding the pre-Quran definition). Is there not evidence that the word at the time was commonly known to mean sex outside of marriage? if not, why is it so usually defined that way now?
If you have any document in Arabic at the time of the qur'aan, or even a century after it, with this word in use as adultery, I will change my mind.
Also, It doesnt have to be public sex for 4 witnesses to witness two people having sex, people could walk in on people having extra marital sex.
Have you ever walked in with your friends on people having sex, whether marital or extra? I haven't, although I lived in many countries and lived for quite a long time.
Also, if someone suspects their partner of commiting adultery, could they not catch them out with 3 other witnesses? why would this be a problem?
Also regarding 'lewdness', a husband can punish his wife for lewdness can he not (beating verse)?
- read 246
- No, he can't.
- Verse 434 ( beating verse) does not contain any word that relates to "lewdness".
- Verse 24 6 tells the spouse what to do when they accuse their partner, and how to overcome the 4-witness prerequisite.
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I think the public sex does not address the part of betrayal as its this, not the sex, that invokes a reaction. A reaction that often can lead to violence. Most of all it also breaks a family.
The goal of the verse is to stop people talking about the subject. Cause, even if a person witnessed something, and that very likely, he can't say anything because he needs other witnesses. He may be saying the truth, but in God's eyes, not humans, he is considered a liar. The verse itself came in the occassion as a rumor spread about some sexual misconduct.
Eevn if people are having public sex, who will complain? Its always the partner or spouse who will invoke some reaction. People can complain about public sex because of indecency. But the Koran can not talk abot lashing because of public decency, but it can when it comes to betrayal. Its just human nature that people can not handle their partner or spouse cheating on them with another. Public sex can be an orgy of people who couldn't care less.
Because of the violence that it brings, the issue is serious. It also can break a family perhaps more than anything else.
I am not sure about the pregnancy part. If a women gets pregnant so what? The important part here is identifying who the father is. But thats no violation of somebody else. The Koran tends to allow people to interfere when somebody else's right is violated. So I am not sure what pregnancy has to do with it other than proving that the women had sex either by her own decision or was forced into it.
I still see the verse primarily concerned with people slandering and involving themselves in other's affairs, while the adultery part is similar to Moses and the kill yourself verse. It may the right punishment , but its not easy to carry out. Its not easy to flog a woman, as the case in Sudan showed. Just like its not easy to kill yourself, even if that is the technical punishment. It shocked the nation as Sudanese only flog men.
Only people of strong discipline and faith can do that. Like Judas did in the Gospel. He did the right thing.
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I think the public sex does not address the part of betrayal as its this, not the sex, that invokes a reaction. A reaction that often can lead to violence. Most of all it also breaks a family.
Sexual betrayal is the climax of betrayal and the one that is more difficult to pardon. It is a result of an already broken family, not the other way round, that's why divorce is the rule even with counter evidence (4 oaths) by the accused. A reaction that's not reasonable should not be taken as an excuse or a mitigating circumstances, just like in any other crime. It could even be taken as a crime in itself if the spouse does not take the case of betrayal to the judge.
As for being a deterrent from slandering others, yes, there is a verse for that, but there is also another verse for punishing the culprits and a command to mu'mins not to marry them.
The question is on what grounds are women alone punished because of extra marital pregnancies? Could pregnancy be taken as an alternative to the 4 witnesses? The answer is misunderstanding of the word "zina".
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The question is on what grounds are women alone punished because of extra marital pregnancies? Could pregnancy be taken as an alternative to the 4 witnesses? The answer is misunderstanding of the word "zina".
That exactly is the reason why four eye witnessess is the condition, no other evidence is permissible in the court. Pregnancy is neither evidence nor proof of Zina.
Zina is a willfully consented act, both parties willingly and lovingly approaching for this act.
A woman can become or made pregnant even when she did not have any idea as to how has she become pregnant. In deep sleep, temporary unconsciouness, insertion through syrnge etc could also result in pregnancy, while she might not have even felt the insertion.
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You do not have to apologize, even for challenging me. That's OK. We learn from each other, and I learn from imaginative minds
In the case where one with friends decide to watch a couple having sex. How did they get to watch them? By sneaking? We speak here about the permissibility of the evidence.
Lewdness in any form is prohibited, even in secret as per 6151. There is a difference between prohibition and punishment. Not everything that's prohibited is punishable by the authorities. Only crimes against the society or individuals are. The others are left to God to punish for or pardon.
The case of husband / wife is a very sensitive matter. For that, God allowed an alternative to 4 witnesses as per 246 considering it a grave crime against the other spouse that calls for punishment and end of marriage. Other relatives do not enjoy this benefit. They still have to come up with 4 witnesses.
The case of rape is treated wrongly in Muslim societies where 4 witnesses are required. This is a different crime, not zina, and should be proven by any means.
Salam
By watching a couple I meant the couple indeed knows people are watching which would be Zina (public sex). I find it hard to comprehend that the actors will be punished harshly but not the audience.
