A simple argument regarding the Quran's being clear
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Or maybe, it's because we turned on our heels and rejected everything that has to do with the authentic-prophetic-tradition.
After all, Muhammad (sala lahu 'alayhi wa salam) ain't just a delivery man who's sole duty is to deliver the package and leave. He was sent to Mankind to recite to them their Lord's Message, AND to explain it for them.
1644
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Ah maybe you're right. I would like to get the Prophet's guidance please. Can you please tell me the meaning of alif laam meem?
and bro, don't rip up verses just to prove your point. These words arent just passing comments. Quote the verse in FULL please.
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Ah maybe you're right. I would like to get the Prophet's guidance please. Can you please tell me the meaning of alif laam meem?
and bro, don't rip up verses just to prove your point. These words arent just passing comments. Quote the verse in FULL please.
Many Tafasseer have been suggested for the meaning Of alif laam meem, but none of the MuFasseereen have claimed absolute 'correctness' about it. They made their ijtihaad and their ultimate conclusion is a very modest one 'Allah Knows Best'.
However when we get to issues such as the above mentionned ones, be it Salat, Zakat or anything else ibaada-related or Shar'ii-related, where we do actually have authentic data dealing with these topics; transmitted to us by the same trusthworthy ones from whom we got this Qur'an al-Kareem... Is it the same?
If there exist no prophetic commentary on a given verse, Oke ! If it's an unauthentic one, Oke! If it's a doubtfull one, Oke ! But when the actual information exists and it's authentic ... Why shall we prefer our own interpretation/understnding of a given ayaat over that of the prophet ? Makes no sense! To turn on our heels in such a fashion.
Salat for instances has been transmitted to us by a much more Muttawatir narration than the Qur'an itself. Because, since the very beginning of the Prophet's mission, from the moment Salat was prescribed upon the muslims up to this day, everyone knew how to perform Salaat But, not everyone had memorised the Qur'an, the whole of it, by heart.
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Many Tafasseer have been suggested for the meaning Of alif laam meem, but none of the MuFasseereen have claimed absolute 'correctness' about it. They made their ijtihaad and their ultimate conclusion is a very modest one 'Allah Knows Best'.
Sorry that's not good enough. I don't really care what the exegetes think or how modest they are. I want the PROPHETS GUIDANCE. What did HE say this refers to?
How could the sahaba listen to him reciting alif laam meem, alif laam ra, ha meem, qaf , noon, etc without asking him what it means.
How could Allah give him signs only Allah knows the meanings to?
Please, explain what the PROPHET said.
However when we get to issues such as the above mentionned ones, be it Salat, Zakat or anything else ibaada-related or Shar'ii-related, where we do actually have authentic data dealing with these topics; transmitted to us by the same trusthworthy ones from whom we got this Qur'an al-Kareem... Is it the same?
Except for one small problem even then you people cannot agree. Tell me, would you pray behind a Shia imam?
If there exist no prophetic commentary on a given verse, Oke ! If it's an unauthentic one, Oke! If it's a doubtfull one, Oke ! But when the actual information exists and it's authentic ... Why shall we prefer our own interpretation/understnding of a given ayaat over that of the prophet ? Makes no sense! To turn on our heels in such a fashion.
Who determines authenticity?
Salat for instances has been transmitted to us by a much more Muttawatir narration than the Qur'an itself. Because, since the very beginning of the Prophet's mission, from the moment Salat was prescribed upon the muslims up to this day, everyone knew how to perform Salaat But, not everyone had memorised the Qur'an, the whole of it, by heart.
And still you ppl can't agree on its performance
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and bro, don't rip up verses just to prove your point. These words arent just passing comments. Quote the verse in FULL please.
I quoted verse 44 from Surat al-Nahl. May I ask what's wrong with my quotation of it ? If you want to add the verse that comes before it, or the one that comes after it. Do so! Especially, if you think it might add to our understanding of it.
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You did not quote 16/44 in full. You started with 'wa anzalna ilaika'. It starts with 'bil bayyinat wa az-zuboor'...
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You did not quote 16/44 in full. You started with 'wa anzalna ilaika'. It starts with 'bil bayyinat wa az-zuboor'...
And how does that part affect the understanding of the new sentence that begins right after it, which I've quotes?
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// I want the PROPHETS GUIDANCE. What did HE say this refers to? //
I havn't come across any data that explains this ayaat directly from the Prophet. You're making me repeat myself, read me.
//How could the sahaba listen to him reciting alif laam meem, alif laam ra, ha meem, qaf , noon, etc without asking him what it means.//
Well, perhaps it was pretty clear for them. or perhaps the information just didn't survive and we lost some preciouss gems. In all cases, each one of us will have his say regarding the meaning of these ''mysteriouss letters''. Some say it's a code, the code 19 as they call it. As for I, I tend to believe that Allah by beginning these Suraats with letters such as alif, meem, kaaf, nuun ... It is as if He's telling to the people ''Can you produce something like it, there it is, you have been given the means to prove My Claim wrong if you wish to, arabic alphabet letters are yours too''. Seems you still don't get my point. May I ask you to reformulate my point just to be sure if you're following me and if you've grasped anything of what I'm saying ?
//How could Allah give him signs only Allah knows the meanings to? //
Many of the ''scientific'' components of the Qur'an, only began to be understood in our contemporary era, it could be that it wasn't meant for them but for the futur generation. Or it could be He explained it to His messenger but the info just didn't survive. My position is a more nuanced one then what you try to make it sound like. I ain't saying ''only Allah knows its meaning'', rather I've said ''and Allah knows best''.
//Except for one small problem even then you people cannot agree. Tell me, would you pray behind a Shia imam? //
I wouldn't pray behind a shiaa imam not because the way they perform prayer is wrong, but because of the 'Aqeeda the Imam has is wrong.
//Who determines authenticity? //
Those well grounded in Knowledge, past and present day.
//And still you ppl can't agree on its performance P//
You know, even thought there's an incredible hate between shia and sunni, when it comes to Salaat and the way to perform it, there's no much wrong with the way the shia do it. After all, they believe in 5 daily obligatory prayers which they perform, made up of the exact same amount of ruku' and sujuud, the wajiibat part for a Salat to be valid is done by them, as for other details, then at best it could be argued that it is mustaHab or Makrooh.
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And how does that part affect the understanding of the new sentence that begins right after it, which I've quotes?
'bil bayyinat' (with clarifications) show that the tibyan (in the word lituBAYYINu) is through the Quranic ayat themselves. See 98/1-3 the bayyinah is equated with the rasul rehearing from the purified pages.
Therefore, the clarifcations given by the rasool in 16/44 are through the Quran, not other than that. 2/242 also shows Allah clarifying (yubayyinu Allahu lakum ayatih). Once again, this is not through hadith.
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I havn't come across any data that explains this ayaat directly from the Prophet. You're making me repeat myself, read me.
Thanks for your honesty but I'm afraid then you have failed. If the Prophet left no data regarding the muqata'at, then he did not explain the Quran fully. If i was a sahaba and he recited 'alif laam meem, dhalikal kitab la raiba fih' (2/2), I would ask him what it meant.
Well, perhaps it was pretty clear for them. or perhaps the information just didn't survive and we lost some preciouss gems. In all cases, each one of us will have his say regarding the meaning of these ''mysteriouss letters''. Some say it's a code, the code 19 as they call it. As for I, I tend to believe that Allah by beginning these Suraats with letters such as alif, meem, kaaf, nuun ... It is as if He's telling to the people ''Can you produce something like it, there it is, you have been given the means to prove My Claim wrong if you wish to, arabic alphabet letters are yours too''. Seems you still don't get my point. May I ask you to reformulate my point just to be sure if you're following me and if you've grasped anything of what I'm saying ?
I get what you're saying - we each have our say but this is a cop out. Reason being, you claimed Rasulullah is the mubayyin of the Quran. If he was, then he failed us. I got no problem with notion that I need to figure out the muqata'at (and indeed the whole Quran) on my own.
Many of the ''scientific'' components of the Qur'an, only began to be understood in our contemporary era, it could be that it wasn't meant for them but for the futur generation. Or it could be He explained it to His messenger but the info just didn't survive. My position is a more nuanced one then what you try to make it sound like. I ain't saying ''only Allah knows its meaning'', rather I've said ''and Allah knows best''.
Aha, interesting you say 'the info didnt SURVIVE'. So who failed us in this case?
I wouldn't pray behind a shiaa imam not because the way they perform prayer is wrong, but because of the 'Aqeeda the Imam has is wrong.
Ok but they say your aqeeda is wrong for rejected the imams of ahl al bayt. How do we know whose aqeeda is correct?
Say for example, do you believe Allah has two hands?
Those well grounded in Knowledge, past and present day
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The same folks who didn't preserve information about the scientific verses? The same folks who don't have a definition for 'ijma' or even 'sahaba'? Hardly grounded in knowledge....You know, even thought there's an incredible hate between shia and sunni, when it comes to Salaat and the way to perform it, there's no much wrong with the way the shia do it. After all, they believe in 5 daily obligatory prayers which they perform, made up of the exact same amount of ruku' and sujuud, the wajiibat part for a Salat to be valid is done by them, as for other details, then at best it could be argued that it is mustaHab or Makrooh.
You're right, there's not MUCH difference in how Sunnis and Shia do it. The thing is, did Allah give an imprecise instruction to the Prophet when he ascended to the heavens to get the 50 prayers a day? I would think not. If there is a single method of salah, it would be proliferant. It wouldn't need a latter day sect coming along and claiming to have the authentic method.