Question for my brothers and sisters

AlboDibran

That was a very well thought out response Ilyusha, and I agree completely. That saying "the more you know to know, you find you know absolutely nothing". And yet Quranist 19er submitter, w.e they call themselves. You will see people who read on article, maybe one book, and all of a sudden they are a gramatical expert. Claiming words cant change on context. This is evident in every language. I am Albanian. And balkan languages tend to have words change depending on the context. Me personally I fear Gods retribution . I try to serve him best I can, and as you said it. Moral error is a lot more important. Moral error will lead us the wrong way. logical error occurs. But that is why God is the judge. If humans were judge, they would damn to hell any who disagreed. God has no partner no advocate. I dont understand why people wont realize this. Peace be unto you

Paradox_Uncreated

I don`think you should fear everyone having their own understanding of The Quran. Eventually that is what breaks down sectarian thinking. And discussion of these understandings eventually fuel the progession of Islam. And God guides and deludes whomever he wills. Ultimately it is for the individuals own good, that he understands the Quran. It is his own responsibility, and only his own actions, is weighted at judgement day.

Layth

Dear Albo,

I agree and disagree with what you have said, however, I believe the reality it is not as disheartening as it looks )

Firstly - as Eikon mentioned, the Internet is not a clear representation of "real life". I have sat face to face with people who have a completely different understanding on some topics (they had a metaphoric apporach), yet we had a lovely discussion, felt brotherly love, and rejoiced in the fact that "God" was the subject of our gathering and discussion - may He be glorified forever.

Secondly - different understanding on some of the issues in the Quran is natural as the Book does require study and contemplation (see 9122) and, as pointed out, even the prophet could not understand it without having all the verses complete their revelation. What is important is not that we have different opinoins on a particular topic, but that we allow each person the opportunity to present his/her understanding, and, as Muslims, we then follow the "best" of what has been said (see 391.

Thirdly - we must unite and embrace one another under the simple tenents of faith that God has shown us (One God, no idolitary, do good works) - these are the "minimum" criteria that God requires of those who submit to Him - now, if a person upholds these minimum criteria, but has an understanding of Salat or Hajj or any other concerpt that is different from the group - as long as he/she has based this understanding on the Quran alone - then we are all in agreement.

Regards,

raginggaijin

Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it.

Peace be with you,

Can you show me this ayat?

I only know we are not to ridicule anyone
"O believers, let not any people scoff at another people who may be better than they; neither let women scoff at women who may be better than themselves. And find not fault with one another, neither revile one another by nicknames. An evil name is ungodliness after belief. And whoso repents not, those -- they are the evildoers." Surah 4911

Peace.

unknownuser

Peace Albo, mire se vjen!

To quote Thomas Jefferson ?I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.?

Conformity concerns me little and find many who study Qur'an are careless and most all translations atrocious.

AlboDibran

Brother raginggaijinn, That verse sums it up. One should be mindful cause calling someone believer or disbeliever is wrong. Only Allah knows our hearts. Among the Quran alone muslims. though as you have noticed many have their own ideas. and if any of them or us. call eachother kaffir cause they dont believe our research. It is wrong. because it adds insult to injury. Because If one is better then the other who called him a non believer it only hurts his own soul. If someone turns to non besides Allah and seeks refuge in him alone and works righteousness, no one should call them kaffir. because this is an insult just the same.

Ans Seid si je? I didnt know any other Albanians existed on here lol. Salamun Alaykum

raginggaijin

Brother raginggaijinn, That verse sums it up. One should be mindful cause calling someone believer or disbeliever is wrong. Only Allah knows our hearts. Among the Quran alone muslims. though as you have noticed many have their own ideas. and if any of them or us. call eachother kaffir cause they dont believe our research. It is wrong. because it adds insult to injury. Because If one is better then the other who called him a non believer it only hurts his own soul. If someone turns to non besides Allah and seeks refuge in him alone and works righteousness, no one should call them kaffir. because this is an insult just the same.

I disagree with your interpretation.
Allah states we are not to revile others or call them names. To call someone a dbag or fg c***-*******g sunuvva ***** would be reviling, and wrong.

Yet Allah makes clear their descriptions in the Quran, even calling them by the titles you may find distasteful Disbeliever. Hypocrite. Ignorant.

"And when Moses said to his people, 'God commands you to sacrifice a cow.' They said, 'Dost thou take us in mockery?' He said, 'I take refuge with God, lest I should be one of the ignorant.'" Surah 267

"Say 'Is it other than God you bid me serve, you ignorant ones?'" Surah 3964

"And Noah said, 'My Lord, leave not upon the earth of the unbelievers even one. Surely, if Thou leavest them, they will lead Thy servants astray, and will beget none but unbelieving libertines." Surah 7126-27

"Say 'O you, the unbelievers," Surah 1091

There are many examples of the titles given to them because of the teachings they uphold. We are taught to be discerning, to make investigation, and not to take disbelievers as intimates, guardians, friends.

"O believers, when you are journeying in the path of God, be discriminating, and do not say to him who offers you a greeting, 'Thou art not a believer,' seeking the chance goods of the present life. With God are spoils abundant. So you were aforetime; but God has been gracious to you. So be discriminating; surely God is aware of the things you do." Surah 494

"O believers, when believing women come to you as emigrants, test them. God knows very well their belief. Then, if you know them to be believers, return them not to the unbelievers. They are not permitted to the unbelievers, nor are the unbelievers permitted to them. Give the unbelievers what they have expended; and there is no fault in you to marry them when you have given them their wages. Do not hold fast to the ties of unbelieving women, and ask what you have expended, and let them ask what they have expended. That is God's judgment; He judges between you; and God is All-knowing, All-wise." Surah 6010

How are you going to marry a believing wife is you don't make investigation? Take her for her word?

Allah is clear how we are to act towards those who make a mockery of His revelation. Pass by nobly, do not sit with them Surah 4140, 668, 2563, 2855

"He has sent down upon you in the Book 'When you hear God's signs being disbelieved and made mock of, do not sit with them until they plunge into some other talk, or else you will surely be like to them.' God will gather the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in Gehenna." Surah 4140

Which is why you find me leaving the group on Facebook after our conversation; there are people who uphold teachings of the ancients, teachings of sectarian satans, and Kabbalist esoteric myths. Now those people will be called to account for what they say. Allah makes this clear

"Then said a certain man, a believer of Pharaoh's folk that kept hidden his belief, 'What, will you slay a man because he says, "My Lord is God," yet he has brought you the clear signs from your Lord? If he is a liar, his lying is upon his own head; but if he is truthful, somewhat of that he promises you will smite you. Surely God guides not him who is prodigal and a liar." Surah 4028

I won't be asked what they did or believed. I am only responsible for myself.

Out of all the people on that discussion group, how many study the Quran in the morning or evening?
Out of all the people on that discussion group, how many spend out of what Allah provides them at every harvest (which is every payday for many in America)?
Those are criterion for discerning believers, as taught in the Quran. (Ayats given below.)

?Your friend is only God, and His Messenger, and the believers who perform the prayer and pay the alms, and bow them down.
Whoso makes God his friend, and His Messenger, and the believers -- the party of God, they are the victors.? Surah 555-56

?And the believers, the men and the women, are friends one of the other; they bid to honour, and forbid dishonour; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and they obey God and His Messenger. Those -- upon them God will have mercy; God is All-mighty, All-wise.? Surah 971

Those who uphold teachings Allah did not reveal are not my friends nor my intimates.
I do not practice pagan Namaz; I uphold the salat taught to us by Allah in the Quran.
I do not pay 2.5% of my total income once a year. I spend 1/5 of the abundance at every payday if not more, on top of the Medicare, Social Security, and Unemployment taxes that are obligatory.

Allah knows how each person will end up. But Allah has given all nations the Quran so we may judge by what He has sent down.

"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105

These are my beliefs based on the Quran. I'm not saying you have to believe as I do. On the contrary, I'm telling you to not believe me and to check everything that I say to make sure I'm not full of garbage.

I'm telling you to study the Quran and ask Allah to explain it.

Peace.

