Lost Salafi Here

[Beardo]

The answer is simple Do we really need it?

If the answer you got is yes.. then even the Quran is not clear on the biography of some characters which are being mentioned..
For example

• Where did Abraham born?
• What is Abraham birth date?
• Who is this 'our servant' who talk to Moses and mentioned in 1865?
• Where did he born?
• What's his favorite food?
• Did he like dog too?
• Ah speaking about dog.. who is this dog being mentioned in the story of the cave in the Quran?
• Is it a poodle dog? or more of a terrier dog?
• I'm dead serious!! Because I'm planning to have a dog at my house! And I want to follow Quran 100%! As thus my dog must be the type of dog that's being mentioned in the Quran!
• And where did the companion of the Cave bought the dog? I want to buy from the same petstore...
• What kind of dog food that they feed it with?
• Did they broom the dog at the pet saloon too? Which saloon is that?
• Did they feed it 2 or 3 times a day?
• Does it like Friskies too? Although Friskies is more of a cat food rather than dog food..
• What you didn't like dog?
• Why? Should I buy a cat instead then?
• Is there any cat recommended in the Quran?
• I mean the type of the cat of course.. a persian or angoran.
• Does Moses like cat too?
• How about Abraham? Which one would he prefer? A cat or a dog?
• You really think he would prefer a camel instead?
• What type of camel is recommended by Islam?
• How should we feed the camel according to Islam?
• Is it okay to feed the camel with Friskies?

(PS See how ridiculous the way of thinking are... and it can be easily constructed in 'monthy-python skecth' styled of dialogue and it shall became a perfect joke material)

Salam / Peace

Funny. Your words have merit. I've always thought that the Quran was hopelessly thin on storylines because it jumps from short vignette to short vignette, from Adam and Eve in one line to Moses in the other to Abraham. Little character development. And often the stories are extremely repetitive without any additional details. The tale of the Children of Israel is retold a thousand times with little variation.

Can you tell me what, going by the Quran alone, one can know about Muhammad? I can't disentangle my Quran imparted knowledge of him and the Seerah. I imagine that if you throw out the biography of Ibn Ishaq you won't know so fundamental a thing as his name for if memory serves I don't think the Quran mentions him by that name; it calls him Ahmed I think, no? It's been some years so my command of the Quran is a little rusty.

You will miss key details like how he got the revelation and where, what made him fit for the prophetic mission, what the history of his mission was and how he surmounted political opposition from the Quriash and suchlike details. I'm not sure I can entrust my never dying soul to a document purporting to be of divine origin if I can't establish who delivered it.

So what facts about his life can we glean from just the Quran?

Thanks.

[Beardo]

You should study more on Judaism.. and it shall furthermore blew off your head!

What Is Judaism??

Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about G-d, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Shabbat, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, other people, and animals. This set of rules and practices is known as HALAKHAH.
http//www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm

And we can hear these statement as well from the salaf sunnis

Quit blowing my wig off! Your argument is sound. The more I probe the more I feel like an Orthodox Jew. I'm tickled by the fact that Sunnis model themselves on the one class of men they abominate.

No stand ...neither yes or no... due to lack of evidence or information at the moment.

If the Shaytan is an allegorical figment, does that mean there is no tempting whisperer that drags men down to hell? That's a radical departure from the Quran's countless threats of post-mortem retribution.

It's a bug on this forum script... which somehow incompatible with MS Internet Explorer.. try using mozilla firefox and it's all fine.

I'm using Mozilla Firefox as things stand! I'm really done for now aren't I? Maybe I should migrate to Chrome. But yes, it's inhibiting. Can you tell me how to bring up multiple quote brackets when I'm responding to something because right now I'm having to manually cut and post the quote brackets and it's a tiresome.

[herbman]

Salam and Peace,

You say you know details about the Prophete by reading ahadith and Sira.

What about if I tell you, no you are wrong, what you think you know is wrong

example1
In the Sira, the prophete has been bewitched by a jew, this is also the tafsir of surat 113 verse 4
In the Quran 1447
We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!"
1748
See what similes thy strike for thee; but they have gone astray, and never can they find a way.

example2
In the Sira the Prophete did miracles, e.g. giving 1000 of soldier water from his hands
In the Quransee 635, 637 etc etc

example3
In the Sira The prophete explain the Quran
In the Quran 551-2 It is Arrahman who teaches the Quran

many other examples....

Make your own conclusion.

ps I would not be so sure about who did the Isra, Muhamad, Moses or Ibrahim please search and make your own conclusion yourself.

Peace

[SarahY]

Your posts are intriguing or maybe it just amused me.

Different people will give you different responses even if they all classify themselves as "Quranic/Quranist etc"

Hadith is a source just like any other historical document. some documents have higher weighing than others because they've been backed up and proven, others are simply unknown. hadiths plays a huge part in muslim socio-cultral context. to deny all of them completely is like taking a big portion out of muslim heritage..

with seerah... in some instances hadiths are in confluence with the Quran. we dunno the character of Muhammed from the Quran in the same way we know him in hadith but is that all necessary?

Just because one takes Quran alone as a source of guidance or even divine law, it doesn't mean they can't gain knowledge of the prophet from Seerah. though keep in mind it doesn't necessarily mean such seerah is accurate. The Quran mentions the prophet by name check 3144.

how and where he got the revelation isn't exactly relevant? but i guess for you, you feel it is. that's something you'd have to reason with. If the prophet is a messenger that abided by the message and his character is the Quran (or walking Quran as tradition says) then one would need to resonate with themselves whether the message is what they agree with or not.. or i guess research what the Quran actually says exclusively about the prophet Muhammed.

There is no step by step instruction of how to perform salat in Quran however there are details of what is required in salat. you wont get the same precision as in hadith abu dawud, but the essentials... you could say e.g.

• 2014 salat is a dhikr
• 443 to be conscious not drunk and clean.
• 17110 to speak in a moderate tone
• 56 perform ablution
• 2238 to be diligent in salat by maintaining moderation/a balance
• 2237 to attend salat regularly.

there's heaps of discussion on salat and a lot more verses than those.

hope that helps

Salam

[Beardo]

example2

In the Sira the Prophete did miracles, e.g. giving 1000 of soldier water from his hands

In the Quransee 635, 637 etc etc

Steady now, this knocked me right back. That was one of the hadiths by which I was impressed when I was a Muslim for it imbued in Muhammad an otherwordly quality that I thought was fitting for God's very own postman. I had never known that miracles were denied to Muhammad. Poor widdle thing. Do we know if that was a Meccan or a Medinan verse because it might be argued it's an abrogated passage that has been superseded by a later one?

[Beardo]

Your posts are intriguing or maybe it just amused me.

Different people will give you different responses even if they all classify themselves as "Quranic/Quranist etc"

Hadith is a source just like any other historical document. some documents have higher weighing than others because they've been backed up and proven, others are simply unknown. hadiths plays a huge part in muslim socio-cultral context. to deny all of them completely is like taking a big portion out of muslim heritage..

with seerah... in some instances hadiths are in confluence with the Quran. we dunno the character of Muhammed from the Quran in the same way we know him in hadith but is that all necessary?

When I look at your avatar from which hotness radiates like heat from a stove my nipples harden. I think you need to veil up sister.

Your correction about Muhammad is duly noted. Looking it up I'm reminded that the surah was actually a favourite of mine. What I'm trying to establish is why, having shed the Muslim narrative about the making of Muhammad the Prophet, his honesty, his good character, his humble estate and his illiteracy you lend any credence to his message at all?

Let me clarify.

If you don?t know that he was a merchant universally admired for his moral rectitude and not a charlatan of whom there are a dime a dozen, if you don?t know that he was unlettered and so could not have penned the Quran himself, if you don?t know the process by which this message from beyond the clouds came to fruition, how would you know there was a message at all from a person that you do not know except from the Hadith?

[Jafar]

Steady now, this knocked me right back. That was one of the hadiths by which I was impressed when I was a Muslim for it imbued in Muhammad an otherwordly quality that I thought was fitting for God's very own postman. I had never known that miracles were denied to Muhammad. Poor widdle thing. Do we know if that was a Meccan or a Medinan verse because it might be argued it's an abrogated passage that has been superseded by a later one?

Hold on... who said that 'God's postman' need to do miracles?
Are you looking for wisdom or just some figures who can do 'hocus pocus magical tricks'?
I bet this 'way of thought' are influenced by the 'judeo-christianity' religion.. Jesus story to be exact..

This one is hilarious... Rowan Atkinson's rendition of "The Amazing Jesus"..
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzXJMU1sLc

It satirically criticized the 'christian way' of thinking.. not the story of Jesus per se..

Abrogation?? There's no such thing as abrogation...

Salam / Peace

[TruthBehindIt]

Salam and Peace, everyone!

1)---Salaat means "the ritual Salaat."
2)---Salaat also means "commitment to Al-Quran." (The meaning of Salaat becomes clear with reference to context. Sometimes it is only ritual, and sometimes it is commitment)

After all these dabates, we have not yet reached a final method of offering "the ritual Salaat."
Why?---Perhaps, there is something missing. And that something, that is missing is,---that we must go to our Allah and request Him to guide us, because there is no one except Allah to guide His slaves.

Read Al-Quran, and we will find that Allah is advising Ibraheem to offer Salaat the way He taught him to do.
It means that Allah taught Ibraheem the full method of ritual Salaat. And this full method must be in The Revelations that Ibraheem received from Allah.

And because once the full method of the ritual Salaat was given to Ibraheem, and this is valid until Al-Qiyamah, so may be in the next Revelations Allah didn't mention the method of Salaat, only commanded to offer Salaat (the method of which was already given to Ibraheem).

It means the method of ritual Salaat that we follow today,---is the same method of ritual Salaat that is coming down from generation to generation since Ibraheem.

It might have been so, that at different times people added to the real Salaat, some shirk things.
And whenever Allah's Messenger came, they did away with the shirk part that misguided people had added to Salaat, purified it, and gave it to the people.

The same Salaat was being offered at the time of Muhammad in Makkah. People had added shirk things again to the Salaat, and the real method was not easy to find out.
When Muhammad was declared as Messenger of Allah, he must have taken away shirk form the Salaat, purified it and gave it to ummah.

Allah declares in His Exalted Quran, that His Quran is in His Protection. It means that everything in Al-Quran is in Allah's Protection. Nothing from Al-Quran will be changed or lost.
So, Salaat is one of Allah's Commandments, so Salaat is also in Allah's Protection.

The way Al-Quran is coming down from generation to generation in Allah's Protection,-----the same way Salaat is also coming down from generation to generation in Allah's Protection.
Having Iman in it, we must believe that today we have the same method of ritual Salaat that was first given to Ibraheem.

Al-Quran is The Light. And The Light shows people what is right and what is wrong, what is Tauheed and what is shirk.

This will be our own fault, if in spite of having Allah's Quran (Allah's Guidance), we are unable to find out the real method of Salaat.

Now, look at the method of the Salaat, we presently have,-----examine it, in The Light of The Quran,-----and whatever shirk things we find in it, we must do away with that.
Rest is absolutely okay.
Reciting from Al-Quran, standing, ruku, sajdah, everything is alright.

Al-Quran, The Light,-----is Allah's Guidance,-----that will take us to the real method of the ritual Salaat.

Look at all the rituals different nations have. Our method of ritual Salaat is the best.
First you stand like an obedient slave before your Allah. Then you do ruku. Then you do sajdah.
No method, as such, is so obedient and humble as ours.

The Shirk-part in the Salaat that the majority of the ummah follows which is mentioned in Al-Bukhari, is the remembrance of the Prophet, i.e. Salam (called "Darood Shareef" in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).

Take away this Darood Shareef from the Salaat.
Salaat is for Allah's Remembrance only, and not the Prophet's.

-----?Indeed, I am Allah, there is no god except Me, so worship Me and establish Salat for My Remembrance.? (2014)

If there had been no Sahih Al-Bukhari, etc,---still we would have the same method of ritual Salaat that was given to Ibrheem (AS).
This is the "Millata Ibraheema (Salaat, Hujj, Umrah)" that Allah commanded the last Messenger to follow

-----"Then, We inspired you (O Messenger, saying) ?Follow the religion of Abraham, exclusively devoted. And he was not of those who associated (others with Allah)." (Al-Nahl-123)

If "Millata Ibraheema (Salaat, Hujj, Umrah)" had not been in Allah's Protection and if it had been disappeared,-----why would have Allah ordered the Messenger (and the ummah) to follow it, without mentioning their methods in datail in Al-Quran?

So, the methods of "Millata Ibraheema (Salaat, Hujj, Umrah)" was already there and being practiced, so Allah didn't mention their methods in Al-Quran.
The last Messenger only purified these rituals from shirk, and ordered his ummah to follow.

Salaat is not in Imam Bukhari's Protection.---Don't put the crown on his head.

Salaat is in Allah's Protection, and He knows how to protect it for His obedient slaves who do not commit shirk with Him.

As a matter of fact, I learned Salaat from my parents.---Never read Sahih Al-Bukhari.
My parents learned from their parents.---They never read Sahih Al-Bukhari.
Their parents learned from their parents.---They never read Sahih Al-Bukhari.
-----and this goes, until we reach the Prophet.
This is in Allah's Protection.

Where do we find Imam Bukhari?

Peace again!
A lot of Peace!

[Beardo]

That video is tickly Jafar. True enough the concept of miracle working is for those with an IQ south of ten, but the idea is a recurrent theme in the Quran wouldn't you agree?

I thought abrogation was dealt with in Sura 2 Verse 106.

Stray question Does the Quran specify how to perform Hajj or Zakah?

[Beardo]

Truth Behind It

In what you say there is much truth behind it.

But I'm finding to my consternation that each answer I get spawns ten other questions. I think Salat is the least of my worries at the present. I'm in doubt as to whether I'm expected to believe in a personal devil who whispers soft words in my ear which turneth God away.

[raginggaijin]

This blew my hair so far back that I?ve had to buy a wig. So the Hadith mongers are recycling the conventions of the much hated Hebrews. Amusing. I consulted Amazon and broke out in fits of laughter. I had known that some aspects of Islam were pilfered from the Zoroastrians because the description of the Last Day in the Hadith where the masses are made to cross a thin bridge under which is the flames of hell by which the faithful and the faithless are sorted is a direct plagiarism of Zoroastrianism, but who knew that much else was borrowed from the mushrikeen. I suspected that Namaz was not an Arabic term because I did not encounter it in my Islamic days. So it?s a Persian coinage then. Fascinating.

Fascinating was not the response I had when the full extent of the plagiarism was made clear to me. Coming from Trinitarian Christianity - a thin veil of monotheism covering the body of pagan polytheism - the deception of man was made clear to me within the sect I was guided out from later in life. "Believe, believe, believe, but on faith alone!"
It was in reading the entire Bible that proved to me what was in the Book wasn't being taught by man, and teaching me to be distrustful of man's teaching. I believe this was a good thing as the spiritual rug that was pulled out from under me made me question everything and everyone who came forth professing to know the Truth. There is a push for conformity - the need for everyone to believe as the group-think believes - which reminds me of a cancer agenda; cancerous cells that slowly multiply until it devours and kills the host.

When I was first introduced to hadith, it was easy to see they were additions of man; so many contradictions and teachings not found in the Quran. But the nagging question of where they came from abounded, especially when Allah tells us that these teachings are recycled teachings If they do it now, they did it in ancient times.

"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449

When investigation is made, the infiltration of all religions of man is made well apparent

Terrorism, violence and intolerance Deut. 2010-18, Num. 3117, Num. 3132-35, Joshua 621-24, I Sam.l 1827, I Kings 1840
Religious compulsion (kill unbelievers) Lev. 2416, Ph. 210; Deut 172-7, II Chron.1513, Deut. 135-10
Apostasy Deut. 135-10
Suicide Mission Judges 1627-30
Stoning Adulterers Deut. 2223-24, Lev. 210, John 86-8
Sunni ?Al-Aqeedah? Gen. 221-19, James 221, Heb. 117, Rom. 416
Halal/kosher food Lev. 111-46
Genital mutilation Gen. 1713-14, Gen. 1723-25, Exo. 424-26
Grow a beard Lev. 1927, Lev. 215, II Sam. 105
Cover your head Lev. 106, II Maccabes 4412, Shabbat 156b
?Cover your head in order that the fear of heaven may be upon you.?
Djjal/All-Seeing Eye/Head Corner-stone Job 384-7, Zech. 1117, Mat. 622, Luke 1134, Eph. 221-22, Rev. 16213, Rev. 1920, Rev. 2010
Slavery Lev. 2544-46, Lev. 2210-11, Exo. 2132
Females are unclean Lev. 122-5, Lev. 1519-25
Proof of virginity Deut. 2215-21
Raped girl should be killed Deut. 2222-29
Hijab I Cor. 113-6
Men dominate women I Cor. 113, I Peter 31-7, Eph. 522-24
Daughters are property Exo. 217
Women have no rights I Tim. 211-15, I Cor. 1434-36
Pedophilia Sanhedrin 52b, 54b, 55b, 69a, Kethuboth 11b, Yebamoth 60b

None of these teachings are in the Quran.
The Islamists are better Christians and Yahudians than the modern day Christians and Yahudians. They uphold what is in the Bible because it is all recycled into hadith.

