Sighting of the stars as the marker for the evening-prayer instead of sunset?
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Peace,
5249 And of the night glorify Him and after the stars.
To be mindful during the night; specific start/end daytime and nighttime precisely defined at sunset and dawn.
(The Sun)
911-4
and/by the sun and its brightness
and/by the moon when it follows it (the sun)
and/by the day when it displays it (the sun)
and/by the night when it covers it (the sun) -
Salaam
Thank you for your answer, it can be helpful.
It is clear that a very detailed reading is required. I found on www.quranix.net the following translations of the verses considered
Edip-Layth 5249 Also during the night glorify Him, and at the setting of the stars.
The Monotheist Group 5249 Also from the night glorify Him, and at the fading of the stars.
Muhammad Asad 5249 and extol His glory at night, and at the time when the stars retreat.
Rashad Khalifa 5249 Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as the stars fade away.
Shabbir Ahmed 5249 And even at night do your best to manifest His praise, and at the setting of the stars.
Transliteration 5249 Wamina allayli fasabbihhu wa-idbaraalnnujoomiThe translations here show that the dynamical process of decreasing of the sight of the number of stars is relevant - so probably not the moment after the stars.
Edip-Layth 911 By the Sun and its brightness.
The Monotheist Group 911 By the Sun and its brightness.
Muhammad Asad 911 consider the sun and its radiant brightness,
Rashad Khalifa 911 By the sun and its brightness.
Shabbir Ahmed 911 Witness is the Sun and its radiant splendor.
Transliteration 911 Waalshshamsi waduhahaEdip-Layth 912 The Moon that comes after it.
The Monotheist Group 912 And the Moon that comes after it.
Muhammad Asad 912 and the moon as it reflects the sun!1
Rashad Khalifa 912 The moon that follows it.
Shabbir Ahmed 912 And the Moon that borrows its light.
Transliteration 912 Waalqamari itha talahaEdip-Layth 913 The day which reveals.
The Monotheist Group 913 And the day which reveals.
Muhammad Asad 913 Consider the day as it reveals the world,2
Rashad Khalifa 913 The day that reveals.
Shabbir Ahmed 913 Witness is the day as it brightens the world.
Transliteration 913 Waalnnahari itha jallahaEdip-Layth 914 The night which covers.
The Monotheist Group 914 And the night which covers.
Muhammad Asad 914 and the night as it veils it darkly!
Rashad Khalifa 914 The night that covers.
Shabbir Ahmed 914 And the night that cloaks it.
Transliteration 914 Waallayli itha yaghshahaThe translators leave open the possibility of several interpretations 914 The night that covers (it), the covering can also refer to the covering of the daylight - nahari and not to the actual sunset, because the daylight is still there untill about 10-30 minutes after sunset, the merging-process of night into day.
Verse 2261 That is because God merges the night into the day, and He merges the day into the night ...
Transliteration Thalika bi-anna Allaha yoolijuallayla fee alnnahari wayooliju alnnaharafee allayli ...Merging is a gradual process, not sudden.
The sunset as border between daylight and night would not suffice because of the lack of merging-effect. Sunset is more a sudden local phenomena.
The process of merging of the night into the day could better be seen as related to the gradual appearance or fading away of the stars.Greetings
Truthseeker171 -
Peace,
Never completely dark; hunters moon, harvest moon, etc., and clear markers are at sunset and white thread at dawn.
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Types-of-twilight-en2.svg
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Salaam
The schedule above seems to miss two elements of the total picture
1 The timing of sunrise and sunset can differ very much within an area with hills and mountains. For instance it can vary up to more than an hour when one lives in a valley or on the slope of a mountain. The ability to see the stars would be a far more objective criterium.
2 Verse 2261 That is because God merges the night into the day, and He merges the day into the night ...
Merging is a gradual process, not sudden.
The sunset as the border between daylight and night would not suffice because of the lack of merging-effect. Sunset is more a sudden local phenomena.