Lewdness in any sort is prohibited, yes. To decide what lewdness means is left up to us as individuals to value. You and I might find something not lewd whereas the exact same act would be considered lewd by someone else. With lewdness Allah lets us put our own boundaries. Of course there are two limits as far as I understand, not oppressive and not approaching people with lust (sexual harassement in todays lingo). That is why I say that when/if you are feeling lewd, stop &Rape falls under a whole other category, oppression. There is absolutely no minimum requirements of witnesses for such a crime.
I am trying to find the technicality in how a law would work, there is no use having a law with loopholes, right? Not only that, when it comes to the law of Allah it also has to be timeless.
I can understand zina=adultery because the act has enormous consequences not only to the ones involved but also the innocent (children, other family members). Throughout the cultures and religions adultery has always been fought and regarded as one of the biggest betrayals. Public sex however does not carry the same "weight", and I cannot comprehend how Allah could set down a number for what is private and what is public. Playing the devil's advocate I could say that a sex show is not punishable as long as the audience is not bigger than three people.If the law of Allah is timeless, then Zina has problems today. A movie or play illustrating a private act between husband and wife but not transgressing the value of lewdness set down by the community, it would still be regarded as punishable with a 100 stripes. To me, it doesnt make sense....
I have never seen the harsh punishment for zina=adultery to have anything to do with the betrayal of ones spouse. I see the harsh punishment for zina=uncommitted sex. I see it as a punishment for an act that could result in making a baby that you have absolutely no responsibility for or committment to. Since the arab orphan means "fatherless child" it make sense to me. The man is punished for (or at least willingly risking it)creating a baby that will grow up without a father's committment and the woman is punished for creating a baby that will grow up without a father.
If the committment is there it is not Zina anymore. If the two people involved are willing to take responsibility and "suffer the consequence )" then there is no harm. This is shown in 245 where if you repent and promise to do good (take responsibility) you shall not be punished (actually this leads me to a question, is 245 speaking of the people committing zina or only the accusers? Reading an english Quran suggests it is both)
Samia, I must stress again the point that I am not challenging you (ie saying you are wrong). I am very open to zina=public sex, but right now I am having trouble connecting the dots. -
Well Emil
I agree totally with what Huruf says.You have raised some quite interesting points.
Adultery between spouses is dealt with in the same manner as zina, with an alternative to the 4 witnesses in 246As for other acts of public lewdness less than sexual act, I believe that the sexual act is the upper limit. This does not mean that there should not be a law for other kinds. Drinking alcohol, for example, does not bear a punishment in the quraan, yet a drunken walking in the streets harassing others should be punished, although even harassment does not have a punishment in the qur'aan, The qur'aan is a guide, telling us examples of what is punishable and what's not, and we can deduce that crimes against the society and individuals are punishable, but drinking alcohol in your house or even in a pub without a problem is not.
It's interesting that you mention fatherless children "yatamaa". The qur'aan sets a solution for them, but not a punishment for the parents in verse 43, erroneously considered as a green light to polygamy without restrictions.
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You have raised some quite interesting points.
Adultery between spouses is dealt with in the same manner as zina, with an alternative to the 4 witnesses in 246Salaam Samia and all,
I am afraid why 246 and the following aayaats never used the word "Zina". Are they referring to some other subject and not zina? If so, then it will change the complete understanding of the word zina.
As for other acts of public lewdness less than sexual act, I believe that the sexual act is the upper limit. This does not mean that there should not be a law for other kinds. Drinking alcohol, for example, does not bear a punishment in the quraan, yet a drunken walking in the streets harassing others should be punished, although even harassment does not have a punishment in the qur'aan, The qur'aan is a guide, telling us examples of what is punishable and what's not, and we can deduce that crimes against the society and individuals are punishable, but drinking alcohol in your house or even in a pub without a problem is not.
I am always stuck on this, why are there no punishments for any thing, not even for Shirk and there is a very tough punishment just for an act of 15 minutes? I did not get this.
People who are doing shirk are misguiding others from their Lord, spending thousands of bugs spending their whole life to misguide from the true path of Allah, very openly, publicly but still not punishment for them and a very hard punishment for...... ???
I feel that "Zina" is something totally different, it has nothing to do with sex, because 416 there is no punishment, just "Eiza" that is only something uncomfortable as in case of "hayz" in 2222
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path. pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam Samia and all,
I am afraid why 246 and the following aayaats never used the word "Zina". Are they referring to some other subject and not zina? If so, then it will change the complete understanding of the word zina.
Salaam Khan
Because it is an ongoing subject and zina is mentioned from verse 2. No need to mention zina every time
Notice the mention of " azaab\ torture" describing the punishment for zina in verse 2 and verse 8
People who are doing shirk are misguiding others from their Lord, spending thousands of bugs spending their whole life to misguide from the true path of Allah, very openly, publicly but still not punishment for them and a very hard punishment for......
I do not know what you understand with the term "shirk", but according to my understanding, it is punishable. One of them is this punishment for zina.
I feel that "Zina" is something totally different, it has nothing to do with sex, because 416 there is no punishment
416 is not about two men and therefore not about homosexuality. Fahisha is a broad term, not necessarily linked only to sex. The verse addresses a group of men and women, not just men.