a confused soul.
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The above statement verifies that you don't even know my understanding of the word "quran" which I have shared with you many times.
"quran" means reading, andy truthful reading (non contradictory) is from the God. So all you need to do is to bring me some non contradicting information which i can verify, and I will accept it. For example, if you tell me that if I place water at 32 degrees, it will freeze, I will accept that.
you explain this concept of 'quran' to me but it only proof that you subjectively apply it. for example, if i tell you 1 + 1 = 2, you will accept it? yet you deny the koran mathematical miracle. if the quran implies "any truthful reading" then why deny that other 'readings' can provide tanigble proof and expresses what is true, why deny the historical and previous scripture confirmation of salat, the contact prayer?
Not true. Do they call the armed forces the "worship" or the "service"? You should ponder during the night on these things.
the term are interchangable, especially in religion. Why? Because worship implies more that just 'service'.
You still don't understand my point. When one reads abour salaat, they start to look for details. So they see verses regarding speech, and tone, and reading, they see NOTHING about getting on the ground 5 times a day, yet they continue to search for something that should not even be in thier minds.
what i was saying is the 'details' should not be an argument against salat. it is like saying, 'walk' doesnt mean 'walk' because it is not detail how to.
Try not thinking about anything you learned regarding salaat, then try to look for deatials in THIS reading(quran). They are there. There is no reason that one should be looking for the traditional method, NOTHING in the reading points us in this direction.
i dont look for 'details' of salat in the koran, because i will need to seek 'details' in everything ever mention in the koran, which is illogical. the absence of details is not a stronge arugment against salat.
the evidence is this - GOD links such movements to worship and submission.
Show me the verse. Please.bow/prostrating linked with worship 2277
bow/prostrating linked with submission 343, 7748 (plus many others)even you can deny that GOD link bow and prostrating as symbolic gestures of worship and submission within Koran. Even in nature as well. Look how an animal submits to another, observe how creature express submission, by bowing, prostrating or crouching to the ground.
I said the MIND(nafs), not the brain which is a physical organ.
i believe the soul(nafs) as a tanigble entity of "self awareness". but I understand your intrepretation as Mind.
Its intersting that you agree with science, but when I tell you that salaat is the learning process which uses the method of reading THIS reading(quran) in the morning and evening (repitition), you come back with some traditional bowing to the ground which has no verification in the God's Message.
i agree that repitition is a great way to reforce, retain, and remember. That have nothing to do with your personal intrepretation of salat. Has a contact prayer, the science still proof vital and testfiy to the truth. You always say that 'the reading' is any reading of truth, yet you deny the truth contact prayer provide.
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Peace be upon you Idris,
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The cause and effect situations of life (rape/fornication, etc), will show us the path we should followwhat did you mean by this right here? (speaking on the rape/fornication part)
What I was trying to get across is that we can see how certain causes lead to certain effects. In order to change the outcomes we have to change the causes.
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Peace be upon you SHM,
you explain this concept of 'quran' to me but it only proof that you subjectively apply it. for example, if i tell you 1 + 1 = 2, you will accept it? yet you deny the koran mathematical miracle.
Correctumundo! 1+1=2 I can prove, I cant even find the word "Miracle" in this reading(quran).
if the quran implies "any truthful reading" then why deny that other 'readings' can provide tanigble proof and expresses what is true,
Where have you seen me deny that? (within the last year anyway) I accept ALL TRUTH. So if you have some truthful evidence, please provide it.
why deny the historical and previous scripture confirmation of salat, the contact prayer?
I only deny that which is contradictory.
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Not true. Do they call the armed forces the "worship" or the "service"? You should ponder during the night on these things.the term are interchangable, especially in religion. Why? Because worship implies more that just 'service'.
I asked you a simple question, I will ask it again, do people call the armed forces the "service" or the "worship" and why?
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You still don't understand my point. When one reads abour salaat, they start to look for details. So they see verses regarding speech, and tone, and reading, they see NOTHING about getting on the ground 5 times a day, yet they continue to search for something that should not even be in thier minds.
what i was saying is the 'details' should not be an argument against salat. it is like saying, 'walk' doesnt mean 'walk' because it is not detail how to.
But when there ARE details already there, why are you looking for a whole other set of details? Thats what I am asking you. If the God explained how to walk for example, why would you look for another set of details on how to walk?
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Try not thinking about anything you learned regarding salaat, then try to look for deatials in THIS reading(quran). They are there. There is no reason that one should be looking for the traditional method, NOTHING in the reading points us in this direction.i dont look for 'details' of salat in the koran, because i will need to seek 'details' in everything ever mention in the koran, which is illogical. the absence of details is not a stronge arugment against salat.
My argument is certainly NOT absensce of details. Please pay closer attention to my argument. I am saying that this reading(quran) fully details the METHOD of salaat. I repeat, my argument IS NOT that there are no details, that is what the Rashad group would have you believe so you can swallow that 19 fitna like many of us here have done as well, including myself.
bow/prostrating linked with worship 2277
bow/prostrating linked with submission 343, 7748 (plus many others)even you can deny that GOD link bow and prostrating as symbolic gestures of worship and submission within Koran. Even in nature as well. Look how an animal submits to another, observe how creature express submission, by bowing, prostrating or crouching to the ground.
Brother, you should study the terms "ruku" and "sujood" and you will find that they are not literal. For example, there is a verse that states that when those who have faith hear the reading recited, they prostrate. Do you get on the ground whenever you hear the reading recited? Or do you gain more faith and follow the commands of the God? What would you do if you were crossing the street and heard the reading recited?
There is another verse where we are told to enter the gate prostrating, how does one do that and keep the skin on thier forehead? You have to think about these thinigs brother. Do not let those people at Submission.org guide you blindly.
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I said the MIND(nafs), not the brain which is a physical organ.i believe the soul(nafs) as a tanigble entity of "self awareness". but I understand your intrepretation as Mind.
I can only respect your understanding for yourself at this time. I think I will start a thread on that subject. I think it wil be helpful.
i agree that repitition is a great way to reforce, retain, and remember. That have nothing to do with your personal intrepretation of salat. Has a contact prayer, the science still proof vital and testfiy to the truth. You always say that 'the reading' is any reading of truth, yet you deny the truth contact prayer provide.
I didn't understand what you just wrote.
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Correctumundo! 1+1=2 I can prove, I cant even find the word "Miracle" in this reading(quran)
do you see a mathematical structure in the koran? yes or No?
I asked you a simple question, I will ask it again, do people call the armed forces the "service" or the "worship" and why?
this point is baseless. it says service, yet Bush call the war and oppucation in iraq "Operation Freedeem Iraq". SO you do you prove. 'Service' is and element of worship. But i use worship because it implies more that just 'service'. if you want me to explain, i can.
But when there ARE details already there, why are you looking for a whole other set of details? Thats what I am asking you. If the God explained how to walk for example, why would you look for another set of details on how to walk?
true. however, my argument is not 'what salat is'. You are arguing 'what salat is' to me, salat is already define before the koran and was understood as prayer. So the detail in the koran related to that. However, you are aruging 'what salat is ' and define base on the details of the Koran. what i was saying with 'walking' is if if 'walking' is already define, why are you trying your best to 'redefine' it. it is like saying, 'walk' no longer mean 'walk'
My argument is certainly NOT absensce of details. Please pay closer attention to my argument. I am saying that this reading(quran) fully details the METHOD of salaat. I repeat, my argument IS NOT that there are no details, that is what the Rashad group would have you believe so you can swallow that 19 fitna like many of us here have done as well, including myself.
you are debate two diiferent things. is it 'what salat is' or 'method of salat'?
Brother, you should study the terms "ruku" and "sujood" and you will find that they are not literal. For example, there is a verse that states that when those who have faith hear the reading recited, they prostrate. Do you get on the ground whenever you hear the reading recited? Or do you gain more faith and follow the commands of the God? What would you do if you were crossing the street and heard the reading recited?
bow and prostrate are literal. isnt walk literal. What you must understand is how to intrepret the word. Doesnt say 'they are not literal', they are. but there are other verse which uses the same words for physical prostrations.
What would you do if you were crossing the street and heard the reading recited
i have never encouter such an event. but does the verse say that we 'should protrate when we hear the koran. there is a different.
"ruku" and "sujood" are literal. however context change intrepretation not defintion.
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Peace be upon you,
do you see a mathematical structure in the koran? yes or No?
Yes, each letter is written one at a time.
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I asked you a simple question, I will ask it again, do people call the armed forces the "service" or the "worship" and why?this point is baseless. it says service, yet Bush call the war and oppucation in iraq "Operation Freedeem Iraq". SO you do you prove. 'Service' is and element of worship. But i use worship because it implies more that just 'service'. if you want me to explain, i can.
Why don't they call the armed forces the "worship"? Why the service?
true. however, my argument is not 'what salat is'. You are arguing 'what salat is' to me, salat is already define before the koran and was understood as prayer. So the detail in the koran related to that. However, you are aruging 'what salat is ' and define base on the details of the Koran. what i was saying with 'walking' is if if 'walking' is already define, why are you trying your best to 'redefine' it. it is like saying, 'walk' no longer mean 'walk'
I see, so what was "du'a" before this reading(quran) came about?
Since salaat deals with the learning process, and the God tells us that many do indeed go through a learning process but are unaware of thier process, and that there were people who lost thier salaat, how do you think you will get an accurate understanding of the word except by seeing how the God uses it?
you are debate two diiferent things. is it 'what salat is' or 'method of salat'?
Both.
bow and prostrate are literal. isnt walk literal. What you must understand is how to intrepret the word. Doesnt say 'they are not literal', they are. but there are other verse which uses the same words for physical prostrations.
Yes, let me correct my statement, ruku and sujood DOES mean literal bowing and prostrating, but in the contect of this reading, they are metaphorical. Do you have a verse that contradicts that?
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What would you do if you were crossing the street and heard the reading recited
i have never encouter such an event. but does the verse say that we 'should protrate when we hear the koran. there is a different.
It says "when it is recited", you have ears yes?
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Yes, each letter is written one at a time.
is you recogine the the koran is mathematical struture, why do you deny the 19 sign. forget the word 'miralce'. Why do you deny the mathematical 'sign' of the koran mention in the koran itself?
Why don't they call the armed forces the "worship"? Why the service?
it is simple. because 'worship' implies more than 'service'. look carefully
serve 1. transitive and intransitive verb work for somebody to work, or work for somebody
the armed force 'work' for the goverment and the nation. The police force 'work' for the civilians of the nation. They dont 'worship' their authority or the civilians, they simply work for them. GOD wants us to do more the 'work' for him, but to 'worship' him. Worshiping GOD means more than service, it implies rememberance, idolizing, gratitude etc. Because the term 'worship' posses these elements, the term 'worship' is a better translation in the context of the entire koran. 'service' is a part of worship. That is why i say it is interchange in religious context, to worship is to 'serve' as well as other elements.
wor?ship
- transitive and intransitive verb religion treat somebody or something as deity to treat somebody or something as divine and show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion
- transitive verb love somebody deeply to love, admire, or respect somebody or something greatly and perhaps excessively or unquestioningly
- intransitive verb religion take part in religious service to take part in a religious service
Since salaat deals with the learning process, and the God tells us that many do indeed go through a learning process but are unaware of thier process, and that there were people who lost thier salaat, how do you think you will get an accurate understanding of the word except by seeing how the God uses it?
I can only respect your understanding. I dont agree nor think it is possible to prove that salat is a 'learning process'. but to each his own.
It says "when it is recited", you have ears yes?
i ask if it say "SHOULD" prostrate. There is a different. why dont you just quote the verse. 1958 doesnt not give us the command to prostrate. It say what poele do, but not what they are commanded. However, verse 2277 is a commandment. "O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate, worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may succeed."
Now idolfree, i dont care how you want to intrepretate those words. to each his own.
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Peace be upon you SHM,
is you recogine the the koran is mathematical struture, why do you deny the 19 sign. forget the word 'miralce'. Why do you deny the mathematical 'sign' of the koran mention in the koran itself?
Where does it say mathematical sign? The verse where you are being taught to get this from indicates "thier number" as being a trial for the disbelievers, and by witnessing that trial, the faithful gain more faith.
it is simple. because 'worship' implies more than 'service'. look carefully
serve 1. transitive and intransitive verb work for somebody to work, or work for somebody
the armed force 'work' for the goverment and the nation. The police force 'work' for the civilians of the nation. They dont 'worship' their authority or the civilians, they simply work for them. GOD wants us to do more the 'work' for him, but to 'worship' him. Worshiping GOD means more than service, it implies rememberance, idolizing, gratitude etc. Because the term 'worship' posses these elements, the term 'worship' is a better translation in the context of the entire koran. 'service' is a part of worship. That is why i say it is interchange in religious context, to worship is to 'serve' as well as other elements.
To remember the God, to be grateful, ect IS to work for Him. You cannot find a single verse that shows any more than that. Once you realize that "The God" is not a person, then you realize that you are told the God is one to show you the WHOLE picture. We are all parts of a whole, we serve the whole. We do not "worship" it. We hold it in AWE, but we do not worship it.
The rest of your statements ended with "I don't care how you interpret it, to each his own". So I wont bother to repsond. Peace.