Traditional Sunni Challenge to Quranities

progod

Peace,

We are to perfom the hajj using the rituals al-'umrah. Hajj is the visit to house to perfrom al-umrah.

It can be seen in the hadeeth and in the Quran that the umrah at the hajj is no more than the above quote from lisaanul-arab 'All of the umrah is to circle the house and to go between safaa and marwah. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest of what we should do there besides umrah and going during the months for it are quite detailed in the Quran. No more no less than what is already there in the Quran. Zakaat means purity or betterment in Classical Arabic and in the Quran, not the contrived theological meaning of a poor tax. If you mean zakaat in the from of our giving saduqah then we are to give what we do not need and to give to our family, the one in the street and those in need. The Quran uses the term al-'afwu. There is no defined percent or amount. That is the Quran, whether you like it or not. 2.5 percent may be a good suggested amount but some people can afford much more than this, some people cannot even spare to give this.

Godbless,
Anwar

Isa

Peace,

It is clear that this is going nowhere. I came for answers and honestly feel that they are not being addressed. I hope the ayat speak for themselves, not some gross mistranslation. Here I have seen one claim following the Prophet is shirk, another lie about the meaning of Kalam Allah, and other saddening things. I am leaving this discussion as it is spiritually dead. Reading around I have seen that many in this forum don't even prostrate to Allah! Those that think consuming alcohol is fine, etc.

Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance! Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one. Where are your scholars?

I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!

CavemanDoctor

Peace,

It is clear that this is going nowhere. I came for answers and honestly feel that they are not being addressed. I hope the ayat speak for themselves, not some gross mistranslation. Here I have seen one claim following the Prophet is shirk, another lie about the meaning of Kalam Allah, and other saddening things. I am leaving this discussion as it is spiritually dead. Reading around I have seen that many in this forum don't even prostrate to Allah! Those that think consuming alcohol is fine, etc.

Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance! Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one. Where are your scholars?

I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!

Sounds good. Good luck in all your endeavors.

Wakas

peace Isa,

Your questions came across as ill-thought, illogical and disingenuous, and that was even before I read you say "No linking other posts and sites either please."

I recommend the search function.

Failing that, please state your 5 strongest objections.

Mutazilaah

Asalaamu alaykum

Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?

Brother Isa, I have studied formally under Salafi, Hanafi and Shia-Jafari scholars. Have you studied Kalam from the lens of the Mutakallimeen? Or are you void of this knowledge?

Proof of this is Salah and Hajj and Zakat.

But not all believe that the Salah or Hajj are what you believe it to be. As I said before, the Kaaba, black stone, the devil's statue you stone, the way you shave your head and wear the ihram cloth, all of that is not from the Qur'an, it is from the Sunni Ahadith. These rituals are never given by Allah (swt) nor does Allah (swt) require these rituals for the Hajj to be complete. Hajj is simply a spiritual journey that involves brotherhood, unity, spirituality and wisdom. Salah is simply a form of meditation, worship and prayer. It is not limited to the Sunnah. Ibrahim (as) observed the Salat, but I seriously doubt that he (as) followed the rituals we find in Ahadith, where one goes up and down multiple times repeating words in Arabic, as if this process is all what Salat is. The spirit of the Salat as I said before is to connect with God and could involve simply sajood and no other posture if one wanted. It just you are so fixated on Islam being what the Ahadith describe instead of what the Qur'an says. If Allah (swt) Himself did not tell us how to pray, why should there be a question of 'how' in the first place? Shouldn't you just invoke God? Pray what's in your heart? If Allah (swt) tells you to make the pilgrimage, wouldn't it be to simply experience the brotherhood and discipline and wisdom found in that city? Or is the purpose of Hajj to perform specific rituals that God accepts?

And does one need to know how much to give for Zakat? Can't one just give what makes sense? No matter how much or how little it is, as long as its sincerely from the heart and makes sense to the person financially. If the Quran is not putting limits on what Salah or Hajj and Zakat is, then why are you?

In this ayah, Allah (swt) teaches the Believer to do wudhu

56 O ye who believe! when you stand up for Prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and pass your wet hands over your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you be unclean, purify yourselves by bathing. And if you are ill or you are on a journey while unclean, or one of you comes from the privy or you have touched women, and you find not water, betake yourselves to pure dust and wipe therewith your faces and your hands. Allah desires not that He should place you in a difficulty, but He desires to purify you and to complete His favour upon you, so that you may be grateful.

How is it that Allah (swt) can teach us how to purify ourselves with ablution but not teach us how to pray in the Quran? And yet other brothers and sisters have shared many verses like these

Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?

