Help needed from experienced people !!
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If I associate with people who uphold hadith, eventually I will uphold hadith. Like for example I could end up believing the Quran has additions in it, as taught by hadith, so I follow the teachings of satans who uphold a Code based on Kabbalist Gematria, to remove ayats from the Book Allah promised to keep pure, protected, without crookedness in it - in the past and in the future. I seek refuge from Allah from being of the ignorant.
Dear Raging,
Why can't you turn the table around toward your advantage and make them "end up believing" in your values. How about the ?VICE & VIRTUE? principle? Just see verse 3110 below.
Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers.
Don?t you, as a Muslim, feel having any responsibility toward propagation of your ideology? Can you tell me how you can be an advocate of VIRTUE and a forbidder of VICE, in a peaceful manner? Do you think that, just turning away, minding your own business, is the answer to your ideological responsibilities? Or, you?re one of those who just enjoys hearing the ECHO of his own cry!
Do you think it?s a BIG deal to just make ASSOCIATION, only with those who you?re 100% in agreement with at all times? Just think about it and contemplate verses 608 & 609 below.
(٨
All?h does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, All?h loves those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that All?h forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Z?lim?n (wrong-doers those who disobey All?h).Peace,
Khalil -
Peace, Student of Allah !
I feel sorry that you have to deal with such people. I understand how hard it can be. Sometimes people just cling to what they want and run with it, and there is simply nothing that will change their mind.
I do happen to be a good debater though, it's part of what makes me "stubborn" when I believe a particular something.
So I think a little point you can use against the argument they have against you (that you are not a scholar), is to tell them the same thing back! Just say something like, "Well if what I say holds no ground because I am not a scholar, then what makes your point hold ground when you are not a scholar?".
If all goes as I think, they will say something along the lines of, "Well, I'm not a scholar, but I follow the scholar's opinion on the Quran!".
That's when you draw the parallels, and say something like, "So your belief in the Quran stands on your interpretation of the opinions of Bukhari/Muslim hadiths, and my opinion on the Quran stands on my interpretation of Allah's words. So even if we are both wrong, who do you think is closer to the truth?".
They are working with a middle-person, and you are not. Perhaps you can use this debate tactic against them.
If it simply does not get through to them, the only thing you can do is pray for their guidance, and hope Allah guides them to the truth.
May peace be with you.
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Dear Raging,
How about the ?VICE & VIRTUE? principle? See 3110 below.
Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers.
Don?t you, as a Muslim, feel having any responsibility toward propagation of your ideology? How can you be an advocate of VIRTUE and a forbidder of VICE, in a peaceful manner? Do you think that, just turning away, minding your own business, is the answer to your ideological responsibilities? Or, you?re one of those who just enjoys hearing the ECHO of his own cry!
"They think that they lay you under an obligation because they have surrendered! Say Lay me not under obligation by your submission rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful." Surah 4917
I have no obligation towards propagation. My obligation is only to remind those that fear Allah.
"Nothing of their account falls upon those that are godfearing but a reminding; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 669
"It is not for the believers to go forth totally; but why should not a party of every section of them go forth, to become learned in religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that haply they may beware?" Surah 9122
If a person chooses not to serve Allah, we are to leave them alone. Allah guides whom He wills.
Leave disbelievers alone Surah 608-9, 670, 6112, 6137, 7176, 7180, 153, 4383, 5245, 6844, 7042, 7311, 8617
"Leave alone those who take their religion for a sport and a diversion, and whom the present life has deluded. Remind hereby, lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; apart from God, it has no protector and no intercessor; though it offer any equivalent, it shall not be taken from it. Those are they who are given up to destruction for what they have earned; for them awaits a draught of boiling water and a painful chastisement, for that they were unbelievers." Surah 670
"Thus those associates of theirs have decked out fair to many idolaters to slay their children, to destroy them, and to confuse their religion for them. Had God willed, they would not have done so; so leave them to their forging." Surah 6137
"Then leave them alone to plunge and play, until they encounter that day of theirs which they are promised." Surah 4383, 7042
"Leave Me to those who cry lies, those prosperous ones, and respite them a little," Surah 7311
"You are the best nation ever brought forth to men, bidding to honour, and forbidding dishonour, and believing in God. Had the People of the Book believed, it were better for them; some of them are believers, but the most of them are ungodly." Surah 3110
Do you think it?s a BIG deal to just make ASSOCIATION, only with those who you?re 100% in agreement with at all times? Just think about it and contemplate verses 608 & 609 below.