AlboDibran

I am of like opinion as far as my research. I just dislike that these people exempt themselves from everything than have the nerve to call me a kaffir, because I dont believe as them. I try to be as humble as I can and ignore it. But long as the ummah has this mentality of negativity, I dont see Muslims uniting at all. Peace be upon you brother

Student_of_Allah

I am of like opinion as far as my research. I just dislike that these people exempt themselves from everything than have the nerve to call me a kaffir, because I dont believe as them. I try to be as humble as I can and ignore it. But long as the ummah has this mentality of negativity, I dont see Muslims uniting at all. Peace be upon you brother

Salam,

I would ask you not to take it literally. But to take it as a "relative" term. When your model of the universe does not match with my model of the universe, we end up calling each other rejectors. We fail to realize that all knowledge does not belong to us, so we may be wrong. The arrogance in us gets unleashed. Which leads to further name callings and personal attacks. I have been called ingrate, hypocrite etc for not seeing numbers here and there. Unfortunately , this is the model of "wisdom" for some people, and this is how they define "beautiful preaching". As for me, whenever I see 2 conflicting models of theology, instead of name calling and personal attacks, I choose to abide by the following(remember that the term rejecter here is relative, not absolute)

1091 Say O rejecters,
1092 I do not serve what you serve,
1093 Nor do you serve what I serve,
1094 Nor will I serve what you serve,
1095 Nor will you serve what I serve,
1096 To you is your system, and to me is mine.

Having said that , I pray that Allah increases you in knowledge and wisdom and always guides you to the straight path.

Peace be with you, may Allah be pleased with you

---------------------------------------------------- Student of Allah

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Quote from AlboDibran on Yesterday at 034713 PM

Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it.

Peace be with you,

Can you show me this ayat?

I only know we are not to ridicule anyone
"O believers, let not any people scoff at another people who may be better than they; neither let women scoff at women who may be better than themselves. And find not fault with one another, neither revile one another by nicknames. An evil name is ungodliness after belief. And whoso repents not, those -- they are the evildoers." Surah 4911

Peace.

Gladly.

494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace You are not a believer! You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

/Happy Ramadan!

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

BornAgain

Salaam,

First of all, I will have to agree with Brother Eikonoklastes, as per his statement

Perhaps it's a bit of a false representation on the Internet since when we discuss things like religion, we usually talk about the differences we have rather than the similarities. I often feel that if we were all in a room together in real life, we'd have a lot more in common than we can imagine. We simply do not have the time to explore these similarities as much online because of the nature of the Internet (especially forums).

Internet forum is mostly an academic ground where people discuss, and debate on certain things. Religion or belief systems, is a very tricky issue because not two people will have exactly the same views on every single aspect. I have to add that once you meet these people in real life, you will find how much you are similar and how strong connection you have with each other. I have been fortunate enough to meet with a number of Brothers and Sisters from Free Minds, and I can personally tell you that, well, differences don?t matter anymore and we ?connect? straight away (at least, that is what I feel anyway). It is amazing that when you collectively believe in Qur?aan only/monotheism, you do feel that strong ?friendship? regardless of what your age, backgrounds, or level of education/knowledge.

Back to your opinion, does it really matter whether or not we believe exactly the same way? The way someone perceives something is shaped by their environment and experience. Hence, they will have their own unique interpretation on the Scriptures. I cannot fault someone else?s interpretation because I acknowledge that my knowledge is flawed, and that only God has the absolute knowledge. ?Unity? that you speak of, is not realized by appearing or believing the same way. It is collectively moving towards the same destination (God) despite the differences. My analogy is, when a group of us is moving towards ?x?, it does not really matter if one rides a car, a horse, or if one walks or runs.

I personally will not mind us being our own ?messenger?. After all, no messenger is currently present, and we have to exercise the next best thing that God has bestowed mankind in understanding the Qur?aan ? our minds. If my belief alienates me, then that?s fine. I?d rather follow what I believe what is right, than being superficially ?united? with unsettling question within. Why, I must ask, do you desire that ?unity? based on having identical views on every single thing ? is it because you actually want to feel closer to God, or you want to silence your insecurity? Is it because you feel, that the Truth comes in numbers? After all, if more people believe the same way like you do, there will be no way you can be wrong, right?

I have to add that there are many of use respect differences and will not resort to labeling/calling each other kaffir just because the others have different views on Islam.

It seems most Quran alone muslims, even hadithers, are just plain internet muslims. They seem to think arguing semantics and grammar scores them brownie points with Allah. And it is getting pathetic.

It seems righteousness, charity, are at the bottom of the to do list. And being a Quran expert at the top.

Alright, I have the responsibility to defend others here. Your analysis, as quoted above, is flawed because you only witness on what takes place on virtual realm. Do you even know what they do in their lives? Do you even attempt to get to know any of them personally, to understand their beliefs, their dreams and their ambitions? I daresay you don?t. Your judgment is made based on the text exchanges here in Free Minds, which is mostly academic. I don?t think anyone will be douche-y enough to constantly talk about the righteous deeds that they do every single day.

