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Lost Salafi Here

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  • B Offline
    B Offline
    Beardo
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    A thousand greetings!

    A few winters ago I deserted Islam for saner shores because the Hadith and the Quran were punctured with so many holes through which one could drive a coach and three horses. I could no longer scrape my head furiously on the floor and stick my bottom majestically in the air like the good Salafi I had been. A friend of mind told me recently that one did not have to accept the absurdities of the Hadith to be a Muslim and pointed me in your direction.

    Do you mind if I ask some questions that have troubled me?

    (1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

    (2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

    (3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

    Thanks.

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    • R Offline
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      raginggaijin
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      (1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

      The man doesn't matter. The Message given to us by our Creator matters.

      (2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

      The prayer of the Islamists is pagan Namaz, and hadith does not teach how to perform it. You cannot show how to pray as the Islamists pray using hadith. You say "Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed".
      Prove it. Show us, using only hadith, how to pray as the pagan Islamists pray today. The phrases, the positions, the times, all of it.

      Syncretism Prayer
      http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9pC0lZ856M

      As for salat, the Quran is very detailed on how to uphold this, but you have to read the Quran in order to know what is in the Quran.

      Salat Recitation of the Quran to remember Allah and His teachings, based on the timed ordinance given in the Quran; a time of devotion to Him.
      Dua To call upon Allah.

      Salat is a time of study and supplication, where we recite the Quran and glorify our Creator ? remembering Him, giving thanks for what He provides, and asking for His protection so we uphold the covenant we took when became believers; Muslims with faith in their heart.

      Muhammad (pbuh) was taught prayer Surah 2239

      Polytheists cannot understand Allah did not teach Namaz ? pagan prayer of the Islamists.

      Prayers were not passed down Surah 835

      ?Quran? means ?Recite?.

      We are to perform salat the way Allah taught us Surah 2014

      The commands for prayer times are given in the Quran.

      Pray in the Morning and Evening Surah 341, 652, 7205, 11114, 1315, 1778-79, 1828, 1911, 2458, 3017-18, 3342, 4055, 489, 5039-40, 7625-26
      "And be thou patient under the judgment of thy Lord; surely thou art before
      Our eyes. And proclaim the praise of thy Lord when thou arise, and proclaim
      the praise of thy Lord in the night, and at the declining of the stars."
      Surah 5258-49
      ?Remember thy Lord in thy soul, humbly and fearfully, not loud of voice, at morn and eventide. Be not thou among the heedless.? Surah 7205

      The periods of time that comprise the night and day are explained in detail in the Quran.

      Periods in Quran
      Morning Fajr/Ishraqi/Dawn/Sunrise ? Sahab/Early Morning - Ebkar /Morning 341, 11114, 1315, 1778-79, 1911, 2458, 3017-18, 4055, 5039-40, 7625-26
      Midday Zuhr/Noon ? Ghaeloona/Midday 11114, 2059, 2458
      Evening Maghrib/Sunset/Twilight - Isha/Asali/Masa/Evening/Nightfall 341, 1315, 1778, 1886, 1911, 2458, 3017-18, 4055, 5039-40, 7625-26
      Night Lail/Night ? Tahajjud/Vigil 1778-79, 2564, 3017-18, 5039-40, 732, 736, 7320, 7625-26

      (Maghrib) means ?West? Surah 2115, 2142, 2177, 2158, 7137, 2435, 2628, 5517, 7040, 739
      Setting sun (ghuroobiha alshshamsi) Surah 1886 (West), 20130, 5039
      Sunrise (Ishraqi)/Rising sun (tulooAAi alshshamsi) Surah 1573, 20130, 2660, 3818

      Qiblah
      Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2125,143-150, 2226

      Positions of prayer
      Standing Surah 2238; 339; 4102
      Bow down/prostrate Surah 3191, 4102; 2226; 3824; 4829

      Every aspect of prayer is described in the Quran.

      Ablution Surah 443, 56
      What to wear Surah 731, 2430-31
      Remove shoes on holy ground Surah 2012

      Purpose of salat
      To study the revelation of Allah, the word of an honored Messenger; the Quran Surah 2121, 3113, 1698, 2792, 2945, 3529, 373, 732-4, 7320, 961
      Seek refuge in Allah from the accursed satan Surah 1698
      Recite the Quran Surah 7204, 82, 1698, 1745, 17107, 2792, 2853, 2951, 3334, 734, 7518
      Pray in moderate tone Surah 7205, 17110-111
      Declare submission to Allah, praise Allah, thank Him Surah 11-7; 2014; 17110-111; 245
      Pray to Allah and only Allah Surah 7218; 2945, 6162; 2014
      Communicate with Allah Surah 443, 17110-111
      Reverence Surah 232
      Ask for help, protection, guidance, forgiveness, and knowledge Surah 2201, 2286, 3147, 3193, 11-7

      Examples of prayer Surah 11-7, 2201, 2250, 2286, 38, 338, 3147, 3191-194, 475, 583, 723,155-156, 747, 7126, 1085-86, 1141,1147, 12101,1440-41,1780,1810, 2025-28, 20114, 2183,87-88, 2329, 2397-98,118, 2574, 2719, 2816, 407-9, 4615, 5410, 5910, 605, 7128, 113 (all), 114 (all)

      (3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

      What I know, I know from the Quran. Why would I want to serve a man when I can serve the Creator of all things?
      I left Christianity because I was lied to all my life by men, on both sides of the pulpit. I see no reason to return to believing them when they cannot uphold the Truth that is still with us today.

      Allah gave every person the authority to become scholars by studying the Quran. But who will pay heed?

      "It belongs not to any mortal that God should give him the Book, the Judgment, the Prophethood, then he should say to men, 'Be you servants to me apart from God.' Rather, 'Be you masters (rabbaniyyeena) in that you know the Book, and in that you study.'" Surah 379

      Peace.

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        Patanahi
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Dear All
        Is this understanding / belief true, that the mankind received Quran thru the revelations of Allah to his messenger Muhammad (SAW) some 1,400+ years ago? Therefore, is it justified to conclude that there is no harm to refer to the Hadith of messenger Muhammad (SAW) for guidance except for the cases which are contradictory to Quran and/or which are not mentioned in Quran?

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          Jafar
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Therefore, is it justified to conclude that there is no harm to refer to the Hadith of messenger Muhammad (SAW) for guidance except for the cases which are contradictory to Quran and/or which are not mentioned in Quran?

          Yes of course there is no harm to refer to any rumor/gossips on or about anyone for any purposes as long as it does not compel you to harm other people. And as any other rumor / gossips it should be treated as such.. a merely gossip / rumor and not the truth itself...

          The problem arises because in that collection of rumors which many people considered as their 'guidance', there are things which inspire people to do harm to other people or other being over ridiculous matter such as but not limited to.. stoning to death, hatred and persecution towards people outside of their sect, especially towards the jews and christians, assassination of political enemy, hatred and killing towards dogs and many more...

          Salam / Peace

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          • R Offline
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            raginggaijin
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Dear All
            Is this understanding / belief true, that the mankind received Quran thru the revelations of Allah to his messenger Muhammad (SAW) some 1,400+ years ago? Therefore, is it justified to conclude that there is no harm to refer to the Hadith of messenger Muhammad (SAW) for guidance except for the cases which are contradictory to Quran and/or which are not mentioned in Quran?

            "Follow what has been sent down to you from your Lord, and follow no friends other than He; little do you remember." Surah 73

            IttabiAAoo ma onzila ilaykum min rabbikum wala tattabiAAoo min doonihi awliyaa qaleelan ma tathakkaroona Surah 73

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            • P Offline
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              Patanahi
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              The prayer of the Islamists is pagan Namaz,

              What to wear Surah 731, 2430-31

              Peace.

              Dear Raging
              As per Surah 731 that you quoted, there is a mention of "Masjid" (English equivalent "Temple", I think). In this regard, if we wish to offer praryer as per Quran, can we offer in the usual masjids that are spread everywhere or (if you consider those usual masjids as offering pagan prayers, which are not prescribed by Quran) then is there a specific place that we should go to which we call the similar masjid mentioned in 731 that is not the one offering pagan prayers as mentioned by you?

              Also, you have summarized in detail various Quranic references for Prayer. This apparently look almost the same as the usual prayers that people offer which according to your understanding is pagan prayer. Due to apparent similarities, it is difficult for me to figure out what is the real difference between the pagan prayer (as per your post) and the Quran prescribed prayer. Can you summarize the key differences between the two for my better understanding.

