All Knowing/Preordination/Free Choice
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peace,
- God exists
- God is All Knowing in an Absolute Way, meaning God knew what I was going to say in this thread before I did it in an Absolute Way meaning it couldn't have happened any other way then how God knew it would happen, meaning everything just as what I am saying in this thread is preordained
- It seems clear as day in the Quran that we have free choice, to be exact I think the Quran supports we have the freedom to make whatever decision we want but the outcome is predetermined, preordination/destiny/fate whatever you like to call it directly contradicts this, it also contradicts heaven/hell or any kind of punishment from God among other things because we are merely going through acts He predetermined for us to do
so to get rid of this seemingly contradiction I believe we would have to negate two things, either that God knows all, or that knowing all means preordination/predetermination/destiny/fate
P.S.-this is purely research related, I am not professing that I disbelieve in God or in the Quran or in heaven/hell, I am merely trying to get some views on God's omniscience and free choice, this seeming paradox has been bugging me lately but will in no way make me reject, I try to have patience
peace
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Peace,
God knowing all does not take away from your free choice.
As per your example, it's one thing that God knew what you were going to say and another for you to have the choice to say and think the way you are.
When God says everything is per His will, it means that everything is planned according to His will...knowing which people will make the wrong/right choices come what may, is according to His will in the long run. Does that take away from the choices an individual makes, or can make in a particular scenario?
Another thing, there are only a set number of outcomes, and a set number of choices. But those choices are free to decide/choose and those outcomes are controlled by free choice decisions.
Why are those two contradicting? Also how do you define preordained?
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Peace Idris,
One way I am learning how to reconcile the apparent contradiction is in consideration of time and space.
I don't want to to get too deep so I'll keep it short to maintain focus.
We "live" in the realm of time and space. There is no escaping it. All things in the universe are bound by these concepts, hence, all is decaying, according to Allah's plan. This is a linear movement, set into motion by Allah with the "Big-Bang".
Now, of course, Allah is not limited by time and space.
Picture this example
We are living characters in a book. We make decisions on a daily basis and are forced to live one page at a time. Allah, on the other hand, sees the entire book at the same time. If you or I could be outside of time and space, we could flip ahead a few chapters, or flip backwards, or witness the present. It's all there. But for the characters in the book, they have to live out their decisions.
If we take it a step further, imagine that the book is dynamic. Every decision made changes the entire future of all interactions. Yet at any moment, you can flip forward and see where the characters are headed, although this direction can be avoided, for better or worse, by future decisions. And still, at any given moment, all is known by Allah.
Of course, this is not a perfect analogy as it has many holes, but I think it paints a nice picture of our limitations and of Allah's infinity. It also avoids predestiny while allowing for omni-presence.
Hope it helps you in your study, and I hope you'll share what you discover.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Idris,
If God is All-knowing, then It knows what I am going to drink tonight. For example, if It knew I was going to drink water tonight, could I chose juice instead? If yes, then I have free will, however, God, then, would not be All-Knowing. If I can't choose differently than what God knew, then God is All-Knowing, but then I have no free will.
Sara
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peace, Nadia
God knowing all does not take away from your free choice.
As per your example, it's one thing that God knew what you were going to say and another for you to have the choice to say and think the way you are.
I agree but God knows all in an absolute way, so before I was created He knew everything I would do right? do I have choice to act outside of what He already 100% absolutely knew would happen in my life? the major error I can see in this argument is that its restricting God to a certain period of time but it seems like according to that verse 1,000 years to you is one day to God that God has some sort of time, or maybe its allegorical
When God says everything is per His will, it means that everything is planned according to His will...
I know, according to His laws I've always thought was a better translation
knowing which people will make the wrong/right choices come what may, is according to His will in the long run.
yeah His laws, his law of cause and effect, law of recompense (reward), and law of requital (punishment)<---what i said here has basically nothing to do with the discussion though so just ignore it
Does that take away from the choices an individual makes, or can make in a particular scenario?
nope, but its quite possible the fact that God knew absolutely what choice a person makes (i.e. the wrong path) before that person is created because of the fact that the person can't choose outside of what God 100% absolutely knew before his creation might
Another thing, there are only a set number of outcomes, and a set number of choices. But those choices are free to decide/choose and those outcomes are controlled by free choice decisions.
I agree, I'm just trying to shake this paradox or my misunderstanding if I have any
Why are those two contradicting? Also how do you define preordained?
i think predetermination and free will are contradicting because (I'll explain in my definition) preordained-I mean predetermined, in the context of the talk I mean an action/choice/outcome/etc. set in stone before a person/animal/etc. is created which the person/animal has no choice or decision to act outside of but unknowingly conforms to this predetermination under the illusion of free will, sometimes not under the illusion though
peace
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peace, Tay
Peace Idris,
One way I am learning how to reconcile the apparent contradiction is in consideration of time and space.
I don't want to to get too deep so I'll keep it short to maintain focus.
We "live" in the realm of time and space. There is no escaping it. All things in the universe are bound by these concepts, hence, all is decaying, according to Allah's plan. This is a linear movement, set into motion by Allah with the "Big-Bang".
Now, of course, Allah is not limited by time and space.
Picture this example
We are living characters in a book. We make decisions on a daily basis and are forced to live one page at a time. Allah, on the other hand, sees the entire book at the same time. If you or I could be outside of time and space, we could flip ahead a few chapters, or flip backwards, or witness the present. It's all there. But for the characters in the book, they have to live out their decisions.
If we take it a step further, imagine that the book is dynamic. Every decision made changes the entire future of all interactions. Yet at any moment, you can flip forward and see where the characters are headed, although this direction can be avoided, for better or worse, by future decisions. And still, at any given moment, all is known by Allah.
Of course, this is not a perfect analogy as it has many holes, but I think it paints a nice picture of our limitations and of Allah's infinity. It also avoids predestiny while allowing for omni-presence.
Hope it helps you in your study, and I hope you'll share what you discover.
Peace,
Taythats actually a pretty good theory, the funny thing was is that I was actually looking back on some of your posts/replies on this subject and was hoping you'd reply to this thread to give me some insight, I have to wake up at 7 in the morn and I was trying to get to sleep not long ago but this question wouldn't let me sleep, I do believe this is all related to God being outside the confines of time and space as well if you look at my reply to Nadia, your analogy is very interesting too, somehow I feel this will be a topic that I will jihad with for a long time, I just pray it doesnt tear up my faith like it did Sara's (LOL you know I'm jus messin with you Sara wink anyways thanx for the contribution Tay, another person I hope to hear from in this thread is idolfree
and may God guide us all
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Peace Idris,
agree but God knows all in an absolute way, so before I was created He knew everything I would do right? do I have choice to act outside of what He already 100% absolutely knew would happen in my life? the major error I can see in this argument is that its restricting God to a certain period of time but it seems like according to that verse 1,000 years to you is one day to God that God has some sort of time, or maybe its allegorical
Hmm, where to begin...okay, let's take the example of one human being right now for purposes of explanation and we then can take it generally. Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven, and also that i'm going to choose the particular dress i'm wearing right now (weird jump i know but it ties in the serious and the trivial at the same time). That does not take away from my choices of choosing what dress to wear BUT i'm limited to the number of choices i have according to the number of dresses i have.
I can't understand how it's restricting God (pls explain if i'm not getting it), but it is restricting me according to the number and types of choices i have depending on how/where i was born etc...and thats what the determined course/plan is. Everyone is tested differently acc to their capabilities/station/place in this wordly life.
I know, according to His laws I've always thought was a better translation
I agree, after discussing with you guys, laws have begun to spin their web in my head.
yeah His laws, his law of cause and effect, law of recompense (reward), and law of requital (punishment)<---what i said here has basically nothing to do with the discussion though so just ignore it
Good point.
nope, but its quite possible the fact that God knew absolutely what choice a person makes (i.e. the wrong path) before that person is created because of the fact that the person can't choose outside of what God 100% absolutely knew before his creation might
Yes, we have a set number of outcomes and a set number/type of choices that can lead us to those set outcomes. But the free choice is inherent within this system.
I'm just trying to shake this paradox or my misunderstanding if I have any
I wrestled with these questions too, it's good to discuss it further so that a picture is more solid in our minds taking from the points of view of everyone.
i think predetermination and free will are contradicting because (I'll explain in my definition) preordained-I mean predetermined, in the context of the talk I mean an action/choice/outcome/etc. set in stone before a person/animal/etc. is created which the person/animal has no choice or decision to act outside of but unknowingly conforms to this predetermination under the illusion of free will, sometimes not under the illusion though
Lets take God's system as a maze with two exits. One will get you cheese and one will get you dismembered by a trap. The system exists and you exist within this system. The choices/paths you take are there, but which path will you take? Around you on the walls of the maze are signs pointing you to the cheese exit and warning you of the trap exit...will you heed them or ignore them? It's not a complete analogy, i should add more embellishments but i know you will understand what i'm trying to get at.
Yes the system is already there and we are all created by God, yet given choices within this system to accept and submit willingly and consistently to His system to achieve the good ending. There is no chaos, it's all intricately planned for the benefit or detriment of our own souls that we decide how to mould.
So all in all, there is a freedom of choice which is an illusion and also a real freedom of choice restricted to His system. The reason why i think is because we were created and not creators. ( and everything is in pairs, dont know why that leapt to my mind)
Sorry if its a tad long though!
Nadia
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Peace Idris,
It is quite humbling to be sought for insight. I truly appreciate it and wish you to know that your own insight has helped me tremendously.
Peace Nadia,
I enjoyed and agree with all of your points except for one. Perhaps I misunderstood
Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven
If you mean this in the absolute sense of an eternal suffering, and that God knew this would be your outcome before you were even created, then I humbly disagree for the following reasons
It is completely unjust to create a being for the sole purpose of eternal suffering, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".
It is completely without compassion to let a human being live with the illusion of possibly going to Heaven, knowing full well that the human will not, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".
Hoping for some articulation.
Peace,
Tay -
peace,
Hmm, where to begin...okay, let's take the example of one human being right now for purposes of explanation and we then can take it generally. Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven, and also that i'm going to choose the particular dress i'm wearing right now (weird jump i know but it ties in the serious and the trivial at the same time). That does not take away from my choices of choosing what dress to wear BUT i'm limited to the number of choices i have according to the number of dresses i have.
hmmm I dont quite understand yet so Ima scroll down and see what else you said and see if it gives me a better view of the argument , but I'll try to get a better understanding of this by putting your argument in an outline
- God knew absolutely that you were going to choose the dress you are now wearing
- It still doesn't take away from your choice of choosing but you are limited in your possible choices
is that an accurate outline? I want to know before I logically examine it
I can't understand how it's restricting God (pls explain if i'm not getting it), but it is restricting me according to the number and types of choices i have depending on how/where i was born etc...and thats what the determined course/plan is. Everyone is tested differently acc to their capabilities/station/place in this wordly life.
I was referring to my own argument, not yours, possibly restricting God to a time frame and that being a major flaw of it, I'm one of the few people I know that will openly self-criticize/analyze themselves in debate/discussion so I could see how you found it wierd
Yes, we have a set number of outcomes and a set number/type of choices that can lead us to those set outcomes. But the free choice is inherent within this system.
Lets take God's system as a maze with two exits. One will get you cheese and one will get you dismembered by a trap. The system exists and you exist within this system. The choices/paths you take are there, but which path will you take? Around you on the walls of the maze are signs pointing you to the cheese exit and warning you of the trap exit...will you heed them or ignore them? It's not a complete analogy, i should add more embellishments but i know you will understand what i'm trying to get at.
Yes the system is already there and we are all created by God, yet given choices within this system to accept and submit willingly and consistently to His system to achieve the good ending. There is no chaos, it's all intricately planned for the benefit or detriment of our own souls that we decide how to mould.
So all in all, there is a freedom of choice which is an illusion and also a real freedom of choice restricted to His system. The reason why i think is because we were created and not creators. ( and everything is in pairs, dont know why that leapt to my mind)
Sorry if its a tad long though!
Nadia
no problem, I'm kind of too tired to really give a good response, you did pretty good from what I read, I hope Sara likes the argument
peace
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Peace Tay,
If you mean this in the absolute sense of an eternal suffering,
I'm sorry, bit late in the night and i couldn't understand the point above but i will try to explain what my opinion is till now regarding this. Hope to have more input from you...and everyone else of course.
It is completely unjust to create a being for the sole purpose of eternal suffering, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".
Well here, are we trying to define what is just and unjust in God's point of view? If so, then what observations/opinions of justice do we have? Would it be just to murder a child and to countinue the serial killing spree and escape unscathed?
Imho, i think that every soul is created equal and given an equal chance at redeeming and moulding itself to God's system. The ones that would be going to hell transgress repeatedly till the point of no return. Does that mean they didn't have a chance/s of redeeming themselves and turning to God? Does that mean they deserve to be punished for their flagrant disregard of God?
If you'll say why create a being that will do evil? I'll say it's our choices that we take that lead us to where we go, does that mean we are inherently evil? No. It means that some of us choose evil as a choice consistenly and transgress against God's system in rebellion. God is our creator, we can't expect to rebel against the Almighty and go home free, we have to prove ourselves worthy of the responsibilities upon us, to payback this chance at an awesome existance that is truly wondrous, to serve God, accept His system and earn our right to the everlasting peace.
Commonly termed freedom of choice is an illusion and the other is real, inherent and restricted to His system. It is also a double edged sword. We can make it or break it.
It is completely without compassion to let a human being live with the illusion of possibly going to Heaven, knowing full well that the human will not, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".
Here is where i disagree. There is no illusion of going to heaven or hell for the soul involved. It can go to heaven or hell depending on it's choices. It's an equal chance opportunity for the soul involved. Complete freedom of choice restricted to His system, we decide whether we go to heaven or hell. Does God try to guide the soul to the right path? Yes. Does the God force the soul to the right path? No, what would be the point of that? What would be the point of being given a test in His system and given freedom of choice to choose our outcomes and forced to choose only one?
It is a test and one worthy of testing our souls to the limit, to see what we are made of, to see how we are, to see whether we use our perception and take the right path, or turn arrogant and transgress. It's ultimately for our benefit, this test...and we will achieve our ultimate reward or punishment according to God's justice.
If there are things God didn't know then thats a contradiction and a limitation of God and as we know God has no limitations. As i said before, we can't complain (maybe a little) but this is His universe, we exist/live according to His rules/system, we are created because of His will...to serve Him willingly and earn our worth, to appreciate Him and the chance He has given us.
So in the end i'll ask you
Do you think that being given free choice in God's system is a double edged sword?
Do you think God created evil?
Do you think mankind is given an equal opportunity to make it or break it?
Do you think that God knowing all takes away from the free choice to our salvation or doom, according to God's laws we have inherent in His system?
Let's discuss this, it's very interesting this thread and as usual you bring thought provoking points to ponder and i'd like to work out some confusing aspects.
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Peace Idris,
- God knew absolutely that you were going to choose the dress you are now wearing
- It still doesn't take away from your choice of choosing but you are limited in your possible choices
Yes, in a nutshell. The reasoning behind it is because we are created, not creators, existing in a system created by the creator, thus we live by the rules/laws or turn arrogant/rebellious and transgress against the system. Thats what submission is all about. No one said it was going to be easy. wink
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Dear savage_carrot,
The nexus of cause and effect is predestined. Or, if we prefer, according to God?s will.
Let?s say you want to cross a small stream, you can choose to jump over it or walk through it. Whether you reach the other side, or not, is predestined but, maybe, not the way you get there.
God does know, however, what you are going to choose, because time does not exist for God, and therefore what we call future, or past, is for God irrelevant.
Is this the way we can look at it?
Best regards
Ali Omar
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Peace Ali Omar,
Let?s say you want to cross a small stream, you can choose to jump over it or walk through it. Whether you reach the other side, or not, is predestined but, maybe, not the way you get there.
Er, not sure what you are getting at here...are you implying that there is something God doesnt know? (excuse the implication but it wasn't clear)
God does know, however, what you are going to choose, because time does not exist for God, and therefore what we call future, or past, is for God irrelevant.
Oh i see what you are trying to say now...yes i agree, and will add just a little bit more, that everything i do, no matter how small or trivial or major, is known by God and His will...
Btw, predestined always carried shades of some force inherent within the word...i don't think that there is any kind of force used by God to any of the ultimate outcomes, but guidance indeed...we are free to choose our outcome. Or does predestined directly translate to known before 'our' time?
Nadia
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Peace Nadia,
Let's hit the brakes for a moment.
I think where we're failing in communication is in "tense". See, I agree with all of your points. But, your points, at face value, contradict this statement of yours,
Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven
Now this is crucial. You say God KNEW. This is past tense. So what I need to know is, do you believe God KNEW your destiny before you were created?
If so, then this contradicts even human justice, and thus, you are stuck in a logical paradox, and we're in for a looooong discussion.
If not then we're on the same page and should seek to define this understanding better.
So again, is it that God "Knew", or the God "Knows"?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay...
So again, is it that God "Knew", or the God "Knows"?
Arghh...i should hit the bed, yes of course it's God knows...sorry! ops
Can't believe i wrote that huuuuge post after!
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Dear savage_carrot and others,
Events like ?The Big Bang?, is just one incident that has no significance with regards to the ?whole?.
From the human point of view it started some time ago, but God does not have any ?ago? perspective on it.I regard God as a force, which is holding everything in balance, always, and that the God knows every detail in all that happened 1000 years ago, from a human perspective, everything that happens today, and everything that happens 1000 years from now, in the same instant.
And, yes, I believe the expression ?predestined? just points to the fact that it is something that for humans will be a future event, taking place due to various causes that ?happen underway?, but that we can not ?see?, due to our inability to fully understand the effect of all the minute details of all the causes, until it has happened.
God knows absolutely all the effects of all causes and knows the outcome of any event since, what we call, eternity.
If we sit back and think, ?What?s the use, God has decided anyway?, then we don?t grasp the aspect of difference in knowing destiny and choosing it. God knows what we will choose, because from God?s aspect this has already happened, but from our point of view it has not happened yet.
Best regards
Ali Omar
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Why are we putting information here about things without prove if its just opinion we should say that.
Or can we quote quranic referances or something?
Salaams.Thanks.What a funny world.
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Good Idea.