the 5 pilars and what they teach
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the 5 pillars are the 5 things that are foundational to Islam. they support it, and sustain Islam. if we look at them and ask why they are important, most would simply say they are the believers way of completely submitting in obedience, but there are some things they teach which are also essential to keep in mind.
shahadda this is the declaration of faith, now for most it is a no-brainer, we all agree that this is the first step, and it is reaffirmed again and again, but its not just something to say. this is how we learn to take a stand. and its not good enough to take one stand, but we must decide to do it again and again. this means there is a conscious decision each time we take this stand.
salat why pray 5 times a day? isn't it good enough to just pray whenever we need to? no not really, this precise requirement is meant to teach consistency, for in this basic principle we are re-enforcing the idea of consistency in everything that Islam teaches, the Qur'an doesn't contradict itself, Allah does not either, so we should be consistent and salat is a great way to re-enforce this idea.
Sawm this teaches discipline, it is the ultimate way to control the desires, complying with this pillar makes it easier to control desires when fasting is not required. this is essential if we are to carry out decisions that effect not only ourselves but others, it is easily transposed when we look at rights and limitations. sure we have the right to eat, but we impose limits on ourselves. then this concept can be applied to other areas of life as well.
zakat community responsibility. its not just for charity's sake, it means we must actively partake in our role in the community. lazy charity, or letting a religious organization do it for us, or sending a check off to some world hunger fund is not good enough when the people next door have starving kids. this idea forces us to place the money where it is needed, and absolutely eliminates the possibility of corruption that is running rampant in other religions when they collect alms or tithes and monetary offerings claiming they are going to use it for good. again it re-enforces personal responsibility and actively being a part of the community for its betterment.
hajj not just a bunch of meaningless rituals that are complied with to complete obedience to Allah, but the scope of it is so enormous that you cant help but notice the greatest theme of it UNITY. to have so many millions of people in one place all making pilgrimage to mecca re-enforces the concept of unity. just think, if that many people can stand united for Hajj, then cant the same number of people stand together for other things as well?
anyway this is what they mean to me.
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Salam Joseph
First it should be called Five Pillar of SUNNIISM.
Second It is clearly self-evident that Muhammad himself shall violate the Five Pillar of SUNNIISM as thus declared as Kaffir! or Murtad! by the Sunnis, due to the fact that it is impossible (and quite useless) for him to proclaim "I bear witness that I AM the messenger of God". And it is puzzling me to imagine Jesus, Abraham, Moses and other figures which life stories told in very high-regarded manner in the Quran to proclaim that Muhammad is messenger of God given Muhammad is not yet even born during their lifetime. As thus all of them are also considered as Kaffir and Murtad by the Sunnis since they never ever recite the "Sunniism Syahada" properly.
Third The so called Hajj in Mecca is a cultic/sectarian event as they ban everyone who had 'different view' to join such arabic paganistic orgia occasion. Including but not limited to the Ahmadis, Shiites and especially the infidel Jews and Christians.
http//weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/riyadh-non-muslim-sign.jpg
http//www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Saudi-Arabia-apartheid-road-sign-to-Mecca-non-Muslims.jpgLast and not least; I invite you to watch what the Sunnis fanatics did to those who dare to violate their Five Pillar nonsense..
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602161.0Salam / Peace
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Salam Joseph
First it should be called Five Pillar of SUNNIISM.
Second It is clearly self-evident that Muhammad himself shall violate the Five Pillar of SUNNIISM as thus declared as Kaffir! or Murtad! by the Sunnis, due to the fact that it is impossible (and quite useless) for him to proclaim "I bear witness that I AM the messenger of God". And it is puzzling me to imagine Jesus, Abraham, Moses and other figures which life stories told in very high-regarded manner in the Quran to proclaim that Muhammad is messenger of God given Muhammad is not yet even born during their lifetime. As thus all of them are also considered as Kaffir and Murtad by the Sunnis since they never ever recite the "Sunniism Syahada" properly.
Third The so called Hajj in Mecca is a cultic/sectarian event as they ban everyone who had 'different view' to join such arabic paganistic orgia occasion. Including but not limited to the Ahmadis, Shiites and especially the infidel Jews and Christians.
http//weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/riyadh-non-muslim-sign.jpg
http//www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Saudi-Arabia-apartheid-road-sign-to-Mecca-non-Muslims.jpgLast and not least; I invite you to watch what the Sunnis fanatics did to those who dare to violate their Five Pillar nonsense..
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602161.0Salam / Peace
those have nothing to do with the five pillars. did i say anywhere that it includes what you mentioned? those are human inventions. in fact it is clear that Muhammad attempted to close the gap between all believers, so special lanes are out of line. this can be viewed as a form of Fitnah. there are believers in every religion. also i never mentioned anything about the format of salat, and yes it would be foolish for Muhammad to proclaim himself a messenger. salat is to Allah alone. this is common sense, but nowhere was it ever mentioned in my post about format, but concepts contained within these activities. in fact you just made something complicated out of something simple and added things into it that were never even mentioned.
the fact that you have equated what Sunnis or any other sect have added into the five pillars is proof of this nonsense being accepted without people using their minds to be able to tell the difference. there is a difference, and most sects have taken something that was intended to be simple and complicated it beyond reason. the solution is not to throw everything out simply because it has been corrupted, but to get back to the simplicity of what was intended. and not to do so by declaring that we are a different sect, that is also Fitnah. it is simple enough to simply be Muslim and ignore the silly differences, resist the urge to create a new sect and realize that this is for the praise of Allah and not men, so it doesn't matter what men think or wish. it is between you and your creator.
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those have nothing to do with the five pillars. did i say anywhere that it includes what you mentioned? those are human inventions. in fact it is clear that Muhammad attempted to close the gap between all believers, so special lanes are out of line. this can be viewed as a form of Fitnah. there are believers in every religion. also i never mentioned anything about the format of salat, and yes it would be foolish for Muhammad to proclaim himself a messenger. salat is to Allah alone. this is common sense, but nowhere was it ever mentioned in my post about format, but concepts contained within these activities. in fact you just made something complicated out of something simple and added things into it that were never even mentioned.
The 'five pillar' is a myth... it's a simple as that.. a sectarian concept and theological idea introduce later on...
The so-called concept of "Syahada" is nowhere to be found within the Quran, it's an adopted concept from sectarian ideas.. specifically from THE SHEMA in Judaism and Apostolic Creed in Christianity..and not to do so by declaring that we are a different sect,
We are NOT A SECT.. we disband the whole conception of "sectarianism", so truly we never declare ourselves to be 'different sect' from other sectarian group because if we declare as such we are still admitting that we are sectarian ourselves.
We don't have "Five Pillar" or other dogmatic ideas, we don't enforce ideas to be believed by people... people are free to have differing opinions. We never proclaim "Kuffar!" or "Murtad!" to other people..that is also Fitnah.
What is your understanding of the word "Fitnah"? You seem to have certain fetish on using this word...
it is simple enough to simply be Muslim and ignore the silly differences,
It is! and it should!
Not only with the sunnis but also with the shiites, sufis, ahmadis, christians, catholics, lutherians, mormonism, orthodox, judaism, buddhism, taoism and whole bunch of other groups..resist the urge to create a new sect and realize that this is for the praise of Allah and not men,
Again we are not a sect, we don't have any dogma or enforced theological ideas..
Unlike the sectarians, we never claimed that it only us which shall be eligible for 'heaven' and we never cursed / condemned other group of people to hell for all eternity.The sunnis are free to believe in whatever pillars or columns or roofs or concrete slabs that they wanted and also the shiites, ahmadis and sufis and judaism and christians and others. And we do it for the justice and order among men to avoid Fitna (read chaos / unrest as thus oppression) and hatred by certain society among other societies. Which is common characteristics among sectarian groups.
so it doesn't matter what men think or wish. it is between you and your creator.
Fully agree.. as it is written There are no compulsory in belief as truth stands out clear from error..
Salam / Peace
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if i seem to have a fetish for the word Fitnah, it is because i see many accused of Fitnah without even understanding what it is. it is intentionally dividing the believers. those that are trying to get to the bottom of the simplicity of Islam and unify, restore and clear the fog, are not looking for division. the division is already there, it has been for centuries. so i wonder why those that want to pull down the walls are always accused of Fitnah. personally i dont care to claim Sunni, Sufi, Shia, Wahabi, or any other sect, since those are deliberately Fitnah. if they took the time to make a specific name for themselves, then they understand they have set themselves apart, or divided themselves from the believers. there is inherent division between believers by doing this.
even if the 5 pillars is a myth, is there not even any Qur'anic basis for any of the practices? and if so can they be simplified and clarified? if they do have Qur'anic basis, but not quite the same format as is accepted widely by this group or that group, then how do we get them into correct format?
also, assuming once they are in correct format, wouldn't they still convey the same ideas? the aim is not to fit into a sect but to find out how the application of practicing them would apply to the philosophy within Islam. not to compel someone to do anything.
i will agree there are a lot of additions to these ideas, and that some of them have grown so far beyond what Muhammad would have done it is a wonder some people even complete all the "required" tasks of the Hajj. but nevertheless, the sheer number of people there is a testament to the power of Allah, and it begs ask the question if that many people can get together in one place for a huge list of rituals, why cant they come together to strive for justice as commanded by Allah? if that many people can go through several silly rituals that have been added over the centuries, then why is it so hard to reach out in the community and give support where it is needed? if they can have the willpower under duress to race through the causeways of Mecca to complete all the tasks on a laundry list of duties, then isn't the true way of Allah less burdensome when it is done with the heart of self discipline?
my hope in posting this was not to raise dissent about the silliness of Sunnah, but to find the core Qur'anic principles and stick to those. so what is the solution. we can talk about the problems all day long, but if there is no solution then we just become a bunch of griping squabbling simpletons.
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the 5 pillars are the 5 things that are foundational to Islam. they support it, and sustain Islam. if we look at them and ask why they are important, most would simply say they are the believers way of completely submitting in obedience, but there are some things they teach which are also essential to keep in mind.
anyway this is what they mean to me.
i am not sure what you mean by the 5 pillars supporting and sustaining Islam. i don't get it. does Islam need sustaining? or support?
i beg to differ that the 5 things that you mentioned are the 'foundation to islam'. the foundation of islam is ISLAM - peace within your soul, within your family and within your community. the core principle of Islam is being righteous.
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they are foundational because they teach principles that are core to Islam. it is not the acts themselves that are important, or the format, but what they teach and how they can re-enforce those ideas at the core of the Qur'an. of course they should only be done if they really have solid examples in the Qur'an.
have any of the principles i mentioned contradicted the Qur'an in any way? i dont think so.
conscious decision, consistency, self limitations (self restraint/ self discipline), community responsibility, and unity are all core principles in the Qur'an. to throw the baby out with the bathwater is not only silly but ignores the value of these practices as tools to teach Muslims how to apply these principles to their lives. practical application of them cannot be ignored. they must be placed in the proper context and practiced according to the examples in the Qur'an and not because they are mandated according to Hadith or Sunnah.
so what should we do then? discard everything that may have the color of innovation, or added to, without seriously re-examining them and possibly forging them into more Qur'anically grounded functions?
it is no wonder that some Muslims accuse others of being innovators, because human nature tends to make people go to extreme measures in order to show they are really changing something. i'm merely saying that all change does not need to be extreme, and careful thought must be pursued before truly meaningful and practical change can occur. again, everything must be grounded in the teachings of the Qur'an and then examined to see if it is practical or can be a tool to teach the principles of the Qur'an. if it falls outside of these criterion, then it has no place in Islam. this goes for all Hadith, Sunnah, and even Islamic law.
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salat why pray 5 times a day? isn't it good enough to just pray whenever we need to? no not really, this precise requirement is meant to teach consistency, for in this basic principle we are re-enforcing the idea of consistency in everything that Islam teaches, the Qur'an doesn't contradict itself, Allah does not either, so we should be consistent and salat is a great way to re-enforce this idea.
and this is what God says
Sura 2945
Recite that which hath been inspired in thee of the Scripture, and establish worship. Lo! worship preserveth from lewdness and iniquity, but verily remembrance of Allah is more important. And Allah knoweth what ye do.per God remembrance is more important. worship is meant to preserve from lewdness and detestable things. this is what God meant for us to get out of worship. and God tells us what to say in our prayers in Sura 1780 and in Sura 1778, he tells us when to observe service of prayer.
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Sawm this teaches discipline, it is the ultimate way to control the desires, complying with this pillar makes it easier to control desires when fasting is not required. this is essential if we are to carry out decisions that effect not only ourselves but others, it is easily transposed when we look at rights and limitations. sure we have the right to eat, but we impose limits on ourselves. then this concept can be applied to other areas of life as well.
In Sura 183-185, God tells us that he enjoined fasting on us like he did on those before us so that we can become righteous/ keep away from evil. not everyone can fast and God tells us what to do if you can't fast as he wishes ease and not hardship on us. And that's it.
underlying principle is being a righteous person.
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God gave us the times for the Salat (contact Prayers) in the Qur'an
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 2458from what i can tell the noon prayer and afternoon prayer may be the same, unless further understanding is revealed in the Arabic to distinguish between the two, and the night prayer is said to be extra credit, unless of course it can be shown in the Arabic that the wording is also different to distinguish between an actual prescribed time for the fifth contact prayer and the extra credit prayer.
but i think this is splitting hairs. with a basis in the Qur'an evidence can be shown to support both 5 prayers and 3 prayers. since the evidence of the practice of salat that Abraham and others practiced is all but lost, we do not have the original practice of it to compare it to recorded exactly in the older scriptures. we do however have similar practices by some Jews and Samaritans who prostrated and recited similarly worded prayers prior to the Qur'an as witnessed by their contemporaries.
again i am not concerned with format, or the number of times, whether the reason is to make things easier or more practical or simply because someone is lazy, my aim was to show how these practices re-enforce the principles in the Qur'an, not to split hairs over particular opinions or gripes. what do they teach? is the teaching grounded in the Qur'an? nobody has really answered this question. instead i find one or the other soap box about why this or that practice is really this or that format, or why certain parts of a practice is silly or additions to it are present. i dont care about what the innovators are doing or have done or have implemented in their nations. i'm not here to correct them, i have no power over them. my concern is what do these practices teach. if they teach Qur'anic principles then what is the harm? if they violate them entirely then they should be discarded. if the practices are grounded in Qur'anic teaching then only the parts that violate the Qur'an should be discarded. it is simple as that. and since i have shown that the basic practices, regardless of the format, are in line with and re-enforces the Qur'anic principles, then why am i getting so much silliness? why are people completely missing the point and sidetracking this discourse with their own complaints or gripes or soap boxes?
this is exactly why there is so much infighting and creation of sects (division) within Islam is because people want to get sidetracked over non issues, split hairs and forget that the aim is not to control everyone else, but to find the truth.
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Salam peace
shahadda this is the declaration of faith, now for most it is a no-brainer, we all agree that this is the first step
No, we don't all agree. The sunni shahada is based on a hadith by Abu Huraira and has no foundation in the Qur'an. There are many people who have a problem with it because of the explicit mentioning of Muhammad alongside with God (and/or because Abu Huraira was a liar) and thus reject it. If you use the forum search, you will find several discussions on this issue.
hajj not just a bunch of meaningless rituals that are complied with to complete obedience to Allah, but the scope of it is so enormous that you cant help but notice the greatest theme of it UNITY. to have so many millions of people in one place all making pilgrimage to mecca re-enforces the concept of unity.
Personally, I believe the hajj contains many pagean rituals that I wouldn't want to perform. Plus, it's not all as beautiful and united as it's often being portrayed. Many people have been trampled to death during hajj, women have been molested in the crowd, there is discrimination and racism. And then there is the question of whether it's really ethical to support the Saudi government with tons of money. Just imagine how many people could be fed if everyone donated the money instead of spending it on travelling to hajj.
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again you are pointing out what is wrong with them as opposed to what is right. sure i dont agree with the idea of saying Muhammad is the prophet either, but to negate the declaration of faith in Allah because of it, is again throwing the baby out with the bathwater. there is nothing wrong with declaring you believe in Allah.
sure the Hajj has negative influence and goings on, but what can be done to correct that? simply not go? or rather try to fulfill the pilgrimage with no regard to the laundry list of added rituals? nobody says you have to do them all. again the Qur'anic basis is ignored and the bad is magnified. do you have no faith in Allah? if he wills it you can go in peace to Hajj and do pilgrimage in a way that pleases him and not man. Allah made a way for Muhammad to go to Hajj in his day, and he had to deal with hostile idol worshipers, so is Allah any less powerful today if we want to do the same?
so what is correct about these ideas? forget about what is wrong, we know what is wrong.
forget about Hadith, forget about what idiots have added to the Qur'anic examples of each and focus on what is right and good. what fits the principles of the Qur'an and what has Qur'anic basis. so far i still have not gotten an answer and only gripes about what is wrong with them. we know what is wrong with them. lets focus on what is right.
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sure i dont agree with the idea of saying Muhammad is the prophet either, but to negate the declaration of faith in Allah because of it, is again throwing the baby out with the bathwater. there is nothing wrong with declaring you believe in Allah.
Joseph, I feel you are contradicting yourself here. If you don't agree with testifying that Muhammad is the messenger of God, then why were you saying the Sunni shahada is important and beneficial?
I did not negate the declaration of faith in God and I did not say there is anything wrong with it, I just have an issue with the traditional Sunni shahada that adds Muhammad.
So do you think it would be ok to just state the first part of the "shahada"? Or to use the phrase that is being used in the Qur'an whenever someone "converts" to Islam ? Aslamtu lil rabb il alameen / I submit to the lord of the worlds?
sure the Hajj has negative influence and goings on, but what can be done to correct that? simply not go? or rather try to fulfill the pilgrimage with no regard to the laundry list of added rituals? nobody says you have to do them all. again the Qur'anic basis is ignored and the bad is magnified. do you have no faith in Allah? if he wills it you can go in peace to Hajj and do pilgrimage in a way that pleases him and not man.
I don't "magnify" any bad. I simply don't think hajj, particularly the way it is done today, is necessary and beneficial. Even if you chose to not perform all or some of the rituals, it is still a very expensive endeavour and I think the money could be better spent. Plus, your freedom of choice is somehow limited, for example, you can't escape the masses and the dangers of being in a HUGE group of people.
I know people who went and found it a great spiritual experience, and that is perfectly fine imho. Just stating my personal opinion. Anyway, there are many, many discussions about hajj on here already, so I don't think it makes much sense to go through all this in detail.
peace
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peace Joseph,
There is no such things as "5 pillars of Islam" according to The Quran, but I will comment on the list provided, from my own studies
NB AQ = al quran
Re shahadda
There is no need to declare anything to anyone. One could so if they wish of course. The core teaching if AQ is oneness one God. In mindset and in action.Re salat
I have never read any article or book that gave a credible argument for salat meaning prayer according to AQ. Nor any credible argument for 3 or 5 times. I have read many desperate attempts however.
"salat" means "bond" http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmRe Sawm
Abstinence.
Not just fasting.Re zakat
betterment
Not just charity.Re hajj
The hajj of AQ is vastly different to the hajj of traditional Islam. "al hajj" is an event, most likely "symposium/conference/feast". -
I did not negate the declaration of faith in God and I did not say there is anything wrong with it, I just have an issue with the traditional Sunni shahada that adds Muhammad.
So do you think it would be ok to just state the first part of the "shahada"? Or to use the phrase that is being used in the Qur'an whenever someone "converts" to Islam Aslamtu lil rabb il alameen / I submit to the lord of the worlds?
I don't "magnify" any bad. I simply don't think hajj, particularly the way it is done today, is necessary and beneficial. Even if you chose to not perform all or some of the rituals, it is still a very expensive endeavour and I think the money could be better spent. Plus, your freedom of choice is somehow limited, for example, you can't escape the masses and the dangers of being in a HUGE group of people.
I know people who went and found it a great spiritual experience, and that is perfectly fine imho. Just stating my personal opinion. Anyway, there are many, many discussions about hajj on here already, so I don't think it makes much sense to go through all this in detail.
peace
then we do agree, its just the definition of terms we have issue over. the common names for these things can still be used even if they are not performed in the Sunni format.
and i also agree, if one cannot afford to go to Hajj, or they dont go period, it doesnt mean they are going to hell. it is recommended to go and in Muhammads day it was even easier for him to go considering todays millions that are crowded there, but i was simply trying to find the meaning if any that can still be found in the practices, not to impose sunni tradition on anyone. i myself do not even care for most Hadith, Sunnah, or even the compilations of those into the bulk of Sharia law. i simply look into the Qur'an. everything else is confusing.
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peace Joseph,
There is no such things as "5 pillars of Islam" according to The Quran, but I will comment on the list provided, from my own studies
NB AQ = al quran
Re shahadda
There is no need to declare anything to anyone. One could so if they wish of course. The core teaching if AQ is oneness one God. In mindset and in action.Re salat
I have never read any article or book that gave a credible argument for salat meaning prayer according to AQ. Nor any credible argument for 3 or 5 times. I have read many desperate attempts however.
"salat" means "bond" http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmRe Sawm
Abstinence.
Not just fasting.Re zakat
betterment
Not just charity.Re hajj
The hajj of AQ is vastly different to the hajj of traditional Islam. "al hajj" is an event, most likely "symposium/conference/feast".thank you for clarifying this and indeed the principles i was trying to point out do indeed fit with your list. that is all i wanted to discuss. so we are in agreement essentially. as far as the format, i dont really care what they are as long as it is firmly grounded in the Qur'an. finally someone seriously brought in the positive light instead of only finding fault, though rightly so, in the practices described.
thank you again.
this was especially helpful also.
http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0
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Salaam Joseph,
you did not read the link I gave previously in this thread, it seems you want to rationalize the religion manufactured upon the Deen of Islam, you cannot justify the religion with the Qur'an, the more you truly examine the Qur'an the more this would be the case, if you want to follow the religion of Islam the best opinion you have is to ignore the Qur'an beyond reading it out as a sound bites, and enjoy your religious activities.
Worship the stone building in the desert as the religious do, follow all the pillows of Islam selected to remove action and direction from Muslims, why struggle to rationalize what you already believe, the purpose of study and investigation is not the rationalization of dogma, it is to seek the truth, no matter if that truth transforms your beliefs into something new.
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Salaam Joseph,
you did not read the link I gave previously in this thread, it seems you want to rationalize the religion manufactured upon the Deen of Islam, you cannot justify the religion with the Qur'an, the more you truly examine the Qur'an the more this would be the case, if you want to follow the religion of Islam the best opinion you have is to ignore the Qur'an beyond reading it out as a sound bites, and enjoy your religious activities.
Worship the stone building in the desert as the religious do, follow all the pillows of Islam selected to remove action and direction from Muslims, why struggle to rationalize what you already believe, the purpose of study and investigation is not the rationalization of dogma, it is to seek the truth, no matter if that truth transforms your beliefs into something new.
i quite agree, and this was the purpose for seeking a true answer. i am sorry i missed your link. i suppose i was too caught up in the other comments complaining about the actions of others that take the Hadith and Sunnah and Sharia and make silly requirements out of them. instead i wanted to see if indeed there was clear grounding in the Qur'an or not, and if the principles i saw in the practices had any merit at all.
that question has been answered, so now i can incorporate it into my understanding of truth. (collection was a poor choice of words, since it is not to be collected by practiced and applied)
this link you shared below also is the same thing i was trying to find out, and it agrees in the basic sense with what i was trying to explain in post 1.
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/28/48/
i did not intend to try to justify anything at all, but find the truth. since that has been shown to me, the matter is settled.
and thank you for directing me to the link, it was very informative and knowledgeable.