(٨
All?h does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, All?h loves those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that All?h forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Z?lim?n (wrong-doers those who disobey All?h).You only proved you did not read my post above and jumped the gun.
Are you blind that you missed it?
Are you deaf that you couldn't hear it?Allah does not forbid you respecting people. He forbids you taking unbelievers as intimates, friends, guardians. Surah 608-9
?God forbids you not, as regards those who have not fought you in religion's cause, nor expelled you from your habitations, that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them; surely God loves the just.
God only forbids you as to those who have fought you in religion's cause, and expelled you from your habitations, and have supported in your expulsion, that you should take them for friends. And whosoever takes them for friends, those -- they are the evildoers.? Surah 608-9Those who uphold teachings Allah did not reveal are not my friends nor my intimates. I do not practice pagan Namaz; I uphold the salat taught to us by Allah in the Quran. I do not pay 2.5% of my total income once a year; I spend 1/5 of the abundance at every payday if not more, on top of the Medicare, Social Security, and Unemployment taxes that are obligatory.
What else did you miss in your haste? P Let's point out what is in bold
"that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them"
No where does it state you are to befriend them or take them as intimates.Are you saying you are only kind and act justly to the people you call your friends? We are to act kind and justly towards all until they attack us for our deen. Which the Sunnis have done to Student of Allah, calling service to Allah alone 'satanic'.
Why would I trust these people when they do not believe they will be called to account for their actions?
Why would I take these people as guardians when they fear the name 'Muslim' and want nothing but harm to afflict me?I do not call everyone I associate with 'friend'. I am careful of who I bring into my social circle of trust.
There are many people who are disbelievers who I associate with on a daily basis at my job and in my community. But none of them are people I keep in confidence, nor are they people I put my trust in. I do not take them as intimates. I only trust the believers and bring them close to me because Allah tells me they are the ones I can trust. My Friend is Allah, and He is the best Protector.
"Said he, 'Assuredly he has wronged thee in asking for thy ewe in addition to his sheep; and indeed many intermixers do injury one against the other, save those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness -- and how few they are!' And David thought that We had only tried him; therefore he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down, bowing, and he repented." Surah 3824
You want to be friends with disbelievers, go right ahead. Give Allah proof against you, give Him clear proof you are ungodly. Give Him reason to be angry with you.
Doesn't harm me in the slightest. )
Peace.
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Salam,
Looks like the whole topic shifted to something that I did not start the topic for P
Only Eikonoklastes came up with some hints as to how to tackle.
Dear Raggin-Taggin (or whatever it is), I did not interpret those verses the way you did. There is a very good reason behind it. Even if you look at us, you will find that we do not blindly obey each other's interpretations, we believe in personal effort to understand Allah's message. So that makes us interpret many verses in different ways. From that perspective alone, you become a rejector from my point of view in some cases, and I become a rejector from your point of view in some cases. No 2 human brains will always interpret the same message with 100% match. Does that mean that we all should consider each other REJECTORS and spend our lives alone ? I dont believe that.
Besides, most of them(my sunni friends) are like the ex-myself. Before Allah guided me to the truth, I assumed blindly that my scholars and parents all did not conspire against me to mislead me. These people concealed the verses of Allah from me, taking wrong advantage of my trust. We have a common ground, we worship non but Allah. They believe in the Qur'an, so my mission is to make them read the Qur'an. The problem is that their scholars do the reading and they follow the scholars. Read the example of the 2 friends that I have given in the previous post, after begging them for 2 years, they finally started reconsidering their positions and reading the scripture. Within in one year, they repented, now they are sharing the Qur'anic message with their friends and family and showing them that our "High Priests" are concealing these verses in order to make us follow their desires not the words of our Lord.
Now, if you guys dont mind, let us cut the debate short. If anyone has any advice for me, let us discuss that. We have many other threads to discuss the interpretations.
Peace be on you all
---------------------------- Student of Allah
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You only proved you did not read my post above and jumped the gun.
Are you blind that you missed it?
Are you deaf that you couldn't hear it?Highlights above are from me.
Dear Raging,
Your mentality of labeling people hastily is a bit unfair. I had read your post in its entirety. I just asked you to ?contemplate? on 608 & 609, because in 609 we are clearly forbidden to BEFRIEND the second group, but in 608, that is not the case regarding the first group. You are saying,
that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them
No where does it state you are to befriend them or take them as intimates.
Also, there is a DIFFERENCE between being FRIEND and being INTIMATE. They are not EQUAL in meaning.Anyways. Be a little bit considerate. Control your urges. Do not jump to conclusion in haste. STOP LABELING OTHERS, when they do not agree with you all the way.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace be with you,
Dear Raggin-Taggin (or whatever it is), I did not interpret those verses the way you did. There is a very good reason behind it. Even if you look at us, you will find that we do not blindly obey each other's interpretations, we believe in personal effort to understand Allah's message. So that makes us interpret many verses in different ways. From that perspective alone, you become a rejector from my point of view in some cases, and I become a rejector from your point of view in some cases. No 2 human brains will always interpret the same message with 100% match. Does that mean that we all should consider each other REJECTORS and spend our lives alone ? I dont believe that.
No worries. To you are your deeds and to me are mine. )
Besides, most of them(my sunni friends) are like the ex-myself. Before Allah guided me to the truth, I assumed blindly that my scholars and parents all did not conspire against me to mislead me. These people concealed the verses of Allah from me, taking wrong advantage of my trust. We have a common ground, we worship non but Allah. They believe in the Qur'an, so my mission is to make them read the Qur'an. The problem is that their scholars do the reading and they follow the scholars.
And after 3 years, when do you realize they have chosen their path?
Read the example of the 2 friends that I have given in the previous post, after begging them for 2 years, they finally started reconsidering their positions and reading the scripture. Within in one year, they repented, now they are sharing the Qur'anic message with their friends and family and showing them that our "High Priests" are concealing these verses in order to make us follow their desires not the words of our Lord.
"After 3 years of dialogues with 2 friends, they finally got my point, so whenever I am asked to discuss issues involving Islam, I have immediate necessity to join the discussion and not be arrogant and say that these people will never listen. But I am sick and tired of being called "satanic" and "misguided" because my arguments from Qur'an is not accepted by them due to their bias over the opinions of their scholars."
That's not how the post read, as 'by them' sounds like the 2 friends, who you just spoke about. It still sounded like they were calling you 'satanic' and 'misguided' based on your upholding the Truth. If they have come to accept the Truth and have stopped fighting you, then there is no issue. But after 2-3 years (as the timetable apparently is varied) you have to ask yourself when to fish and when to cut bait, so to speak.
We aren't guides, nor are we guardians. We are only responsible for ourselves. Our day-to-day living should be our dawah as well as our discussions. People will know us to be Muslims because of how we treat others and how we act.
Peace.
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Your mentality of labeling people hastily is a bit unfair.
No where did I say I made any assertion in haste. I even quoted the ayats from the Quran that tell us to make investigation before we make a decision. Twisting words only proves your heart. Surah 4729-30
Also, there is a DIFFERENCE between being FRIEND and being INTIMATE. They are not EQUAL in meaning.
Then why does Allah use the same word throughout the Quran to describe friends as an intimate/guardian relationship? They are equal in meaning.
"God only forbids you as to those who have fought you in religion's cause, and expelled you from your habitations, and have supported in your expulsion, that you should take them for friends (tawallawhum). And whosoever takes them for friends (yatawallahum), those -- they are the evildoers." Surah 609
Surah 4139 (awliya)
Surah 4144 (awliya)
Surah 551 (awliya) (awliyu)
Surah 557 (awliya)
Surah 670 (awliya)
Surah 6129 (nuwallī
Surah 73 (awliya)
Surah 727 (awliya)
Surah 730 (awliya)
Surah 923 (awliya)
Surah 1850 (awliya)
Surah 5814 (tawallaw)
Surah 601 (awliya)
Surah 6013 (tatawallaw)There is a difference between being a 'friend' and being an 'associate'. The former is an intimate relationship, the latter is detached, aloof.
Anyways. Be a little bit considerate. Control your urges. Do not jump to conclusion in haste. STOP LABELING OTHERS, when they do not agree with you all the way.
Stop following falsehood and you won't be a disbeliever in my eyes.
"That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Even so God strikes their similitudes for men." Surah 473
As long as you uphold the teachings of Rashad Khalifa, I keep my distance from you; we are not friends nor will I bring you into my trust. That's just the way it is. I don't want to end up following falsehood as you do.
"He has sent down upon you in the Book 'When you hear God's signs being disbelieved and made mock of, do not sit with them until they plunge into some other talk, or else you will surely be like to them.' God will gather the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in Gehenna." Surah 4140
I value the guidance Allah has shown me. I was on my way to the Fire before being guided to the Truth. That is a gift I will guard, as I am not ungrateful.
