Learning from modern jewish history....to go forward.
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Hi Everyone,
First off I love the discussion on this site. There is an amazing variety of discussion and that is what is motivating this topic. I also would like to say that I am a Jew, who if conditions were right could see converting to Quran Alone.
My discussion topic....
I think this group could learn a lot from modern Jewish history. In Judaism there is the reform movement which is a liberal movement. This history of the reform movement sounds very close to this movement in Islam. What can you learn from the reform Jews?
1.) Be egalitarian!!
Originally the reform Jews rejected all the orthodox laws and even ate shrimp (non-kosher) at their kick off dinner. They treated the orthodox Jews as backwards and antiquated. They argued a lot about what was the right way to pray, kosher laws etc.
Where is the reform movement now? They take the approach of here is the Torah and its commentary Talmud. Try to do what is meaningful that connects you to God. If keeping kosher is meaningful then do it. I keep kosher the way I understand kosher versus the way the rabbi's understand it. And in a reform congregation that is ok.
So I would propose that this group take the same approach. Say here is the Quran and hadith. Consider what is in the Quran and hadith be critical on how you should apply it to your life and use it to connect to God. If one person says there are 5 prayers a day and another who says there are 3 then that should be ok with both of them. The one who prays 5 times a day is doing it because it connects him with God and the other does it 3 times a day because that connects him with God. One lady may wear hijab and another lady may not. It needs to be ok with both of them.
Allow all thoughts and expressions of Islam to be explored in the community so long as it is respectful to the others. If Sunni and Shia want to pray with you then by all means let them.
If you were to attend services at two different reform congregations you would have two very different experiences as each congregation does what connects them to God.
2.) Organise!!
The reform movement in Judaism has three rabbinic schools in the US alone. You need to have organised Imam training. This could easily be done online. The training should allow the person to help organize and energize the community. They could meet twice a year for a meetings and have the rest of the training online. The Imam must be knowledgeable in all Islamic traditions and can guide people to what is comfortable for them.
In addition to organizing with an infrastructure of Imams you also need to organize on college campuses. Most large universities in the US have muslim student associations. Imams should go there and hold friday prayer services and Quran studies. The college campuses have a strong notion of exploring ideas. Students are easily motivated and willing to work for a cause for free.
Develop a real support network for Quran Alone Muslims. I know the internet is very anonymous, but phone trees and regular get together are essential to build that network.
There seems to be several different Quran Alone, Quranists, etc groups out there. Pull them all together into a common organisation. If you are egalitarian this should be easy.
It may be better to start the movement in a country like the US and Canada as there is no state sponsored religion or movement. Focus efforts into developing the movement. Get a time line. Select "kick off cities" where you start it and spread out from there.
Use the talents of people who are interested to move things forward.
3.) Advertise and Invite!!
Being a reform Jew I can tell you that there are many "seekers" in the US. People convert to reform Judaism all the time soley because they want a relationship with God and are confused by Christianity. How do people know where to show up? Advertising. Run ads in the newspaper or where ever you can advertise. People are searching for God and if they think you will be accepting of them as they are then that only spreads a positive attitude.
4.) Get a name!!
There are loads of different groups as mentioned above. Make sure you have a common name so you can advertise. How about Egalitarian (What ever the arabic word for this is)?
Just some thoughts that could help this group become more than it is.
Peace. Shalom. Salam.
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Welcome to the forum JD and thanks for the thoughts. Def something to think about more so because it's not a type of "religion" on offer but more like a way of thinking I suppose.
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Salm JD,
Welcome.
If I may add my 2 cents worth...
The movement being propogated here isa return to Islam bsed on the Quran as theonly legitimate source of law. In Judaism, this would be akin to the "Karaite" movement wo reject all external teachings outside the Torah rather than liberal Judaism which seems to be neither here nor there.
Are our doors open for people of all faith and denominations? Absolutely. We embrace all those who come with the foundation of peace. However, we will not compromise nor change what we understand to be the teachings of God, and therefore, inevitably, we will always be in a clash and strugle with the established systems who will find a Quran a true threat to their ways of existence and their exploitations of their fellow man and woman. In Egypt we have already seen mass arrestes of the Mulsim who adhere to the Quran alone who were preaching nothing but peacefulness...
But, we continue and we stay true - and the end is always for the believers.
Regards,
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I am trying to start a dialogue with this post. There are some really good ideas here but how do you make them reality? That is my approach. I think you do need some sort of strong organisation in order to make this successful. I know people don't like to have rules from people telling them what to do but people do need to know things. Such as what are the pillars if any? What are major sins? How do people do Shahada? What about Zakat? How do people pray? Someone needs to give some clear options that help one know what to do. Remember I would imagine you would have loads of seekers show up. How do you tell them what they need to do? Maybe there is a thread on this somewhere.
From a Jewish perspective the Karaites reside in many reform congregations. The advantage of an egalitarian approach is that all sorts of people can come in. Also in Egypt if people are being prosecuted then launch the movement in a country where there is protection for all faiths. And once the movement is up and running it can branch out to other areas.
Peace, Shalom, Salam.
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Yes I have read the Quran. I find it a quite amazing document. I am very impressed with it.
But people still need some rituals/steps for guidance. People need to be able to agree that these are good ways to pray. Maybe not give a specific thing that says "this is the way to do it" but maybe a range of options for people to go on, especially when they are just beginning.
Organisation will help the Quran alone movement be successful.
Peace, Shalom, Salam
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Hi JD and welcome to the forum. I my self was interested quite recently in liberal Islam, but now the Quranist Islam will do just fine without the liberal tag to go with it. Reason I say this is because I find full on liberal Islam to be deviating from the message of the Quran.
I am all for treating everyone fairly since that is my understanding of the Quranic/Islamic teachings. If the Quran was not like that than I would have problems calling my self a muslim.
I think it is important that we live a life that God alone wants from us and no one else.
Thanks
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I know people don't like to have rules from people telling them what to do but people do need to know things. Such as what are the pillars if any? What are major sins? How do people do Shahada? What about Zakat? How do people pray? Someone needs to give some clear options that help one know what to do. Remember I would imagine you would have loads of seekers show up. How do you tell them what they need to do? Maybe there is a thread on this somewhere.
Welcome JD, are you a jew or a sunnis? LOL
Never mind the questions, there are a lot of similarity between "Jewish" and "Sunnis" (Or other sectarian groups) way of thinking.
It's also understandable since they're live nearly close by.. in fact they're neighbor..They all have tendency to make a fuss over something which does not matter.. (how to pray, what to say in prayer, how about the beard, should we shave the beard or not, should we shave all of the beard or leave some on the cheeks, how about the clothes? the tzitzit.. etc.. etc.. etc..)
Mind you that (most people) on 'the group' here doesn't intend to start a new sect..
From a Jewish perspective the Karaites reside in many reform congregations. The advantage of an egalitarian approach is that all sorts of people can come in. Also in Egypt if people are being prosecuted then launch the movement in a country where there is protection for all faiths. And once the movement is up and running it can branch out to other areas.
We're egalitarians.. we promote egalitarian core values..
We're not sectarian, we're secular..
We're not dogmatic, we're tolerant..
We discourages blind faith, we're promoting fair reasoning.
We discourages threatening and physical conflicts, we're promoting discussion..If you want to read / study the Quran during your celebration of Rosh Hashanah or Sabbath feel free to do so!
If you invite me to your Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur celebration to discuss (or just have some fun) I will gladly come!Salam / Shalom / Peace
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Hello JD,
I am trying to start a dialogue with this post. There are some really good ideas here but how do you make them reality? That is my approach. I think you do need some sort of strong organisation in order to make this successful. I know people don't like to have rules from people telling them what to do but people do need to know things. Such as what are the pillars if any? What are major sins? How do people do Shahada? What about Zakat? How do people pray? Someone needs to give some clear options that help one know what to do. Remember I would imagine you would have loads of seekers show up. How do you tell them what they need to do? Maybe there is a thread on this somewhere.
Brother, personally, I am not interested in making a new sect and I am happy to be remain a Muslim, inshaAllah.
About the pillars that you are talking, everybody has to study and follow what/where Allah guides him. InshaAllah, by doing this, one will be ON the correct path. Then he can proceed further by Allah's help/permission.
2856
2856 You cannot guide whom you love. But it is Allah who guides whom He wills; and He is fully aware of those who receive the guidance.7178
7178 Whoever Allah guides, then he is the guided one; and whoever He misguides, then these are the losers.2120
2120 Neither the Jews nor the Nazarenes will be pleased with you until you follow their creed. Say The guidance is the guidance of Allah. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then there is none who can help or protect you against Allah.May Allah guide us all towards the Correct path.
Mohammed M. Khan -
People coming in to learn about QA have the same questions regardless of which sect, we can see the examples on this forum. If you're coming in from a liberal/atheistic/agnostic background, you have a different set of questions and so on according to what you know etc. I can understand the points raised by the OP as being something that would quicken the momentum of a "group" but at the same time we need to understand that the mindset/way of thinking to get somewhere is extremely important. This is the core issue...this is what we need to sell if nothing else. And the good part is that it is universally practical/useful even if someone decides "religion" is not for them etc.
I come from a sunni background, but I never really discarded thinking/logic/reasoning throughout...this made me a "moderate"; a liberal if you will. Now obviously some think that these labels mean ignoring/doing away with/twisting part of the quran to make it more palatable...and sure, it might be true in a lot of cases if one doesn't want to go further. Who remembers picking up conventional translations and going whoa at the women beating verse? What did I do? Honestly, I didn't think it was right and put it away from my mind and being a teenager at the time clearly meant I had better things to do than ponder upon weird stuff that everyone else said stood true, and I couldn't really question anything because I didn't have any "religious" training and once I talked and read more it would all somehow make sense. Or it would be a case of separating logic/reasoning from faith which actually equates to operating on a purely emotional level. Thinking need not apply.
Now, if I had the internet back then, well I did but it was used for downloading metallica off of napster not searching for religious stuff but anyways, if I had this website it would be awesome...if I had a support network around me, it would be awesomer, if I had a community that actively met and did good stuff around the world it would be even awesomer...so I can understand the attempt to want to have something that will spread through the world like a plague of locusts and stuff. I would love it. The thing is...which happens in every group, the mechanics often come down to actives and passives. We will always have the passives, those are the majority everywhere in any group that has a following. The actives need to do stuff right, make it as universal as possible, as basic as possible for unification purposes. The con to this is the inherent downside of splinter groups who will get more specific and will set themselves apart. The thing is, if one wants to turn the tide, you need to spread yourself...sitting on islands is not going to do the trick. You can have this website on the internets but having groups that are well organised and if they stick to the basics like mentioned, it would be relatively easier to grow and spread.
What I wanted to say, and instead rambled on about various things going on in my mind while reading the thread is that these passives will have trivial questions. People in general love trivia, they love gossip, they love stories and how to cut their fingernails the right way...you can't get rid of this desire. What you can do is offer an alternative that will stick to the basics of say god alone and allow for individual quirks...the basics have to address the issues that are universally accepted like human rights, education, charity and so on for example while letting them poach their eggs dancing around it widdershins if they so choose. The key is good fruitful growth that will not hinder/harm others but is actually geared to helping and not a lot in a group will be the end all be all geniuses who do/think everything the right way. At the end of the day, if there's a group out there using the universal principles in the quran but individually they have different opinions on different verses, I don't care really. It's a losing battle to think everyone will think the same way, might as well factor that in before it's even an issue which it will be thus the bypass to basics and leaving the specifics to the individual.
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I hear what everyone is saying and I see now where you are coming from.
I am not saying make a new sect. I am saying is that a Quran Alone group is a phenomenal idea. From an outside perspective it is a way to unify various people among many sects. Don't separate yourselves by welcoming everyone. However you all are free thinkers who have thought through many ideas and give people a forum in which to debate these ideas. What I am talking about a movement (not a sect) that seeks to train people to be free thinkers. But sometimes to be able to think freely you need several options to choose from. As soon as one sees there are many acceptable ways to pray, then they will be very interested in thinking of other ways. Furthermore it shows them that there isn't just one acceptable way.
I mean if you don't want to have a movement that could transform peoples lives increase their faith and do real social justice then thats fine with me. Just wanted to let you know it has been done before with Reform movement in Judaism. And it started with people just like you.
Peace, Shalom, Salam
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I don't know much about the reform movement in Judaism but I agree with you in general, it's essentially what I've been saying. Peace.
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That is just one aspect mmkhan, we're discussing others as well.
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What I wanted to say, and instead rambled on about various things going on in my mind while reading the thread is that these passives will have trivial questions. People in general love trivia, they love gossip, they love stories and how to cut their fingernails the right way...you can't get rid of this desire. What you can do is offer an alternative that will stick to the basics of say god alone and allow for individual quirks...the basics have to address the issues that are universally accepted like human rights, education, charity and so on for example while letting them poach their eggs dancing around it widdershins if they so choose. The key is good fruitful growth that will not hinder/harm others but is actually geared to helping and not a lot in a group will be the end all be all geniuses who do/think everything the right way. At the end of the day, if there's a group out there using the universal principles in the quran but individually they have different opinions on different verses, I don't care really. It's a losing battle to think everyone will think the same way, might as well factor that in before it's even an issue which it will be thus the bypass to basics and leaving the specifics to the individual.
Fully agreed. Honestly, unity is overrated. It needs to be said. Agree on the basics, and leave the details up to individuals.
There's a fine line between unity and groupthink.
Nothing wrong with difference of opinion.
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. -- 4913
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I think what JewishDude has set out above is a smart and perceptive strategy; one which is pragmatic and within probable reach.
I would like to make 3 points
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Structure. I have always associated a Quran-alone way of life with an unorganised and dispersed network of adherents. By "unorganised," I do not mean "lacking the skills of organisation," rather, I mean a lack of centralisation. This is primarily because we have no central religious figurehead. We study the Quran for ourselves, and we implement it for ourselves; hence a need for neither centralisation, nor congregation. As for propagation, I have always imagined each one of us playing their part to propagate the Quran's message; personally, this is what I have been doing for the past 10 years. I use appropriate circumstances and suitable opportunities in conversation to discuss the Quran's message with anyone. What we currently have is a sort of anarcho-Quranism, where the focus is on individual work; this form of organisation (or lack thereof) has its limits, and is inherently incapable of serving a community-level role.
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Support. As our numbers increase, by the grace of God, we must begin to pay regard to the needs of new-comers whom will undoubtedly need support. Their needs, be it social or ideological, are, for the most part, only truly satisfied by community-level services. Not forgetting, that a pronounced and manifestly publicized community presence of a Quran-alone centre or support network, will surely arouse an investigation by curious minds about the Quran-alone way of life. Something similar has already been established by the Submitters of Tuscon, Arizona. They, along with Dr Khalifa, established United Submitters International. They currently have chapters in the States, London, Paris, Nigeria, and many others. I have attended one of their meetings and it focused solely on Quran study. I love those guys and I consider them my brethren; I felt a warm sense of belonging and brotherhood when I sat with them. But I think they lack a key element which JewishDude emphasised, alas, it is egalitarianism.
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Scope. As JewishDude mentioned, egalitarianism is key. Inclusivity is the spirit of equality. I think most members of this forum, and Quran-alone people in general, are reasonably tolerant of even the most extreme views. We have God to thank for making us a "middle" community. In any community, being able to tolerate the disparity of beliefs, religious or otherwise, is key to the durability of co-operation and to the strength of unity, "E pluribus unum."
For the time being, our community exists in cyberspace. This website, and similar websites, offer support to new-comers and help us in our dialogue and in the exchange of our ideas. It has gone a long way to bring us all together into a sort of pseudo-community, for that I am thankful to the administrator's of this site, and I am ever thankful to God.
Perhaps we are still at the stage of infantile growth, and the flowering season has not yet come upon us, so we have found no reason to organise.
Still, perhaps in the coming years the demographics will change substantially, this thread is a heads-up for that time.
Thanks to Jewishdude for this thread, his input is greatly valued.
Usamah
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Salaam,
Another prominent problem is that we are so spread out all over the world.
We should not be so divided, there is only one Message. It is mainly the Salat that divides us, even if that should not be a big issue. We should keep in our minds that God's religion is pretty "easy", only three fundamental criteria
- Believe in God alone
- Believe in the Hereafter
- Be a righteous person
The other details in the Quran are recommendations for a peaceful life and to be able to fulfill criteria no. 3.
At least I felt less lonely when I was able to turn my wife to the light side.
God bless you
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Hi Everyone,
First off I love the discussion on this site. There is an amazing variety of discussion and that is what is motivating this topic. I also would like to say that I am a Jew, who if conditions were right could see converting to Quran Alone.
Just some thoughts that could help this group become more than it is.
Peace. Shalom. Salam.
How do you define a Jew?
Anyways the Quranist movement is not the same a reform Judaism. Its more like Karaite Judaism. Reform Judaism in my mind has failed. Kind of like how Arab liberalism is failing.
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Salaam Jewish Dude,
Remember the Path is an individual one and you should not be limited by your people to reach the Light. It is not your people and that people, they are either following God's religion or not.
Hope you understand my short reminder.
God bless you