And yet you claim that the book is not fully detailed because the details of how to pray or make the pilgrimage are not in the Quran?

My questions that I still would like an answer to are

Do you agree that the Mu'tazilah and Jahmiyyah were schools of thought that predate any Hadith collection and that they were Quran only Muslims even after the Sunni Muhaditheen collected their Ahadith?

Also according to 'our' ahadith he gave permission for it to be documented. How can you use an evidence that you don't understand?

Where in the Sunni Ahadith does it say the Prophet (sa) gave permission for his sayings or actions to be documented? I am aware of ahadith that say 'follow the sunnah', but none to his companions instructing them to document ahadith. I am not sure that the Ahadith instruct Muslims to indefinitely mimic his ways either ... does following 'tradition' mean to mimic his every move?

Wasalaam,

Farhan

Mushu

The next ayat continues with what exactly Allah has expounded

With all due respect... fail.

112 "That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news."

Note the - from Him. The 'fussilat' is from Him, the good news is from Him and so is the warning.

The Sunnah covers particulars that need clarifying.

Which is the crux of the issue. You refuse to ponder on these verses

1689 The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.

638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned

It seems you disbelieve in the above verses. Allah says He clarifies the quran and He left nothing out of it. Yet your claim is that there are details missing.

I must say that, although I admire your (all of you) dedication to the Qur'an, I lament your abandoning the Prophet and his Sunnah. No points raised here have convinced me that I should abandon the great blessings that are contained in the Sunnah.

That's fine, but I hope you're not under the impression that your arguments were any good. I believe this comment here pretty much sums up what the problem is

Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?

Nothing from the above originates from the quran. And that is your problem.

sonnie

Will all due respect Isa, forget about the search button, please learn to use the computer before beginning to type. Also, you lack common debate etiquette.

May the greatest teacher guide us all )
Salam

Leyna

Also, you lack common debate etiquette.

Indeed.
I always find it interesting that those who claim to be more pious / guided / knowledgeable than others are often not willing or able to engage in a discussion properly, intelligently and with good manners. hmm

harris

Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance!

Salaam,
Like most muslims out there, you too are making the same mistake. You believe Allah's path is always that which the majority follow. I've got news for u from the Holy Quraan.

Satan said, "Since You have honored him over me, if You respite me till the Day of Resurrection, I will possess ALL HIS DESCENDANTS, EXCEPT A FEW."

Tat should clear your mind. If not, you could read some more clarifying suras...

Allah's true submitters & believers have always been a minority throughout history. (12103-106)
Only 'TWO' believers where there in the whole community of Moses (520-26)
Only 'ONE' house of believers in the whole community of Lot (5132-36)
Only 'FEW' believers among the disciples of Jesus (352)

Hopefully in future, you won't judge believers based on their numbers.

I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!

Congratulations. Before you party regarding the "connection", please keep the sura in mind where the Prophet will sever all connections

"My Lord, MY PEOPLE have deserted this Quran."

Good luck.

Layth

Dear Issa,

I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!

Why ask questions when you are not ready to face the answers that they may bring?

This thread is yours...yet, as soon as some people took your questions seriously, you backed off saying you are leaving and will stick to following he ways of polytheism that are guaranteed to admit you to Hell

If you want to seriously disucuss the teachings of God and His peophet...Then this is the place.

If you want to find sheep who will follow th sheperds that will lead them to Hell...Then you are indeed in the wrong place.

P.S. Don't get too excited in following the decendants of the Prophet, for, not only did God ensure that his progeny ended with him (Prophet did not have any sons) - but also, the examples of the evil and vile creatures who claim to be affiliated to the prophet from the Shite Turbans to the turncoat kings who murder people for the throne leaves much to be desired!

nsws1988

Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!

rotfl wow you're so arrogant. one can only laugh. good luck on worshipping your forefathers. There are so many verses in the Quran to quote from that talk about people who only follow their fathers that I don't know which to choose from. Well you would only reject them anyway and tell me 'do you even know Arabic', which I do btw.

Anyway, we've all done our bit here and gave you verses to look at. The only reason you don't have answers is because they're no the answers you're looking for.

antibhondo

@Mutazilaah (Farhan) and everyone,
Assalamu Alaikum.

Why would Allah mention the Messenger if we should only follow the Qur'an? <

Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc. They served their purpose. His duty was but to deliver the message, to deliver the warning, and he (sa) did.

You are right, Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.
but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???

Allah did it only in the case of Muhammad (SM).

1-a) Allah's command to follow Muhammad (sm) is so strict that HE tagged our love for him with whether we follow Muhammad (sm) {{331 Say, "If you love God then follow me so God will love you and forgive your sins." God is Forgiver, Compassionate.}}---Translated by Edip-Layth.

This ayat indicates that if we do not follow Muhammad (sm), then that will make the meaning that WE DO NOT LOVE ALLAH. In other words, If we say that we love Allah, but do not follow Muhammad (sm), then our "love" is not real love, and will not be granted to Allah.

1-b) Moreover, Allah made it a condition for guidance {{2454>> If you obey him, you will be guided}}. The indication is clear. If you do not follow Muhammad (sm), you will not be guided.

Is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., whom Allah has commanded us to follow? And is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., with whom Allah has tagged His love, or guidance ?

In some ayats, you are right, Allah told Muhammad (SM) to deliver the message only {{320>>but if they turn away, then you are only to deliver}}, or {{599>>The only duty of the messenger is to deliver}}

but
there are some ayats which clearly indicates the necessity of an explanation of the ayats mentioned just above. Some of them are
2-a) 2454 Say ?Obey God, and obey the messenger.? But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.

Please, listen, I am not talking about {{If you obey him, you will be guided}}.

I am talking about the last portion of the ayat, The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.

His duty will not be accomplished only by delivering the message like a BIRD THAT CAN TALK, he also has to make the message clear.

2-b) Another ayat that brings the issue in the same manner
1644 With clear signs ( ) and Books (&#1616 (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (&#1614(the Quran), that you may explain clearly (&#1614 to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

2-c) Let us discuss a portion of an end note, in this context, provided in Quran A Reformist Translation by Edip-Layth.

Edip-Layth - End Note 7 (1644)
The Arabic word BaYaNa means (1) explain an ambiguous message; or (2) declare a
hidden message. This multiple-meaning verse is one of the most abused verses by
the followers of hadith hearsay. They choose the first meaning. Their rendering,
however, contradicts many verses of the Quran the Quran is explained not by
Muhammad, but by its author, God Himself (7519). Thus it is described as a
"clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), and we are reminded over and
over that it is "easy to understand" (5417,22,32,40). Thus, the second alternative
is the intended meaning, since the Quran was received by Muhammad in a private
session called revelation, and his job was to deliver and declare the message he
received. God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to
him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers (1635).
Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells
us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the
people, and never conceal it." See 2159,160; 3187 and 1664. For a comparative
discussion on verse 1644, see the Sample Comparisons section in the Introduction.
The Quran is simple to understand (5411). _____________________________________________________________________

2-c-i) This explanation is very nice to read. But I have got another verse, 1682, where, the translation given by Edip-Layth is 1682 So if they turn away, then you are only required to deliver clearly.

confused confused confused

And another ayath translated by Edip-Layth,

confused confused confused confused confused confused

2-c-ii) It seems that Quran A Reformist Translation itself has used the first meaning without sensing any contradiction with any other verses of Quran.

2-c-iii) Actually, there is no contradiction in using the first meaning of the Arabic word BaYaNa.
Let me explain.

About contradiction with 7519 (Then it is for Us to clarify it), and "clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), easy to understand (5417,22,32,40)

This ayats mean that Allah has explained the Quran by demonstrating the whole quran in the real life of a human, who is like us. So, when this "human" is doing something in front of the people as to complying with the "WAHY" of Allah, this becomes a "making clear" thing for those people. In this way, Allah has cleared and explained everything of Quran, and Muhammad (SM) has made clear, ofcourse with the continuous guidance of Allah.

So both are correct. Allah has explained the ayats by implementing the ayats in the real life of a human, who is like us.. And Muhammad (sm) has explained the ayats by complying with the WAHY under continuous guidance of Allah.

About contradiction with the ayath 5411

In the End Note 7 (1644) by Edip-Lath regarding the Ayath 1644, Edip-Layth says that {{The Quran is simple to understand (5411)}}
But what does 5411 say? 5411 So We opened the gates of the sky with pouring water.

hmm; I don't know what he meant by that.

Summary

Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc. but Allah commanded to follow ONLY MUHAMMAD (SM). NO ONE ELSE. Allah's love and guidance are conditionally tagged with following only Muhammad (sm).
Allah told Muhammad (SM) to deliver the message only and make them clear. Or, in other words, Allah told Muhammad (SM) to clearly deliver the message. See the translation of Edip-Layth of the ayaths 1682, and 592.

And, most importantly, there is no contradiction of "the command of delivering message clearly or making the message clear" with 7519 (Then it is for Us to clarify it), "clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), or easy to understand (5417,22,32,40).

Slam to all.

Mushu

Saalam,

but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???

Allah did it only in the case of Muhammad (SM).

368 The closest people to Abraham are those who followed him, this prophet, and those who acknowledged; and God is the ally of those who acknowledge.

16123 Then We inspired to you "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."

1-a) Allah's command to follow Muhammad (sm) is so strict that HE tagged our love for him with whether we follow Muhammad (sm) {{331 Say, "If you love God then follow me so God will love you and forgive your sins." God is Forgiver, Compassionate.}}---Translated by Edip-Layth.

This ayat indicates that if we do not follow Muhammad (sm), then that will make the meaning that WE DO NOT LOVE ALLAH. In other words, If we say that we love Allah, but do not follow Muhammad (sm), then our "love" is not real love, and will not be granted to Allah.

Correct. No one disputes this. The problem is that you believe Muhammad taught something other than the quran which you are required to follow. We follow exactly what he gave us the kitab.

1-b) Moreover, Allah made it a condition for guidance {{2454>> If you obey him, you will be guided}}. The indication is clear. If you do not follow Muhammad (sm), you will not be guided.

And what was the prophet commanding?

548 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

549 You should rule among them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins. Indeed, many among the people are corrupt.

Is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., whom Allah has commanded us to follow? And is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., with whom Allah has tagged His love, or guidance ?

You are trying to insinuate a point that's simply not there in the quran. You are commanded to follow Muhammad because he had the message. What's wrong, do you not like the message he came with? Is there something wrong with it?

but
there are some ayats which clearly indicates the necessity of an explanation of the ayats mentioned just above. Some of them are
2-a) 2454 Say ?Obey God, and obey the messenger.? But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.

Please, listen, I am not talking about {{If you obey him, you will be guided}}.

I am talking about the last portion of the ayat, The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.

The message is clear. Unless you're claiming the quran is unclear? Be open and admit it and don't beat around the bush. Tell us 2454 is saying that the quran is not clear so the prophet was commanded to make it clear.

Actually, you've admitted it here

This ayats mean that Allah has explained the Quran by demonstrating the whole quran in the real life of a human, who is like us. So, when this "human" is doing something in front of the people as to complying with the "WAHY" of Allah, this becomes a "making clear" thing for those people. In this way, Allah has cleared and explained everything of Quran, and Muhammad (SM) has made clear, ofcourse with the continuous guidance of Allah.

And, most importantly, there is no contradiction of "the command of delivering message clearly or making the message clear" with 7519 (Then it is for Us to clarify it), "clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), or easy to understand (5417,22,32,40).

Your tafsir is conjecture from your own mind. You wish to complicate a very simple message. You've managed to manufacture a contradiction and resolve it with another contradiction. The messenger was commanded to deliver the message clearly. The clarity was given by Allah.

Observe

6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Note the word mufassal.

111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.

Note the word fussilat.

Is the quran muffasal? Yes. Who was the one that did fussilat of it? Allah.

Any clarity provided by the Prophet was not his own. He clarfied the quran with the quran.

antibhondo

Saalam,

368 The closest people to Abraham are those who followed him, this prophet, and those who acknowledged; and God is the ally of those who acknowledge.

16123 Then We inspired to you "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."

Salam. Was this in reply to my question {{but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???}}???

It, however, astonished me. Please show me the command to us to follow Abraham. Is this a COMMAND for you to follow?

Please try to understand, is this a command that you must follow??? "To follow Muhammad (sm)" is a direct order. And with that order was tagged the question of whether you love Allah (and subsequently Allah loves you), and whether you shall get guidance.

There is no other Prophet or Messenger whom you have been commanded to follow, and with whom your guidance and love for Allah is related.

Correct. No one disputes this. The problem is that you believe Muhammad taught something other than the quran which you are required to follow. We follow exactly what he gave us the kitab.

Brother, imagine the period when the ayath of following Muhammad (sm) was revealed. The ayats were already written, and already memorized by the Sahabas. In this time, Allah is revealing, that, they have to follow Muhammad (sm). And observe carefully the language
a) 331 Say, If you love God then follow me so God will love you and forgive your sins
b) 2454 If you obey him, you will be guided
c) 480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God

Suppose, you are one of the Sahaba. What would you do in reply to these ayats? Look at your comment

You are trying to insinuate a point that's simply not there in the quran. You are commanded to follow Muhammad because he had the message. What's wrong, do you not like the message he came with? Is there something wrong with it?

The message is clear. Unless you're claiming the quran is unclear? Be open and admit it and don't beat around the bush. Tell us 2454 is saying that the quran is not clear so the prophet was commanded to make it clear.

If you were a Sahabi, then a question was very easy to be raised Why HIM? Why not quran? You are Arab by born (letting that you are a Sahabi), why should you be commanded to follow someone else who is just a human? and since quran is very simple to understand, why are you not commanded to follow just-Quran?

I am asking you the same question now. Please you cogitate for the answer. I can help you with some indication Quran itself is not actually clear. Allah has made the Ayaths clear by implementing the Ayats in the life of Muhammad (sm). So, associated with the life of Muhammad (sm), the Ayaths are offcourse clear.

I repeat...The Ayats are clear only when these are associated with the life of Muhammad (sm). That's why Allah says
2454 If you obey him, you will be guided
480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God

A further discussion on your following comment

Correct. No one disputes this. The problem is that you believe Muhammad taught something other than the quran which you are required to follow. We follow exactly what he gave us the kitab.

Actually, this is what I can derive from Quran. Let me explain
2-a) You know the ayat
7203>> Say, "I only follow what is inspired to me (&#1609 from my Lord.
So, whatever Muhammad (sm) did was the result of following WAHY.

2-b) For your kind information, there is no ayat that states that Muhammad (sm) was bounded to follow nothing other than QURAN. Yes, he was bounded to follow nothing other than WAHY, according to the ayath 7203.

If you can prove that WAHY=QURAN, only then can you say that {{Muhammad (sm) was bounded to follow only Quran, and nothing other than that}}. But, can you prove that?

But I can prove the reverse thing. I mean, I can prove that WAHY is not equal to QURAN.

Let me explain.....
2-b-i) 2456 Hold the contact prayer (Salat) and contribute towards betterment(Zakat), and obey the messenger, that you may attain mercy.

There is no detailed description of Salat (for example) in the Quran. You admit that.

Now, whatever the actual meaning of Salat be, Muhammad (sm) must have obeyed the Ayath.
But while obeying the command related to the Salat, Muhammad (sm) must have done something. Quran does not contain any description about Salat. But please be informed that Muhammad (sm) cannot do anything other than permission from Allah. So, Allah must have told him something about how to perform the "Salat", but that is not included in the Quran.
(You can derive many many example like this if you think. But will you think?)
Now, check whether I am right, WAHY=QURAN+Something not included in the QURAN.
So, It is proved that WAHY is not equal to QURAN.

Now go to the Ayat that commands to follow Muhammad (sm). Now it means that
Following Muhammad (sm)
= Following WAHY
= Following (QURAN+Something not included in the QURAN)
= Following QURAN+ Following something not included in the Quran
If Allah says that you must obey the messenger to get Allah's love (in return of your love for Allah) and Guidance, HE actually says that you must follow Muhammad (sm) in full, comprising of What he gave to us as a book, and what he did and said, not included in the QURAN.

Did anybody/any ayath say that there is no WAHY other than QURAN?
But, see, common sense logic says that there must be some thing not included in the QURAN.

But, is it only common sense that say such thing? Isn't there any ayath that can confirm us about this?

Please continue reading

2-b-ii)
Translated by Muhammad Asad
87 And, lo, God gave you the promise ( ) that one of the two hosts would fall to you and you would have liked to seize the less powerful one, whereas it was God's will to prove the truth to be true in accordance with His words, and to wipe out the last remnant of those who denied the truth.

Here, is an time-adverb clearly indicating a promise by Allah given in some past. My point is nowhere in the QURAN will you get any sign of this promise. It means that this promise was given by Allah through WAHY (of course), which was not included in the QURAN.

2-b-iii)
Translated by Edip-Layth
89 You implored your Lord and He answered you "I will provide you with one thousand angels as defenders."

It means at some point of time, Allah answered to a the Messenger's request. That answer must have been in as an WAHY. But that particular answer was not recorded in the QURAN. This ayat is recalling the past event. Nowhere in the QURAN shall you get any other ayat containing the answer.

It means a very simple thing, that is, Muhammad (sm) received WAHY, aportion of which was not included in the QURAN.

2-b-iv)
Translated by Rashad Khalifa
663
The prophet had trusted some of his wives with a certain statement, then one of them spread it, and GOD let him know about it. He then informed his wife of part of the issue, and disregarded part. She asked him, "Who informed you of this?" He said, "I was informed by the Omniscient, Most Cognizant."

The WAHY through which Muhammad (sm) was informed by Allah was not recorded in the QURAN. Now Allah is just making him recall the past event.

All these ayats indicate clearly that Muhammad (sm) received some WAHY that is not recorded in the QURAN. It means that Muhammad (sm) received some WAHY other than QURAN. The portion of WAHY not included in the QURAN must includes the guidance from Allah regarding various Hukums of Allah that are not elaborately described in the QURAN.

Now go to the Ayat that commands to follow Muhammad (sm). Now it means that
Following Muhammad (sm)
= Following WAHY
= Following (QURAN+Something not included in the QURAN)
= Following QURAN+ Following something not included in the Quran
If Allah says that you must obey the messenger to get Allah's love (in return of your love for Allah) and Guidance, HE actually says that you must follow Muhammad (sm) in full, comprising of What he gave to us as a book, and what he did and said (as guided by Allah, see 7203), not included in the QURAN.

Observe

6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Note the word mufassal.

111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.

Note the word fussilat.

Is the quran muffasal? Yes. Who was the one that did fussilat of it? Allah.

Any clarity provided by the Prophet was not his own. He clarfied the quran with the quran.

I agree with you. But can you tell me where did you get the point {{He clarfied the quran with the quran.}}

If you say that it is ONLY ALLAH who can detail the quran perfectly through WAHY. Yes, of course. I agree. And I just say and already proved that not all the WAHY was included in the QURAN and that the expounding of the QURAN was in the real life of Muhammad (sm). That's why Allah, again and again telling us to follow the messenger.

Please, provide me one, JUST one ayat that clearly says that {{He clarfied the quran with the quran.}}

Wakas

From http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

482 - anything from God will not have contradiction/inconsistency/variance. This also applies to our understanding as well. If we formulate a correct interpretation of The Quran, we will find that everything falls into place. This is one of the most crucial criteria.

734-5 - in order to receive a weighty or profound word or saying, we need to arrange the likenesses in The Quran, e.g. cross-reference concepts/words/topics.

123, 1854, 1789, 7176, 12111 - look to its internal examples, stories within it give us lessons, it is a clarification for all things.

251, 2185, 6114-115 - it is the criterion with which to determine/judge.

3927-29 - variance rejected, no crookedness, one consistent source is the preference.

Say "Indeed, I do not possess for you harm nor right-guidance."

Leyna

You are right, Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.
but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???

"And authenticating what is between my hands of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was made unlawful to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me."
350 (referring to Jesus)

And when Jesus came with the proofs, he said "I have come to you with the wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. So be aware of God and obey me."
4363

When their brother Noah said to them "Will you not be righteous?"
"I am to you a trustworthy messenger."
"So be aware of God and obey me."
26106-108

For their brother Hud said to them "Will you not be righteous?"
"I am to you a clear messenger."
"So be aware of God and obey me."
26124-126

For their brother Saleh said to them "Will you not be righteous?"
"I am to you a clear messenger."
"So be aware of God and obey me."
26142-144

For their brother Lot said to them "Will you not be righteous?"
"I am to you a trustworthy messenger."
"So be aware of God and obey me."
26161-163

For Shuayb said to them "Will you not be righteous?"
"I am to you a trustworthy messenger."
"So be aware of God and obey me."
26177-179

We have sent Noah to his people "Warn your people before a painful retribution comes to them."
He said "My people, I am to you a clear warner."
"That you shall serve God and be aware of Him and obey me."
711-3

Say "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."
12136

Mushu

Quran itself is not actually clear.

Thank you. There is nothing more for us to discuss.

1096

antibhondo

Thank you. There is nothing more for us to discuss.

1096

Dear brother

You quoted my only one small quotation from my whole speech
Quran itself is not actually clear.

Did you miss the word "itself"?

Can a text itself be clear, if Allah himself does not make it clear?

Allah has made it clear and easy to understand. See 515; 121; 26195; 446
Muhammad (sm) has made it clear. See 1682 and 592 (traslation of Edip-Layth)

I just tried to find a possible explanation of the clearing process of both Allah and Muhammad (sm). Why both Allah and Muhammad (sm)?

My explanation is that

This ayats mean that Allah has explained the Quran by demonstrating the whole quran in the real life of a human, who is like us. (See 7203 where Muhammad (sm) was directed by Allah to say that he was bounded to follow only the WAHY.) So, when this "human" is doing something in front of the people as to complying with the "WAHY" of Allah, this becomes a "making clear" thing for those people. In this way, Allah has cleared and explained everything of Quran, and Muhammad (SM) has made clear, ofcourse with the continuous guidance of Allah.

So both are correct. Allah has explained the ayats by implementing the ayats in the real life of a human, who is like us.. And Muhammad (sm) has explained the ayats by complying with the WAHY under continuous guidance of Allah.

Thank you very much. Don't you have anything else to say, or to refute my other points, brother Mushu?

Salam to all.

antibhondo

Leyna and others
Asslamu Alaikum.

First of all, I thank you for mentioning these ayats. I feel grateful to you for this. But I think some ayats related to these ayats have been missing. Pleaes allow me to fill-up the gaps.

"And authenticating what is between my hands of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was made unlawful to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me."
350 (referring to Jesus)

If you do not read the ayat 349, you will miss something very important.

349
Translated by Edip-Layth
As a messenger to the Children of Israel "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave, and I heal the blind and the lepers, and give life to the dead by God's leave, and I can tell you what you have eaten, and what you have stored in your homes. In that is a sign for you if you have acknowledged."

Please read carefully As a messenger to the Children of Israel...This is about Jesus. Read from 344. You will get that. So, Jesus was specifically sent for the Children of Israel.

So, when he said So be aware of God and obey me." (4363), it is clear that the order to follow Jesus was only for the Children of Israel.

When their brother Noah said to them "Will you not be righteous?" "I am to you a trustworthy messenger.""So be aware of God and obey me." 26106-108

Let us read the ayats starting with 26105

The people of Noah rejected the messengers. When their brother Noah said to them "Will you not be righteous?" "I am to you a trustworthy messenger.""So be aware of God and obey me." 26105-108

So, It was the people of Noah whom Noah told to obey him. So, the order to obey Noah was only to the people of Noah.

For their brother Hud said to them "Will you not be righteous?" "I am to you a clear messenger." "So be aware of God and obey me." 26124-126

Let us read the Ayats starting from 26123

Aad denied the messengers. For their brother Hud said to them "Will you not be righteous?" "I am to you a clear messenger." "So be aware of God and obey me." 26123-126

It means that it was the Aad people whom Hud told to follow him. The order to obey Hud was only for the people of Aad.

For their brother Saleh said to them "Will you not be righteous?" "I am to you a clear messenger." "So be aware of God and obey me." 26142-144

Please start reading the ayats from 26141, where Allah said Thamud denied the messengers.

The please continue reading.

For their brother Lot said to them "Will you not be righteous?" "I am to you a trustworthy messenger." "So be aware of God and obey me." 26161-163

Start reading this ayat from 26160, where Allah said The people of Lot denied the messengers. Then Allah mentioned that Lot "said to them" to obey him.

For Shuayb said to them "Will you not be righteous?" "I am to you a trustworthy messenger." "So be aware of God and obey me." 26177-179

You know what to do. Just read 26176 The dwellers of the Woods rejected the messengers.
And then you get the ayat that says, For Shuayb said to them... "to obey".

We have sent Noah to his people "Warn your people before a painful retribution comes to them."
He said "My people, I am to you a clear warner."
"That you shall serve God and be aware of Him and obey me."
711-3

There is no gap. Just I mention that, similar to our 2 no. point (26105-10, we see that, this ayats also picture that Noah was sent to his people. And so, the order to obey him is only for the people of Noah.

Now the main part of your comment

Say "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."12136

I think 12136 was wrongly posted. It should be 2136. Am I right?

I think, by this ayat, the point you tried to raise is evident in {{we do not make a distinction between any of them}}

Let us present the related ayats

8-a)
i) 2136
Translated by Edip-Layth
Say, "We acknowledge God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we peacefully surrender."

ii) 2253
Translated by Edip-Layth
Such messengers, We have preferred some to others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in ranks, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them acknowledged and some of them did not appreciate. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.

iii) 2285
Translated by Edip-Layth
The messenger acknowledges in what was sent down to him from his Lord and those who have acknowledged. All acknowledged God, His angels, His books, and His messengers, "We do not discriminate between any of His messengers;" and they said, "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."

iv) 384
Translated by Edip-Layth
Say, "We acknowledge God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses, Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not discriminate between them, and to Him we peacefully surrender."

v) 4150-152
Translated by Edip-Layth

150 Those who rejected God and His messengers, and they want to make a distinction between God and His messengers, and they say, "We acknowledge some and reject some!" ( &#1590 , and they desire to take a path in-between

151 These are the true ingrates; and We have prepared for the ingrates a humiliating retribution.

152 Those who acknowledge God and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them, We will give them their rewards. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

8-b)
My confusion at first glance of these ayats was What does "make a distinction" mean? Then one day I got the ayats 4150-152. These ayats indicate that the people who want to make a distinction between God and His messengers, they say---we acknowledge some and reject others. So I understood, making a distinction between messengers means believing/acknowledging some messengers, and rejecting the others.

So, the reverse thing is practiced by the people who do not make a distinction (=do not want to reject any, the expected behaviour from the believer). It means that I have to believe that every messenger is from Allah, and they have done exactly the same thing---delivering the message clearly to whom they were commanded by Allah to deliver. So, physically Isa and Jessus may be "DISTINCT", but actually they are not distinct in the sense of their duty.

Please do not confuse these with "following the messenger". Every people is required to follow the particular messenger whom Allah sent to them.

And please read the following ayats
7158 Say, "O people, I am God's messenger to you all. The One who has the sovereignty of heavens and earth, there is no god but He; He gives life and causes death." So acknowledge God and His gentile prophet, who acknowledges God and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.

8-c)
Now let us return to my that comment which you mentioned at the top

You are right, Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.
but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???

I am yet to get one, JUST one example where Allah commands us to follow the messengers other than Muhammad (sm).

AND I am still yet to get one, JUST one ayat that clearly says that {{He clarfied the quran with the quran.}}

quantum1

Peace readers,

Yes we have been asked to follow and obey the messenger in the quran.

When we follow another person like our fathers/families, friends, peers, imams etc we are following and obeying them not the messenger.

Anyone who follows another contemporary person and then says he/she is following and obeying the messenger is A LIAR

How do you know the messenger did or say exactly what the contemporary person is doing or saying?

The best/ideal way to follow and obey the messenger is by following and obeying him directly when he is our contemporary and alive. That is not possible nowadays because he is dead.

The second best way to follow and obey the messenger is by following and obeying the authentic message brought by him which in case of Muhammad is the quran.

That is the best way to follow and obey him nowadays when he is not contemporary/alive anymore.

Anyone who follows and obeys the hadeeth written 200 years after Muhammad by Bokhari and others and attributed to Muhammad, is not following and obeying the messenger but following and obeying Bokhari and others, because whatever they attribute to him is unverifiable hearsay.

Bokhari and others did not have the power to go to the graves of all the dead people in the chain of hadeeth narrators and bring them to life and verify if they actually said what was claimed.

Anyone who follows the so called "sunnah" transmitted from generation to generation supposedly, is not following and obeying the messenger but following and obeying his/her forefathers and contemporaries.

So how can we follow and obey the messenger now that he is dead?

The only way is to follow and obey his authentic hadeeth and follow his authentic "uswa"/example.

Where can we find this authentic hadeeth and this authentic uswa/example of Muhammad?

The only place obviously is the quran.

The quran is the authentic hadeeth of the messenger. It calls itself hadeeth. It is the hadeeth of the messenger because it is the "qawl" of the messenger. By following and obeying the quran we are following and obeying the messenger.

6940 This is the qawl/utterance of an honorable messenger.

The quran contains the authentic uswa/example of the messenger. By following the authentic uswa/example of the messenger contained in the quran we are following and obeying the messenger.

The "wahy"/inspiration other than the quran which was inspired to the messenger is impossible to be followed by us because it is not 100% preserved.

We do not even need to follow that "wahy"/inspiration to the messenger other than the quran because the quran says it is fully detailed and contains clarification of all things. Therefore it contains ALL the hadeeth of the messenger and ALL the uswa/example of the messenger necessary and relevant for our guidance, and to follow and obey the messenger.

In other words the quran is ENOUGH in order to follow and obey the messenger.

We are asked to follow the best of what was sent down from the god which is only the quran. The best hadeeth can only be one.

An author can write one main book and nine other smaller books. Then if the author says that the one main book contains all details and explanation of everything he/she wanted to communicate then there is no need to read or follow the other nine smaller books because they will be redundant and superfluous.

It is a logical fallacy to say that one has to follow ALL inspiration to the messenger when the main collection of inspirations to the messenger i.e. the quran itself says it is fully detailed, contains clarification of all things, is the best hadeeth, and is enough.

2951 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book that is being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

Anyone who does not accept the ayaat of the god is a REJECTOR AND LIAR

3923 God has sent down the best hadeeth, a Book that is fully consistent within itself, repeating. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.

3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.

6155 And this is a Book that We have sent down which is blessed, so follow it and be aware, that you may receive mercy

2849 Say Then bring forth a book from God that is better than them in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.