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                Patanahi
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                "Follow what has been sent down to you from your Lord, and follow no friends other than He; little do you remember." Surah 73

                Thanks for the guidance and help. Please can you also help me in understanding --- How 'what has been sent down to us from our Lord' was revealed to mankind. Was there any messenger who received the message and then he passed on to us through his teachings? Was that messenger, Muhammad (SAW) 1,400+ years ago? Was that message is the one which is available for us today in the compiled form called 'Quran'?

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                  Jafar
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Was there any messenger who received the message and then he passed on to us through his teachings? Was that messenger, Muhammad (SAW) 1,400+ years ago? Was that message is the one which is available for us today in the compiled form called 'Quran'?

                  Among many others yes... he was one among many messengers..
                  The Quran was basically a collection of words which Muhammad received and spoke out during his lifetime..

                  The revelation doesn't end there however.. it's still a continuing process.. although the era of 'channeling the message through prophet' has ended.
                  Yet God continue to guide humankind until now and up to the future through different means by revealing many new knowledge to us..

                  Glory be to God, the Maintainer of all universes..

                  Salam / Peace

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                    herbman
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    A thousand greetings!

                    A few winters ago I deserted Islam for saner shores because the Hadith and the Quran were punctured with so many holes through which one could drive a coach and three horses. I could no longer scrape my head furiously on the floor and stick my bottom majestically in the air like the good Salafi I had been. A friend of mind told me recently that one did not have to accept the absurdities of the Hadith to be a Muslim and pointed me in your direction.

                    Do you mind if I ask some questions that have troubled me?

                    (1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

                    (2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

                    (3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

                    Thanks.

                    Salam, Peace and welcome,

                    (1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

                    I will give you an image to answer this
                    When talking about the moon, one points the moon with the finger, you look at the finger or at the moon? Same here the prophete came and delivered a message, what do you think all is about, the message or the messenger?

                    (2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

                    Again, let's be rational, you have a Book (The Qur'an) that speaks about something let's call it SALAT, why you need to search somewhere else about what and how you perform SALAT.
                    An example when you have a manual for a vacuum cleaner, you don't search in Encyclopedia how your device work, you just try to understand your original manual from the manufacturer.

                    (3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?
                    Personnaly I store it in the category "Tales and Legends", like many islamic books copied these tales from other tales e.g. the Isra and Mi'rage has the same tales with moses, the tale about the spider web in the cavern = same tale about Mary etc etc

                    Peace

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                    • T Offline
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                      TruthBehindIt
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Salam and Peace, everyone!

                      I will give you an image to answer this
                      When talking about the moon, one points the moon with the finger, you look at the finger or at the moon? Same here the prophete came and delivered a message, what do you think all is about, the message or the messenger?

                      Excellent point!

                      Indeed, in The Sight of Allah, The Message is more important than the Messenger, that is why Allah called the Messenger back, and let The Message remain with the mankind.

                      For the Guidance of the mankind, The Message is more important.
                      The Message did not bow before the Messenger, but the Messenger bowed before The Message and followed It.

                      -----"Say (O Messenger) ?If I go astray, I shall stray only against myself, and if I am guided, so it is because of what my Lord has revealed to me. Indeed, He is Hearer, Near." (Saba-50)

                      So obey the Messenger and do, what he himself did.
                      He bowed before The Message and followed Its Teachings.
                      You also bow before The Message and follow Its Teachings.

                      Again, let's be rational, you have a Book (The Qur'an) that speaks about something let's call it SALAT, why you need to search somewhere else about what and how you perform SALAT.
                      An example when you have a manual for a vacuum cleaner, you don't search in Encyclopedia how your device work, you just try to understand your original manual from the manufacturer.

                      Again an excellent point!

                      Personnaly I store it in the category "Tales and Legends", like many islamic books copied these tales from other tales e.g. the Isra and Mi'rage has the same tales with moses, the tale about the spider web in the cavern = same tale about Mary etc etc

                      Indeed, if Seerah of the Prophet had been important for us to know, then who would have been better than Allah to let us know the biography of the Prophet.

                      Whatever account of the Prophet was important, it is given in The Book that Allah sent down. And that account is Authentic.
                      Out of Al-Quran, is fairy-tales fabricated for the worshippers of the Prophet.

                      -----"It is not (possible) for a human that Allah should give him The Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, then afterwards he would say to the people ?Be my worshippers instead of Allah,? but (he would say) ?Be you worshippers of the Lord, because of your teaching of the Book, and because of your studying it.?
                      Nor would he command you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after when you have submitted (to Allah)." (379,80)

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                      • WakasW Online
                        WakasW Online
                        Wakas
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        in addition to what herbman has said...

                        It is a myth that Hadith detail "traditional prayer". They detail various methods, some of which contradict etc
                        http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0 section 11.2.ii

                        All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                          abdalquran
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Salaam Beardo,

                          The seerah of the Prophet is a useful cultural narrative for us to belong to the Ummah of Muslims. It has very little to do with the Quran itself. To me, thats all the seerah is, simply part of my Islamic culture. Nothing divine at all.

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                            Indelwyn
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Salaam Beardo,

                            The seerah of the Prophet is a useful cultural narrative for us to belong to the Ummah of Muslims. It has very little to do with the Quran itself. To me, thats all the seerah is, simply part of my Islamic culture. Nothing divine at all.

                            Agreed! Allah did not intend for us to favor Prophet Muhammad over other messengers. Hence why very little is on him. The Qur'an is Allah's message to us. I am sure you heard the phrase "don't shoot the messenger". Same thing can go with Islam. Don't let the hadiths and fairytales snatch you away from Allah's guidance, just read his book )

                            "The Messenger has believed in what was sent down upon him from his Lord and so have the believers. Each has believed in God and HIS Angels and His Scriptures and His Messengers, "We do not make distinction amongst HIS Messengers!" And they said, "We heard and we obeyed! Grant us Your forgiveness, our Lord, and unto You is the final destiny." (2285)

                            Also you will find this group very helpful. They are open-minded as well as knowledgeable. I was close to walking away, but now I am beginning to re-educate myself and pull out the myths from my head. Once I started going over things and purchased a few new books, even one from Mr.. Edip Yuksel, today. You will start to feel that peace you did when you entered Islam. Before it was tainted by hadith and culture.

                            Peace and blessings.. and WELCOME

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                            • T Offline
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                              TruthBehindIt
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Salam and a lot of Peace on you!

                              (1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

                              You must discard the "ahadith" because its all "Unauthorized human effort" to take people away from Allah's worshipping and put them into Muhammad's worshipping.

                              If you contemplate into these Verses, it clearly tells us The Truth

                              -----"It is not (possible) for a human that Allah should give him The Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, then afterwards he would say to the people ?Be my worshippers instead of Allah,? but (he would say) ?Be you worshippers of the Lord, because of your teaching of the Book, and because of your studying it.?
                              Nor would he command you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after when you have submitted (to Allah)." (379,80)

                              By following Allah's Book alone, we worship Allah alone.

                              The Messenger would never say "Worship me", because he himself never wrote a book of Deen.

                              The above quoted Verse says-----?Be you worshippers of the Lord, because of your teaching of the Book, and because of your studying it.?
                              So, worshipping "The Lord" is connected with "The Book of The Lord".

                              None of the Messengers ever wrote books of their ahadith.
                              They were not the inventor of Commandments, they were rather bringer and conveyer of "The Message".

                              (2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

                              Hadith never gave us one method of Salat.
                              Different sects have different methods of Salat. Which method is correct?

                              And is it not a fact that the method given in ahadith, can not be verified from Al-Quran???

                              Salat is remembering Allah alone, but in "Hadith-Salat", With Allah, you remember Muhammad (SAW) also.

                              This is what Hadith have done.-----Corruption in Deen!---Haram and Mushrik Sects!---Hate!---Extremism!---Terrorism!

                              Salat is in Al-Quran, the method is also there.

                              -----?Indeed, I am Allah, there is no god except Me, so worship Me and establish Salat for My remembrance.? (2014)
                              Also see Reply No 1

                              (3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

                              Al-Quran does not tell us about the Messenger (his Seerah).-----Why???---Because we don't have to mention, remember and worship the Messenger.
                              Al-Quran tells us about Allah Whom we have to revere, mention, remember, worship and serve.

                              Indeed, Allah's Quran tells us about what the Messenger did.
                              He followed The Quran that he brought.
                              We have to obey him by following what he followed-----i.e. Al-Quran!