Anyway, that?s all I can say. Feel free to drop me a line if you want to discuss further. Salaam.

Ilyusha

Firstly - as Eikon mentioned, the Internet is not a clear representation of "real life". I have sat face to face with people who have a completely different understanding on some topics (they had a metaphoric apporach), yet we had a lovely discussion, felt brotherly love, and rejoiced in the fact that "God" was the subject of our gathering and discussion - may He be glorified forever.

Dear Layth, Internet can be more real than the real life. Because, here people are less afraid to speak what they actually carry in their minds, and do not need to be hypocritical and have a layer of brotherly niceness coated on them for protecting their image as in face to face. That's what we are usually concerned in real life above anything else, that is why people are forced to follow the moral protocols. Internet is their bunker, here they can be themselves. Here no one can see them and question the character of their person, so people's real selves are projected.... all the hatred, bitterness, intolerance, embedded in their minds finds a very easy channel to flow, they are not afraid that their personality will be exposed to the accusations of bigotry, they can put aside all concerns and be what they really are and what they wish to be. Here what you see is not what you may get, but what that exists, that is the point. I don't say this about the people you sat with, but in general about many of us. It maybe a pessimist's opinion, but it is a posteriori. Sorry for the rant.

Peace.

Wakas

Whilst I can understand the sentiment, a few points...

this forum is open to anyone to join and post - this means we will get a mix of opinion on many issues, some quality posts, some poor quality posts.

Quran covers many, perhaps all, aspects of life which means it contains a huge number of topics - in such a thing, you will inevitably get a huge range of view

a forum is a place for exchange of views/information primarily - not some sort of utopia

In real life, and thus on this forum, it is very rare for people to regularly broadcast their charitable deeds, so do not expect that here either.

moderators/admin do not read all posts - shock! - thus rely on members to report posts, very few actually do. Its a bit like complaining the police never do anything about the crime in your street when you never report such incidents to them, even if you see or know of these crimes.

I have been a member a long time, and it is a fact that the majority of discussions are done in a reasonable/respectful manner.

raginggaijin

Greetings and Peace, all group

Quote from AlboDibran on Yesterday at 034713 PM

Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it.

494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace You are not a believer! You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.

Show me where Allah says calling a person 'kafir' is a great offense. That does not say anything about a great offense.

"O believers, when you are journeying in the path of God, be discriminating, and do not say to him who offers to you peace, 'Thou art not a believer,' seeking the chance goods of the present life. With God are spoils abundant. So you were aforetime; but God has been gracious to you. So be discriminating; surely God is aware of the things you do." Surah 494

"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha darabtum fee sabeeli Allahi fatabayyanoo wala taqooloo liman alqa ilaykumu alssalama lasta mu/minan tabtaghoona AAarada alhayati alddunya faAAinda Allahi maghanimu katheeratun kathalika kuntum min qablu famanna Allahu AAalaykum fatabayyanoo inna Allaha kana bima taAAmaloona khabeeran"

Allah is clear we are not to aggress against those who act peacefully against us in seeking the frail goods of this life.

"God forbids you not, as regards those who have not fought you in religion's cause, nor expelled you from your habitations, that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them; surely God loves the just.
God only forbids you as to those who have fought you in religion's cause, and expelled you from your habitations, and have supported in your expulsion, that you should take them for friends. And whosoever takes them for friends, those -- they are the evildoers." Surah 608-9

Thou shall not murder nor be the aggressor Surah 608-9, 2190-193, 429-30, 492-94, 532

"And fight in the way of God with those; who fight with you, but aggress not God loves not the aggressors." Surah 2190

As the example of the Prophets (pbut) show, we are to be discerning. The words and the actions of a person will show if they are believer, disbeliever, hypocrite, and/or ignorant.

Allah explains the Quran.

Peace.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Beg pardon if this is going off topic.

@raginggaijin

You are correct ) in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense. It is completely contrary to the Guidance located in AQ, to call a person "kafir" though. I understand that you are saying that ALLAH does not say a thing and I agree with you. handshake It is wicked to attribute to ALLAH what ALLAH has not stated. This being said, muslims should call other people neither "kafir" nor any other impolite word--as you already acknowledged in a previous post. It is not my intent to be condescending to you nor to any other. The purpose of this post is to, ISA, show any interested parties why even though calling others "kafir" is not called a great offense we should not do it.

If "kafir" is said as ridicule, then per AQ 4911 the ridiculer is deemed a transgressor. If said with arrogance or insolence, then AQ 3118 states that GOD does not love the person acting with arrogance and/or insolence. Is it good manners to call others names? Is "kafir" a word of kindness, or a word of mockery? Is it a good thing to be called...or an insulting label? I would not like to be called a "kafir"...how would <reader> feel to be called one? hmm

If a muslim has to say something other than what is polite, the muslim should return the same greeting (AQ 486) or say what is said in AQ 2952--but only if it can be said without arrogance, without insolence, and in such a way that it allows the muslim to depart in a good manner.

4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.

3118 And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For GOD does not love the arrogant show off.

7310 And be patient over what they say, and depart from them in a good manner.

2952 Say "GOD is enough as a witness between me and you. He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. As for those who believe in falsehood and reject GOD, they are the losers."

Per AQ 494 (and portions of AQ quoted above and below) if a person greets you in peace, you should not call them a "kafir" or otherwise respond disrespectfully. It doesn't matter if the person is a believer or not--if they are polite, a muslim should return politeness--the bare minimum is to "give as good as you get" and return the same greeting. A muslim should strive towards politeness in all situations. GOD alone is Judge. For a person to attempt to judge another's faith ~seems~ like shirk, in that it ~seems~ that the would-be-judge attempts to do what is GOD's exclusively. Even in the case of deniers, we are told to disregard them without being rude (AQ 4389) and leave GOD to deal with them (AQ 7311).

4389 So disregard them and say Peace. For they will come to know.

7311 And leave Me to deal with the deniers who have been given the good things, and give them time for a while.

787 And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until GOD judges between us. He is the best of judges.

6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?
6839 Or do you have an oath from Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that you can judge as you please?

6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.

486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. GOD is Reckoning over all things.

16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.

3159 It was a mercy from GOD that you were soft towards them; had you been harsh and mean hearted, they would have dispersed from you; so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the matter; but when you are convinced, then put your trust in GOD; for GOD loves those who put their trust.

4134 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.

1322 And those who are patient seeking the face of their Lord; and they hold the contact prayer, and they spend from what We have bestowed upon them secretly and openly, and they counter evil with good; these will have an excellent abode.

1426 And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has nowhere to settle.

2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say Peace.

6108 And do not insult those who call on other than GOD, lest they insult GOD out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.

608 God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

Muslims should be discerning. We should also strive for politeness. In matters of judgement, we should follow the Guidance of ALLAH contained in AQ and not rush to judge others. We should be careful of our alliances, and of who our intimate friends are.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers, to have Mercy on us, and Forgive us for our transgressions.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

raginggaijin

@raginggaijin

You are correct ) in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense.

If Allah does not say it, why do you?

It is completely contrary to the Guidance located in AQ, to call a person "kafir" though.

I would like to take this opportunity to point you back to the Quran

"Say 'O you, the unbelievers (Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroona),
I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion!'" Surah 1091-6

"Nothing else they said but, 'Lord, forgive us our sins, and that we exceeded in our affair, and make firm our feet, and help us against the people (alqawmi) of the unbelievers (alkafireena).'" Surah 3147

Not only does Allah reveal that we are to call people 'disbeliever', but calling to Allah reflects this as well.

"God charges no soul save to its capacity; standing to its account is what it has earned, and against its account what it has merited. Our Lord, take us not to task if we forget, or make mistake. Our Lord; charge us not with a load such as Thou didst lay upon those before us. Our Lord, do Thou not burden us beyond what we have the strength to bear. And pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; Thou art our Protector. And help us against the people of the unbelievers (alkafireena)." Surah 2286

Proof is given. )

I understand that you are saying that ALLAH does not say a thing and I agree with you. handshake It is wicked to attribute to ALLAH what ALLAH has not stated.

Allah is Guide, Oft-Forgiving, Merciful.
Insha'Allah, we will continue to turn to Him and ask Him to guide us to a right better than this.

This being said, muslims should call other people neither "kafir" nor any other impolite word--as you already acknowledged in a previous post.