I observe that your reading of the Quran has a modern ring. I thought I would never see the day when the tale of Soloman would clothe itself in Freudian garb. It?s certainly more plausible than the Doctor Dolittle rendition one commonly encounters.

Why would I not use my common sense, the intellect Allah gave us? I am grateful for His blessings.
Throughout the Quran Allah tells us repeatedly to use our heads. He even tells us to go into the world and research How He originated man, how He originated creation, what happened to the ancients, if people are telling the Truth or feeding us lies.

The Quran upholds the theory of Evolution, but with proof of Divine Intervention.

Strengthened joints ? walking upright
?We created them, and We strengthened their joints; and, when We will, We shall exchange their likes.? Surah 7628

See the signs left of original creation ? Fossil record
?Have they not seen how Allah originates creation, then brings it back again? Surely that is an easy matter for Allah.
?Say Journey in the land, then behold how He originated creation; then Allah causes the second growth to grow; Allah is powerful over everything,? Surah 2919-20

Nasi made from cell division, then progeny through intercourse Surah 326
?He is the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible, the All-mighty, the All-compassionate, Who has created all things well. And He originated the creation of man (al-insani) of clay (min teenin), then He fashioned his progeny of an extraction (sulalatin) of low (maheenin) water (ma-in), then He shaped (sawwahu) him, and breathed His spirit (roohihi) in him. And He appointed for you hearing, and sight, and hearts; little thanks you show.? Surah 326-9

There is only one Nasi spoken of in the Quran who was shaped and had Allah's ruh breathed into him - Adam (pbuh) Surah 1529, 329, 3872

If all human beings sprung from the joining of one couple, Allah would not make distinction between the bloodline of the Prophets (pbut), as we all would be from the seed of Adam (pbuh).

Seed of Adam Surah 333, 684, 7172, 1958
Men of mankind (rijalun mina al-insi), Men of jinn (birijalin mina aljinni) Surah 726

Earlier I spoke of Jinn as the Gentiles not of the Hebrew (Nasi) lineage. I get into numerous arguments with people - both Islamist and professed Muslims - who uphold the 'creation of fire' is proof they are spiritual creatures. Even the leading scholars in the Islamist sects and the Quranist sects - like the Code 19 Submitter Edip Yuksel - uphold Jinn are spirits/demons. Yet these same people profess to believe in the scientific miracles found within the Quran. It boggles my mind.

I need proof before I can believe. So I asked Allah to make clear to me what the Jinn are, since the Quran does not uphold them to be spiritual beings; only humans were sent as Messengers.

It was in searching for proof there is a Creator that Allah made clear to me Surah 2130

"Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe?" Surah 2130

This is from the Arberry Quran, translated in 1950. The Yusuf Ali Quran, translated in the 1920s reads

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Surah 2130

I cannot take credit for this, as I heard this from a professor in Mathematics, and it was in researching to see if this was true that it was made clear. If I am told something, I cannot believe blindly. I must confirm (saddaqat) to see if I am told the Truth or told a fabrication.

In 1978, the Nobel Prize was awarded for the theory of the Big Bang. This theory postulates that the universe was one mass - a monoblock - that was blown apart and sent out into the void.

Press release for 1978 Nobel Peace Prize
http//nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1978/press.html

"A theory developed by the American physicist Gamow and his associates suggested that this synthesis took place at the beginning of the existence of the universe. It is known from studies of the spectra of stars and galaxies that the universe is at present expanding uniformly. This means that at a certain point, 15 billion years ago, the universe was very compact; it is thus tempting to assume that the universe was created by a cosmic explosion, or 'big bang', although other explanations are possible. This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees. Only at those temperatures can various nuclear reactions take place such that chemical elements could be built up from the elementary particles assumed to be present from the very beginning."

Here Scientists - the largest group of unbelievers I know of who cannot believe in something without proof - are showing how the components of all life and matter in the universe was created in this one Big Bang of intense heat and expansion.

Jinn created before Nasi of a released, scorching fire Surah 1527, 5515
?And He created (Wakhalaqa) the jinn of (aljanna min) release (marijin) of fire (min narin).? Surah 5515
?and the jinn created We before of fire scorching (alssamoomi).? Surah 1527

So while an Islamist sees evil fire creatures lurking in the aether, I see the intense heat of the Big Bang creating the components of all life itself.

But what about the creation of the universe? If Allah speaks of creation of life, won't I find creation of the galaxies such as the one we live in as well? The Quran states

"Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly." Surah 4111

The 1978 Press Release continues

"The question then remains of what would have happened to the debris of the explosion matter, consisting of hydrogen, helium and various other light elements, would have expanded as a hot cloud of gas which would gradually have cooled down to form condensations, which developed into galaxies and stars."

In 2010 the expansion of the radiation signature continues to confirm the theory of the Big Bang.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
"Based on the best available measurements as of 2010, the original state of the universe existed around 13.7 billion years ago, which is often referred to as the time when the Big Bang occurred. The theory is the most comprehensive and accurate explanation supported by scientific evidence and observations."

References
^ Komatsu, E.; et al. (2009). "Five-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe Observations Cosmological Interpretation". Astrophysical Journal Supplement 180 (2) 330. Bibcode 2009ApJS..180..330K. doi10.1088/0067-0049/180/2/330.
^ Menegoni, E.; et al. (2009). "New constraints on variations of the fine structure constant from CMB anisotropies". Physical Review D 80 ( 087302. arXiv0909.3584. Bibcode 2009PhRvD..80h7302M. doi10.1103/PhysRevD.80.087302.
^ "Origins CERN Ideas The Big Bang". The Exploratorium. 2000. Retrieved 2010-09-03.
^ Keohane, J. (November 8, 1997). "Big Bang theory". Ask an astrophysicist. GSFC/NASA. Retrieved 2010-09-03.
^ Feuerbacher, B.; Scranton, R. (25 January 2006). "Evidence for the Big Bang". TalkOrigins. Retrieved 2009-10-16.
^ Wright, E.L. (9 May 2009). "What is the evidence for the Big Bang?". Frequently Asked Questions in Cosmology. UCLA, Division of Astronomy and Astrophysics. Retrieved 2009-10-16.

So opponents cannot tell me these ayats were retranslated to suit the discovery. Translations have been with us since the 1920s that uphold this discovery.

And as Surah 2130 states 'and of water fashioned every living thing', it wasn't until the microscope was discovered in the 1500s, and perfected in the 1700s, that the discovery was made At a cellular level, all living things are composed of water. Even viruses contain waters, as the 1950s studies into the Swine Flu virus proved.

Allah tells us repeatedly in the Quran to ask for proof. Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238
As a person who was misled by man, I have a right to ask for proof Proof that the Book I am told comes from our Creator truly has an Author that was there at the beginning of creation. The Quran provides this proof. Proof that has been with us for 1400 years, but lay unknown until Scientists - unbelievers - discovered this aspect of creation.

So when I look into the creation of man, I cannot see superstition and fairy tale. I see logical, reasonable explanations based on the sunnati Allahi - the way of Allah - that was started at the beginning of all things.

How can I not believe?

But I must say that I?ve always had a soft spot for Iblis. The rest of the Choir Invisible appeared to me as little better than mindless automatons without any self volition, without humanity. Here was someone who thought and behaved if not always correctly at least independently of the robotic angels. He was an individual. Not a mass produced thing on an assembly line. And as Mark Twain asked Of all the sinners of the globe, who is in more urgent need of prayer than the most deformed of spirit? The apposite response I?ve always felt was pity, not the hatred and vilification that is the everyday speech of Muslims.

Don't mistake service and obedience for automation. It is harder to sublimate the ego and humble ourselves than it is to serve our base desires. That is why it is called the uphill road in the Quran. Surah 9011-18

The greatest trick Iblis ever did was make you think he is you.

A pressing question Do you reject the existence of the devil as a corporeal entity?

Yes. There is only Allah. All the rest are His servants He is in control of.
How can I believe in a insubstantial boogey-man when Man has proven to be a far more insidious creation?

In a former life when I was a member of the Sword of the Infidel-Slayer Mosque, I demanded no evidence beyond what I read in the Hadith. I taught lessons in tajweed at the mosque which I now understand have no scriptural support. A pity really, for the Quran Aloners might not care for such things but I could break out in flights of Quranic recital that would make the angels dance and bliss rain from the sky. Since then I haven?t much seen a Quran for seven years. My brain has naturally been wiped clean of anything I memorised beyond the shorter chapters which by some reason remain firmly etched in my skull. I?m not even sure I even retain the capacity to read Arabic fluently.

Allah grants knowledge to whom He pleases. If you could read Arabic, and understand it, you are in a far better position to clarify and confirm (saddaqat) the Truth that is even now attempted to be covered over in numerous translations. Insha'Allah, you will read the Quran again, with rational, logical eyes based on reason and evidence.

I own 22 Qurans, included in that number is the Arabic revelation. Out of all of those, only 3 translations strive to stay true to the Arabic revelation, and even then there are biases in translation.
Don't think that this deters anyone from knowing the Truth or the deen. Good deeds are spoken of more often in the Quran than prayer, and all the commands of upholding salat, paying zakat, and doing the deeds of a believer are clear in every translation. It is in the allegory that you need to return to the Arabic revelation, as many strive to teach fairy tales and superstition instead of logic, reason, and evidence-based theory.

The Islamic period was a time of great scientific and philosophical advancements. Yet you can see when hadith took hold and the foundation of the Caliphate was rotted at the core, destroying the pursuit of knowledge in upholding superstitious belief.

My present theological convictions are that there is no cosmic tenant beyond the clouds, but the more I interact on this board the more I wonder if my flight of faith had not more to do with the bottomless superstitions of my own school of Muslim thought. I rejoice to learn that your convictions are less zany than the hadith crowd because I had read a good number of Bukhari volumes and found them, upon questing on a philosophical voyage, one notch above nursery rhymes like the tale of Moses encountering a running stone and how the Prophet split the moon in half and suchlike.

You speak of the splitting of the moon, and I am reminded of an Atheist who thought to ridicule me. I pointed him to the discovery made in the early 1900s, confirmed and proven to worsen in 2010

Dec. 14, 1904 - Prof. Pickering discovers cracks in the moon
http//query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00E10FD3A5C12738DDDAD0994DA415B848CF1D3

Surface cracks show the moon is shrinking
http//www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7954686/Surface-cracks-show-the-Moon-is-shrinking.html

The moon is cracking, splitting its crust, as it shrinks over the aeons. This was discovered in 1902 and confirmed recently, along with additional fissures, in 2010.

"The Hour has drawn nigh the moon is split (wainshaqqa alqamaru)." Surah 541
The Quran shows the use of the word 'shaqqa' means 'fissures'.
"then We split (shaqaqna) the earth (al-arda) in fissures (shaqqan)." Surah 8026

The Prophet (pbuh) did not split the moon. It is a natural event according to the way of Allah that would also be a sign of the approaching Day of Judgment. Time and again the fairy-tale explanation is destroyed by logic, reason, and evidence-based research.

But the truth be told I have to say that I found the regimentation of the human spirit suffocating, the ban on music, painting, sculpture and the general arts. I won?t be the first to observe that your movement has something of the air of the Reformation for Luther, spotting the layer upon layer of Bible-free Church conventions, warred too against the accretions that had slowly crowded out the true Christian essence. But Luther was opposed to the arts no less and thundered against ornamental churches so perhaps the likeness is not quite apt.

How can we be opposed to the Arts when Allah has made clear it is not forbidden in the Quran? He repeats in the Quran to enjoy the bounties that are good and lawful He provides in the world. And following the example of all Prophets (pbut) and not focusing on one, the Quran clearly shows Solomon (pbuh) was given many bounties in the Arts and Sciences because of His service to our Creator.
You will find Muslims - those who uphold only what Allah revealed - are the defenders of Art, Music, and Science.
If someone seeks to forbid that which Allah has not, it is a warning sign from Him

"O you who believe, forbid not the good things which Allah has made lawful for you and exceed not the limits. Surely Allah loves not those who exceed the limits." Surah 587
"The hypocrites, men and women, are all alike. They enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands. They have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them. Surely the hypocrites are the transgressors." Surah 967

On that note, I am an Artist myself, blessed with talent by Allah. I paint, sculpt, and render in classical and technological mediums. I also have a degree in Film Production/Animation that Allah has given me, and I use those talents in my free-time to create these videos that I post here. And this is on top of my training in Medicine, as a Surgical Assistant earned while in the Military, which Allah has allowed me to earn provision over the years. So please don't think Muslims are stuffy, humorless Puritans seeking to forbid enjoyment. I am living proof that isn't the case.
Allah is bountiful to those who are grateful. )

Incidentally, I rather enjoy the length of your posts in the age where most cyber conversations consist of emoticon filled one liners. No, by all means pour the bucket over my head.

Remember you said that. )
I enjoy writing and composition, as it seems to be becoming more and more of a lost Art in this age of texting and tweeting.

Stray question Why does my cursor slow down when I'm composing a post? As I move it about to quote something it feels laboured. Is it a bug or just me?

This website seems memory-intensive. I have issues with browsers that are not updated, like Internet Explorer. I use Firefox and have fewer issues.

Again, I apologize for the depth of information, and I fear it is only touching on what I am shown by Allah as time constraints and length keep my replies to the point.
And again, I must restate Don't believe me just because I say it is so. Confirm everything I bring forth, to ensure I am not leading you astray. At one time you believed in Allah, so I ask that you once again ask Him to guide you and explain to you.
You are here for a reason; Allah brought you here to speak to all of us. Ask yourself what that question was that preceded your journey to this destination.

"Say 'Who is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth?' Say 'God.' Say 'Then have you taken unto you others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power to profit or hurt themselves?' Say 'Are the blind and the seeing man equal, or are the shadows and the light equal? Or have they ascribed to God associates who created as He created, so that creation is all alike to them?' Say 'God is the Creator of everything, and He is the One, the Omnipotent.'" Surah 1316

I'm not a Quranist, I am a Muslim. That is the name Allah gave us in the Quran, so it is the name I use to describe myself.
Bear witness I submit my will to Allah. )

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

That video is tickly Jafar. True enough the concept of miracle working is for those with an IQ south of ten, but the idea is a recurrent theme in the Quran wouldn't you agree?

I thought abrogation was dealt with in Sura 2 Verse 106.

Allah abrogates previous Messages The Torah and the Injeel. The Quran does not abrogate itself. To do so would create a contradiction, which there are none in the Quran.

The Quran contains a falsification test

"What, do they not ponder the Quran? If it had been from other than God surely they would have found in it much inconsistency." Surah 482

This is a challenge Don't believe it comes from our Creator? Find a mistake.
This is a bold statement. Put this challenge on a test and turn it in to your Instructor, they won't sleep until they find a mistake. But here Allah is making those who disbelieve put their money where their mouth is Prove it doesn't come from Allah.
If the Quran abrogates itself, you would find a contradiction, which proves it doesn't come from Allah.
Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

Stray question Does the Quran specify how to perform Hajj or Zakah?

Yes.

Proof Zakat
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqNu7SzmLuI

Proof Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i21uxpnjyXg

The rituals performed by the Islamists are not found in the Quran, but in the teachings of the ancients.

Syncretism Rituals of Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_6d7KBew

If you want the scripts that quote the proofs from the Quran, let me know.

Alhamdulillah. D

Peace.

[Beardo]

Raging,

How sweeter than a candyfloss to suck from wisdom's fount! But steady, my tiny brain might explode.

In my salad days long before time began or anyone knew what it might be good for I used often to hand out Islamic pamphlets on the much trumpeted science miracles of the Quran so I am familiar with the claims advanced by Muslims. When I say that I find the splitting of the moon idea credulity straining, I do not mean that there are no craters in celestial bodies. The formation of planets after the Big Bang would itself create dents not just in the moon but on every planet including our own with its tectonic collisions. To single out the moon as having cracks in its structure is not to make a cosmological observation; it is more accurate to say that every planetary body has geological upheavals.

Galloping on to more pressing themes ...

Being a vegetarian myself I would like to grapple with an issue that troubles me about Islam. How does your philosophy account for the problem of animal suffering? If human suffering is a test of conviction from Allah, what is the use of visiting suffering on other sentient creatures when animals have no immortal soul that will be tried on the Last Day?

To be clear, what I mean is not animal suffering occasioned by human agency, but why the cosmic tenant would design a predatory food chain in which all creatures live one step away from having their innards torn out by the claws of a superior beast when he might have easily created them vegetarians as some already are. Billions live in constant terror of the laws of predation and billions perish in abject agony.

If animals are not moral agents endowed with free will, to what end is all this colossal suffering?