                              -----"Say (O Messenger) ?If I go astray, I shall stray only against myself, and if I am guided, so it is because of what my Lord has revealed to me. Indeed, He is Hearer, Near." (Saba-50)

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                                B Offline
                                Beardo
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                The prayer of the Islamists is pagan Namaz, and hadith does not teach how to perform it. You cannot show how to pray as the Islamists pray using hadith. You say "Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed".
                                Prove it. Show us, using only hadith, how to pray as the pagan Islamists pray today. The phrases, the positions, the times, all of it.

                                Fascinating. A thousand flowers of gratitude for shedding some light on your philosophy. It's been many years now since I've peeked between the covers of the Hadiths having joined the God-Is-Dead crowd, but I was labouring under the impression that it was from there which one drew the particulars of salat. So much for intellectual indpendence. To be clear, is it your contention that there is no such instruction for how to perform salat at all, or that there is only some partial details out of which it is constructed because if that is the case the people whom you call Islamists might counter that the information imparted by the Quran and Hadith combined form the modern prayer format.

                                Care to clarify?

                                Polytheists cannot understand Allah did not teach Namaz ? pagan prayer of the Islamists.

                                I'm not sure I follow the meaning of "namaz". Is that another term for salat because I seldom encountered it in my Salafi incarnation? When you say that the Islamist form of prayer is pagan, can you support this with historical data? I know that the Ka'aba was a pagan shrine devoted to a pantheon of Meccan Gods one of whom was Allah, but the prayer is news to me.

                                Every aspect of prayer is described in the Quran.

                                Ablution Surah 443, 56
                                What to wear Surah 731, 2430-31
                                Remove shoes on holy ground Surah 2012

                                Purpose of salat
                                To study the revelation of Allah, the word of an honored Messenger; the Quran Surah 2121, 3113, 1698, 2792, 2945, 3529, 373, 732-4, 7320, 961
                                Seek refuge in Allah from the accursed satan Surah 1698
                                Recite the Quran Surah 7204, 82, 1698, 1745, 17107, 2792, 2853, 2951, 3334, 734, 7518
                                Pray in moderate tone Surah 7205, 17110-111
                                Declare submission to Allah, praise Allah, thank Him Surah 11-7; 2014; 17110-111; 245
                                Pray to Allah and only Allah Surah 7218; 2945, 6162; 2014
                                Communicate with Allah Surah 443, 17110-111
                                Reverence Surah 232
                                Ask for help, protection, guidance, forgiveness, and knowledge Surah 2201, 2286, 3147, 3193, 11-7

                                Examples of prayer Surah 11-7, 2201, 2250, 2286, 38, 338, 3147, 3191-194, 475, 583, 723,155-156, 747, 7126, 1085-86, 1141,1147, 12101,1440-41,1780,1810, 2025-28, 20114, 2183,87-88, 2329, 2397-98,118, 2574, 2719, 2816, 407-9, 4615, 5410, 5910, 605, 7128, 113 (all), 114 (all)

                                Impressive. I haven't had time to consult all those passages yet, but how would you describe the main difference between your mode of prayer and the mainstream one? Is there an agreed upon convention among the Quranists for how to pray or is it individually determined?

                                What I know, I know from the Quran. Why would I want to serve a man when I can serve the Creator of all things?

                                I left Christianity because I was lied to all my life by men, on both sides of the pulpit. I see no reason to return to believing them when they cannot uphold the Truth that is still with us today.

                                There is merit in your words. I grant that Muhammad is deified by Muslims. I would be less than truthful if I said that I did not find it strange that you don't much care to know the biography of the postman who delivered a message on which hung your imperishable soul. To be clear, am I right in thinking that the Seerah and the Hadith are all just forests and forests of pagan fables?

                                Thanks.

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                                  Beardo
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Salam, Peace and welcome,

                                  (1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

                                  I will give you an image to answer this
                                  When talking about the moon, one points the moon with the finger, you look at the finger or at the moon? Same here the prophete came and delivered a message, what do you think all is about, the message or the messenger?

                                  That's a fine rejoinder. I will bear it in mind. I find the idolatry of Muhammad about whom there are many sinister things in the ahadith troubling.