It is not an impolite word. Allah would not command the title to be said if it was impolite or improper.
Just as Moses (pbuh) asked Allah for refuge from being among the ignorant. Surah 267
Just as Noah (pbuh) asked Allah to increase the wicked in nothing but destruction. Surah 7128
Just as Muhammad (pbuh) was told by Allah to tell the hypocrites of the destruction that awaits them. Surah 4138
Just as Allah commands us to speak penetrating words to them about themselves.

"Those -- God knows what is in their hearts; so turn away from them, and admonish them, and say to them penetrating words about themselves." Surah 463

"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou stern with them; their refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!" Surah 973

It is not my intent to be condescending to you nor to any other. The purpose of this post is to, ISA, show any interested parties why even though calling others "kafir" is not called a great offense we should not do it.

When the disbelievers are made known to us by Allah, then we are to avoid them and pass by nobly. Allah will deal with them in due time.

But when these disbelievers - kafir - come to me and profess belief, telling me I am not a Muslim because I do not follow their associate gods found in Sahih Bukhari, Appendices of Rashad Khalifa or Edip Yuksel, histories written by men and women who proclaim disbelief in the deen of Al-Islam, or their own hadith that intermixes teachings of the polytheists and esoterics I point to them the clear proofs found in the Quran and speak to them stern, penetrating words. Then I bid them 'Peace' and cease association with them.

So while you bring up valid points in how we are to treat people who do not attack us for our beliefs, those who do attack because we serve Allah alone had best bring proof as to why they believe what they believe, or keep silent. It's wiser.
I am not a craven man that I seek to soothe ruffled feathers when the Truth is presented. The Truth will set you free. But first, it's going to make you very angry.
I know who my friends are as Allah gives description as well. And Allah is Friend to the believers. He is the best Protector.

I have been called a 'disbeliever' and 'kafir' numerous times by Islamists, Code-19 Submitters, Quranists, and Christians, among others. I'm not concerned with what they think. I am concerned with what Allah knows, and what I am upholding - my beliefs and my deeds to prove my beliefs. That not only includes upholding salat but most of all doing good deeds and spending out of what Allah provides.
Good deeds are spoken of more often in the Quran than prayer.

"Those who believe, and have not confounded their belief with evildoing -- to them belongs the true security; they are rightly guided." Surah 682

So make investigation, test those who come to you seeking ties of friendship and marriage, and see if they truly uphold the Truth from Allah. No where are we taught to aggress, we are only allowed to defend. So be kind, judge with equity, be forgiving and patient. Then when they are made known to you, act accordingly. If they are believers, keep them close. If they are disbelievers, bid them 'Peace' and limit interaction with them or you will become like them.

But as shown, those who uphold teachings of disbelief are called disbelievers by Allah and by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), among other Prophets (pbut) found in the Quran.

"But those who disbelieve, and die disbelieving -- upon them shall rest the curse of God and the angels, and of Nasi altogether," Surah 2161

Peace.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

My comments in quote box are red.

If Allah does not say it, why do you?

Did I? Where?

I would like to take this opportunity to point you back to the Quran

"Say 'O you, the unbelievers (Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroona),
I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion!'" Surah 1091-6

Who was Commanded to say that?

"Nothing else they said but, 'Lord, forgive us our sins, and that we exceeded in our affair, and make firm our feet, and help us against the people (alqawmi) of the unbelievers (alkafireena).'" Surah 3147

ALLAH knows who the unbelievers are, and to ALLAH the people asked for help against all unbelievers. The unbelievers were not spoken to here, the unbelievers were spoken of.

Not only does Allah reveal that we are to call people 'disbeliever', but calling to Allah reflects this as well.

Where does ALLAH reveal that we are to call a person a disbeliever? Talking to does not equal talking of; I could talk about a dead person but couldn't talk to them. There is a vast difference.

It is not always the best course of action to call a person according to their attributes. If one were to call every illegitimately-born person we meet a bastard to their face, it would be true--but it would also be offensive, and what good would come of it? Another example is of a morbidly obese person. Which is more compatible with the Guidance of ALLAH for a muslim to say "Peace" or to say "You really are very fat" to such a person. Isn't a muslim supposed to say the better word/do the better thing? There is nothing wrong with using tact.

"God charges no soul save to its capacity; standing to its account is what it has earned, and against its account what it has merited. Our Lord, take us not to task if we forget, or make mistake. Our Lord; charge us not with a load such as Thou didst lay upon those before us. Our Lord, do Thou not burden us beyond what we have the strength to bear. And pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; Thou art our Protector. And help us against the people of the unbelievers (alkafireena)." Surah 2286

Proof is given.

Again, unbelievers are spoken of, not to. This proof is not compelling.

Allah is Guide, Oft-Forgiving, Merciful.
Insha'Allah, we will continue to turn to Him and ask Him to guide us to a right better than this.

It is not an impolite word. Allah would not command the title to be said if it was impolite or improper.
Just as Moses (pbuh) asked Allah for refuge from being among the ignorant. Surah 267
Just as Noah (pbuh) asked Allah to increase the wicked in nothing but destruction. Surah 7128
Just as Muhammad (pbuh) was told by Allah to tell the hypocrites of the destruction that awaits them. Surah 4138
Just as Allah commands us to speak penetrating words to them about themselves.

In none of the above cases were the prophets (pbut) Commanded to call people these words. Calling someone ignorant, wicked, hypocritical, or an unbeliever is impolite; none of these words are words of kindness. A person called these words is likely to be insulted; ergo, the words are insults--even if the charges are completely true. What is the expected outcome of an insult? An insult will never serve to invite another to a belief, plus we aren't supposed to cherry pick ayahs. We are supposed to comply with ALL Guidance. Examples are posted at the bottom of this message.

"Those -- God knows what is in their hearts; so turn away from them, and admonish them, and say to them penetrating words about themselves." Surah 463

"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou stern with them; their refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!" Surah 973

Who was Commanded to be stern with unbelievers and hypocrites? Why aren't all believers or all submitters Commanded to do this? Penetrating words are not harsh words--they are clear words that are intended to be persuasive.

When the disbelievers are made known to us by Allah, then we are to avoid them and pass by nobly. Allah will deal with them in due time.

I agree, if and only if they are set in their ways. Otherwise, it is good to invite them to monotheism.

But when these disbelievers - kafir - come to me and profess belief, telling me I am not a Muslim because I do not follow their associate gods found in Sahih Bukhari, Appendices of Rashad Khalifa or Edip Yuksel, histories written by men and women who proclaim disbelief in the deen of Al-Islam, or their own hadith that intermixes teachings of the polytheists and esoterics I point to them the clear proofs found in the Quran and speak to them stern, penetrating words. Then I bid them 'Peace' and cease association with them.

So while you bring up valid points in how we are to treat people who do not attack us for our beliefs, those who do attack because we serve Allah alone had best bring proof as to why they believe what they believe, or keep silent. It's wiser.
I am not a craven man that I seek to soothe ruffled feathers when the Truth is presented. The Truth will set you free. But first, it's going to make you very angry.
I know who my friends are as Allah gives description as well. And Allah is Friend to the believers. He is the best Protector.

Truth supports itself just fine without anger. Anger imperils logical thought and prevents civil discourse.

I have been called a 'disbeliever' and 'kafir' numerous times by Islamists, Code-19 Submitters, Quranists, and Christians, among others. I'm not concerned with what they think. I am concerned with what Allah knows, and what I am upholding - my beliefs and my deeds to prove my beliefs. That not only includes upholding salat but most of all doing good deeds and spending out of what Allah provides.
Good deeds are spoken of more often in the Quran than prayer.

When you were called a disbeliever and "kafir", were you insulted?

"Those who believe, and have not confounded their belief with evildoing -- to them belongs the true security; they are rightly guided." Surah 682

So make investigation, test those who come to you seeking ties of friendship and marriage, and see if they truly uphold the Truth from Allah. No where are we taught to aggress, we are only allowed to defend. So be kind, judge with equity, be forgiving and patient. Then when they are made known to you, act accordingly. If they are believers, keep them close. If they are disbelievers, bid them 'Peace' and limit interaction with them or you will become like them.

4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.

Unless physically attacked, we should use neither offensive actions nor offensive words--and all Judgement should be left to ALLAH. Personally, I like to use the "ignore" button to tone out the bombast of certain persons.

But as shown, those who uphold teachings of disbelief are called disbelievers by Allah and by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), among other Prophets (pbut) found in the Quran.

"But those who disbelieve, and die disbelieving -- upon them shall rest the curse of God and the angels, and of Nasi altogether," Surah 2161

Disbelievers exist, but nowhere are we (ordinary muslims) commanded to address them as such.

Peace.

4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.

All believers are addressed, not only prophets (pbut)!