[SarahY]

his character is irrelevant, for example, how does one verify truth? by the person who said it? no.

made me think of you

2947 (Asad) For it is thus that We have bestowed this divine writ from on high upon thee . And they to whom we have vouchsafed this divine writ believe in it just as among those there are some who believe in it. And none could knowingly reject Our messages unless it be such as would deny truth

There are things that are unknown. Some things are not necessary to be known but if you actually grabbed a Quran or did a search you would find things to cure your ailment of curiousity. However more answers lead you to questions. So i think you need to get off your high horse of demands and seek knowledge yourself.
Here?s a start off

• The prophet is of the purified 3333
• Mohammad is a warner 2950
• God is with the prophet 940

3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward

[Beardo]

Sara

Your post made one shed bucketfuls of tears all night to wash away my sin halting only for prayer and sleep. I wish I was on a high horse my sweet, but I'm afraid to report I'm bestraddling a one eyed donkey. I have spent a number of years "seeking knowledge" as the phrase has it only to be informed by Your Excellency that my knowledge is nothing but mis-, dis-, and non-information. And so my questions.

I like that in the Republic of Faith more answers trigger more questions. Theology is anything about tedious. Can I suck from your fount of wisdom my little rabbit? It's tasty.

Some questions do not admit of resolution you say. And I should not fret much about the heavily bearded Postman bearing the true, the good and the beautiful. Duly noted.

Question of the day Is the Quran, stripped of its tafseer, not hard to penetrate? There are whole pages of it that I could not follow even with the aid of Ibn Kathir because of its poetic style which although very pleasant to recite in Arabic did not make for ready comprehension. It seems cryptic.

[TheNabi]

(1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

Ahadeeth are not discarded as the quran is replete with them. The quran is obviously not a personal biography of Muhammad. Simple as that.

(2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

Not from the quran though apparently it can be drawn from it by people. By "vague" do you mean different from what other ahadeeth expound?

(3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

I never read it.

Joe

[TheNabi]

Is the Quran, stripped of its tafseer, not hard to penetrate?

It usually is hard to penetrate when you already have concepts in mind at odds with the concepts in the quran which is why you spoke about the vagueness of "daily prayers". With that you tried to fit one concept with a quranic concept that's not there

Joe

[Beardo]

It usually is hard to penetrate when you already have concepts in mind at odds with the concepts in the quran which is why you spoke about the vagueness of "daily prayers". With that you tried to fit one concept with a quranic concept that's not there

Joe

I speak not of alien concepts. Just plain intelligibility. As the Quran reader will note, the book has a distinct rhyming scheme. The difficulty is that too often it sacrifices clarity for poetry with cryptic verses like ?Alif Laam Meem? and whole chapters whose meaning is elusive. Amusingly, the very next verse of that ayat is ?Thaalikal kitaabu laa rayba fee? meaning here's a book in which there is no doubt as though anyone understands what the preceding verse meant.

If the book is an extra-terrestrial communication designed to enlighten the race instead of bamboozle why not something which any schoolboy of ten can follow in this fashion

"Dear Sons of Adam,

I wanna share something with you. Many light years ago when I was bored stiff in my bachelor pad I had this notion of inventing some trousered apes to regale me out of which you featherless creatures grew. You?re welcome. I am God by the way. But you may call me Allah.

Now kids, a few cardinal rules. You must tongue my name every day and whoop me up, don?t be mean to each other, and try not to romance the barnyard animals.

Breach any of these rules my young things and you will breakdance in the lowest rung of Jahannam. Got that?

Till my next revelation, so long!

Sincerely,

Allah. ?

Whatever you make of that message, you cannot fault its clarity.

[raginggaijin]

Raging,
How sweeter than a candyfloss to suck from wisdom's fount! But steady, my tiny brain might explode.

And now we know the limits. P

In my salad days long before time began or anyone knew what it might be good for I used often to hand out Islamic pamphlets on the much trumpeted science miracles of the Quran so I am familiar with the claims advanced by Muslims. When I say that I find the splitting of the moon idea credulity straining, I do not mean that there are no craters in celestial bodies. The formation of planets after the Big Bang would itself create dents not just in the moon but on every planet including our own with its tectonic collisions. To single out the moon as having cracks in its structure is not to make a cosmological observation; it is more accurate to say that every planetary body has geological upheavals.

True, when faced with the breadth of knowledge we know now with the advanced technology Allah has gifted us.

Now put yourself in the middle of the Arabian desert 1400 years ago, and ask yourself if you can honestly make the same statement.
Therein lies the rub.

Galloping on to more pressing themes ...

Being a vegetarian myself I would like to grapple with an issue that troubles me about Islam. How does your philosophy account for the problem of animal suffering? If human suffering is a test of conviction from Allah, what is the use of visiting suffering on other sentient creatures when animals have no immortal soul that will be tried on the Last Day?

Human suffering is not a test of conviction, as we are given the right of self-defense after fleeing from persecution. The idea of 'turn the other cheek' is a Christian concept, not upheld in the Books revealed by Allah.
We are to endure patiently with the knowledge that deliverance will occur to those who believe, but we are not taught anywhere in the Quran that suffering is a test of conviction. Allah is very clear on what we are to do, and not to do, in the Quran.

To be clear, what I mean is not animal suffering occasioned by human agency, but why the cosmic tenant would design a predatory food chain in which all creatures live one step away from having their innards torn out by the claws of a superior beast when he might have easily created them vegetarians as some already are. Billions live in constant terror of the laws of predation and billions perish in abject agony.

Such is life. Whereas you see horror, I - being raised on a farm in my youth - see the natural cycle of life. Even the plants you rip out of the earth must die for those that consume them to live. They no longer grow, nor suckle water from the soil or branch that held it.

Is their death easier because you cannot hear their screams?

If animals are not moral agents endowed with free will, to what end is all this colossal suffering?

They are signs from Allah and blessings provided by Him.

"And it is God who sends down out of heaven water, and therewith revives the earth after it is dead. Surely in that is a sign for a people who have ears." Surah 1665
"And a sign for them is the dead land, that We quickened and brought forth from it grain, whereof they eat;" Surah 3633
"Hast thou not seen how that God has sent down out of heaven water and threaded it as springs in the earth, then He brings forth therewith crops of diverse hues, then they wither, and thou seest them turning yellow, then He makes them broken orts? Surely in that is a reminder for men possessed of minds." Surah 3921

"And of the cattle, for burthen and for slaughter, eat of what God has provided you; and follow not the steps of the satans; he is a manifest foe to you." Surah 6142
"And the cattle -- He created them for you; in them is warmth, and uses various, and of them you eat, and there is beauty in them for you, when you bring them home to rest and when you drive them forth abroad to pasture; and they bear your loads unto a land that you never would reach, excepting with great distress. Surely your Lord is All-clement, All-compassionate." Surah 165-7
"And surely in the cattle there is a lesson for you; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies, between filth and blood, pure milk, sweet to drinkers. And of the fruits of the palms and the vines, you take therefrom an intoxicant and a provision fair. Surely in that is a sign for a people who understand. And thy Lord revealed unto the bees, saying 'Take unto yourselves, of the mountains, houses, and of the trees, and of what they are building. Then eat of all manner of fruit, and follow the ways of your Lord easy to go upon.' Then comes there forth out of their bellies a drink of diverse hues wherein is healing for men. Surely in that is a sign for a people who reflect.
God created you; then He will gather you to Him; and some of you will be kept back unto the vilest state of life, that after knowing somewhat, they may know nothing; God is All-knowing, All-powerful." Surah 66-70

Suffering and conflict are the agents of change, as any Sociology student will tell you. You cannot have change in entropy. Even in the timeline of this planet and the extinction events that have occurred, these events of seemingly horrendous suffering have been the course set by Allah to bring us where we are today. There is at no time a lasting peace, but always the ebb and flow, the rise and fall of change brought about by conflict.
Life is pain, princess. Anyone who tells you different is selling something.

I hear a lot of 'Why does your God allow suffering?'
Because man wanted to be left alone to their own desires. What steers the rudder of a man who does not believe he will be called to account for his deeds - both manifest and hidden? What will that man do when he believes he can get away with it?

How many crimes would not be committed if people realized they will be called to account after we have completed the term of this test called Life?
How much needless suffering occurs from the hands of men?

Man is the predator and the world with its inhabitants is the prey. Often that includes preying upon other men.

Signs from Allah.

"The likeness of this present life is as water that We send down out of heaven, and the plants of the earth mingle with it whereof men and cattle eat, till, when the earth has taken on its glitter and has decked itself fair, and its inhabitants think they have power over it, Our command comes upon it by night or day, and We make it stubble, as though yesterday it flourished not. Even so We distinguish the signs for a people who reflect." Surah 1024

But let us speak of the animals below us on the food chain.
Though animals have their natural cycle of predator versus prey, Allah has given us clear dictates on what we are allowed and forbidden to eat. Allah has made clear that carrion, an animal that dies by traumatic incident, is an unclean animal. These acts that cause an animal to suffer unto death are forbidden and clearly detailed.

"Forbidden to you are carrion, blood, the flesh of swine, what has been hallowed to other than God, the beast strangled; the beast beaten down, the beast fallen to death, the beast gored, and that devoured by beasts of prey - excepting that you have sacrificed duly -- as also things sacrificed to idols, and partition by the divining arrows; that is ungodliness. Today the unbelievers have despaired of your religion; therefore fear them not, but fear you Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Al-Islam for your religion. But whosoever is constrained in emptiness and not inclining purposely to sin -- God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 53

So while we are at the top of the food chain, even our Creator has made clear that suffering is not something He condones - even in the animal kingdom.

Look to the predators and see how Allah has taught them to slay their prey. What do you find in your observance of their kills?

I thank Allah for cattle, and the meat, milk, and leather they provide. There is so much good in the world He has created, I find it impossible to count His blessings. )

When shown all these signs, the question remains Will you then believe?

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

Question of the day Is the Quran, stripped of its tafseer, not hard to penetrate? There are whole pages of it that I could not follow even with the aid of Ibn Kathir because of its poetic style which although very pleasant to recite in Arabic did not make for ready comprehension. It seems cryptic.

If you aren't seeking guidance, you won't be guided.

Allah knows what you hear, and with what you hear with Surah 820-23, 636, 1747, 2451, 3053, 3918, 4130, 6416

"Answer only will those who hear; as for the dead, God will raise them up, then unto Him they will be returned" Surah 636
"If God had known of any good in them He would have made them hear; and if He had made them hear, they would have turned away, swerving aside." Surah 823
"Thou shalt not guide the blind out of their error neither shalt thou make any to hear except for such as believe in Our signs, and so surrender." Surah 3053

Insincere readers are diverted from the meaning of the Quran Surah 7146, 1745-47, 1857, 4144, 3923

"When thou recitest the Koran, We place between thee, and those who do not believe in the world to come, a curtain obstructing," Surah 1745
"And who does greater evil than he who, being reminded of the signs of his Lord, turns away from them and forgets what his hands have forwarded? Surely We have laid veils on their hearts lest they understand it, and in their ears heaviness; and though thou callest them to the guidance, yet they will not be guided ever." Surah 1857

At what point will a person turn to Allah and ask Him to explain the Quran?
Who better than the One who created man?

?And thus have We made for every prophet an enemy from among the guilty, and sufficient is thy Lord as a Guide and a Helper." Surah 2531
?Allah desires to explain to you, and to guide you into the ways of those before you, and to turn to you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.? Surah 426
"Move not thy tongue therewith to make haste with it. Surely on Us rests the collecting of it and the reciting of it. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Again on Us rests the explaining of it." Surah 7516-19

You read numerous ayats where the Quran is clearly stated to not be poetry, but a Guidance and a Reminder.
What happens when you stop reading it like poetry and start reading it like an Instruction Manual?

Let us know what happens.

Peace.