Learning from modern jewish history....to go forward.
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Hi Man of Faith,
I agree. However in my interactions here with other free-minders it seems as though they wish to have a community which to rely on for support. These were just my thoughts in how to go about this. If people want to do their own thing then that is great. If people want a community, then they need some outlet for that.
How do I define a Jew? One who identifies with the Jewish people either through association or heritage.
No the Quranist movement isn't like Reform Judaism. I don't think it should be. However I was hoping that if this group wanted to form a community, they could look at how others were successful about forming theirs. Of course I would say that a Karaite Jew would be accepted whole heartedly in a Reform congregation. Reform basically says do what works best for you in keeping with tradition.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Reform Judaism basically says do what works best for you in keeping with tradition.
Hello @JewishDude,
does that imply that that tradition is right, or the correct one?
Thank you.
PS
(I am of an opinion that one should take advantage of all the spiritual possibilities one wishes since God Himself also gave us so many Ways and Paths towards Him), and I agree with your sentence from the initial postTry to do what is meaningful that connects you to God.
However, I would like to ask you something, and I hope you will excuse me for asking you this question, (I wished to ask you this long time ago, even since I started following some of your very good posts) -where are you now in relation to Reform Judaism, and -why do you have the need to engage with Islam and the Qur'an?
Is it because of some lack in Judaism, or just giving yourself more possibilities for richer spiritual experiences?
Or, is it because of some intellectual challenge of comparison?
Please feel free not to answer the question if you do not wish to, and please forgive me if you find this question inappropriate for whatever reason. Thank you.Peace be with you.
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Remember the Path is an individual one and you should not be limited by your people to reach the Light. It is not your people and that people, they are either following God's religion or not.
Hope you understand my short reminder.
God bless you
Hello @Man of Faith,
Thank you for your post.
I appreciate your (short) reminder hugely!
Those words are very important in my humble opinion, thank you.God bless you.
Peace and thank you.
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I think this is very interesting and an important problem that has to be solved.
We are so unbelivable divided over everything. Salat, Zakah, Khums (841), fasting/sawm, calender, hajj, halal food, ...
I have never seen anyone or anything which can be as divided and spread out as the people here, even though the Quran clearly says to hold strictly by God's rope and not to divide ourselves.
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Hi Man of Faith,
I agree. However in my interactions here with other free-minders it seems as though they wish to have a community which to rely on for support. These were just my thoughts in how to go about this. If people want to do their own thing then that is great. If people want a community, then they need some outlet for that.
How do I define a Jew? One who identifies with the Jewish people either through association or heritage.
No the Quranist movement isn't like Reform Judaism. I don't think it should be. However I was hoping that if this group wanted to form a community, they could look at how others were successful about forming theirs. Of course I would say that a Karaite Jew would be accepted whole heartedly in a Reform congregation. Reform basically says do what works best for you in keeping with tradition.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceI personally believe its way too early and how things will go is way beyond our ability to predict as this movement will grow and only God knows how it will evolve and develop. It is way too early for us to even to try to contemplate its path. We are in the end pioneers who are planting seeds for later generations to grow on. There will be no doubt many influences along the way. This movement will influence how the Islamic world will move forward and even the Jewish community. Historically the Jewish community were heavily influenced by development in the Islamic world. The rise of the Mutaziltes led to a rise in Karaite Judaism in the past. At one point Karaite Judaism represented 90% of the Jewish community. Today it has become marginal but might see a rise as the Quranist rise.
Reform Judaism suffers from the same problem Arab liberalism has. They do not have an alternative interpretation but what they have is a secular interpretation. They are both seen as unathentic by the respective communities. The Muslims see liberals as too Western influenced and followed by people who are not religious and many Jews see Reform Judaism as diaspora Judaism followed by many Jews who want to appear assimilated in non Jewish (Gentile) societies.
But anyways I think its way too early to determine how this Quranist persuasion will develop. Many will enter and there will be many influences and future events will shape many things. In the end however history has its own way of developing things often without the consent of man.
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I think this is very interesting and an important problem that has to be solved.
We are so unbelivable divided over everything. Salat, Zakah, Khums (841), fasting/sawm, calender, hajj, halal food, ...
I have never seen anyone or anything which can be as divided and spread out as the people here, even though the Quran clearly says to hold strictly by God's rope and not to divide ourselves.
Salaam wa'alaikum friends,
Maybe some things will be necessarily divided.
For instance, if you are a Muslim, you will agree that Salat is important. We may disagree, per our views, HOW to perform Salat, but I think WHAT Salat is and it's importance is a concept that is agreed upon.
Look at the Zakah per the Qur'an. In hadith, we are given an exact amount of wealth to give. In the Qur'an we are told to give however much we can spare. For each person this is going to be DIFFERENT. Really, if you think about it, giving the Zakah as per the Qur'an is a VERY personal test! It is not necessarily bad that it is different and personal. One thing that you and I will both agree upon is this giving Zakat, being charitable and good, is a virtuous thing!
Sometimes we may differ, but that doesn't mean that we are compromising our agreements over the central tenets of Islam. Maybe our belief that we need to agree on EVERYTHING and do everything exactly alike is an antiquated one that we should challenge.
And at the end of the day, if you are a Muslim, no matter HOW you practice your prayers and giving the alms and hajj, you and I will both stand face to face, join hands and say "There is no God but Allah!" and I believe THAT is the most important tenet of this faith to hold on firmly to.
Just a thought!
Edit And to the OP, you mentioned getting together in person. I agree with that. I think also though that many people who hold these ideas unfortunately live in parts of the world where doing such a thing would put them and their families into danger sadly. I consider myself lucky to live in the USA where I can state my beliefs in relative peace. I've been wondering if I should reach out to others in my city to form some kind of forum... I don't think we should branch out to a different "sect", Islam is Islam imo, but a safe space for people to bring their ideas and find comfort in one another's physical presence would be nice. You'd be amazed how many people share some of our views and just need an outlet that is safe and free of judgment. And you know if I'm involved in a group, there is gonna be yummy food AND good ideas!
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Hi Everyone,
Peachy you are 100% on point. This is excellent. We need more people who are interested in embracing the differences so that we can come together.
Andantino, the reason Jews reject Jesus is that he didn't complete the mission of the messiah. The messiah is supposed to install a king in Jerusalem and there will be peace and more importantly, the whole world will realize the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d and worship him. Don't get hung up on the details of exactly who they were looking for. But you should see that we don't have world peace and not everyone agrees that the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d. As for Muhammad??? There is no consistent response to him. My personal opinion is that Jews don't accept Muhammed as a prophet since the Rabbis "closed the door to prophecy" right after Jesus. However they dated it before Jesus so that he couldn't be a prophet.
I think that Muhammed is a prophet who is teaching the same message that preceding prophets taught. Since I was raised as a Reform Jew I have problems with Hadith just like I have problems with Talmud. I don't like people telling me what to believe/behave and then judging me on it. With that said... I agree with a lot of Hadith and Talmud. I just don't consider it binding. To me the Hadith shows me how people have approached understanding the Quran. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. But understanding how people have thought about it adds color and flavor to the way I understand it, even when I disagree with them.
For example... To me the prohibition on music is insane. It is sooooo derived that it is impossible to believe that Allah doesn't want us to listen to music. I understand where the prohibition came from and how someone could arrive at that conclusion. I just do a sanity check (which I never claim to be sane) and it doesn't pass.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Andantino, the reason Jews reject Jesus is that he didn't complete the mission of the messiah. The messiah is supposed to install a king in Jerusalem and there will be peace and more importantly, the whole world will realize the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d and worship him. Don't get hung up on the details of exactly who they were looking for. But you should see that we don't have world peace and not everyone agrees that the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d. As for Muhammad??? There is no consistent response to him. My personal opinion is that Jews don't accept Muhammed as a prophet since the Rabbis "closed the door to prophecy" right after Jesus. However they dated it before Jesus so that he couldn't be a prophet.
Some Jews (infact most Jews) LOVE Jesus during Jesus lifetime, the guy along with his cousin was a superstar rock duo, a celebrity in his time.
Afterwards the 'authority' kicks in and launch a negative propaganda against them..Thus the statement of "Jews reject Jesus" (and his cousin John on the backing vocals) is NOT a correct statement.
RABBANICAL JUDAISM reject Jesus and John
That's more correct statement.The same goes with Muhammad..
As a Jew you should by now understand that the Quran is a JEWISH BOOK WRITTEN IN ARABIC LANGUAGE.
With so many tales on Moses, Solomon, David and other Jewish figures, it doesn't take a genius to conclude that the book was written with Jews as the main audience.In the same manner if you read a book which told many tales about Guan Yu, Liu Bei, Confucius, Lao Tse written in English.
You'll definitely say that it is a CHINESE BOOK WRITTEN IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE.Thus the statement of "Jews do not accept Muhammad" is not correct either.
RABBANICAL JUDAISM reject Muhammad
That's more correct statement.Salam / Peace
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Andantino, the reason Jews reject Jesus is that he didn't complete the mission of the messiah. The messiah is supposed to install a king in Jerusalem and there will be peace and more importantly, the whole world will realize the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d and worship him. Don't get hung up on the details of exactly who they were looking for. But you should see that we don't have world peace and not everyone agrees that the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d. As for Muhammad??? There is no consistent response to him. My personal opinion is that Jews don't accept Muhammed as a prophet since the Rabbis "closed the door to prophecy" right after Jesus. However they dated it before Jesus so that he couldn't be a prophet.
where can i find the criteria of Messiah according to Judaism?
Old testament? or Talmud?As for Prophet Muhammad, i thought messiah in judaism should've been a Solomon's descendant, therefore, the messiah should be a Jew, and Prophet Muhammad isn't a jew as far as i know.
about Jesus, is there any judaism book stated that Jesus taught people that he is a God himself? i mean during his lifetime
i heard from Christians that Trinity itself has been described in old testament, how you as a jew (Reformed one) see that argument? is it true that Trinity has a basis EVEN A LITTLE in OT?I think that Muhammed is a prophet who is teaching the same message that preceding prophets taught. Since I was raised as a Reform Jew I have problems with Hadith just like I have problems with Talmud. I don't like people telling me what to believe/behave and then judging me on it. With that said... I agree with a lot of Hadith and Talmud. I just don't consider it binding. To me the Hadith shows me how people have approached understanding the Quran. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. But understanding how people have thought about it adds color and flavor to the way I understand it, even when I disagree with them.
For example... To me the prohibition on music is insane. It is sooooo derived that it is impossible to believe that Allah doesn't want us to listen to music. I understand where the prohibition came from and how someone could arrive at that conclusion. I just do a sanity check (which I never claim to be sane) and it doesn't pass.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceto be honest, currently i have problem not only with hadith, i also have problem with all three abrahamic holy book, and yes, its include the Quran. Although i still believe and convinced that the Quran is the most "Clean" book compared with any other 2 (clean from hijackery).
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Hi Everyone,
Jafar... I agree with most of what you say. Rabbinic Judaism doesn't accept Jesus nor Muhammed. However since the fall of the Temple in 60CE Rabbinic Judaism is pretty much all that is left. Yes there are a few groups here or there that are not Rabbinically based. But they are very few and very limited.
I don't believe the Quran was written for Jews. I believe it was written for everyone. Just like I think the Torah was written for everyone. I think many Jews today can't get past the media hype against Islam. Otherwise I would imagine they would get along fine with muslims. They are essentially the same religion. Minor difference that people seem to amplify. They take a small crack and turn it into a canyon.
Andantino... Go see Jewfaq.org. That is a good resource to understand a lot of the Jewish point of view. Remember not ALL Jews feel this way. But it is a starting point.
Trinity in Torah... No way. The main prayer in Judaism is the "Shema" which is basically... "Hear O'Israel Adonai is your G-d, Adonai is One". The unity of G-d is imperative. Same as Islam.
I have issues with the Torah and NT. Hadith bother me because they are unverifiable. However the Quran is the most clean of all of the scriptures.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace