Mushu's thoughts on hajj
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There is no need for a black/white approach, from either side.
The very fact one is having a HJJ is promoting AQ, or at least a certain % of it.
If you then set parameters/activities/etc of HJJ using AQ, then again, you will be promoting AQ, directly or indirectly.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "promotion of AQ".
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There is no need for a black/white approach, from either side.
To be fair, I wasn't looking for a black/white answer to this.
The very fact one is having a HJJ is promoting AQ, or at least a certain % of it.
If you then set parameters/activities/etc of HJJ using AQ, then again, you will be promoting AQ, directly or indirectly.
Either way, you're using aq. I don't want to argue for the sake of it, as I actually think we agree on this. I was questioning the idea that hijjul-bait could be done without aq, which is what I believe Jafar was suggesting.
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Either way, you're using aq. I don't want to argue for the sake of it, as I actually think we agree on this. I was questioning the idea that hijjul-bait could be done without aq, which is what I believe Jafar was suggesting.
Correct..
- Many "Goodness" can be done without AQ.
As evidenced by the stories found within AQ.
How many "Good people" done many "Good deeds" without AQ. - AQ is NOT THE ONLY SOURCE of Goodness / Knowledge / Guidance / Wisdom.
God is just and kind he gives and share His wisdom to everyone / every people through different means and context.
Read "The seed parable" as found in the AQ.
"Al bait THE PLACE OF GATHERINGS should be a place of guidance for mankind because it promotes the teachings of al kitab GOODNESS AND WISDOM through the hajj FESTIVAL invitation that goes out to everyone."
Salam / Peace
- Many "Goodness" can be done without AQ.
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"Al bait THE PLACE OF GATHERINGS should be a place of guidance for mankind because it promotes the teachings of al kitab GOODNESS AND WISDOM through the hajj FESTIVAL invitation that goes out to everyone."
Not sure why you're crossing out those terms, when those terms are used in aq...
What is your understanding of al bait? You've replaced it as 'place of gathering', yet haven't explained why. Could you explain why al bait = place of gathering and also why you think al bait is described as a guidance for the worlds in aq?
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Not sure why you're crossing out those terms, when those terms are used in aq...
What is your understanding of al bait? You've replaced it as 'place of gathering', yet haven't explained why. Could you explain why al bait = place of gathering and also why you think al bait is described as a guidance for the worlds in aq?
Al Bait = Literally THE HOUSE contextual meanings PLACE OF GATHERINGS
Hajj = GATHERING/FESTIVALReason for crossing out those two words. Is an alias from 'arabic terms'.
It's much better to communicate to people using their own language rather than 'foreign language' to avoid any misunderstanding.Now regarding "Al Bait at Bakka a.k.a The House at Bakka", I believe it refers to historical ancient site
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BaalbekWhere it used to be 'the place of gatherings' for many nations as it's situated along the busiest trade route of ancient times within middle east region.
That is what makes the place 'strategically important' to the 'conqueror', because people from many nations used to gather there. It is one of the compelling reasons why the Greeks and the Romans build a temple of their gods on it. In hope that people of many nations shall turn to 'their official religion' and as thus fell under their 'sphere of influence'.
The place indeed has shifted from it's original intention of "PLACE OF GATHERINGS" where many nations (but not all nations) could seek peace, wisdom and guidance into yet another sectarian temple of worship to the gods. Before it's destruction and desolation in 300 AD by 'christian' roman emperors. As it was regarded that the place has become a 'temple of idols'.
Nevertheless the actual location for "place of gatherings" is not important, it could be anywhere and it could also be spread regionally to make it easier for people to go and gather there.
Salam / Peace
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Al Bait = Literally THE HOUSE contextual meanings PLACE OF GATHERINGS
Okay, but why do you believe al bait = place of gathering?
Also, why does place of gathering = guidance for the worlds?
Reason for crossing out those two words. Is an alias from 'arabic terms'.
Yes, I gathered as much but you're not explaining why you're choosing to translate those words the way you are. I can't see the evidence for making al bait = place of gathering. Nor have you accounted for why al bait is described as guidance for the worlds. How can a place of gathering guide anyone? What happens when there is no gathering at that place, does it stop guiding people?
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Okay, but why do you believe al bait = place of gathering?
As the name implied; 'the house', there should be people there.
Otherwise it's useless.. an abandoned 'house'..Also, why does place of gathering = guidance for the worlds?
Yes, I gathered as much but you're not explaining why you're choosing to translate those words the way you are. I can't see the evidence for making al bait = place of gathering. Nor have you accounted for why al bait is described as guidance for the worlds. How can a place of gathering guide anyone?Let's take a glimpse on how Abraham lived.. from other sources..
He set his house (bayt) as a free hotel & lodging for travelers passing by.
Within, any traveler from any nations / sects / beliefs could find a safe refuge, free meal with merely 'payment' of listening to the host (Abraham) while he speaks during the dinner. Of course the guest can post his questions or propose his own idea (as part of the discussion). And from the Quran, Bible and other sources, I can say that Abraham is a 'logical/critical thinker', oralist with very good skills on proposing and presenting his ideas.This 'exchange of ideas' and knowledge during such gathering could enlighten people gathered there and apply those 'ideas' he got from such gathering to live a good or better lives.
What happens when there is no gathering at that place, does it stop guiding people?
Of course. how do you harvest wheat when there's no wheat in the field?
Salam / Peace
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As the name implied; 'the house', there should be people there.
Otherwise it's useless.. an abandoned 'house'..A house doesn't have to have people there. And yes, an abandoned house is still a house. You still haven't explained to me how you came to the conclusion that al bait = place of gathering. Do you have any quranic evidence?
And again you've ignored my question as to how a place of gathering = a guidance for the worlds. Please could you provide some quranic evidence/reasoning as to why you think a place of gathering acts as a guidance for the worlds.
Let's take a glimpse on how Abraham lived.. from other sources..
Not interested. Please use quran to explain how a place of gathering = guidance for the worlds.
Of course. how do you harvest wheat when there's no wheat in the field?
No idea.
This is becoming somewhat repetitive because you are unable to justify your position using aq.
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This is becoming somewhat repetitive because you are unable to justify your position using aq.
This is the main issue on YOU then..
A typical Quran cultist reaction, as I have suspected before..
In either case dear Mushu, You have the rights to your own opinion as I have mine..My main point is this
THERE ARE WISDOM OUTSIDE THE QURAN AND GOD DOESN'T NEED THE QURAN TO TEACH WISDOM OR GIVES ENLIGHTENING/REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE TO ITS CREATION.Again you are entitled to your own opinion as there are no compulsory in belief, truth stands out clear from error.
Salam / Peace
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This is the main issue on YOU then..
There's an issue on me? I hope it's not a big issue, I have a bad back...
A typical Quran cultist reaction, as I have suspected before..
Yea, using quran to define terms is pretty cultist. Guilty as charged.
In either case dear Mushu, You have the rights to your own opinion as I have mine..
Of course. Difference is I tried to back my opinion with aq whereas your opinion was based on thin air. Don't get me wrong, thin air is great, I'm sure it has its uses, but I tend to not accept it for discerning haqq from baatil.
My main point is this
THERE ARE WISDOM OUTSIDE THE QURAN AND GOD DOESN'T NEED THE QURAN TO TEACH WISDOM OR GIVES ENLIGHTENING/REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE TO ITS CREATION.Indeed, and you've gone to great lengths to repeat this at every opportunity. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with what I was asking from you.
Again you are entitled to your own opinion as there are no compulsory in belief, truth stands out clear from error.
Clearly not for some.
Anyway, no hard feelings. If you ever do manage to figure out how a place of gathering = guidance for the worlds using the quran I'll be very interested in what you have to say.
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- Waatimmoo alhajja waalAAumratalillahi fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara minaalhadyi wala tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu faman kana minkum mareedanaw bihi athan min ra/sihi fafidyatun min siyaminaw sadaqatin aw nusukin fa-itha amintum famantamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji famaistaysara mina alhadyi faman lam yajid fasiyamuthalathati ayyamin fee alhajji wasabAAatin itharajaAAtum tilka AAasharatun kamilatun thalika limanlam yakun ahluhu hadiree almasjidi alharamiwaittaqoo Allaha waiAAlamoo anna Allahashadeedu alAAiqabi
The verse 2196 ends with - this is for those whose family is not present at al masjid al haram. Be conscientious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
I was speaking to abdalquran earlier and he said something that made a lot of sense to me regarding the end of the above verse.
I originally read it as a command for a person to fast or give a donation if their family failed to fulfil hijjul-bait, as a means of purifying themselves. As I mentioned before, I couldn't find any other instance where one is told to fast for one's family or friends.
The verse seems to read better when you understand that it isn't a command for the person who made it to hijjul-bait, but a command to the community who has not established masjid al haram or al bait in their area.
thalika limanlam yakun ahluhu hadiree almasjidi alharami
Fasting is prescribed to ahluhu 'his people' who have yet to establish masjid al haram i.e. those people who have not established the deen in their region and thus have no al bait to travel to.
So I render the verse as below (note I've left the bit I don't understand untranslated)
2196 Complete al hajj and al umrah for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation. wala tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu. Whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until al hajj, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation. If one cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during al hajj and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose people have not yet established al masjid al haram. Be conscientious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
My understanding is that if you live in a region where the deen has not been established i.e. you have not established al masjid al haram, then it follows that you will not have al bait in your region. Allah is saying that you do not need to spend a small fortune to travel to al bait of another region, instead you should fast/offer donations until you establish al masjid al haram and al bait in your region.
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Its best to read this from the call itself, in 2/183
183-184 general command to fast/stop indulgence
185 an intense connectivity with quran (shahr ramadhan)
186 God's closeness during this period
187 break from fast stipulations
188 social ethics
189 timing for hajj
190-194 conflict rules
195 general philosophy of action
196 general philosophy of hajj (end goal is m-a-h because of the phrase mushy quoted above)
197 tips on hajj, here we can see hajj is fi3l al-khayr (habitully creating choice)
198-200 general work and how it fits in with the mission
201-207 attitudes with respect to the mission.
hope the breakdown helps, Hajji Mushy P
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Here is my rendering
And complete the HJJ/conference/festival and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented (from doing this), then (give) what is affordable/easy of donation/gift, and do not relieve your heads/chiefs (of this duty) until the donation reaches its permitted/lawful place; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction of/from his chief/head (thus cannot give hdy/gift), then exchange/redeem by fasting or charity or observance/rite. So when safe/able (thus can undertake HJJ/visit), then whoever enjoyed with the visit to the HJJ, then (give) what is affordable of donation; but whoever cannot find anything, then fast for three days during/in the HJJ and seven when you return; this will make a complete ten; that is for one whose family/people are not present (at) the inviolable/restricted time of acknowledgement/SJD. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
Note how it says "enjoyed with the visit to the HJJ" making HJJ=pilgrimage problematic, hence the manipulated translations for this part.
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Peace Wakas,
peace Bro Mushu,
Re al bayt place of gathering
You may wish to look into 1435-37 and 2125-128.
Thanks. I did mention these verses in the OP, and were incorporated into my general understanding of what al bait is.
Bro, how do you use m-a-h in 928?
O you who believe, indeed the mushrikuuna are impure, so let them not yaqrabu the inviolable/restricted time of acknowledgement/SJD after their hadha. If you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
I understand yaqrubu to mean approach or come near. How can you prevent mushrikuun from coming near a time period?
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Peace Mushu,
The inviolable time of acknowledgement is a finite time/period applied over a certain area, e.g. al bayt. Since some of the mushrikeen broke their end of the treaty (see early chapter 9), they are not welcome to participate and/or no treaty will be entered into with them during this time, why? because they have proven themselves to be insincere and will violate it regardless of sanctity of the period etc. Just like the believers were hindered from it, so too will the mushrikeen/polytheists for what they done. Less people coming to the area means less trade, hence the concern of poverty mentioned, which would have been a natural reaction.
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Hello Mushu, others, Salaam
With the use of logic and reason we should be able to zero in on the correct interpretation of these quranic concepts insha allah.
Now that we have Mushu on this with his matter of fact no-nonsense razor sharp logical approach, we should see rapid progress )
My humble thoughts which differ slightly from the others
Abraham raised the foundations FROM al-bait, proving it is not a physical building but an institution based on al-quran.
Al-bait al-haram inviolable HOUSE (institution) similar to HOUSE of Representatives based on al-quran and incorporating al-quran ---> guidance for mankind
Al-masjid al-haram inviolable INSTITUTION (not time) OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT similar to Senate; based on al-quran since it is "the truth from our Lord".
No one can stop ANYONE from entering or getting near a time period.
People can however be stopped from becoming part of an institution.
Al-bait al-haram and al-masjid al-haram have distribution of powers for checks and balances similar to Senate and House of Representatives (USA). Both are institutions; one is inviolable house the other inviolable institution of acknowledgment both based on al-quran.
Al-bait can be in one location (central) and al-masjid al-haram WHEREVER we are, in every city etc. The location of al-bait can change in different times. There can be more than one al-bait at the same time also based on al-quran but it doesn't have to be wherever we are. For example there could be one in every continent or every country.
Hajj FESTIVAL/FEAST similar to the hagg sukkot; involves sacrifice of animals and feeding the poor and needy and celebrating the harvest (benefits to mankind from God).
God knows human psychology more than anyone. Use festival/feast to attract people to al-bait so people can witness the benefits of an institution based on al-quran and the benefits from the harvest.
Bait them to al-bait ) .... couldn't resist the inter lingual word play
People are invited WITH hajj/festival/feast to al-bait
Eager to see how my interpretation stands up to the razor sharp sword/logic of Mushu &
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Wakas, peace
2196 proves "al masjid al haram" is delimited.
2144, 2149-150 ---> AMAH to be made goal/target wherever you are so not delimited
2144 and 2149 ----> AMAH is the truth from your Lord so not delimited
2148 --------------> AMAH implied to fall under good deeds so not delimitedLet's assume you are right about 2196
Even then AMAH is still "the inviolable institution of acknowledgment for a certain time period" and not inviolable time of acknowledgment.
The inviolable time of acknowledgment would be the four al-ashhur al-haram.
The inviolable institution of acknowledgment will be "inviolable" only for 4 al-ashhur al-haram and then maybe it will not be inviolable (doubt it though per 2144-150), but still remains institution of acknowledgment and not time of acknowledgment.
Grammatical problems also. Masjid does not indicate "time" but the al-haram part might indicate a time period because of al-ashhur al-haram. So according to your interpretation it would be "the masjid/institution of sujud which is inviolable for a certain time period" and not "inviolable time of sujud".
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peace quantum,
Those references do not prove/disprove anything, as they can be explained.
But I would say, for me there are only two options. My view used to be similar to yours, and is one option, but upon recent review the more likely is as I mentioned. I am still writing my article, so hopefully my view should be made clearer once published.
Also "masjid" can mean "time of SJD". There is no grammatical problem AFAIK.
