All Knowing/Preordination/Free Choice
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Salam All,
To those who believe that every single one of their decisions is known, in advance, to God, I have one question... Let's say you are about to choose between two things, two events, at the end of the street, go left, event A, or go right event B. Let's say you ended up going left, so event A took place... question
- In God's knowledge, Would you say there is only event A? Do you think event B exists or not in God's knowledge?
My point is God is All-Knowing, His knowledge includes both events.
Those who claim God only knows the Universe where you went left have a "smaller" God than those who believe He knows both.
Another way of tackling this difficult problem is For those who claim there is no contradiction between God's omniscience and free-will
- If in God's knowledge, which is basically "The Absolute and Comprehensive Truth", there is only event A, does not that mean that event B is actually and effectively impossible? How could event B be possible if we already know it is absent from God's knowledge? Any turning around the bush about the nature of time and space and similar helps you not.... if you accept only one of two event is present in God's knowledge, than only one of them is actually possible. Then any talk of free-will is "pretend" like my 3 years old daughter says.. it's pretend free-will, pretend responsibility, pretend justice, pretend accountability )
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Peace All,
Ali Omar stated,
Events like ?The Big Bang?, is just one incident that has no significance with regards to the ?whole?. From the human point of view it started some time ago, but God does not have any ?ago? perspective on it.
I disagree. The significance of the "Big-Bang" is the beginning of linear time. It's the zero-point that we can trace back to. And time is the very thing that makes this discussion difficult, for we are trying to understand the timeless while being bound by time.
God knows absolutely all the effects of all causes and knows the outcome of any event since, what we call, eternity.
Well put, I agree.
If we sit back and think, ?What?s the use, God has decided anyway?, then we don?t grasp the aspect of difference in knowing destiny and choosing it. God knows what we will choose, because from God?s aspect this has already happened, but from our point of view it has not happened yet.
Exactly. Now if we could only get this message to the rest of the fatalistic Muslim world, we'd make progress.
MZ stated,
Why are we putting information here about things without prove if its just opinion we should say that.
It's just opinion.
Mohamed asked,
If in God's knowledge, which is basically "The Absolute and Comprehensive Truth", there is only event A, does not that mean that event B is actually and effectively impossible?
Yes and no. While one can only choose event A or event B, both possibilites exist until the moment of decision.
How could event B be possible if we already know it is absent from God's knowledge?
We don't know that. Nothing is absent from God's knowledge.
Any turning around the bush about the nature of time and space and similar helps you not
Recognizing one's limitations "helps you not"? I disagree completely. If time and space are irrelevant here, then the understanding of omnipresence vs. freewill would have been simple and this discussion wouldn't even take place.
The fact is, without the context of time and space, free-will cannot coexist with omnipresence while considering justice and compassion.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Mohamed,
To those who believe that every single one of their decisions is known, in advance, to God, I have one question... Let's say you are about to choose between two things, two events, at the end of the street, go left, event A, or go right event B. Let's say you ended up going left, so event A took place... question
- In God's knowledge, Would you say there is only event A? Do you think event B exists or not in God's knowledge?
Event B and so on also exist in God's knowledge obviously or He won't be the God y'know...
Those who claim God only knows the Universe where you went left have a "smaller" God than those who believe He knows both.
I agree, but who would say that?
If in God's knowledge, which is basically "The Absolute and Comprehensive Truth", there is only event A, does not that mean that event B is actually and effectively impossible? How could event B be possible if we already know it is absent from God's knowledge? Any turning around the bush about the nature of time and space and similar helps you not.... if you accept only one of two event is present in God's knowledge, than only one of them is actually possible.
The paths we take and the choices we can make are limited to His system, thus the choices/paths are limited in number. God knows all, all the choices we can take and do take. Why do you say some people say God doesn't know something? It won't be an all-knowing God then right?
Also it is a controlled system/environment...there is no chaos, God is in full control.Peace Tay,
Yes i have some questions that are confusing me regarding the 'start' from mankind's perspective...will post when i have the time, would be glad to work things out!
Peace Ali Omar,
I have some questions regarding the post, will get back to you!
Nadia
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Assalamu?alaikum,
Just to comply with some expressed wishes on this thread.
A few verses concerning the non-existence of time from God?s ?point of view?
54.50
Our commands are done within the blink of an eye.27.40
The one who possessed knowledge from the book said, "I can bring it to you in the blink of your eye."???????.16.77
To GOD belongs the future of the heavens and the earth. As far as He is concerned, the end of the world (the Hour) is a blink of an eye away, or even closer. GOD is Omnipotent.Some verses about eternity
40.39
"O my people, this first life is a temporary illusion, while the Hereafter is the eternal abode."33.62
This is GOD's eternal system, and you will find that GOD's system is unchangeable.3.2
GOD there is no god except He; the Living, the EternalComplete control, and complete knowledge of everything, of the past/present/future
2.255
GOD there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great.6.59
With Him are the keys to all secrets; none knows them except He. He knows everything on land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls without His knowledge. Nor is there a grain in the depths of the soil. Nor is there anything wet or dry, that is not recorded in a profound record.Everything comes from God and is returning to God
28.88
You shall not worship beside GOD any other god. There is no other god beside Him. Everything perishes except His presence. To Him belongs all sovereignty, and to Him you will be returned.20.50
He said, "Our Lord is the One who granted everything its existence, and its guidance."6.164
Say, "Shall I seek other than GOD as a lord, when He is the Lord of all things? No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another. Ultimately, you return to your Lord, then He informs you regarding all your disputes."Best regards
Ali Omar
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Salaams Br.
Thanks for that - i am sure it took you a while!
Past/present/"FUTURE"
If you have anything on the future bit- please,The future in 2255 is a bit mistranslated -i think,check it.But if there is anything anywhere else please.
Salaams.
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Salam Tay, Nadia and All,
Mohamed asked,
If in God's knowledge, which is basically "The Absolute and Comprehensive Truth", there is only event A, does not that mean that event B is actually and effectively impossible?
Yes and no. While one can only choose event A or event B, both possibilites exist until the moment of decision.
You believe those two events are different, right? Both of them are "possibility", but only one of them will materialize, right? let's say event A is the one that will materialize. Think in terms of History, catalogue of the universe's events that materialized, that happened... In God's timeless, eternal knowledge... you agree only one of the two events exists... as real. Two exist as possibilities, but only one exists are real... right? and that since forever and will stay the same forever.
Question what are chances of event B materializing? Zero.
Here's how I see it... There are two kinds of knowledge, as far as the Universe events go. One that encompasses all possibilities, has a record of every single event that could ever happen. the other one is about events that did happen. let's call these two kinds of knowledge books. The first book is static, closed. The second is dynamic, its content is linked closely to Man's free-will... that is the book that is being written as we speak.. as we take decisions and do things...
Basically, both events A and B are in the first book. None of those events is in the second book, until I reach the end of the street and effectively make my turn, left or right, then and only then, is one of the two events added to the second book.
Do you see my point?
Mohamed~
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Salaams ali,
Thanks,
After checking the ayats , the message seems more mistranslated then other translations - to me anyway.
They are bringing the word future in places where it isn't in the arabic side,strange.
The message writers need some checks - believe it.
Salaams.
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Peace Mohamed, Tay and all,
Yes, that's a good analogy, i did write that God knows all, all the choices we can take and do take.
As for dynamic, is that from mankind's perspective to put things in logical order then? Or is God suprised with the choices we make? I think it's for mankind's perspective because God wouldn't be surprised at anything since He knows all anyway...
Now for a bit of the confusing questions
Let's say God knows all. Now when God planned adam, before He created him actually, did He know what would happen?
As per verse 230
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
Note that God said 'I will create', so could this be when He was planning it? Or when He had already created and this put into motion what happened later leading eventually to our emergence on earth? But in either case when God planned this, when He conceived of the 'idea' of adam for the first time, did He know the ending? Accepted that God is all knowing the answer is yes, He did know.
Okay, if He did know, then where is the 'justice' from human perspective then? The 'compassion' ? This is where my opinion comes in a bit, might need lots of refinement and your help!
I think that when God thought and planned Adam, it wasn't a spur of the moment thing, I think that before anything was designed/actually created/put into effect, the 'plan' was thought of...the plan included the malaika and the jinn and the universe/system and mankind...thus when adam was created, it was a countinuation of the plan, not a new plan just for adam. All that was created is a part of the plan.
Right now i'll be majorly focused on mankind not anything else so bear with me please.
The laws/system apply to adam and his descendents. I'll explain how. Once adam was conceived of, God knew that some of his descendents will wrong their souls and some will keep their covenant with God. Now does that mean that the ball started rolling for us when adam was created? Like a domino effect adam and his wife = rest of mankind...all created before then put on earth according to the plan (parents/families)...Did God know when creating each individual soul who was going to wrong it and who wasn't? Or did God know this when He conceived of the plan to start with?
If the former, then we can think that God did not know something when He conceived the plan. And if the latter, then where's the love eh? Or is it that when God conceived it, designed it, created it and it happened, it was all one event which happened according to God, in one fell swoop.
Okay, i'm going to stop now, before i confuse myself and wait for your input on this...
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Peace mz,
After checking the ayats , the message seems more mistranslated then other translations - to me anyway.
They are bringing the word future in places where it isn't in the arabic side,strange.
I've always read that verse as God knows what's behind them and whats in front of them/after them, which can mean the future (in mankinds perspective) obviously...but i'm a bit puzzled, are you trying to say that God doesn't know the future? That there is some limitation to the God? That He is not all knowing?
Need some clarification please.
Nadia
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Peace MZ,
Basically, both events A and B are in the first book. None of those events is in the second book, until I reach the end of the street and effectively make my turn, left or right, then and only then, is one of the two events added to the second book.
Do you see my point?
Yes, I see your point loud and clear, and we're on the same "page", no pun intended. Thank you for clarifying..
Injunctions in brackets are mine to clear up any possible confusion, please correct me if I'm wrong...
Here's how I see it... There are two kinds of knowledge, as far as the Universe events go. One that encompasses all possibilities, has a record of every single event that could ever happen. the other one is about events that did happen. let's call these two kinds of knowledge books. The first book is static, closed. The second is dynamic, its content is linked closely to Man's free-will... that is the book that is being written as we speak.. as we take decisions and do things...
I'd add that the dynamic book, at any moment in present time, reveals the future consequences of current decisions, although these consequences are still dynamic based on future decisions, and this knowledge is completely unavailable to mankind. Only Allah knows what lies ahead. This excludes, of course, common sense consequences.
Are we still on the same page?
Peace,
Tay -
Salaams Nadia,tay,all,
Where is sara i actually started this future business because of her - that is her posts,which where quite unbeleivable ,but i think some missunderstanding ,however was embodied in them aswell.
Again nadia you are putting the future trans,i think yourself i havn't been able to find it in the lanes in about 8 pages translating the single word -if you have please confirm it here.(Khalf,in arabic,-2255)
It allways means behind or the past , thats all is what i have seen.
Salaams tay but i think you have mixed up the x and y ,it may be better the other way ,please check.The second y and x may be the other way.
I havn't been able to understand the last bit ,from i'd add..........sorry.
but mohammad seemed right (to me)in his argument above.
Thanks.
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Peace mz,
Please clarify again
2255 Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
By your definition the verse would read He knows what is before them and behind them? And by before you are saying the past? What would be the point of the usage of this double past then? Couldn't it mean that before them is what is in front of them? As i could say, your future is before you, shining and glorious. Also, please render us your translation of the verse, not just the word, i'd like to see it in the context of the verse to clear it up.
Also you said on the other thread and i asked you this question before as well, maybe it was lost in the thread...you said God doesn't know that's why it's a test...Are you saying that there is something God doesn't know?
Please explain, would like to hear your understanding. Thanks.
edited to include
I searched for the word and these are all the verses where it occurs for the future context
2255, 717, 20110, 2128, 2276, 349, 369, 4114, 4125.
Now if it just means the past, then how would you translate all those verses? Like say for example, 2276.
He knows what is before them and what is behind them and to Allah go back all questions (for decision).
This would mean God only knows what is before them and what is before them? Or what is behind them and what is behind them? Or what is before them and behind them? In all these verses God is using only the past? Doesn't make sense.
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Alrite first of all I'd like to apologise in advance for not having read all the replies in this thread but I just got up from sleep and this idea came to my head in one of random REM dream sessions However, it all makes sense and is totally grounded in logic.
Two premises
arrow God exists
arrow God knows all
Okay, so in accordance with my discussion with savage carrot in this thread here we have come to the mutual conclusion that the universe, from the perspective of an eternal timeless being, is a deterministic system. What this means is that every outcome, or "effect", is predetermined. The universe is a deterministic state machine. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with logical state machines and deterministic state machines, but I propose that the universe is one big massive state machine.
Alrite so those of you not familiar with the state machine, I'll just explain it briefly for you. It's basically a logical flow of events, where a set of inputs lead you through to a set of outputs. You start from an initial state and depending on your input, you go to a certain state. So if "0" is our initial state, and we have two other states in our system, states "A" and "B", and on an input of "1", the machine proceeds to state "A", and in input "2" the machine proceeds to state "B". To explain this diagramatically I've quickly put something together in photoshop
http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bill_rd/state_1.gif
So staying with this diagram, first imagine yourself as a human in state "0" and you don't know what input you'll get, so you get a certain input, say "1" and thus you go to state A and proceed onwards, and if you get input "2" you go to state B and proceed onwards. Now take god's perspective and look at the paper as a 2d object - look, you can clearly see what's happening. You know "everything" about this system - the inputs, and the outputs.
Now imagine the universe on a piece of paper, with every single "cause" as a state and its effect an "output", which would serve as the input for another state/cause. So because you know all the inputs and the states and their behaviour, you know all the output - thus the entire thing is planned. Going back to the "states" perspective, if you were a state in this massive state machine, you'd still have the notion of free will because you don't know all possible inputs; however from a godly perspective, since everything is known, your inputs and outputs are also known.
Consider the uncertainty principle put forth by quantum physics, which dictates that we can never know to 100% accuracy the state of a particle. But an extension of this theory is that if we did know the state of every single particle within the universe, then we could tell the future - not predict it, but tell it. Tell exactly what's going to happen in the next 2 seconds, years, centuries, millenia, and so on and so forth. This fits in perfectly fine with the model I proposed because we don't know the state of every single particle within the universe but god does. Thus we dont know our futures and we can never know our future and to us, everything is still a choice.
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Peace neo,
Awesome post! Thank you for putting it in such a clear way for everyone.
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peace, Neo
Alrite first of all I'd like to apologise in advance for not having read all the replies in this thread but I just got up from sleep and this idea came to my head in one of random REM dream sessions However, it all makes sense and is totally grounded in logic.
Two premises
arrow God exists
arrow God knows all
Okay, so in accordance with my discussion with savage carrot in this thread here we have come to the mutual conclusion that the universe, from the perspective of an eternal timeless being, is a deterministic system. What this means is that every outcome, or "effect", is predetermined. The universe is a deterministic state machine. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with logical state machines and deterministic state machines, but I propose that the universe is one big massive state machine.
Alrite so those of you not familiar with the state machine, I'll just explain it briefly for you. It's basically a logical flow of events, where a set of inputs lead you through to a set of outputs. You start from an initial state and depending on your input, you go to a certain state. So if "0" is our initial state, and we have two other states in our system, states "A" and "B", and on an input of "1", the machine proceeds to state "A", and in input "2" the machine proceeds to state "B". To explain this diagramatically I've quickly put something together in photoshop
http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bill_rd/state_1.gif
So staying with this diagram, first imagine yourself as a human in state "0" and you don't know what input you'll get, so you get a certain input, say "1" and thus you go to state A and proceed onwards, and if you get input "2" you go to state B and proceed onwards. Now take god's perspective and look at the paper as a 2d object - look, you can clearly see what's happening. You know "everything" about this system - the inputs, and the outputs.
Now imagine the universe on a piece of paper, with every single "cause" as a state and its effect an "output", which would serve as the input for another state/cause. So because you know all the inputs and the states and their behaviour, you know all the output - thus the entire thing is planned. Going back to the "states" perspective, if you were a state in this massive state machine, you'd still have the notion of free will because you don't know all possible inputs; however from a godly perspective, since everything is known, your inputs and outputs are also known.
Consider the uncertainty principle put forth by quantum physics, which dictates that we can never know to 100% accuracy the state of a particle. But an extension of this theory is that if we did know the state of every single particle within the universe, then we could tell the future - not predict it, but tell it. Tell exactly what's going to happen in the next 2 seconds, years, centuries, millenia, and so on and so forth. This fits in perfectly fine with the model I proposed because we don't know the state of every single particle within the universe but god does. Thus we dont know our futures and we can never know our future and to us, everything is still a choice.
incredible post
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Peace Neo,
Thank you for the excellent explanation. My only question is whether you feel the decision to choose input 1 or input 2 is predetermined.
Peace MZ,
You're right, I did flip flop the X and Y.
X= static book of all possibilites
Y= dynamic book of that has happenedThis renders my "I'd like to add" pointless, so no worries.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Neo,
Thank you for the excellent explanation. My only question is whether you feel the decision to choose input 1 or input 2 is predetermined.
If you know the inputs, you know the outputs, that's how state machines work. God knows every input, which is the resultant of another output - god also knows the first input which results in every other output (the proverbial "big bang"). Whether its predetermined or not is not for me and you to answer because that would imply me or you know god's determination. But suffice it to say, that if a being knew everything - the notion or dimension of time would be removed from that being's perspective. This being would become "timeless", per se
peace
p.s. savage_carrot, I'll reply to your PM as soon as I have some decent amount of time
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Salaams Tay,
X Static book of one direction,possibility because everything obeys Gods laws.There arn't a number of possibilities-i don't think.
But because Humans don't obey law therefore their outcomes,or possibilites are phenominal,although God knows the direction or course of the universe and other things that obey his laws he doesn't now of what peoples choice will be because choice is not based on any law it is a personal thing,which we can change at anytime of day and so the outcome will thus be different,and thus cause X to have a number of outcomes rather then simply one.
And when you do turn round the corner that is when that perticular outcome is written in the dynamic book Y.Therefore only reason Y is different to X is because we have a free will and don't obey any law as does the rest of the creation.(But if you didn't have a free will then you could have said Allah knows the future and all).
This is the way i understand.But hope you clarify if i am wrong.Thanks.
Salaams nadia,
I will try and trans some of those ayat and i do believe they are mistranslated- i will show that i think;mind you Zenje has shown some very good ayats.
If we are wrong may Allah forgive all.
Salaams.