Mushu's thoughts on hajj

Mushu

This might be a repetition of thoughts already found here on FM, so I apologize in advanced if this post turns out to be boring. I think there are a lot of older discussions about hajj which don't turn up in the search function, possibly because they are archived?

My argument is that

Masjid al haram is an institution.
Al bait is an establishment which is linked to masjid al haram which promotes al quran at the annual hajj.
Al bait is comparable to al quran in that we have many copies of al quran so we can have many 'copies' of al bait around the world, making hajj universal.
Al kaba is al bait of Arabia and used to fulfil the hajj during the time of the Prophet but has since become a pagan-esque event.

2227 Call out to the people (an-naas) with al-hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.

2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.

First and foremost we can conclude that the 'hajj' that we see today does not fulfil the quranic criteria. Firstly, the invitation goes out only to the Muslims of the world, whereas the quran commands us to call 'the people'. Also, there should be some form of benefit to the people, which is difficult to see in the hajj of today. The rituals take up most of the hajj experience, including circling the black house, running between the two mountains and stoning the satan pillars, to mention a few. What benefit does mankind witness from this?

397 In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Hajj to the house is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.

I will provide my thoughts for the above verse in more detail later, but I want to concentrate on ?hajj to the house is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it?. In reality, the majority of the muslims do not have the means, either because they cannot afford the journey or because of the quota restrictions that must be set by the hajj organisers. So what seems to be the exception in quran is actually the norm in today's reality. Whereas the quran suggests that the majority should have access to hajj, we see today that only the minority have access, due to the aforementioned reasons. This is further evidence that the hajj we see today does not fulfil the criteria set by al quran.

Here are my reflections on the verses of quran regarding this topic.

Masjid al haram

Institute of obedience of the sacred. I consider this a state institution which has the authority to determine social policies. It is not a holy site nor a physical structure. Please see

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11674.0

We can prove that masjid al haram is not a physical building or a site, but an institution.

Al bait

2124 Abraham was tested by commands from His Lord, which he completed. He said, "I will make you a leader for the people." He said, "Also from my progeny?" He said, "My pledge will not encompass the wicked."

2125 And when We made al bait to be a place of return for an-naas and a security and said ?take from the standing (maqaami) of Abraham a place of salla (musallan)?. We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael, "You shall purify My bait for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."

2126 Abraham said, "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever acknowledges God and the Last day." He said, "As for he who does not appreciate, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the fire, what a miserable destiny!"

The theme of universal benefits are clear in these verses. Ibraheem is made the imam of people, not merely believers or muslims. The account of Ibraheem in al quran is of a beautiful human being, kind, compassionate and upright, an excellent example for all humans to follow. Allah made al bait a returning place for an-naas (the people). So again, the theme of universal invitation is hinted here.

The mention of al bait in 2125 and a town in 2126 strongly suggests that al bait is actually a place that must be visited or journeyed to. I think the theme is strong enough to dismiss any metaphorical interpretation of al bait. That's not to say al bait is a physical structure, rather it must be established somewhere so people can visit it.

Note, that hajj is not mentioned in these verses, although the foundations seem to be there.

396 The first bait established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.

'Awwala' can be translated as 'first' or 'foremost' but the implication is the same either way that the bait in Bakka was the first and thus not the only. By using the word awwal, the quran suggests that other 'baitun' were established after the bait in Bakka.

397 Feehi ayatun bayyinatun maqamu ibraheema waman dakhalahu kana aminanwalillahi AAala alnnasi hijjualbayti mani istataAAa ilayhi sabeelan waman kafarafa-inna Allaha ghaniyyun AAani alAAalameena

I've provided the transliteration for the above for a reason. It is commonly translated as ?In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.?

Note the tense of the given translation, it is present/future tense. However, the verbs in the above verse are all past tense. The verb 'dakhala' is a perfect verb i.e. 'entered'. The word 'kaana' that follows also denotes past tense and gives the effect 'would'. A more literal translation would be

In it are clear signs standing (miqam) of Abraham. Whoever entered it would be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can find a way to it. Whoever disbelieved, and then God has no need of the worlds.?

We should be careful here. Allah very often uses past tense to refer to present continuous situations in the quran. There may be an argument to translate 397 as present future. However, given the flow of the two verses, I believe it should be considered past tense

396 The first bait established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.

397 In it are clear signs standing (miqam) of Abraham. Whoever entered it would be secure. Hajj to al bait is a duty from God for the people who can find a way to it. Whoever disbelieved, and then God has no need of the worlds.?

In 396 the quran talks about the first bait that was established i.e. something that has already happened, past tense. If this flow continues to 397, it is sensible to keep the bait in the past tense. Why is this important? Because traditionalists believe that Bakka is Mecca and by keeping the verse in present/future it helps convince people that Mecca is still the destination for hajj.

There is also another theme to explore in these two verses. In 396 the subject of the verse is the bait, and it is described as a guidance for the worlds. Interestingly, the only other thing that is described as a guidance for the world is al kitab (quran, injeel, taurat etc)

2159, 2185, 34, 544, 546; 12111,1664 etc.

So how can al bait be a guidance for mankind? How can a physical structure guide anyone? And how come it is described using a phrase used exclusively to refer to the Scripture of Allah? The strongest conclusion is that what this bait represents is the guidance found in al kitab. Al bait is an establishment of some sort that allows people to witness the guidance found in quran and the deen of Islam. The first of these baitun was in Bakkah. It makes perfect sense because al quran is a book that requires study which many people can not or do not want to attempt. By having an annual, live example of some of the teachings of al quran you make the message accessible to people who otherwise would be left in the dark.

This leads to another point regarding the importance of a particular site. Traditionalists will argue that there is only one bait, and it is found in Mecca. Aside from the fact that Bakka is not Mecca, the exclusivity of one site can be refuted by the above two verses. The obvious one is that Allah referred to the bait in Bakka as the first, and thus implies that baitun were established after it.

Secondly, by realizing that al bait is actually an establishment that promotes and allows people to witness al kitab/al quran, we can deduce that there must be more than one bait. Although al quran is only one, we all have copies of al quran in our houses and mosques. We print thousands copies of al quran every year, reproducing it makes no difference every copy we have is still al kitab/al quran. Similarly, the same concept can be applied to al bait, which is a civil institution charged with promoting al quran. Just like al quran, we can reproduce many baitun throughout the world, and each one will be 'al bait' provided it fulfils the criteria of promoting al kitab and allowing people to witness the guidance it gives. This concept will allow al bait to be established in every region of the world, where people of that locality can journey to it and witness the benefits of quran and the deen of Islam annually, alleviating the need for quotas and removing all logistical barriers. This will make hajj universal, as taught by al quran.

It is also interesting that in 2189 we notice al buyuuta (plural of al bait) being mentioned with the timings of hajj

2189 They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say, "They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the hajj." Piety is not that you would enter al buyuuta from its back, but piety is whoever is aware and comes to al buyuuta through their main doors. Be conscientious of God that you may succeed.

Allah may be using al buyuuta in a metaphorical sense, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

Journey to al bait with hajj seems to be a civic duty for muslims as well as a religious one

Waatimmoo alhajja waalAAumratalillahi fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara minaalhadyi wala tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu faman kana minkum mareedanaw bihi athan min ra/sihi fafidyatun min siyaminaw sadaqatin aw nusukin fa-itha amintum famantamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji famaistaysara mina alhadyi faman lam yajid fasiyamuthalathati ayyamin fee alhajji wasabAAatin itharajaAAtum tilka AAasharatun kamilatun thalika limanlam yakun ahluhu hadiree almasjidi alharamiwaittaqoo Allaha waiAAlamoo anna Allahashadeedu alAAiqabi

The verse begins with Complete al hajj and al umrah for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation ? suggests that al hajj and al umrah is something muslims must commit to before they set out because Allah tells us to make a donation if we are prevented. This is a clear indication that al hajj is a community event, and that people who commit or promise to go cannot let the event down by backing out last minute. So Allah is saying that if you are prevented from fulfilling this commitment, then send a donation instead.

He verse goes on with wala tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu - and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination.

wala tahliqoo ruoosakum is commonly translated as ?and do not shave your heads?. It doesn't seem to be in-line with what the hajj is about. Are all people who fail to make it to al hajj meant to shave their heads, women included? What happens to people who have no hair? And what does it have to do with your donation reaching its destination? The two words tahliqoo (shave) and ru'usa (heads) can be translated in different ways.

From PRL

(tahliqoo) Ha-Lam-Qaf = peel, strip, remove, shave, annoy, unlucky, destroy or cut off entirely, coat of mail, turn or drew a circle, cancel the pay/stipend/allowance of one, halo, it was/became high, become little in quantity and went away, ripening, sharp, quick, swift, agile, active, a high mountain rising above what surrounds it and without vegetable produce, ring, razor, sharp (said of a sword or man).

(ru'usa) Ra-Alif-Siin = head, head/chief/commander/ruler/governor/prince, strike on the head, set any one over, become high in rank/condition, highest or uppermost part, the capital/principal of money, the beginning or first part, numerous and strong company of people.

I'm not sure what this term means.

The verse continues
Whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until al hajj, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation. If one cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during al hajj and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at al masjid al haram. Be conscientious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

If al hajj is a community event, it cannot be a community of freeloaders. If everyone came for the free food and no one came with donations, there would be nothing to eat! So those who are able, have a duty to provide donations, and if for whatever reason they do not provide a donation, they should fast for three days for spiritual benefits and practise self control. The poor are not required to give donations nor fast, as suggested by

"That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice) then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.

The verse 2196 ends with - this is for those whose family is not present at al masjid al haram. Be conscientious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

To not be present at masjid al haram could mean disobedience to this institution, or at odds with it in some way. But can we fast or give donations on behalf of a disobedient family? I don't think there's a precedence for this in al quran.

Another way to understand this last part is that Allah is alluding to people who made it to hajj without their families who couldn't answer the call to hajj. They were not present at masjid al haram i.e. they could not obey the institution that validates the hajj of al bait for whatever reason.

There seems to be a strong link between the institution masjid al haram and the establishment al bait. Perhaps masjid al haram dictates the hajj agenda every year, and al bait ensures it is done accordingly. For example, masjid al haram (government institution) may identify that there is an unusually high rate of orphans in the country, so they ask al bait (quran promoter) to make orphans and foster carers one of the main agendas for next year's hajj. Al bait agree, and masjid al haram sends the call out to the people, inviting them with hajj, particularly potential foster parents. Those people who make the commitment to come are bound by the instructions in 2196. If an organisation cannot answer the call but sends one representative/family member, that member should give the donations/fast as 2196 as a representative of his people who couldn't answer the call.

Kaba and Mecca

If it is correct that al bait is a quranic establishment and can have headquarters everywhere, what about Mecca and the Kaba?

Allah made the Ka'ba, al bait, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

This verse clearly tells us that Kaba is al bait, and is called a security for men. The verse is very similar to 2125 and 396, where al bait is called a security for men. We also know from 396 that Kaba is not the only al bait, as the first al bait was established in Bakka.

There are some quran students who attempt to translate the word Kaba. I do not consider this necessary and see no problem in taking the meaning on face value and believe that Allah made Kaba al bait, just like He made al bait in Bakka.

595 O you who acknowledge, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make such as a donation to reach the Kaba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, or by an equivalent fast; to taste the consequence of his deed; God forgives what has past. Whosoever returns, then God will avenge it. God is Noble, Avenger.

Here, the quran says that where hunting restrictions are violated, the perpetrator must stand before a judge/peers and provide compensation. The interesting detail is that the compensation must reach al kaba. By specifying al kaba, does this not mean that hajj must be to al kaba? If the theory is that there are many 'al bait' over the world with their respective hunting restrictions, why would the compensation be paid to al kaba instead of al bait of the region?

I believe that Allah uses al kaba as the paradigm that was most suited for the people the quran was revealed to. Al kaba was the bait of the people of that time, hence the hunting restrictions are explained in those terms. Al bait in other regions may not have any wildlife of any significance, hence the restrictions simply do not apply. For example, Allah commands us to be kind to our parents, but if you do not have parents you are not able to practise this injunction. Similarly, where al bait does have wildlife, we use the above verse as the correct paradigm and follow the principles. If al bait does not have any wildlife, the restrictions do not apply.

The more fundamental question for quran students is what is al kaba? We know al kaba is al bait, but does that mean the black box is al kaba?

2158 The Safa and Marwah are amongst the symbols of God. So whosoever makes hajj to al bait, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should traverse within them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.

This is one of the more challenging verses for quranists. Traditionalists are quick to point out that Safa and Marwa are the names of the two mountains that enclose the Kabah, and is what the above verse is referring to. The problem with this is that there is no supporting evidence that the words 'safa' and 'marwa' are proper nouns, they can actually be translated. However, even when the words are translated, they leave some ambiguity as to what the verse means.

For that reason, and because of 595 and 597, I lean towards the opinion that al kaba is actually the name of al bait in Mecca. I see no problem in leaving the words kaba, safa and marwa as proper nouns. That does not necessarily mean that the black box is al kaba, merely al kaba was al bait of Mecca. I believe we could even concede the black box as the headquarters of al bait of Mecca. By making a former pagan hub the headquarters of al bait, Allah signifies the end of paganism, and shows people that impurities can be washed away. If you used to be a polytheist, you can become a muslim and your past will never be held against you. Similarly, if al kaba used to be a pagan structure, it can be cleansed and be a God-alone establishment. But this is a peripheral point to the main issue. Al bait does not need a physical structure at all.

I do not believe the traditions that suggest Ibraheem built the black box, the quran clearly says he raised the foundations of al bait in Bakka. I do not believe al kaba is a holy site, as Allah says He made it al bait, and al bait is an establishment that gives people the means to witness through the invitation of hajj.

Conclusion

Masjid al haram is an institution.

Al bait is a guidance for mankind because it promotes the teachings of al kitab through the hajj invitation that goes out to everyone. There should be al bait in all regions of the world that fulfil this function. It is impossible for al bait to be exclusively established in a single place because it then immediately fails to be universal.

Al kaba is al bait of Mecca and the surrounding region, it fulfilled the function of al bait during the time of the Prophet but since has been hijacked for sectarian agendas. It is no longer al bait, but will be al bait again if it fulfils the criteria in the future.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Thanks
peace

Wakas

peace Bro Mushu,

Firstly, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Personally, I very much appreciate it when people put forth carefully researched/thought studies into AQ.

AFAIK there is no archiving, but when we switched forum software from phpBB to SMF the links were different so the links in old threads may not work but the actual discussion should still be there somewhere. Some content was lost during some switches and changing hosting etc but I think this was minimal.

A few notes in brief

Your views are very similar to mine, until this past year. I have modified my views a little. I gave a basic outline of those changes here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601181.0
This was mainly for students of AQ to consider when researching, until I wrote a full article.

You are right when you point out how traditional HJJ does not fulfil what AQ says. This is a glaring error in Traditional understanding/application in my view.

There is no "HJJ ila/to" anywhere in AQ.

You are right, AFAIK no building or perhaps even inanimate object is ever called a "guidance" in AQ. I noticed this also. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, let me know.

Re do not shave your heads
This issue has been discussed before. Bro Ayman and I discussed this in some detail. You may find it interesting.

The ending of 2196 is very very interesting, as you highlight. Once logic and cross-reference is applied I am sure only one or a very a limited number of meanings will fit.

597 it is not "security of men" and it says "al bayt al haram" not "al bayt" only.

There are still many issues not covered in your post, but this is understandable as it is a rather huge topic which links into other things also. However, I am very confident we are getting much closer to the answer. These are exciting times.

Mushu

Peace Wakas,

Your views are very similar to mine, until this past year. I have modified my views a little. I gave a basic outline of those changes here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601181.0
This was mainly for students of AQ to consider when researching, until I wrote a full article.

Thanks for the link, very interesting.

I agree that al bait al haram and al bait al atiq are probably the same thing. Do you believe the bait mentioned in 2125, 396 and 397 are al bait al haram? Due to the context of the verses, I assumed they were, even though quran uses the term al bait only.

Did you write that article in the end? I'd be very interested in reading your thoughts.

Re do not shave your heads
This issue has been discussed before. Bro Ayman and I discussed this in some detail. You may find it interesting.

Yea I read a few explanations here on FM (none by you or Ayman though) but I didn't really find them convincing. Do you have the link?

597 it is not "security of men" and it says "al bayt al haram" not "al bayt" only.

Thanks for the correction.

There are still many issues not covered in your post, but this is understandable as it is a rather huge topic which links into other things also. However, I am very confident we are getting much closer to the answer. These are exciting times.

The main purpose of my research was to address the issue of universality of hajj. I've read the thoughts of bro Layth who believes hajj of al bait is in Jerusalem or thereabouts, which, as far as I'm concerned, simply moves the problem from one part of the world to another.

If hajj is a benefit to mankind it has to be, by definition, two things

an actual benefit. Rituals and slaughtering animals is not a benefit worth journeying for.
easy access to all mankind

If we claim that hijjul-bait is in one location, then it fails to be a benefit for mankind. So my research was to determine whether hijjul-bait can be done in multiple locations, making it universal. I thought I was onto something until you threw a curve ball at me with 597 which says kaba is bait al haram! If kaba is bait al haram, is it a different establishment to the 'first' bait of Bakka? If it is different I'm wondering what that does to my theory...

Wakas

peace,

You might find Anwar's article interesting
http//web.archive.org/web/20050206231622/peopleprogod.org/pilgrimage.html

I agree that al bait al haram and al bait al atiq are probably the same thing. Do you believe the bait mentioned in 2125, 396 and 397 are al bait al haram?

No, but I dont consider them totally different things.

I am writing the article in parts. I finished the SuJuD part, I dont know if you saw it
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
I dont expect to complete it for at least a few months.

Try the search function and type in "shave" and "Wakas" as the author, a few come up.

I forgot to say in that thread I linked you to, I wrote later that al masjid al haram is best rendered as "the inviolable time of SJD" referring to the restriction period/months. Try considering this concept during your studies, you may find it helpful.

Mushu

Try the search function and type in "shave" and "Wakas" as the author, a few come up.

Shave Wakas...okay got it. Thanks.

abdalquran

Wow Mushy ! AWESOME flow of thoughts there!

Lets also not forget that Q says 'wa adhnanin FEE an-naas BIL hajj' (22/27). As you know, I dont like these 'dodgy' prepositions. 'fee' is 'in' and 'bi' is 'with'. So its not calling mankind to the hajj. Its rather doing so WITH the hajj. Why? because once u get the hajj (establishment of God's insitution), the rest of the aya happens..'they come to you'..

Bait al-ateeq, Al-bait and bait al-ma3moor are different stages of the institution. You can discern this stage thing by reading the suras in which they appear (22, 2 and 52 respectively). As Wakas says, not totally different but not totally the same either.

About 2/158, the context starts with 2/153 which is to seek optimum performance with sabr and salat. Then comes the test and those in 'salawat' with Allah, they're able to take the test (2/157). Then comes 158 which describes the state of zero growth and rest (safa and marwah). It's ok to hover in these two states when you're challenging the house (hajj al-bait) or fertilising it (ita3mara) as long as you voluntarily do good (tatawwa khair).

I cant wait to see more of this, guys! Mushy, thank your mum for getting you thinking about this P

Wakas

You are right, AFAIK no building or perhaps even inanimate object is ever called a "guidance" in AQ. I noticed this also. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, let me know.

I should clarify, I meant no inanimate object without something instructional within it, thus revelation counts, a building does not.

Mushu

Peace all,

Wow Mushy ! AWESOME flow of thoughts there!

Thanks bro! You're definitely one of my inspirations! D

Lets also not forget that Q says 'wa adhnanin FEE an-naas BIL hajj' (22/27). As you know, I dont like these 'dodgy' prepositions. 'fee' is 'in' and 'bi' is 'with'. So its not calling mankind to the hajj. Its rather doing so WITH the hajj. Why? because once u get the hajj (establishment of God's insitution), the rest of the aya happens..'they come to you'..

Bait al-ateeq, Al-bait and bait al-ma3moor are different stages of the institution. You can discern this stage thing by reading the suras in which they appear (22, 2 and 52 respectively). As Wakas says, not totally different but not totally the same either.

Yep, I definitely need to gather my thoughts on this, as I can see I've mixed up a lot of issues and haven't paid close enough attention to certain prepositions. Also, Jack contributed some interesting ideas to me yesterday, which I'll try and incorporate into my next set of notes.

About 2/158, the context starts with 2/153 which is to seek optimum performance with sabr and salat. Then comes the test and those in 'salawat' with Allah, they're able to take the test (2/157). Then comes 158 which describes the state of zero growth and rest (safa and marwah). It's ok to hover in these two states when you're challenging the house (hajj al-bait) or fertilising it (ita3mara) as long as you voluntarily do good (tatawwa khair).

Very interesting...

I cant wait to see more of this, guys! Mushy, thank your mum for getting you thinking about this

Yea man, she definitely gave me the kick to look into this! I agree with you and Wakas that these are exciting times.

abdalquran

Thanks bro, glad the heresy is infecting the 'yoof' of today

You've given me food for thought as well. How the heck is one centre gonna be 'guidance for the worlds'. Thats nonsense. And it just hit me as well, the 'imamate' of Ibrahim (imam for mankind - 2/124) is a model based thing (thats what imam means, btw). Therefore the house should also be a model which we export (almost like marxism). It can then be adjusted for local communities. It's not a supremacist model.

What else has Jack said? Bloody yank's kept all the good stuff to himself, it seems!

Jafar

Thanks Mushu,

I pretty much agree with your thought and conclusion.

I might want to add few things..

I have observe how "THE FESTIVALS" can be commonly found nearly in every other culture around the globe with the following characteristics.

A gathering of people within that region/area regardless of their belief / sects or others
The objective of such gatherings is basically a "Thanksgiving event" usually after harvest time or season.
They're having meals together to rejoice or just to catch up on the latest happenings with each others..
On some instances there's also a 'trading of gifts' happening between each others.

You can find such "FESTIVAL EVENT" from Japan, China, Europe, Thailand and others.
The time of THE FESTIVALS varied between those cultures.
Accordingly the place of such FESTIVALS are also varied.
I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)
A requirement to promote QURAN specifically might transform such beautiful non-sectarian event into a sectarian / cultic event.
However I do agree that within such Festival there should be some kind of discussion or teachings going on to enrich the wisdom and knowledge of such community.

Nevertheless, I do share the same opinion that what's happening in Saudi Arabia "FESTIVAL/HAJJ" today are clearly

A sectarian / cultic event which limited the participant only for those who are a member of such sect or cult
Hardly any wisdom teachings involved on those series of events.
It contains ridiculous sectarian rites which doesn't enrich one's wisdom or knowledge.
The ridiculous rites are so tiring and 'dangerous', especially for the elders and it has been proven by the number of DEATH/CASUALTIES every year due to people participating on such ridiculous and fruitless rites. Which oddly enough the cult members always sees such CASUALTIES / DEATH as NORMALITY! And they believes people who died during those cultic events are HEROES! and automatically granted a place in Heaven!

To really understand why such thing has take place and shaped as such, we need to understand the historical origins of such event, especially the ambiance / cultural environment around that region between 2500 up to 1500 years ago.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_religion
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgia
Happy reading and researching..

"To every Group Of People (Ummatin) We have appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord for thou art assuredly on the Right Way."
AL-HAJJ (THE FESTIVAL) 67

Salam / Peace

Jack

What else has Jack said? Bloody yank's kept all the good stuff to himself, it seems!

D yeah I was just telling him about the discussion we had previously.

Great thread btw, I'm just trying to take it all in.

yesuri2000

Salam Mushu

Really enjoyed your article. I have been thinking about Hajj a lot recently. I'm in two minds as to whether or not I should ever go.
A friend from work came back from it recently and some of the things she told me just amazed me. For example depending on how much you pay you will end in a tent with nice carpets, beds, chandelier lighting at the top end of the spectrum and the other end you might just get a blanket to cover yourself with and just sleep on the floor. Also depending on much you can afford you will have to walk through the whole process or you can get a private bus for you and your group to take you between each destination of the route.

All these things just make me wonder, where is the so called equality that Muslims promote about hajj? whats the point of things like the dress code which makes all the men dress in the same manner so that we are equal in front of god, yet clearly depending on where you come from and how much money you can spend the whole experience is not equal at all.

Also your point regarding verse 397 translating the word Kanaa as is instead of was. Makes me wonder what else has not been translated exactly and what the reasons are for the way verses are translated.

abdalquran

Bruv, why dont you go as a cultural observer? That's the capacity in which I go to the masjid.

Mushu said to me yesterday, we cannot hope to make inroads into the Muslim community if we shun them. I dont feel Im being a hypocrite by participating in the ritual salat at the masjid (which I dont believe came from Allah). I just see it as part of my culture.

Mushu

I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)
A requirement to promote QURAN specifically might transform such beautiful non-sectarian event into a sectarian / cultic event.
However I do agree that within such Festival there should be some kind of discussion or teachings going on to enrich the wisdom and knowledge of such community.

Thanks for your thoughts. Al bait is described as a guidance to the worlds, so by definition it must enact quran in some way. A festival does not qualify as a guidance for mankind.

Salam Mushu

Really enjoyed your article. I have been thinking about Hajj a lot recently. I'm in two minds as to whether or not I should ever go.
A friend from work came back from it recently and some of the things she told me just amazed me. For example depending on how much you pay you will end in a tent with nice carpets, beds, chandelier lighting at the top end of the spectrum and the other end you might just get a blanket to cover yourself with and just sleep on the floor. Also depending on much you can afford you will have to walk through the whole process or you can get a private bus for you and your group to take you between each destination of the route.

All these things just make me wonder, where is the so called equality that Muslims promote about hajj? whats the point of things like the dress code which makes all the men dress in the same manner so that we are equal in front of god, yet clearly depending on where you come from and how much money you can spend the whole experience is not equal at all.

Also your point regarding verse 397 translating the word Kanaa as is instead of was. Makes me wonder what else has not been translated exactly and what the reasons are for the way verses are translated.

Thanks yesuri. Yea I've had the same thoughts as you. I got thinking after someone in my family came back from hajj recently and was telling me about the utter madness that goes on there.

As for translations, none of them are perfect so the best thing is to refer to the Arabic.

Thanks bro, glad the heresy is infecting the 'yoof' of today

You've given me food for thought as well. How the heck is one centre gonna be 'guidance for the worlds'. Thats nonsense. And it just hit me as well, the 'imamate' of Ibrahim (imam for mankind - 2/124) is a model based thing (thats what imam means, btw). Therefore the house should also be a model which we export (almost like marxism). It can then be adjusted for local communities. It's not a supremacist model.

Dude, I ain't a 'yoof'!

The link between the universal imamate of Ibrahim and how al bait is described was one of the first things I noticed when going over these verses. It makes me wonder about other aspects of the deen as well...

Jafar

Thanks for your thoughts. Al bait is described as a guidance to the worlds, so by definition it must enact quran in some way. A festival does not qualify as a guidance for mankind.

LOL..
Then how could you explain in which

Jesus teaches wisdom in Jerusalem
Abraham teaches wisdom in his own house which functioned as free hotel for travelers..
And millions others which teaches wisdom in myriad of places.
WITHOUT THE HELP OR EVER MENTIONING THE QURAN?

What I'm trying to do is to avoid people 'over-idolizing' the Quran..
God doesn't need the Quran to teach wisdom to people..
And Wisdom definitely doesn't contained only in the Quran..

Salam / Peace

Mushu

LOL..
Then how could you explain in which

Jesus teaches wisdom in Jerusalem
Abraham teaches wisdom in his own house which functioned as free hotel for travelers..
And millions others which teaches wisdom in myriad of places.
WITHOUT THE HELP OR EVER MENTIONING THE QURAN?

What's that got to do with al bait? Why is al bait described as a guidance to the worlds? What does that mean?

What I'm trying to do is to avoid people 'over-idolizing' the Quran..
God doesn't need the Quran to teach wisdom to people..
And Wisdom definitely doesn't contained only in the Quran..

Salam / Peace

What has hijjul-bait got to do with idolising quran?

Wakas

I think what Jafar is saying is HJJ, al bayt etc were done pre-AQ, thus it is not necessarily tied with AQ. But I can see why one would link it now, since we are living in a post-AQ period.

Mushu

I think what Jafar is saying is HJJ, al bayt etc were done pre-AQ, thus it is not necessarily tied with AQ. But I can see why one would link it now, since we are living in a post-AQ period.

Sure, but you would agree that even pre-aq al bait was a guidance to mankind? So it must have been tied to the guidance coming from Allah, whatever that may have been. Otherwise it would fail to qualify as a guidance for mankind, given that al bait in itself can't do anything.

I can't see how anyone can get away from the link between al bait and al quran, so to suggest hijjul-bait can be done without quran is like saying you can guide people to Allah without His guidance.

Wakas

Sure, but you would agree that even pre-aq al bait was a guidance to mankind?

Of course.

I can't see how anyone can get away from the link between al bait and al quran, so to suggest hijjul-bait can be done without quran is like saying you can guide people to Allah without His guidance.

I'm not sure who is saying that.

Abraham was able to establish a house/bayt for the beings, and he used what he had in his time. We would use what we have in our time.

Hence 396 opening with "first" then switching from past to present address mid 397 onwards.

Mushu

I'm not sure who is saying that.

That's what I understood from bro Jafar's post

I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)

If the very function of al bait is to guide mankind, how can it fulfil that by not using aq? As far as my reading goes, you can't separate al bait from The Scripture.

If it doesn't promote aq then it can no longer be considered al bait. Like a school that doesn't teach anything can not be defined a school.