                                  (2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

                                  Again, let's be rational, you have a Book (The Qur'an) that speaks about something let's call it SALAT, why you need to search somewhere else about what and how you perform SALAT.

                                  An example when you have a manual for a vacuum cleaner, you don't search in Encyclopedia how your device work, you just try to understand your original manual from the manufacturer.

                                  I guess I'm still reeling from my Salafi indoctrination. Your words ring logically sound, but it may be some time before my godless heart can register it.

                                  (3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

                                  Personnaly I store it in the category "Tales and Legends", like many islamic books copied these tales from other tales e.g. the Isra and Mi'rage has the same tales with moses, the tale about the spider web in the cavern = same tale about Mary etc etc

                                  Interesting. I'm forcibly struck by the observation that Quranists don't set much stock by Muhammad's life. Does this not expose you to the charge of following someone about whose character and integrity you are ignorant?

                                  And the Mi'rage is related in the Quran I thought, no?

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                                    Beardo
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    in addition to what herbman has said...

                                    It is a myth that Hadith detail "traditional prayer". They detail various methods, some of which contradict etc
                                    http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0 section 11.2.ii

                                    Point well taken. I will read that deconstruction when I get a moment. The contradictions I find don't quite bother me because they can be rationalised away. What robs me of sleep is that the conventional mode of prayer might be all sound and fury signifying nothing.

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                                      Beardo
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      Salaam Beardo,

                                      The seerah of the Prophet is a useful cultural narrative for us to belong to the Ummah of Muslims. It has very little to do with the Quran itself. To me, thats all the seerah is, simply part of my Islamic culture. Nothing divine at all.

                                      Uh-huh. As a Muslim I was aware never to conflate the Quran with the exegetical literature, but I want to understand whether you lend credence to the Seerah in part or whole or whether it should be stocked in the fictional category of supermarkets.

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                                        raginggaijin
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        Dear Raging
                                        As per Surah 731 that you quoted, there is a mention of "Masjid" (English equivalent "Temple", I think). In this regard, if we wish to offer praryer as per Quran, can we offer in the usual masjids that are spread everywhere or (if you consider those usual masjids as offering pagan prayers, which are not prescribed by Quran) then is there a specific place that we should go to which we call the similar masjid mentioned in 731 that is not the one offering pagan prayers as mentioned by you?

                                        Why wouldn't you pray in a Masjid? I pray in our local Masjid, though I do not participate in their pagan Namaz.
                                        "The places of worship belong to God; so call not, along with God, upon anyone." Surah 7218

                                        If you are uncomfortable praying in a Masjid, perform your prayer at home, as described in the Quran.
                                        "And remember that which is recited in your houses of the signs of God and the Wisdom; God is All-subtle, All-aware." Surah 3334

                                        Also, you have summarized in detail various Quranic references for Prayer. This apparently look almost the same as the usual prayers that people offer which according to your understanding is pagan prayer. Due to apparent similarities, it is difficult for me to figure out what is the real difference between the pagan prayer (as per your post) and the Quran prescribed prayer. Can you summarize the key differences between the two for my better understanding.

                                        1. I recite the Quran by opening it up and reading it out loud, starting off where I left off at my last period of salat. (I have read the Quran from cover-to-cover numerous times now, alhamdulillah!) Sometimes my salat can take as little as 5 minutes or last as long as 45 minutes in the evening, when I have more time to devote to reading.
                                          I don't recite memorized phrases of Namaz.
                                        2. I don't perform Namaz - ritual poses and genuflections. I stand while reading the Quran, then prostrate in prayer. That's it.
                                        3. Ablution is according to the Quran, not according to the ritual washing of the Islamists. (3 times starting on the left, 3 times on the right, etc.)
                                        4. My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, the building that surrounds the Kaaba. My qiblah is not the Kaaba.

                                        Peace.

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                                          Beardo
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Agreed! Allah did not intend for us to favor Prophet Muhammad over other messengers. Hence why very little is on him. The Qur'an is Allah's message to us. I am sure you heard the phrase "don't shoot the messenger". Same thing can go with Islam. Don't let the hadiths and fairytales snatch you away from Allah's guidance, just read his book

                                          How would you respond to the notion that the Quran is replete with prophetic stories about Moses, Jesus and the like whereas the biography of Muhammad is well nigh absent, hence the need for a secondary literature?

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