A simple argument regarding the Quran's being clear

antibhondo

U saying anything,brother, of course he had to be obeyed, in religion wise because he had given them the quran, and worldy wise because he was their leader

loxbox13
Assalamu Alaikum.

Thank you for you said that "he had to be obeyed." Please DO NOT associate any "because' from your own with the command of "obey messenger" or "follow messenger'. Quran has never said that he was to be obeyed because he delivered the Quran. Quran has very clearly stated the reason, that, he was to be obeyed and followed because

2454 Say "Obey God, and obey the messenger." But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided.

Following the messenger is a proof that the followers love Allah
Followers of the messenger will receive Allah's love.
Followers of the messenger will receive Allah's forgiveness.
Following the messenger is a condition of being guided.

Hey brother, if those people were bound to follow him and obey him, and if He was a messenger for us too (Say "O mankind, I am God's messenger to you all.), then this command is also for us to follow and obey him.

We have already shown with a very simple example that if you are sent a letter with a command written in the letter, then merely obeying the command does not require following the bearer of the letter, and indeed, merely obeying the command does mean only obeying the commander, not the bearer.

Therefore,
merely obeying the Quran does not equal obeying or following the messenger.

And therefore,
merely obeying the Quran does not satisfy the Quran's command of following and obeying the messenger.

Therefore,
A trial to obey ONLY QURAN clearly leads to the way of DISOBEYING THE QURAN ITSELF.

Thank you.

herbman

Peace,

question why do you truncate the verse

2454 Say "Obey God, and obey the messenger." But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided.

Say "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear ."

antibhondo

Peace,

question why do you truncate the verse

Say "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear ."

Assalamu Alaikum.

In the following link, I have spoken a lot about this ayat

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601994.msg271641#msg271641

(From point 2) You will see that, to focus a point, I truncated this ayat more , in that link, at the very beginning. Then, after just a while, you will again see that ayat represented fully.

Please read the full comment in the above link, and then feel free to ask anything that you do not feel ok.

By the way, Yusuf Ali translated the ayat 2454 as you mentioned. But he translated the ayat 592, 1644 & 1664 in a very different way
592Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.

1644(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

1664And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.

Read these ayats with other translations

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/92/default.htm

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/24/54/default.htm

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/16/44/default.htm

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/16/64/default.htm

herbman

Ok,

This kind of discussions never ends...anyway
So you mean "obey God and obey the messenger" means you have to follow the hadiths whch build the sunna--> ok

I say, prophete Muhamed never approved the ahadith because he was dead when written. Whatever a hadith says, it has not been approved by him. Am I following the prophete if I follow hadith? No, I am following the authors of the hadith.

Now, let's do it my way.

To whom the Book has been revealed first?
To the prophete Muhamad.
So, if I follow what prophete Muhamad says, Am I obeying God and his prophete?
I would say Yes
an Example

54

They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food) say Lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah; eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it and fear Allah; for Allah is swift in taking account.

what is in bold is a clear command.
Who's command is that?
It is a command from THE GOD said by prophete Muhamed, if I obey what is behind "qul=say" I obey the prophete and The GOD.

Peace, God bless you.

Mazhar

Ok,

This kind of discussions never ends...anyway
So you mean "obey God and obey the messenger" means you have to follow the hadiths whch build the sunna--> ok

I say, prophete Muhamed never approved the ahadith because he was dead when written. Whatever a hadith says, it has not been approved by him. Am I following the prophete if I follow hadith? No, I am following the authors of the hadith.

Now, let's do it my way.

To whom the Book has been revealed first?
To the prophete Muhamad.
So, if I follow what prophete Muhamad says, Am I obeying God and his prophete?
I would say Yes
an Example

54

They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food) say Lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah; eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it and fear Allah; for Allah is swift in taking account.

what is in bold is a clear command.
Who's command is that?
It is a command from THE GOD said by prophete Muhamed, if I obey what is behind "qul=say" I obey the prophete and The GOD.

Peace, God bless you.

Obey means to follow the instructions, to act as has been told. And this happens only when one accepts the instructions/verbal statements-injuntions.

We obey Allah when we follow the Qur'aan. And thus we simultaneously obey the words/instructions spoken by the Messenger since Qur'aan is thereby declared as

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/069.%20Al%20Haqata/69.40a.gif
that undoubtedly that/Grand Qur'aan is certainly the Oral and written word/narration of the Exalted Messenger;

6940

rahenijaat1

Allah sent His Messenger(SAW) with "The Message".

And Allah ordered us to obey the Messenger.
---"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger." (Al-Nisaa-59)---
---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

What is "Obedience to Allah"?-----What is "Obedience to the Messenger"?
Are these two different things?---Or---Are they one thing?

The ummah (99.99%) say these are two different things.
They say that Al-Quran is obedience to Allah. And Ahadith are the obedience to the Messenger.

It means that If someone follows Al-Quran, he has done obedience to Allah,
-----but he has not done obedience to the Messenger. Is it so?

And it also means that if someone follows Ahadith, he has done obedience to the Messenger,
-----but he has not done obedience to Allah. Is it so?

Am I right? Or am I wrong?-----But stop!-----Perhaps, I am wrong!

Read and know what Allah is declaring.

---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

And how do you obey the Messenger?
you obey the Messenger by following his Ahadith.
---So, by obeying the Messenger, you have obeyed Allah. bravo

What a way to get rid of The Message that the Messenger brought.

Think, if you wish, Or leave for those who think!

MesMorial

MesMorial,
Assalamu Alaikum.

You were very near to solve this pseudo-contradiction!

You are almost right! But there is a problem. Just after the sentence mentioned above, you said
"There were at the time more ayat to come, and thus people were instructed (to be ready) to obey them."

If at the time more ayats were yet to come, then could Muhammad (sm) know the instructions which were associated with those ayats?
And if those instructions were yet to be known by Muhammad (sm), would it be possible for Muhammad (sm) to instruct the people (to be ready)?

Thanks.

My thanks to Antibhondo for alerting me to this comment.

My response (this being only a fraction of my original point)

No as per the ayah where the Messenger is to proclaim ?I only follow what is revealed to me? and that he does not know the unseen, I am saying that the people were to be ready to obey and follow the Messenger according to the Message that had been delivered and what was still to come (the future Revelation still being unknown to the Messenger, but once he received it he would obey it and others would then follow suit).

?The commandment of Allah will come to pass, so seek not ye to hasten it. Glorified and Exalted be He above all that they associate (with Him).?

Qur?an 161

So THE MESSENGER (you do not use the title and thus confuse the context) is saying (according to the Qur?an) that more ayat are to come. Now since it is a commandment, people will obviously have to obey it!

Salaam.

antibhondo

Ok,

This kind of discussions never ends...anyway
So you mean "obey God and obey the messenger" means you have to follow the hadiths whch build the sunna--> ok

I say, prophete Muhamed never approved the ahadith because he was dead when written. Whatever a hadith says, it has not been approved by him. Am I following the prophete if I follow hadith? No, I am following the authors of the hadith.

This is why I requested rahenijaat1 to study on the formation of madhabs and collection of ahadiths. Imam Hanifa (80 148 AH) and Imam Shafii (135-188 AH) did not base on any formal ahadith collection. Imam Malik (93 179 AH) & Imam Hambal (164-241 AH) had their own collections. Imam Bukhari's life span was 196-256AH.

Would you please have a study on how Imam Hanifa and Imam Shafii formed their madhabs? If they did not follow any BOOKS of Ahadith, why do you say that people accepting the thoughts of these Imams are following the authors of Ahadiths?

AND BROTHER, please remember. THERE IS NO AUTHOR OF AHADITHS. THERE ARE AHADITH COLLECTORS. AND, NO ONE IS here FOLLOWING ANY COLLECTORS.

Now, let's do it my way.

To whom the Book has been revealed first?
To the prophete Muhamad.
So, if I follow what prophete Muhamad says, Am I obeying God and his prophete?
I would say Yes
an Example

54

They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food) say Lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah; eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it and fear Allah; for Allah is swift in taking account.

what is in bold is a clear command.
Who's command is that?
It is a command from THE GOD said by prophete Muhamed, if I obey what is behind "qul=say" I obey the prophete and The GOD.

Peace, God bless you.

Yes. It was a very good example to mention in this context. And you are absolutely right. It is a command of GOD uttered by Muhammad (sm). And yes, if I obey what is behind "qul=say" I obey the prophete and The GOD.

So, this is simple. Now tell me one thing. After you accept the Quran as something definitely from Allah, do you at all need to hear the command as a man's command? We have already got many direct commands in the Quran. If I could obey those commands without even thinking of obeying any man, why Allah needed some commands uttered by the messenger and then command us to obey this messenger?

Brother, every command is from Allah, and obeying every command necessarily means "obeying Allah". Again, if you obey just Allah (obey & follow the clear guidelines described by the Quran), you are automatically doing exactly what the messenger did. If this is what Allah wanted by commanding to obey & follow the messenger, then there was no need to command to obey & follow the messenger.

Do you notice this dilemma, brother???

Simply speaking, if people acknowledges the message as from Allah's, and if it is true that obeying ONLY Allah is the main message, and the message is clear, and already sufficiently detailed, then there is no need to command people to obey and follow the bearer of the message (the main aim of which is to make people obey ONLY ALLAH). Since people have already acknowledged the messages as from Allah's, then the believer will of course obey the message, thus clearly obeying Allah. NO INTERMEDIARY is needed here.

And if they do not acknowledge the message from Allah's, then the command of obeying & following the messenger is simply meaningless.

So, in both cases, the command for obeying Allah is meaningless...

Do you notice this dilemma???

And the Ayat I already mentioned above
1644(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

What do you think Allah meant by this Ayat???

rahenijaat1, and Mazhar

This comment is also for you.

Thank you.

antibhondo

Allah sent His Messenger(SAW) with "The Message".

And Allah ordered us to obey the Messenger.
---"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger." (Al-Nisaa-59)---
---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

What is "Obedience to Allah"?-----What is "Obedience to the Messenger"?
Are these two different things?---Or---Are they one thing?

The ummah (99.99%) say these are two different things.
They say that Al-Quran is obedience to Allah. And Ahadith are the obedience to the Messenger.

It means that If someone follows Al-Quran, he has done obedience to Allah,
-----but he has not done obedience to the Messenger. Is it so?

And it also means that if someone follows Ahadith, he has done obedience to the Messenger,
-----but he has not done obedience to Allah. Is it so?

Am I right? Or am I wrong?-----But stop!-----Perhaps, I am wrong!

Read and know what Allah is declaring.

---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

And how do you obey the Messenger?
you obey the Messenger by following his Ahadith.
---So, by obeying the Messenger, you have obeyed Allah. bravo

What a way to get rid of The Message that the Messenger brought.

Think, if you wish, Or leave for those who think!

rahenijaat1
Assalamu Alaikum.

I search for the practice of Muhammad (sm) only because I was commanded by the Quran to do so. Otherwise I would not even care for who Muhammad (sm) is. Please notice this.

I know Allah has said that if people do not follow Muhammad (sm), he/she will not be guided ((715). This is important, at least to me.

To me, if the concept of QURAN-ONLY had been right, then Allah would have never revealed this verse (and the likes).

Thank you.

antibhondo

This is from other post. This post is also for rahenijaat1, Mazhar, and herbman.

@ Raaajah

Salaam;

Remember it was clearer at the time (amongst the people) for the Quran to say Obey Allah and His Messenger than to simply say Obey Allah or Obey what Muhammad follows.

If we are not supposed to follow the practice of Muhammad (sm) in obeying Allah's command, then please allow me to disagree that Obey Allah and His Messenger is clearer than Obey Allah or "obey the message".

Any command to "Obey messenger", "follow messenger", or association of this command with the guidance and love for/of Allah in any form makes the main idea vague.

"Follow messenger", in simple thinking, refers to "Follow" whatever the messenger does, whichever ways the messenger chooses, etc. If any meaning of these is not applicable, you have to prove that from Quran Only.

If we are really not supposed to follow the practice of Muhammad (sm) in obeying Allah's command, then Allah must have revealed some ayats that clearly indicates where this "simple thinking" will not be applicable.

Does Quran have any ayat that directly states indicating that {{do not follow the messenger in this & this cases...}}???

The first is confusing without needing to explain why, and the second is silly because Muhammad (SAW) was divulging the Quran and thus he might be following himself! It would be redundant to say Obey what the Messenger follows because the Message was being delivered by a person, and therefore we have to obey that person anyway (again he might be following himself). The Quran might have said Obey the Message but then luckily Muhammad (SAW) is instructed to do only that in 543-50 and many other places (e.g. 7203, 1015). It is after all necessary to know exactly where that Message is coming from (saying Messenger instead of Message clarifies this). Ayat such as 758 explain that the Quran repeats ayat to help us understand it.

I simply failed to understand why the first will be confusing. If someone acknowledges the Quran as a message from Allah, then "Obey Allah" is a very clear message! Why is it confusing?

I could no how agree with your argument regarding "Obey what the messenger follows", or "Obey the message". Look, before you accept the command "Obey Messenger", you have to decide whether you acknowledge the message as one really sent by Allah. If you acknowledge that to be from Allah, then you will just obey it. Why even bother for thinking about the messenger??? Let alone "obey him". If you do not acknowledge the message to be from Allah, you are simply ignoring the command.

In both cases, the command is simply meaningless.

Again, you may say that before you acknowledge the message, you may be acknowledging the messenger...

However, if that is the case, then as soon as you acknowledging him to be the messenger, you are actually acknowledging the message. And as soon as you acknowledge the message why do you need to obey this messenger anymore? You said that

///It would be redundant to say Obey what the Messenger follows because the Message was being delivered by a person, and therefore we have to obey that person anyway (again he might be following himself).///

Please notice that whether you automatically obeying the messenger or not is not main point here. If you are automatically obeying the messenger, then, again, why the command? If Our main point was to obey Allah by obeying the message, then this "Obey messenger" command has make this main point very cloudy, I must say.

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

59

If Allah (SWT) is represented by the Quran and the Messenger by his interpretation of the Quran (ahadith), is Islam a religion authored by at least three different sources? However, after consulting those in authority we are instructed to refer disagreements to Allah and His Messenger. Thus, Obey Allah and obey the Messenger must necessarily reference one source. For further information on ayat 59-65, see the notes for 2124. See also 4238 for an ayah involving community consultation. Also remember it was necessary for Allah (SWT) to specify obey the Messenger so that people would know how to obey Allah (SWT) (see 480 and notes). There were at the time more ayat to come, and thus people were instructed (to be ready) to obey them (confirmed by 161). See also the notes for 331-32.

Brother, I don't have any problem with the "One Source". This is something you will notice no disagreement with, among any muslims. No other source other than ALLAH is acceptable to us.

However, I have noticed one assumption of yours that seemed to me very wrong. Please allow me to talk about that.

Probably you think that Allah has revealed only QURAN, and nothing else, to Muhammad (sm). Am I right?

Please read this comment http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601994.msg271665#msg271665
(Regarding this topic, Start reading from point 2-b)

In this comment I have proved from Quran itself has proof that Quran is not the only WAHY that was sent down to Muhammad (sm). A part was in the Quran. While obeying Allah's command, Muhammad (sm) was allowed to do nothing without the guidance of our One and ONLY source ALLAH.

So, when Quran commands us to follow the messenger, it actually indicates both Quran, and the part of the WAHY not included in the Quran but embedded in the practice of Muhammd (sm).

My conclusive equation was like this (now somewhat moderated)

Following Muhammad (sm)
= Following WAHY
= Following (QURAN+the Part of the WAHY not included in the QURAN but embedded in the practice of Muhammd (sm))
= Following QURAN+ Following Part of the WAHY not included in the Quran but embedded in the practice of Muhammd (sm)

If Allah says that you must obey the messenger to get Allah's love (in return of your love for Allah) and Guidance, HE actually says that you must follow Muhammad (sm) in full, comprising of What he gave to us as a book, and what he did and said (as guided by Allah, see 7203), not included in the QURAN but embedded in his practice.

Now, brother, you will get an explanation for the following Ayat
1644(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

antibhondo

This is why I requested rahenijaat1 to study on the formation of madhabs and collection of ahadiths. Imam Hanifa (80 ? 148 AH) and Imam Shafii (135-188 AH) did not base on any formal ahadith collection. Imam Malik (93? 179 AH) & Imam Hambal (164-241 AH) had their own collections. Imam Bukhari's life span was 196-256AH.

Would you please have a study on how Imam Hanifa and Imam Shafii formed their madhabs? If they did not follow any BOOKS of Ahadith, why do you say that people accepting the thoughts of these Imams are following the authors of Ahadiths?

AND BROTHER, please remember. THERE IS NO AUTHOR OF AHADITHS. THERE ARE AHADITH COLLECTORS. AND, NO ONE IS here FOLLOWING ANY COLLECTORS.

Yes. It was a very good example to mention in this context. And you are absolutely right. It is a command of GOD uttered by Muhammad (sm). And yes, if I obey what is behind "qul=say" I obey the prophete and The GOD.

So, this is simple. Now tell me one thing. After you accept the Quran as something definitely from Allah, do you at all need to hear the command as a man's command? We have already got many direct commands in the Quran. If I could obey those commands without even thinking of obeying any man, why Allah needed some commands uttered by the messenger and then command us to obey this messenger?

Brother, every command is from Allah, and obeying every command necessarily means "obeying Allah". Again, if you obey just Allah (obey & follow the clear guidelines described by the Quran), you are automatically doing exactly what the messenger did. If this is what Allah wanted by commanding to obey & follow the messenger, then there was no need to command to obey & follow the messenger.

Do you notice this dilemma, brother???

Simply speaking, if people acknowledges the message as from Allah's, and if it is true that obeying ONLY Allah is the main message, and the message is clear, and already sufficiently detailed, then there is no need to command people to obey and follow the bearer of the message (the main aim of which is to make people obey ONLY ALLAH). Since people have already acknowledged the messages as from Allah's, then the believer will of course obey the message, thus clearly obeying Allah. NO INTERMEDIARY is needed here.

And if they do not acknowledge the message from Allah's, then the command of obeying & following the messenger is simply meaningless.

So, in both cases, the command for obeying Allah is meaningless...

Do you notice this dilemma???

Just a correction

So, in both cases, the command for obeying messenger is meaningless...

abdalquran

No it's not meaningless because of 8/20

Athiullah Obey Allah
Wa Athiur Rasool and obey the messenger
Wa laa tawallau ANHU and do not turn away from HIM
wa antum tasma3oon while you hear

So we got 2 obediences but one person (anHU not anhuMA) not to turn away from. Which source is that? The one we HEAR (tasma3oon). So thats Quran's rationale for the 2 obediences. Today, we can still enact that process by reciting the ayat to each other.

Sorry antibhondo, no dice.

Prince

No it's not meaningless because of 8/20

Athiullah Obey Allah
Wa Athiur Rasool and obey the messenger
Wa laa tawallau ANHU and do not turn away from HIM
wa antum tasma3oon while you hear

So we got 2 obediences but one person (anHU not anhuMA) not to turn away from. Which source is that? The one we HEAR (tasma3oon). So thats Quran's rationale for the 2 obediences. Today, we can still enact that process by reciting the ayat to each other.

Sorry antibhondo, no dice.

Check mate. Nice observation!!

antibhondo

No it's not meaningless because of 8/20

Athiullah Obey Allah
Wa Athiur Rasool and obey the messenger
Wa laa tawallau ANHU and do not turn away from HIM
wa antum tasma3oon while you hear

So we got 2 obediences but one person (anHU not anhuMA) not to turn away from. Which source is that? The one we HEAR (tasma3oon). So thats Quran's rationale for the 2 obediences. Today, we can still enact that process by reciting the ayat to each other.

Sorry antibhondo, no dice.

Abdalquran

Assalamu Alaikum.

I am sorry I could not make myself clear.

The main point is very simple.
If A is to be obeyed, and if A sends a clear command, then after the message reached to you

you are clearly obeying only A
you are not obying B who was the bearer, and
in fact, you don't need to obey B. You just need to receive the message from him.

So, any command of obeying B is unncessary, because the main point is to obey A, and just through following the message/command you can easily obey A.

Whether you are also obeying B by following the mesage is simply irrelevant.

I repeat, the main point is to obey A, and without any intermediary, we can obey A. The question of obeying anyone else is irrelevant.

YOU CAN REALLY CHECKMATE BY DOING ONLY ONE THING

PROVE THAT "OBEY B IS NECESSARY", and WITHOUT OBEYING B "OBEY A" IS NOT SATISFIABLE._________________________________________________________

abdalquran

Antibhondo, your logical gymnastics aside, can you please address the point

Why was 'obey Allah' AND 'obey the messenger' BOTH mentioned here yet when it comes to TURNING AWAY, its turn away from HIM (and not BOTH of them) while you HEAR? Who did you hear? Presumably not God but the messenger. So if this is the case, why is both of the obediences mentioned here.

Tell you what, denial is a powerful thing so I will add another aya for good measure

And AN ANNOUNCEMENT from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage.. (9/3)

ONE announcement. Did Allah make the announcement? I hope you don't think so

The messenger made the announcment but the aya says AN announcement from Allah and his messenger. Not an announcement from Allah explained by his messenger.

The Quran is very clear on this issue. Obeying Allah and obeying the messenger are the same thing. 4/80 also consolidates this.

While your logic denies the need for Quran say 'obey B', the Quran itself does not see it that way, hence it merges the two obediences into one, 'wa laa tawallau ANHU'. Did Allah make a grammatical mistake here?

Mazhar

And the Ayat I already mentioned above
1644(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

What do you think Allah meant by this Ayat???

And We have sent the Reminder/Awakener/Record Holder of infolded facts-Grand Qur'aan to you, the Messenger , so that you may make distinct/vivid/crystal clear for the people/humanity what has successively been sent upon/for them and so that they may objectively reflect and ponder.

Grand Qur'aan was communicated to people of that time NOT as a bound book containing all that which had since been conveyed at a given point in time. The Messenger was the Record Holder of all that which had been conveyed to him uptil a certain point in time. He was explaining and clarifying to people a point with the help of other passages since received by him.

Just read about prohibitions about meat and blood. And then a clarification through him in 6145 with reference to the entire communication made to him regarding the prohibitions.

rahenijaat1

Allah's Message is "Al-Quraan".

"Allah it is who has sent down the Book with truth and the Balance. " (Al-Shoora-17)

The Messenger's Message is "Al-Quraan".

"And he (the Messenger) who has brought The Truth (The Message)." (Al-Zamur-33)

So, it is proved from Allah's Quraan---that Allah's Message is "The Message" that He sent,
and The Messenger's Message is "The Message" that he brought--
that is why "Obedience to Allah" and "Obedience to the Messenger" are the same thing, because both the things are the same.

"He who obeys the Messenger (means obeys The Message), has indeed obeyed Allah (means obeyed The Message He sent)." (Al-Nisa-80)

"Al-Quraan" is the only thing which makes "Obedience to Allah" and "Obedience to the Messenger"---one thing.

Allah ordered the momineen to "obey the Messenger (S)", only when the Messenger (S) was given "The Message (Al-Quraan)".

With "The Message", came the order of "Atee-ur-Rasool".
It clearly means that "Atee-ur-Rasool" is connected with The Message (Al-Quraan).

Vamoo

And authenticating what is between my hands of the Torah, and
to make lawful some of that which was made unlawful to you;
and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware
of God and obey me.

And Aaron said to them before My people, you are being tested
with it. Your Lord is the Almighty, so follow me and obey my
command!

The people of Noah disbelieved the messengers.
Their brother Noah said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
"I am an honest messenger to you.
"You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

`Aad disbelieved the messengers.
Their brother Hood said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
"I am an honest messenger to you.
"You shall reverence GOD, and obey me.

Thamoud disbelieved the messengers.
Their brother Saaleh said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
"I am an honest messenger to you.
"You shall reverence GOD, and obey me.

The people of Lot disbelieved the messengers.
Their brother Lot said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
"I am an honest messenger to you.
"You shall reverence GOD, and obey me.

The People of the Woods disbelieved the messengers.
Shu`aib said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
"I am an honest messenger to you.
"You shall reverence GOD, and obey me.

All the prophets probably said the exact same thing. So where is this sunnah of Jesus, Moses, Aaron, Lut, Shu'aib, Saaleh, 'Aad, Noah etc. that you claim to follow?

Abu_Laptop

Given that when it comes to matters of Shari'a or even 'ibadaat, you guys are always 'debating' on what does it mean to ''cut'' the thiefs hands ? Is it literal, metaphorical as in cut off the ressources or is it as some have suggested, to put a mark on the thiefs hands so people know he's a thief? Same thing for Salat, Zakaat, Pilgrimmage, Qiblaa, day of Jumu'aa, Zina, Jihad, etc ... Doesn't that in itself contradict your claim that the Qur'an is clear and easy to understand?

abdalquran

It would if it wasn't for 56/79-80. Maybe we're not the purified.