The process of merging of the night into the day could better be seen as related to the gradual darkening of the sky after sunset, until the first stars can be seen. In my first posting I mentioned the fading away of the stars as part of the merging but I reconsidered this, I agree with you that it is seldom completely dark - so an obective criterium could be the appearance of the stars.In my opinion after sunset the merging-process starts the day being merged into the night, so a period after sunset it is neither day or night, but it is the merging-period of day and night. The objective ending of this merging would be the possible sighting of the first stars - then the actual -layl- night would be there, so the time for the aisha-prayer would start then and lasts until the stars can be seen to the maximum the ghasaqi el layl - verse 1778.
Greetings
Truthseeker171 -
Salaam
After more reading about this subject, following could be said
- The sighting of the stars is not the marker for the beginning of the time for the evening-prayer, it is rather the beginning of the gradual darkening of the sky - 3637.
- The fading away of the last stars is rather the marker of the end of the time for the morning-prayer - 5249.
Verse 11114 states that two prayertimes are related to the edges of the day and are actually during the adjacent parts of the night. So the evening-prayertime starts with the beginning of the night.
Verse 3637 states following A sign for them is the night, We withdraw the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.
This indicates that the start of the gradual darkening of the sky is the marker of the beginning of the night and thereby of the beginning of the time of the evening-prayer.
This is not connected to the moment of sunset, the gradual darkening of the sky is rather a while after the actual sunset. Then the darkening of the sky starts in the east and goes gradually to the west.
The gradual darkening of the sky as mentioned in verse 3637 is more objective than the sunset. The sunset varies in landscapes with mountains and valleys.
The end of the prayertime of the evening is according to verse 1778 the maximum darkening of the sky, when there is no white thread in the sky anymore as is compatible with verse 2187.The morning-prayer should according to verse 11114 be done during the adjacent part of the night as well.
The beginning of the prayertime of the morning is given in verse 2187, the moment that a thread of light can be seen in the dark sky, at dawn.
The end of this prayertime is not the sunrise. Verse 20130 states the moment before sunrise is a part of the day and not of the night.20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and from the early part of the night glorify, and at the edges of the day that you may be content.
From this verse we can learn that both the moment before sunrise and the moment before the utter -westening- of the sun -ghuroobiha- (probably the beginning of sunset) are not a part of the night.
So if the moment before sunrise is not a part of the night then the sunrise can not be the marker of the ending of the prayertime of the morning.
Within this context verse 5249 could be relevant.5249 Also during the night glorify Him, and (that is) at the setting of the stars.
The Arabic word -we- can be read as -plus- but also as -namely- or -and that is-.
The moment that the last stars fade away is about 30-40 minutes before sunrise during winter and this time-difference increases towards the summer, the distance from the equator is also relevant. This moment is farther from the rising of the sun and could be a part of the night as a contrast to the moment before sunrise that is a part of the day according to verse 20130.
For now I do not see another verse that indicates another marker for the ending of the night and thereby of the ending of the prayertime of the morning.Comments are welcome.
Truthseeker171
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-Follow up of last posting-
20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and from the early part of the night glorify, and at the edges of the day that you may be content.
From this verse we can learn that both the moment before sunrise and the moment before the utter -westening- of the sun -ghuroobiha- (probably the beginning of sunset) are not a part of the night.
So if the moment before sunrise is not a part of the night then the sunrise can not be the marker of the ending of the prayertime of the morning.
Within this context verse 5249 could be relevant.Verse 1886 seems to indicate that the wording -ghuroobiha- means the setting of the sun, to be precise - the actual moment that the sun starts to vanish gradually behind the horizon. Dhul Qarnain sees from his perspective that the sun sets in a dark water (probably the Black Sea). The Arabic word -fie- is used, so that means that the sun is already vanishing at the moment of -taghrubu-, setting of the sun.
1886 till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;and nearby he found a people . We said "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause to suffer or treat them with kindness!"
This means that according to verse 20130, the moment before the gradual vanishing of the sun behind the horizon, is a part of the day - Probably nobody would say otherwise, but it might be good to see the proof in the Quran.
Following about the timing of the evening- and morningprayer might be relevant
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Both the evening- and morningprayer should be done during both parts of the night that are adjacent to the day - verse 11114.
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The night starts a while after the actual sunset. Then the actual darkening of the sky starts in the east and goes gradually to the west - verse 3637. This verse suggest a gradual withdrawal of light from east to west, not a general diminishing of the light as can be seen from just before sunset.
So the prayertime of the evening (aisha) starts a while after sunset, when the gradual darkening of the sky begins.
This prayertime lasts until the maximum darkening of the sky - verse 1778, 2187. -
The prayertime of the morning (fadjr) starts according to verse 2187 at the moment that the white thread is visible in the sky - when the first rays of light are visible in the east. This moment of -fadjr- is still a part of the night.
This prayertimer ends before sunrise, according to verse 20130. The night ends before the moment of sunrise because verse 20130 states that the moment before sunrise is not a part of the night.
Verse 5249 might indicate the end of the night and thereby the end of the timing for -salat el fadjr-. The time when the stars are fading away - this starts from the moment of the first rays of light - 11114 and lasts until the last stars have vanished.
Verse 5249 uses the plural-form for stars of more than two. This implies that we should not confuse the stars with (the one or two) planets that are often longer visible.
Truthseeker171
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
Truthseeker171
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Salaam readers of the Koran,
I would like to read your opinion on followingFor the timing of the end of the prayertime of salaat fajr and the beginning of the prayertime of salaat aisha, the marker could be the fading-away of the last stars - for the morning-prayer and the appearing of the first stars - for the evening-prayer. Not the sunrise and sunset.
I do not know of a verse that mentions the actual sunset or sunrise as a criterium for the two borders between daylight-nahar and night-layl, as mentioned in verse 11114.
The timing of sunrise and sunset can differ very much within in an area with hills and mountains. For instance it can vary up to more than an hour when one lives in a valley or on the slope of a mountain. The ability to see the stars would be a far more objective criterium.Verse 5249 Also during the night glorify Him, and/that is at the setting of the stars.
Truthseeker171
Salam, Peace TS171
try to answer this question
How would people living in poles uphold the prescribed timed SALAT?Many system can be tested by testing the extremes, this will include automatically all in between. As you may know The Book of Truth is valid for all mankind for all the times.
Many verses state day is for work and night is for rest see 737, 2547, 2786, with the same logic and taking into account the extremes (north and south poles) does it mean when "period of darkness" or "period of daylight" you should work non-stop or rest non-stop? The answer is NO and naturally not, the rules are natural rules, you shoud uphold SALAT in the begining of the working day and at the end of the working day! That is my understanding.
Peace
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Salaam Herbman
try to answer this question
How would people living in poles uphold the prescribed timed SALAT?Many system can be tested by testing the extremes, this will include automatically all in between. As you may know The Book of Truth is valid for all mankind for all the times.
Many verses state day is for work and night is for rest see 737, 2547, 2786, with the same logic and taking into account the extremes (north and south poles) does it mean when "period of darkness" or "period of daylight" you should work non-stop or rest non-stop? The answer is NO and naturally not, the rules are natural rules, you shoud uphold SALAT in the begining of the working day and at the end of the working day! That is my understanding.
It is a good question to ask what the best solution is concerning the prayertimes if one lives in areas that have polar-nights, the same goes for astronauts on the International Space Station.
The basic-rule might be if one is able to follow the rulings of the Koran concerning for instance the prayertimes then one should follow them.
The prayertimes of dusk and dawn are clearly related to physical phenomena, not to social agreements like working-hours
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salat el aisha and salat el fadjr are during the two parts of the night, next to the edge of daylight - 11114
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the time of salat fadjr starts when the white thread can be seen (in the sky) - 2187
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the time of salat fadjr ends a moment before sunrise, probably when the last stars have vanished - 5249, 20130
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the time of salat el aisha begins with the beginning of the night, the gradual darkening of the sky, a while after sunset - 3637
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the time of salat el aisha ends at the moment of the maximum darkness of the night - 1778, 2187 (in reverse of fadjr)
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the time of the middle-prayer can be related to social agreements, moments of being together - 629, depending on the interpretation of the wording -doolooki as-shams- of verse 1778, this middle-prayer could be done from the moment that the shadows become longer after the noon-time.
The verses that you mentioned seem not to give a ruling that prayer-times are related to working-hours. They rather convey the message that the night is for resting or in case of the prophet for a vigil. And that the daylight part of the day is for seeing and getting up and being active.
Working-hours are not general valid - especially in the 24/7 economies, there seem to be more people unemployed or working in evening, morning- and night-shifts than living at the polar-regions. So one can hardly have a general ruling derived from the start and ending of working-hours.
For muslims who want to keep up with the prayertimes - the advice could be, avoid the places where one has difficulties to follow the rulings of the Koran - verse 497 tells the muslims to migrate in some cases.
At the other hand, verse 53 recognises the principle of circumstances beyond one's control. So one could use the time-tables of the adjacent area where the prayertimes can be followed according the rulings of the Koran.
It is for the conscience of the believers themselves to find his/her way between these possibilities.Truthseeker 171
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salaam Herbman
Salam,
The prayertimes of dusk and dawn are clearly related to physical phenomena, not to social agreements like working-hours
- salat el aisha and salat el fajr are during the two parts of the night, next to the edge of daylight - 11114
True but let me quote these definitions from Lanes
fajr
He clave, ; cut, or ply sins, and to pospone repntance or to say I
divided, lengthwli e this is the primary signification- will repent at a future time. (TA.) - He did,
nifihcation, whence several others, to be mentioned or committed, an action indu,i 5 doubt, or susbelow,
are derived= Ayn-Shiin-Waw
to feed the evening mealWhat I mean is these "salat" can be timed with the morning meal and night meal, which bring all the familly together at a fixed time.
2187 refer to the morning meal and yes it has a clear "end" for that particular meal during Ramadhan
- the time of salat fadjr starts when the white thread can be seen (in the sky) - 2187
This verse is about fasting, but yes fajr is defined in the verse.
- the time of salat fadjr ends a moment before sunrise, probably when the last stars have vanished - 5249, 20130
I am ok with the definition of Fadjr, my questionning is Can it be flexible depending on situation or not.
I believe for fasting there is no room (verse 2187)--> no way to fast if you do not witness the moon! but for salat it could be some flexibility --> you can uphold salat living in the poles.- the time of salat el aisha begins with the beginning of the night, the gradual darkening of the sky, a while after sunset - 3637
- the time of salat el aisha ends at the moment of the maximum darkness of the night - 1778, 2187 (in reverse of fadjr)
again and you said it yourself this is not a sudden event, it is a gradual process and very difficult to say where it starts and where it ends. There should be a good reason for that!
- the time of the middle-prayer can be related to social agreements, moments of being together - 629, depending on the interpretation of the wording -doolooki as-shams- of verse 1778, this middle-prayer could be done from the moment that the shadows become longer after the noon-time.
The verses that you mentioned seem not to give a ruling that prayer-times are related to working-hours. They rather convey the message that the night is for resting or in case of the prophet for a vigil. And that the daylight part of the day is for seeing and getting up and being active.
Working-hours are not general valid - especially in the 24/7 economies, there seem to be more people unemployed or working in evening, morning- and night-shifts than living at the polar-regions. So one can hardly have a general ruling derived from the start and ending of working-hours.
For muslims who want to keep up with the prayertimes - the advice could be, avoid the places where one has difficulties to follow the rulings of the Koran - verse 497 tells the muslims to migrate in some cases.
At the other hand, verse 53 recognises the principle of circumstances beyond one's control. So one could use the time-tables of the adjacent area where the prayertimes can be followed according the rulings of the Koran.
It is for the conscience of the believers themselves to find his/her way between these possibilities.Truthseeker 171
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
I do not agree on the middle prayer.
Please see our discussion here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0Peace
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Salaam
True but let me quote these definitions from Lanes
fajr
He clave, ; cut, or ply sins, and to pospone repntance or to say I
divided, lengthwli e this is the primary signification- will repent at a future time. (TA.) - He did,
nifihcation, whence several others, to be mentioned or committed, an action indu,i 5 doubt, or susbelow,
are derived= Ayn-Shiin-Waw
to feed the evening mealWhat I mean is these "salat" can be timed with the morning meal and night meal, which bring all the familly together at a fixed time.
2187 refer to the morning meal and yes it has a clear "end" for that particular meal during Ramadhan
4103 - And when you have finished your prayer, remember God - standing and sitting and lying down; and when you are once again secure, observe your prayers. Verily, for all believers prayer is indeed a sacred duty linked to particular times. -
According to this verse there is a direct linkage between the ritual salaat and a schedule regarding the prayertimes, those prayertimes are given by the Koran.
There seems not to be any other subject relevant, as working-hours or meals.
Verse 2187 states in case of fasting, that eating and drinking is allowed during the night until before the start of -fadjr-.
The timing of the morning-prayer is from the beginning of -fadjr- and lasts until a moment before sunsise - problably the moment of vanishing of the last stars - 2187, 5249, 20130.
So here might be a disconnection between eating and praying, also because the communal fast lasts only the full moon of ramadan (three days) and the prayer should be done every day. For the evening-meal during fasting-days and the evening-prayer there is the same timing. But I do not see this meal as a condition to do the evening-prayer - that is just the timing of -aisha- itself.This verse is about fasting, but yes fajr is defined in the verse.
I am ok with the definition of Fadjr, my questionning is Can it be flexible depending on situation or not.
I believe for fasting there is no room (verse 2187)--> no way to fast if you do not witness the moon! but for salat it could be some flexibility --> you can uphold salat living in the poles.
again and you said it yourself this is not a sudden event, it is a gradual process and very difficult to say where it starts and where it ends. There should be a good reason for that!I see the prayertimes as fixed by the Koran.
-Salat el fadjr- is during -fadjr-, the definition of -fadjr- is given by the Koran.
As is the case with the timing of the evening prayer. Depending on the distance to the equator - the timeframe of the evening-prayer can vary between about a half an hour and about two hours or more. But anyway the timing is fixed between certain physical phenomena the start of the gradual darkening of the sky, a while after sunset and the beginning of the maximum darkness.As for upholding the salat living in polar areas, I am not sure - I would advice, if possible, to move to places where one can live according to the rulings of the Koran - verse 497. People tend to move for lesser reasons.
But if one is really stranded there - the ruling of verse 53, circumstances beyond control, could be applied.Salaam
Truthseeker171Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salaam,
Many system can be tested by testing the extremes, this will include automatically all in between. As you may know The Book of Truth is valid for all mankind for all the times.
Many verses state day is for work and night is for rest see 737, 2547, 2786, with the same logic and taking into account the extremes (north and south poles) does it mean when "period of darkness" or "period of daylight" you should work non-stop or rest non-stop? The answer is NO and naturally not, the rules are natural rules, you shoud uphold SALAT in the begining of the working day and at the end of the working day! That is my understanding.
How about 'Saum' when Allah said
2187
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. Allah knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what Allah has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of Allah, so do not transgress them. It is thus that Allah clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.
We cannot change the meaning of 'Layl' to end of working hours. It clearly means that if they could fast till night then ok otherwise they should leave that place, that place is not for the followers of Allah's commands, cause it is for everyone who believes.
And I agree with truthseeker171 when he said
Working-hours are not general valid - especially in the 24/7 economies, there seem to be more people unemployed or working in evening, morning- and night-shifts than living at the polar-regions. So one can hardly have a general ruling derived from the start and ending of working-hours.
For muslims who want to keep up with the prayertimes - the advice could be, avoid the places where one has difficulties to follow the rulings of the Koran - verse 497 tells the muslims to migrate in some cases.
At the other hand, verse 53 recognises the principle of circumstances beyond one's control. So one could use the time-tables of the adjacent area where the prayertimes can be followed according the rulings of the Koran.
It is for the conscience of the believers themselves to find his/her way between these possibilities.Please look at 497-98 below
497
498497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said What situation were you in? They said We were oppressed on the earth. They said Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it? To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
498 Except for those who were oppressed from the men, women, and children who could not devise a plan nor could be guided to a way.May Allah protect us all and guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salam, Peace, mmkhan, ts171, all,
Don't get me wrong, I did not mean to have salat at the meals time. What I meant it was a good opportunity to have it at these time because all familly members are together.
What I meant is FAJR could mean "day break" e.g. when you wake up.Please help understanding this verse
2458
O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.Would it mean if I pray fajr at 4 am like many northern countries do, I cannot go back and sleep with my wife, cause any one (from my familly) can enter my room as per 2458?
Peace
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Salaam brother herbman,
Please help understanding this verse
2458
O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.Would it mean if I pray fajr at 4 am like many northern countries do, I cannot go back and sleep with my wife, cause any one (from my familly) can enter my room as per 2458?
Why you pray at 4am until it matches the time of fajr shown in 2187? If, your time of fajr as per 2187 is at 4 am then why you want to go back and sleep with your wife? Where it is said in 2458 that go for sleep with your wives after Salaat AlFajr?
The three times mentioned in there are private times so permission is needed for those who are mentioned in 2458.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam brother herbman,
Why you pray at 4am until it matches the time of fajr shown in 2187? If, your time of fajr as per 2187 is at 4 am then why you want to go back and sleep with your wife? Where it is said in 2458 that go for sleep with your wives after Salaat AlFajr?
The three times mentioned in there are private times so permission is needed for those who are mentioned in 2458.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. KhanPeace,
in many countries salat al fajr is so early that you need to go back to bed after the prayer to finish your sleep.
peace
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Salaam brother,
Peace,
in many countries salat al fajr is so early that you need to go back to bed after the prayer to finish your sleep.
peace
I did not get your point, can you please explain further, but please do read my prev post before you reply.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam Herbman
Don't get me wrong, I did not mean to have salat at the meals time. What I meant it was a good opportunity to have it at these time because all familly members are together.
What I meant is FAJR could mean "day break" e.g. when you wake up.Please help understanding this verse
2458
O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.Would it mean if I pray fajr at 4 am like many northern countries do, I cannot go back and sleep with my wife, cause any one (from my familly) can enter my room as per 2458?
This verse states that permission has to be asked by for instance young children to enter the room where one sleeps or changes clothes before the morning- and after the evening-prayer and probably before the midday rest.
One can go back to sleep after the morning prayer, the only ruling is that before the morning-prayer permission has to be asked - as standard. Outside these times, the younger children seem to be more free in getting in and out the sleeping-room - but the parents can ask or demand privacy any time of the day as might be needed, the Koran does not forbid this.
Verse 2459 states that the older children should ask permission - as standard, to enter the sleeping-room or an area of privacy, at all times.Salaam
Truthseeker171Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salaam Herbman
This verse states that permission has to be asked by for instance young children to enter the room where one sleeps or changes clothes before the morning- and after the evening-prayer and probably before the midday rest.
One can go back to sleep after the morning prayer, the only ruling is that before the morning-prayer permission has to be asked - as standard. Outside these times, the younger children seem to be more free in getting in and out the sleeping-room - but the parents can ask or demand privacy any time of the day as might be needed, the Koran does not forbid this.
Verse 2459 states that the older children should ask permission - as standard, to enter the sleeping-room or an area of privacy, at all times.Salaam
Truthseeker171Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
Salam,
I well understand the verse thanks. I was inviting you for reasoning. By this verse fajr beeing at 4 am or 6 am, after that salat "privacy" is not garanteed because after fajr you are not meant to go sleep again!!!!!
Peace
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Salaam
Verse 2458 could be seen as one of the verses that has partly a geographical context - high temperatures during daytime and relative late dawn and early dusk.
Within a community in such an area, it would be normal to stay awake after the morning-prayer, to go asleep after the evening-prayer and to rest during the hours when the temperature is most high.
Especially when there is no electricity for light or airconditioning - it would be the best way of living - to be able to work during the hours of the day that are bearable and have sunlight and to rest during the hours that have a too high temperature, or that one can not see outside.For other circumstances - for instance with early -fadjr- and a bearable temperature at midday - the Koran seems to forbid nothing.
One does not have to rest during the middle of the day or one can easily go to bed again after the morning-prayer to avoid sleep deprivation.
One is free to make rules in the house that support a household with people who have slept well and enough, within the context of the Koranic rulings.Salaam
Truthseeker171Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.