Confused about salat? Get enrolled in the Free-Minds salat class....

Wakas

peace all,

I had an idea today. Basically, there seems to be a reasonable number of people unsure on salat, e.g. what it means, how many times per day it is, what to do for salat etc. Even though many posts are made about it, few actually seem to ponder upon or answer some key questions about its various aspects. This is understandable to some degree, considering there are hundreds of threads about salat so perhaps good info is mixed with bad, so it can be difficult and time-consuming to get a good idea about it. I tried to help out by creating a thread with a compilation of the best discussions on salat so members would have a very good starting point, but much to my surprise, it was rarely referenced by those discussing salat, so I can only assume many did not read it. ??? So, here is my plan

I will host a class on salat on Free-Minds
In this class, I will go through step by step asking some key questions on various salat issues with Quranic analysis, and each class member will answer or give their thoughts on the questions etc. I/We will work through any questions/problems a class member has. Thus, by the end of it, a much better understanding of salat will hopefully result.

It should be relatively simple stuff but may require you to do a little study here and there, but dont be put off by that.

Class Rules

• Members wishing to join the class can simply post their name on this thread.

• I will not answer any questions of non-class members, i.e. anyone who doesn't "enroll" in the class by posting their name here.

• Non-class members may post clear clarifications or corrections to what is said in the class, but not their own questions on the thread. They will likely be deleted.

• Class members are expected to answer each question or ponder upon the point given to them in order to proceed in the class, e.g. lets say I ask a question and you do not give a response then I may or may not answer any of your following questions

Since I have limited time, this class opportunity is unlikely to be repeated in future, thus if you wish to sign up, I recommend you do so now. If you are a non-member and have been browsing the forum but are confused or have questions about salat based on The Quran, well, now is the time to join.

Lastly, I want to make two things very clear

by hosting this class I am in no way saying I have a perfect understanding of salat, all I am doing is utilising my knowledge of the many forum discussions (since I've been here a while) which may help others. I am in no way promoting a specific understanding, I only aim to highlight points that may help better understanding.
this is not a 'me teaching you' one-way process, as it is often the case, both sides often learn something, so part of the reason for me doing this is I too hope to learn something. So, even if you have a reasonable idea about salat, you may still find it beneficial to enrol. It is up to you.

21 days to sign up.

This may or may not work, but we'll see. And no, you do not have to address me as Mr Wakas in class, unless you want to )

5th April 2011

Kaiokenred, nsws1988, hope4, rraza, Yesuri2000, mmkhan, BornAgain, 1CELOSTNOWFOUND, CavemanDoctor, alalmakt, SarahY, AlFajr, rahenijaat1, willreadit, san, Wander

Wakas

Part 1

Note AQ = al quran

The word "salat" is composed from the Arabic root Saad-Lam-Waw ( ). Various words can be derived from a root, but often the various words have a basic theme or concept running through them that links them together. Not always, but most of the time. In Classical Arabic Dictionaries the following meanings can be found under this root

prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached.
In a horse race when the second horse follows the first one so closely that its head always overlaps the first horse?s body that horse is called AL-MUSSALLI (i.e. the one who follows closely / remains attached).
Central portion of the back, portion from where the tail of an animal comes out, the rump.

References
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/ArabicDictionaries.htm

I would like you to consider what themes/concepts/ideas these meanings have in common, if any. Then put your thoughts here. There are no right or wrong answers as such, just whatever you think.
As an extra question, out of the underlined words, if you had to choose one that felt like the odd one out (i.e. the most different), which one would you choose and why.

Think Out of all the roots in the Arabic language, AQ chose to use saad-lam-waw. Ask yourself why.

A 21 day time period in which to respond will be in place. I think this will be sufficient.

SarahY

Common themes/concepts/ideas
I seem to see 2 main ideas; one being that of praises another being of following.

I thought petition seemed to be an odd definition. I don?t tend to association petition with praise. Actually it could relate to following but for some reason i thought that would be the most odd. to me prayer has more association to praise than petition. I tend to think of petition as fighting for something. Signing a petition would involve following. I don?t really have a solid answer for the question.

Why this root?
Out of all the roots why saad-lam-waw.. well Allahu alem, God knows best. But it?s made me think what other words are used for praise ;dua is to call upon, shukr is to thank, hamd is to praise not sure if there are others. And what other words are use to mean follow; ta3a, iqeem/establish, itiba3/taba3 means to follow or emulate.

Different words are used to mean the same or similar so why is slw different. Why slw? I think because it seems to be universal.. for example it?s used for animals and humans it?s not exclusive. Then again so is tisbih. Maybe it?s not the universal aspect but rather how one word (or rather root) can have a deep definition encompassing a combination of ideas i.e. slw isn?t simply one or the other but a combination of praise and following?

willreadit

Peace everyone,

The themes and concepts of the underlined words are full of expressive actions.
prayer, supplication, petition require humility and active request
oration performance-style speech
eulogy tribute to someone in speech or writing (remembering past good?)
benediction asking for general good
commend, bless say good about
honor, magnify an attitude/perspective as well as action

To me the odd word is oration which is concerned with its own quality rather than the subject about which the words are spoken. It is "just for show"?to please hearers and the orator himself. (May God forgive us.) Other words in the list above seem to imply at least sincerity.

I think the root saad-lam-waw is significant because it puts the doer in a perpetual subordinate position, paying attention to the one followed and if my personal conclusion is correct then it is a root that that also implies cause and effect. (Maybe? I hope I did not go too far or force a meaning?)

Because as we bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, remain attached --the effect is a state where our reaction to what we experience/witness is prayer, supplication, petition, (-oration), eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy. (Positive)

So if existence is not a state of saad-lam-waw, not establishing salat, the effect is a person ignorant of reality and without inspiration to respond in those ways. (Negative)

This study makes a lot of things clearer and I look forward to everyone?s posts.
--Debbie ^_^

mmkhan

Salaam all,

For me it seems very clear and simple single meaning of Saad-Laam-Waw .

Every word used in AlQuraan is used specifically and particularly to some reason and as AlQuraan/AlKitaab explains everything in detail, that means each word used in it has a very vast meaning and definition in itself. Saad-laam-waw to me means 'remain attached' , 'link', 'contact', 'connection', 'be in touch', etc.

When I saw this meaning very clearly and it is suitable to all the aayaats using the word with root saad-laam-waw, then all other meanings are odd to me. I believe that all the words used in AlQuraan don't give multiple meanings but they do have several similar meanings if not the same.

We have to look at the word 'Salaat' that comes mostly attached with the word 'aqim' to give us a proper understanding. Mostly it has been translated as 'establish prayer', I think it is not the proper meaning cause, when you established your prayer once then why do you need to establish it again, for example If I established a school, do I have to establish it again? How? And the other word 'prayer' is a translation of 'dua' in Arabic, not Salaat, so there is an appropriate word already used in AlQuraan for prayer.

'Aqim' is a derivative of 'Mustaqeem', 'qum' etc. that means 'straight' and when it comes with the word 'salaat' it means 'straighten contact' or 'straighten link' or 'straighten connection' to me.

Logically and usually, our concentration deviate from one thing to another when we are at work, so at the specific times we have to straighten our connection with Allah, removing everything else from our minds that is what aqim alsalaat is.

This is why the root saad-laam-waw is used in AlQuraan, cause it gives the exact definition. This is how I understand it.

May Allah open our hearts and increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace all,

For me the common theme in all the listed meanings would be that the one doing the action is focusing on something. There is a clear object that is focused on in order to perform whatever action is being described.

The odd one out for me would be oration due to its focus on the subject rather than the object.

Imraan

san

The common concept/theme/idea of the Arabic root Saad-Lam-Waw is expressed 'most innocently' in the following phrases "follow closely", "remain attached", "follows ... so closely".

The main theme is that of "closeness", "nearness". It signifies a relationship between any two entities (please note that the word "entity" is just a mental concept for representing any other concept as we thought/perceived--treat it as a variable, and you can fit even the concept of "divinity" into the equation. The quality of the relationship is what is being signified). The most basic theme, in spatial terms, is that of "proximity" between two objects (or subjects, depending on point of view). And in temporal, "continuity". Both essential qualities are recorded in the example scene of the two racing horses. The first runner being the 'positional marker' of which their proximity is measured against, while the second runner being the one subject who is actively and continuously making the closeness/nearness/proximity happen.

Again, the quality of the relationship is what being signified, as opposed to the qualities (of the beingness) of the two entities that form the relationship. This is, IMHO, the main reason why the root was chosen/is used to represent this very basic concept (i.e. closeness). Think of how the Divine Creator acts as the one in the active role of "making the closeness/nearness/proximity happen" in verses 3343, 3356. It requires active participation from the two entities to make (and keep) the proximity happen. In other words, it requires two active muSalli to make the closeness/nearness/proximity happens. Getting back to the two horses example, do you think that the second one would be a muSalli if they were to go on their own way to different directions?

In a sense, as can be read from the verses 3343 and 3356, the Divine Creator/Source mercifully 'follows closely' the created beings, guiding, and in turn, the created beings receive guidance to 'follow closely' and 'remain attached' to the Divine Creator/Source. Of course, as related to the root Saad-lam-waw as is used in AQ, the Divine Source (Allah) will forever remain as the 'positional marker' of which the proximity is measured against.

As for the underlined words-- I think it depends very much on the perception of the subject (i.e. how they are being learned/perceived/conceptualized). If a specific word contains action that will result in the actors/entities related being more close, then it can easily be connected to the root meaning. However, since Mr. Wakas instructed me to choose on the basis of "feeling", then i will choose "petition, oration, eulogy" due to the sense of formality evoked, which would potentially damage/sever the "closeness" between the actors/entities involved (in that sense, you can include just about any other word as well though, depending on what sense being evoked to you personally).

There is, however, one most correct and trivial answer to the question, which is

magnifiy (sic)

which stands out from the others because of its misspelling/typo.

Kaiokenred

I think it means holify, magnify. Well i dunno really, but its better then prayer. Or maybe even "follow" like everyone is saying, but i don't think its prayer.

nomis

peace ok to
join the class
nomis

Wakas

peace nomis,

ok, please post your answer.

Joe_Betik

salam wakas & all,

alhamdulillah. congrats wakas!

i hope i am not too late to join the class. it has been a while since i last logged in this forum. -[

although 'salat' for me is most likely an inference or a reference on 'relationship' in the most general of terms (meaning the usage of the word 'salat' in certain phrases will give us a more definite meaning) i am keeping this to myself for the time being, since this is wakas's class. i hope to be a good student.

and i hope we should not confine the probable meaning of the word 'salat' to those underlined words (or ideas meant by the words)? i just thought we shouldn't, since nobody (?) has any inkling just yet on the definite meaning for 'salat'. unless i got it wrong... but in my experience, a student we must first dismantle all conclusions he/she has made, otherwise all new information will be viewed or scrutinized in prejudice. in the end, we learn nothing new since those conclusions will form as the barrier to our attainment of new ideas or understanding.

and perhaps we should try to apply whatever ideas we have on 'salat' on those verses of the qur-an according to one or two widely recognized revelation orders. there are many i know, but perhaps by narrowing down to one or two suggested (most possible) revelation orders will suit our study just fine. it may seem strange to some, but i suppose i can say that my studies took a drastic turn after studying the qur-an according to some suggested revelation orders. i did that since realizing that the qur-an was presented or revealed to prophet Muhammad in progression in a span of over 20 years. as such, early messages (part of the qur-an) contain basic principles or ideas which were later progressively detailed or refined in due course. it's merely a suggestion.

peace
mohammed noh

p.s. btw, i have migrated from viewing the qur-an as a sacred text to a discourse http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse.

yushua

Dear Wakas,

Thanks for the initiative. Wish all goes well.

I would like to join the class too...!

May I ask if Salat, Salam and Islam have some common root that link them..?

Br. Yushua

Wakas

peace all,

Thanks for your replies. I found them interesting.

My answer relaying of information, positivity/closeness/bond. The odd one out for me is prayer because it is the only one that is almost exclusively related to a deity/God.

Part 2

Let us assume 2 things

that there are regular/timed daily salat in The Quran
The Quran contains all the guidance we need, detailed enough to implement what it commands etc.

So, I would like you to think about what information would be required in The Quran for us to carry out salat(s) during the day. This is a deceptively simple question but it should get you to think about the basic requirements of information that we would need to actually carry out what The Quran tells us to do.

Again, 21 days should suffice for replies.

AlFajr

Peace,
Part 1
To me the words seem to apply some kind of closeness or familiarity where one is leading another.

I think oration stands out since its too formal.

--

Part 2

What do we need to do.
When do we need to do it.

Wakas

peace all,

Woah, only one reply. Teachers have it tough ;D

AlFajr, you are exactly right.

The reason I asked this question was because many articles discussing salat based on The Quran are critically flawed in the sense they do not actually contain the information needed in order to do daily salat(s), if one interprets salat in this way.
The most obvious examples are articles discussing a 5 daily prayer, as they all state times but not time ranges, or the content/method of the salat has to be made up subjectively and if it was not for the traditional Muslim prayer being known beforehand then the content/method would not be obtainable. Careful consideration of this point needs to be taken when reading such articles.

Part 3
We will now get into it a bit more and discuss specific salat verses which give us extra information about it

ALM
These are the signs of the book of wisdom.
A guide and a mercy for the good doers.
Those who uphold the salat, and give forth zakat/betterment and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
These are on a guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful ones.
And from the people, there are those who exchange/purchase an idle narration to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and take it as mockery/entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
And when Our revelations are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he did not hear them, as if there is a deafness in his ears. So announce to him a painful retribution.

Then generations/successors came after them who neglected/wasted the salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

What is the extra information one can extract about salat from the above verses?

Again, 21 days should suffice for replies.

hope4

ALM
These are the signs of the book of wisdom.
A guide and a mercy for the good doers.
Those who uphold the salat, and give forth zakat/betterment and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
These are on a guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful ones.
And from the people, there are those who exchange/purchase an idle narration to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and take it as mockery/entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
And when Our revelations are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he did not hear them, as if there is a deafness in his ears. So announce to him a painful retribution.

Then generations/successors came after them who neglected/wasted the salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

What is the extra information one can extract about salat from the above verses?

Again, 21 days should suffice for replies.

Selam

I understand it as been able to uphold our commitments to do the right things in life, even if doing the right thing means we will not gain an advantage from it but having the conscience that it was the right thing to do. Just like I guess the difference between a manager and a leader; a manager makes good decisions but a leader makes the right decisions, may not always be the most popular but its the right thing to do.

Peace

alalmakt

Salaam brother,

What I gather from those extra versus is that Salat is something that needs to be upheld.It's something that one consciously does and may choose to neglect and follow other desires.

Salaam

san

Drafted an answer for part 2 but skipped it p
It was because i thought and i still think that the only relevant question is "Whom to follow/get close to?" Time and space don't matter.

Part 3
The extra information is that Al-Salaat is directly related with guidance. Al-Salaat is directly continued with Al-zakaat--that IMHO, can be understood as the action/work of betterment/improvement to be taken. And the whole circle of guidance is completed with certainty/trust regarding the end as a successful result of following the (divine) information (that is received with Al-Salaat).

Those who don't take divine guidance, in essence, substitute 'a trap of their own making' for the divine path.

Joe_Betik

peace all,

Woah, only one reply. Teachers have it tough ;D

AlFajr, you are exactly right.

The reason I asked this question was because many articles discussing salat based on The Quran are critically flawed in the sense they do not actually contain the information needed in order to do daily salat(s), if one interprets salat in this way.
The most obvious examples are articles discussing a 5 daily prayer, as they all state times but not time ranges, or the content/method of the salat has to be made up subjectively and if it was not for the traditional Muslim prayer being known beforehand then the content/method would not be obtainable. Careful consideration of this point needs to be taken when reading such articles.

Part 3
We will now get into it a bit more and discuss specific salat verses which give us extra information about it

ALM
These are the signs of the book of wisdom.
A guide and a mercy for the good doers.
Those who uphold the salat, and give forth zakat/betterment and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
These are on a guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful ones.
And from the people, there are those who exchange/purchase an idle narration to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and take it as mockery/entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
And when Our revelations are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he did not hear them, as if there is a deafness in his ears. So announce to him a painful retribution.

Then generations/successors came after them who neglected/wasted the salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

What is the extra information one can extract about salat from the above verses?

Again, 21 days should suffice for replies.

salam wakas & all,

i hope i am allowed to post my personal (by personal means, this could be wrong as much as it could be right for anybody else, so get your personal clarifications please) understanding of Surah Baqarah, 1 - 7

Feel. There is no doubt about that message, therein guidance for the mindful. They are people who believe secretly/discreetly as they make the connection, and from what We gave them, they share with the needy. And they are people who believe in what was revealed to you (s) and also what was revealed before you, and in the end they are convinced. These people are on guidance from their Lord, and these people are the successful ones.

Verily those people who disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you have warned them or you haven?t, they don?t believe. God has sealed off their hearts and their hearing, and over their eyesights is a cover, and for them it is a great chastisement.

peace
mohammed noh

p.s. read my earlier post in this thread regarding 'salat'.

mmkhan

Salaam Wakas and all my classmates,

Brother Noh, the question asked is from 31 sura i.e., Sura Luqmaan and aayaats form 1-7, not Sura Baqarah.

Part 3
We will now get into it a bit more and discuss specific salat verses which give us extra information about it

ALM
These are the signs of the book of wisdom.
A guide and a mercy for the good doers.
Those who uphold the salat, and give forth zakat/betterment and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
These are on a guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful ones.
And from the people, there are those who exchange/purchase an idle narration to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and take it as mockery/entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
And when Our revelations are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he did not hear them, as if there is a deafness in his ears. So announce to him a painful retribution.

Here I see no relation of Salaat with any of the aayaats mentioned above. The word Salaat used in 314 is in relation with only two words used before the word Salaat. One is in direct relation and other is indirect, i.e., "allazeena yuqeemoona alSalaata". "Yuqeemoona" is in direct relation with "alSalaata" and "allazeena" is in relation with the word "lilmuhsineen" in 313, but it has to be noted that "allazeena" is not only referring to "Yuqeemoona alSalaata" but it also continues to refer "yutoona alZakaata" and "yuqinoona bi alAakhirati".

Because the 'waw' used between the words is 'separating waw' like and not 'relating waw' which looks like , in this way there is no relation of the word Salaat with others things mentioned.

In 316 the word "yattakhizaHAA", HAA is feminine that is used for female gender or for a group so I think HAA cannot be translated as IT. As said above, 'relating waw' is used in 316, hence it is referring to previously said "sabeeli Allah" .

Then generations/successors came after them who neglected/wasted the salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

What is the extra information one can extract about salat from the above verses?

I understand the word "adhaa'oo alSalaata" means "who wasted the salaat" in 1959 because as in 314 above it is said "yuqeemoona alSalaata" and it is always used with the word "aqim" that means "straight/correct" like in Surat alFatiha , we say "Ihdinaa alsiraata almustaqeem" that means "guide us to the straight/correct path". So, we are always asked "aqeemu alSalaata" that means "correct the Salaat" or "straighten the Salaat", because people already wasted the Salaat , so asked to correct it or straighten it.

This is how I understand.

May Allah guide us all to the His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan