-=[ Correction/Modification to FM Translation of AlQuraan ]=-
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Please restore the hadith contaminated verse 781 to it's original meaning. As elaborated in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606746.msg355560#msg355560
Same thing for 2929 it does not have any reference to sexual acts as elaborated http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606746.msg355562#msg355562
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Salam all,
254"And Moses said to his people "O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
the word q-t-l is wrongly used here for killing instead of to better,work on oneself it is against the law of scripture to kill oneself.And it doesn#t make sense for god to forgive them after they killed themself.
stay connected
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The Story of Lut in Quran - A Quranist Translation
Quranic references
Lot's prophecy Quran 26161, 780?84, 1567?77, 26160?168, 2928?31
Angels appear to Lot Quran 1177?80, 1561?66
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah Quran 1182, 26169?175, 2754?58
Lot's wife Quran 1181, 1560, 2932
Praise for Lot Quran 37133?138, 5435References in Bible
Genesis chapters 13,14 and 19
Deuteronomy 29
Psalm 838
Luke 1728-29,32
Peter 27Accusation 26161-169, 2755, 780-81, 1572, 2929
Analysis of the accusation and charges made
26160
kadhabat (denied) qawmu (the people) lin (of Lut) l-mur'salna (the Messengers, male plural)
26165
atatna (do you approach) l-dhuk'rna (the males) mina (among) l-lamna (the worlds)
26166
watadharna (and you leave) m (what) khalaqa (created) lakum (for you) rabbukum (your Lord) min (of) azwjikum (your mates)
bal (Nay) anyum (you) qawmum (a people) dna (transgressing)2755
a-innakum (indeed you) latatna (you approach) l-rijla (the men) shahwatan (with desire) min (from) dni (instead of) l-nisi (the women)
780
walan (And Lut) idh (when) qla (he said) liqawmihi (to his people) atatna (do you approach) l-fishata (immorality) m (not) sabaqakum (has preceded you) bih (therein) min (any) ahadin (one) mina (of) l-lamna (the worlds?)
781
innakum (indeed you) latatna (you approach) l-rijla (the men) shahwatan (with desire) min (from) dni (instead of) l-nisi (the women)
bal (Nay,) antum (you) qawmum (a people) mus'rifna (who commit excesses)2929
a-innakum (indeed, you) latatna (approach) l-rijla (the men) wataqana (and you cut off) l-sabla (Gods path) watatna (and commit) f (in) ndkumu (your meetings/encounters) l-munkara (evil?)Summary of the accusation charges made by God
- Denying the people of Lut the Messengers (2660, 2929)
- Rejecting Luts offer and still being drawn to the men (26165, 26166, 781)
- Unprecedented immorality (780, 2929)
Identification of the male subjects in the accusation
2929 speaks of "a-innakum (indeed, you) latatna (approach) l-rijla (the men) wataqana (and you cut off) l-sabla (Gods path)".
So rijal in 2929 is a group of men being cut off, seperated from Lut. 26160 reveals the rijal mentioned in 2929 are the Messengers as it states the crowd denied Luts People the Messengers.
Denying Luts people the Messengers is cutting one of from l-sabla (Gods path). Make note l-sabla is always used in Quran for Gods way, Gods path never as a literal, physical road.26165 speaks of atatna (do you approach) l-dhuk'rna (the males) mina (among) l-lamna (the worlds). The verb atatuna has many occurences and forms in Quran. Fact not one of them expresses sexual desire.
Clearly the verb used here describes a movement. If we look at 1178 we find the crowd was rushing towards Lut and the Messengers. The verb used here is yuh'rana (rushing, approaching with desire).781 and 2755 again uses the verb latatna (to approach) and l-rijla, this time combined with the noun shahwatan (with desire). The verb here again is in lign with 1178 describing the rushing of the crowd.
Other occurences in Quran of the word shahwatan never explicitly define the meaning as explicitly sexual. In contrary, it refers to any kind of desire. Eg 314 uses this word to describe desiring women and sons, gold and silver, horses, cattle and tilled land.
The riyal again, are The messengers, as 1178 clarifies, the crowd was rushing/approaching with desire Lut and the Messengers. This is further validated by 26160 which clearly states the riyal the crowd wanted to deny Lut, were indeed Gods Messengers.Identification of the female (min duni) subjects in the accusation
26166 mentions azwjikum (your mates). 781 and 2755 mentions l-nisi (the women, plural). Nowhere in all the verses about Lut are any other women (plural) mentioned outside Luts daughters.
Luts daughters are mentioned in 1178 and 1571 (Lut offering them), 1179 (the crowd rejecting them)Is the accusation consistent throughout?
FM Quran
26160 The people of Lot denied the messengers = Consistent
26165 Do you approach the males of the worlds? = Consistent
26166 And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people! = Consistent
2755 You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people. = Consistent
780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before? = Consistent
781 You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people. = Consistent
2929 You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!" = InconsistentAs you can see only in verse 2929 the FM Quran fails utterly. It has added 'sexually', while there is no shahwatan in arabic in that verse. Then it wrongly translates wataqana l-sabla as highway robbery instead of cutting of, obstructing Gods way.
QRT
26160 The people of Lot denied the messengers. = Consistent, although it is shamelesly preluded with a verse injected by Edip to push his narrowminded interpretation saying "Lot and Aggressive Homosexuals". Edip is committing hadith crimes here.
26165 Do you approach the males of the worlds? = Consistent
26166 You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people! = Consistent
2755 You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people! = Consistent, although lust is a far too narrow definition of shahwatan as demonstrated with other Quranic occurences.
780 And Lot, when he said to his people Do you commit lewdness to an extend that none in the worlds had surpassed you? = Consistent alhtough extent is spelled wrongly.
781 You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people = Consistent
2929 You sexually approach men, you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say, "Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!" = InconsistentEdip fails to translate 2929. He makes the same mistake of injecting a word that is not there (shahwatan), then it wrongly translates "cutting of Gods path" by replacing it with highway robbery.
We can conclude both the Freeminds Quran and Edip's QRT do not show consistency in the translation of 2929. A word meaning desire is injected in the translation without being there in arabic. The accusation is suddenly different from all other accusations involving an unprecedented accusation of highway robbery nowhere to be found throughout the entire story. Quran does not contradict. We can conclude these translations of 2929 are objectively wrong if not deliberately translated wrong.
Suggested correction of 2929
You approach the men, you obstruct Gods way, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say, "Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!
Non-Quranic 'Evidence'
The verb used in the biblical version saying the people of Sodom and Gomorra wanted to know the Messengers uses the hebrew word 'yada'. Similarly to the meanings of tatunah and shahwatan in Quran, it does not explicitly mean carnal knowledge at all.
PS
I'm still anticipating a reply from both the Free Minds admins/moderators and Edip Yuksel on this matter. Are we running like zebras here or what's up?
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Bump
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I consider the refusal to remove the injected 'shahwatan' in the translation of 2929 as proof this website is cherry-picking which hadith-contamination to remove and which one to keep. Clearly the admins of this board worship a God which they have attributed homophobia to. I can tell you that is not the God I worship.
Good luck with your reformist homophobic version of Islam. Don't expect anymore contributions from me though.
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I don't feel I'm rushing. I've seen admins active many times since the time I posted this. Not one of them bothered to respond to my suggestion. They are clearly evading this topic. If not, then they could easily post a message stating why they object, whether they agree, if they need more time etc. None of that has happened so far. If they don't agree then let's hear the refutation. So far I can only determine my request is being totally ignored.
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They have also didn't answered my Version of q-t-l in 254;
I am sure they will answer you thats what quran is teaching us to help each other and i dont think they evading your Topic.We don't have to Forget that the hole world can read here and i think they are careful with giving Statements of quranic themes which are not easy to understand for maintream outthere.Just wait Runniglikezebra
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Runninglikezebras,
The people who are responsible for the way it is etc are not the admins of this forum except for Layth as far as I know. You could send Layth a message/email with a link to your analysis or something. Next time if you'd prefer a quicker response or a specific response etc, please send a PM since we don't really read all the threads whenever we log in, and it's quite possible we may miss posts.
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si di...just send Layth a PM/email with the link. Not sure if he's active much however, so perhaps an email may be better.
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I did so, still awaiting a response.
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Salam / Peace,
Sorry for my delayed response.
The Monotheist Translation has been a work in progress for over 10 years now with constant amendments/improvements when errors or misinterpretations have been detected - I would ask that the rhetoric be toned down as we are servants of the Almighty until the day we die (God willing).
I have looked into the matter and the argument of the translation of 2929 being inaccurate does hold water.
The word "sexually" and "highway robbery" are indeed in error.
I would amend to "You approach the males, and you sever the way, and you bring vice into your place." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!
P.S. to show you how easy it is to make an error, you used the word "God" in your suggested translation which is not in the Arabic text.
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Thank you Layth,
I apologize for my impatience and rudeness in this matter. I hope you can find the kindness to forgive me in your heart. I regret and feel embarrassed about causing such a scene.
Peace
ps the word God may not be in it explicitly though in many other verses "l-sabla" refers to Gods path/Gods ways as I pointed out in other topics I posted on this issue. I can find peace in your translation however it allows even that interpretation of Gods path. It does not obstruct that understanding. I like your translation even better as it both allows the interpretations for obstructing Gods path and the obstruction of Lut and his visitors.
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Salam all,
I have uploaded the latest revision of "The Qur'an - A Monotheist Translation" in the link below.
Kindly review if you have any comments/observations that can be factored in before the revised file is sent to the publisher this Monday.
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdf
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Salam,
I would either change the title to "The Qur'an - A Monotheist Homophobic Translation"
or
remove the references to homosexuality in the index.
Peace.
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Salam,
I would either change the title to "The Qur'an - A Monotheist Homophobic Translation"
or
remove the references to homosexuality in the index.
Peace.
Are you a homosexual by chance?
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Pretty shameless question, but I will still answer it. No, I'm not homosexual, I'm heterosexual. I'm one of those that sees the fallacy in thinking God is so narrow-minded to judge people based on a sexual orientation.
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Can you please render malaikatu and all the other quranic words were "angels" are put as "powerful energies"
That's what malaikatu are, powerful energies created by the THE GOD.
My proof would be the fact this word is consistent from the root mim lam kaf in having "powerful/possessing ascribed to it, and let's face it angels and cherubs are in which books?
Anything along those lines I think people would agree?
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Hi Nonmushirk,
I agree "powerful energies" or "controllers" is the meaning of the word. Although I don't object to the use of the word Angel. To me that's exactly what angels are. See my post on the analogy between electrons/angels.
Peace
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During my translation work, I noticed the freeminds quran curiously translates Quran into revelation in
4144 And had We made it a non-Arabic revelation, they would have said "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
Is there any reason to translate http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=61978 into revelation instead of a literal translation of Quran? I have seen this "concealing" of the literal translation in other translations as well, most likely to avoid the inconsistency of a Quran that is in the process of being revealed while referring to itself as an already written text.
This part is very poorly translated as well " Non-Arabic and Arabic, say " Which is incorrect since that part of the verse is still interrogative!