To you are your deeds, and to me are mine. )
Peace.
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Peace be with you,
No worries. To you are your deeds and to me are mine. )
And after 3 years, when do you realize they have chosen their path?
"After 3 years of dialogues with 2 friends, they finally got my point, so whenever I am asked to discuss issues involving Islam, I have immediate necessity to join the discussion and not be arrogant and say that these people will never listen. But I am sick and tired of being called "satanic" and "misguided" because my arguments from Qur'an is not accepted by them due to their bias over the opinions of their scholars."
That's not how the post read, as 'by them' sounds like the 2 friends, who you just spoke about. It still sounded like they were calling you 'satanic' and 'misguided' based on your upholding the Truth. If they have come to accept the Truth and have stopped fighting you, then there is no issue. But after 2-3 years (as the timetable apparently is varied) you have to ask yourself when to fish and when to cut bait, so to speak.
We aren't guides, nor are we guardians. We are only responsible for ourselves. Our day-to-day living should be our dawah as well as our discussions. People will know us to be Muslims because of how we treat others and how we act.
Peace.
Peace be on you Raggin-Taggin...
Hahahaha rotfl I just re-read what I wrote in my first post. It really kind of gives the impression that the same 2 friends are calling me Satanic. Lol, no, that is not the case. They took my advice seriously, when they saw my dedication, that this was not just another conspiracy theory. So they read the Qur'an and now their minds are freed (they kinda chose the red pill ) .
The later part of the post is about other people that I know, friends relatives etc. The experience that I have from dealing with those 2 specific friends, is that, it is evolutionary and helpful to follow the herd for survival. That is the reason, they didnt take my claims seriously, since it contradicted the mainstream ideology. But surely, once they started reading the Qur'an and asking Allah for guidance, they saw the truth revealed to them. So my job is to make sure that these scholars and mullahs dont blind them from the verses of Allah and never tell them that there exists a thing called the "RED PILL" . Believe me, most do not know that there is such a pill. I never knew, I was told. Since I know now, I must offer tell them, to chose from the Red and Blue Pills. If they deliberately choose to take the blue pill, non can guide them accept Allah.
PEACE
---------------- Student of Allah
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Peace be on you Raggin-Taggin...
Hahahaha rotfl I just re-read what I wrote in my first post. It really kind of gives the impression that the same 2 friends are calling me Satanic. Lol, no, that is not the case. They took my advice seriously, when they saw my dedication, that this was not just another conspiracy theory. So they read the Qur'an and now their minds are freed (they kinda chose the red pill ) .
Alhamdulillah!
The later part of the post is about other people that I know, friends relatives etc. The experience that I have from dealing with those 2 specific friends, is that, it is evolutionary and helpful to follow the herd for survival. That is the reason, they didnt take my claims seriously, since it contradicted the mainstream ideology. But surely, once they started reading the Qur'an and asking Allah for guidance, they saw the truth revealed to them. So my job is to make sure that these scholars and mullahs dont blind them from the verses of Allah and never tell them that there exists a thing called the "RED PILL" . Believe me, most do not know that there is such a pill. I never knew, I was told. Since I know now, I must offer tell them, to chose from the Red and Blue Pills. If they deliberately choose to take the blue pill, non can guide them accept Allah.
And that is where it is tough, especially with our loved ones. My own family continues to uphold teachings of the satans - Trinitarian Christianity - and deride/abuse the deen of Al-Islam. As such I have withdrawn from them. I still love them and treat them with respect, but I uphold the example of Abraham (pbuh) taught to us in the Quran
"You have had a good example in Abraham, and those with him, when they said to their people, 'We are quit of you and that you serve, apart from God. We disbelieve in you, and between us and you enmity has shown itself, and hatred for ever, until you believe in God alone - except that Abraham said unto his father, 'Certainly I shall ask pardon for thee; but I have no power to do aught for thee against God.' - 'Our Lord, in Thee we trust; to Thee we turn; to Thee is the homecoming." Surah 604
Our job is only to remind. It is up to Allah to remove the veil from their eyes, if it is to be removed. You are continuing to share the knowledge Allah gave you, all praise belongs to Him! So continue your path, and ask Allah for patience and to open your heart to peace. )
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Peace.
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highlight is from me.
Verse 2563
And the bondmen of the Compassionate are those Who Walk upon the earth meekly and when the ignorant address them, they say peace.
PEACE,
KhalilPeace.
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Salam,
Studying scriptures is one of my favorite activities for the past few years. This is what opened my eyes/ears/mind to the message of Allah, and thus made me follow only Allah's command. In this Sunni community, I often have to get in to theological and religious dialogues with many friends almost everyday. Mainly because of my objection to follow their approved method to interpret Islam. So, as you can imagine, it always ends up in a debate. I need some help from people with similar experience.
Now, the way I invite them to leave conjecture is by inviting them to study the Qur'an (atleast read it in a language that they may comprehend atleast part of it). Praise be to my teacher, the Master of the worlds that all my arguments are already revealed in the Qur'an. All I have to do is read and obey and share it with fellow Sunni muslims. However, the job is not that easy. Once I question the hadiths, a huge line of arguments are put forth from the sunni side. Once again, a mere reading of the Qur'an clears the doubt between us. But still, the sunni's keep on insisting that if I am right, all of their great scholars are wrong, everyone. So they ignore my arguments from the Qur'an based on the fact that I am not a well recognized scholar of Islam. Often times, they ask me to go debate "Dr. Zakir Naik" about these issues -\ . A few times, I was actually asked to go to all the muslim organisations and debate them.
By the way, I have shared the problems I found in Hadiths (both authority and authenticity) with them. They do not have any argument besides "you are not a recognized scholar and Arabic is not your language" brickwall . Whenever I show them Qur'anic evidences against hadiths, they simply tell me that I am not in the authoritative position to say that. They keep on telling me that I am wrong because their "experts" dont agree with me, no reason, just that their experts dont agree. brickwall
After 3 years of dialogues with 2 friends, they finally got my point, so whenever I am asked to discuss issues involving Islam, I have immediate necessity to join the discussion and not be arrogant and say that these people will never listen. But I am sick and tired of being called "satanic" and "misguided" because my arguments from Qur'an is not accepted by them due to their bias over the opinions of their scholars.
Any advice ???
------------------------- Student of Allah
Well look at it this way. When do they become Quranist one day, they will say the same thing. Easy come easy go. Its better to see people resist when presented with an alternative point of view than to see them just decide to change easily. That means they will do the same if they ever become Koranist.
Anyways most people are conformist. Look at it from their point of view.
"Is this guy trying to tell me that all those Muslims around the world are wrong and don't know the Koran but he does?" "That all those Muslims for the past 1000 years were wrong and he is right?" "That all those scholars who memorized the Koran are wrong and he is right?"
Religion many say is a top down process and not a bottom up process. That is what i like about the net, you can find people who are non conformist. Finally and more importantly, if you look at Sunni Islam, during Shafi they were a small minority. It actually takes a few determined persistent people to change history. In time people will change because they have to. One of Shafi's argument against only following the Koran was individualism and multiple interpretations. We know from this forum, Shafi was correct. In ancient times this may have been seen as a liability against the Quranist persuasion. In modern times, this is an asset.
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Well look at it this way. When do they become Quranist one day, they will say the same thing. Easy come easy go. Its better to see people resist when presented with an alternative point of view than to see them just decide to change easily. That means they will do the same if they ever become Koranist.
Anyways most people are conformist. Look at it from their point of view.
"Is this guy trying to tell me that all those Muslims around the world are wrong and don't know the Koran but he does?" "That all those Muslims for the past 1000 years were wrong and he is right?" "That all those scholars who memorized the Koran are wrong and he is right?"
Religion many say is a top down process and not a bottom up process. That is what i like about the net, you can find people who are non conformist. Finally and more importantly, if you look at Sunni Islam, during Shafi they were a small minority. It actually takes a few determined persistent people to change history. In time people will change because they have to. One of Shafi's argument against only following the Koran was individualism and multiple interpretations. We know from this forum, Shafi was correct. In ancient times this may have been seen as a liability against the Quranist persuasion. In modern times, this is an asset.
Salam,
hmm, point taken. The whole thing about these scholars and ulemas remind me of the Pharisees of the New Testament.
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
Salam,
hmm, point taken. The whole thing about these scholars and ulemas remind me of the Pharisees of the New Testament.
Peace
------------- Student of AllahThey are the same lot. One is sectarian the other ethnocentric. One shows and forces his agenda the other hides it and shapes it in a universalist garment. One gives absolute authority to the ruler the other to the community leaders. One shapes his orthodoxy as a ruling majority elite the other as an isolated and exclusive minority. Both are dual revelationist and scripture abrogationist.
http//www.houseofdavid.ca/isl_jud.htm
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Can't say that I'm experienced (yet, ISA)...but I did want to share one thing.
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
/Happy Ramadan!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi