3:7 A MATTER OF PUNCTUATION MARKS. WHICH IS CORRECT?
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
I have a problem with what you are saying. And when I say twisting words, I mean playing fast and loose with your own definitions. Being like a slippery fish meaning that you change the definitions of your terms to suit whatever point you make.
I do not see where I am changing definitions, I am sorry tat I am not making this clear enough for you. With patience, I think we can arrive at an agreeable point. Lets continue.
You have not given a coherent definition of al-kitaab. First, I thought your definition was straightforward... it was simply the book of our recorded actions. Each person will have an individual book of actions.
No, more than that, al kitaab is EVERYTHING there is. Think about this, books are created from "words". All of creation comes from the God's word "BE" and it becomes. So everythiing you look at is from a word "Be". So the entire universe is but a collection of "words", will you agree to this basic point? And what is a collection of words but a writing/book? We can look at the word Universe and see the same understanding. UNI=One, Verse=word, therefore we have ONE-WORD. "BE" and it becomes. Please be patient with what I am saying and think about it. Even the word PERSO, comes from the meaning of PER=through, and SONA = sound, therefore PERSONA= Through SOUND.
"BE" and it becomes.
THAT, is an ENTIRELY separate thing from the physical world which you also call al-kitaab
I hope I have corrected the confusion above.
. Firstly, this definition of KITAAB is absolutely unwarranted and bizarre. WHY on earth would the physical universe be called kitaab? Sure, the things that play out in the physical universe can relate to and enter into our books of actions, BUT the universe itself cannot be called kitaab!
As shown above, ALL THINGS come from the word "BE". Everything is a collection of words. To take it further, everything is SOUND, which comes from vibration, and EVERYTHING is in a state of vibration.
Firstly, the Arabic TOTALLY does not warrant that meaning... and the Quran was revealed in Arabic for a reason, and the Arabic language has been preserved for a reason.
Kitaab means book/writing. I think I have shown sufficient evidence above. Please let me know your opinion.
Since I've said it twice and you didn't understand, let me make it crystal clear
Definition of al-kitaab according to you
Book of each individuals accumulated actions
vs.
The physical universeThese are two, totally separate, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE items. For you to mix the two seamlessly just shows your mentality.
My brother, why do you feel it necessary to attack my mentality? Please excersice some patience. I wish nothing but peace for the seekers of knowledge.
I feel like the only thing left to do is shake my hands at you... these 2 things are NOT the same.
Please take the FEELINGS out of this, that will always cause a problem.
The physical universe and a human beings LIFE in the universe are NOT the same, they are 2 distinct things.
Humans are made from the earth, we contain iron, zinc,magnesium, etc. How can you say we are NOT part of the WHOLE?
SEPARATELY indentifiable, SEPARATE characteristics, SEPARATE ends. The physical world will END, our book of life is what is used to judge us. 2 TOTALLY separate COMPLETELY different things.
Our physical bodies will end also, then we will be returned to the ONE MIND which we came from.
Yet you apparently effortlessly matter-of-factly blend the 2 seamlessly. I've heard a lot of interesting philosophical views in my time, and this is one of the most bizarre I have to say.
So i'll leave it at that for now... I won't even comment (I guess I already am) on your faulty translation of la RAIBA FIHI. We cannot advance in the discussion unless we get over this hump.
I hope I have given my position more clarity. Please let me know if you still disagree.
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
Brother, please have patience and see 21104 where the folding of the universe is described as the folding of "books" (plural).
Excellent verse brother! Thanks for the clarification.
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Salams br idolfree,
Thanks for replying. You know, looking through our discussion I think we may be approaching a standstill. I think part of the problem is that you are pretty happy with what you believe, and I am merely presenting arguments against it. In my experience, that's never worked, ever, in convincing anyone of anything. You have to balance that by presenting an alternative, and we've gotten so engrossed that I haven't really given much indication of how I view Islam and the message. I'll try to do that as much as I can.
Anyway, you didn't really clarify anything you said in the past. You merely restated it, in almost the exact same wording. You also ignored some points I made which I think you should have responded to rather than just restating yourself.
No, more than that, al kitaab is EVERYTHING there is.
Do you have any Quranic evidence to back up the idea that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab? That we are kitaabs and that we will get a kitaab by living in a kitaab?? You would think the Quran would spell out clearly such a dramatic philosophy.
UNI=One, Verse=word, therefore we have ONE-WORD. "BE" and it becomes.
Saying this more than once does not make it more valid. Basing views of the universe on word games with the English word universe is a little... odd don't you think? The construction of English words should hardly be a resource for the philosophical positions of a Muslim.
So the entire universe is but a collection of "words", will you agree to this basic point?
No, actually I won't. Words are things that are used by human beings as verbal symbols, allowing us to conveniently communicate ideas. Words are TOOLS to be used by us, nothing more. Words are symbols. Symbols mean NOTHING by themselves, it is what they symbolize that has meaning.
Humans are made from the earth, we contain iron, zinc,magnesium, etc. How can you say we are NOT part of the WHOLE?
You miss the point. Humans are mostly made of water, i.e. water leads to our genesis. But we ALSO are totally distinct in character to the ocean, which is also made of water. Just because 2 things are made of water, does not mean they are the same or INDISTINGUISHABLE or ONE or PART OF THE WHOLE. Just the same way, we have been created by elements of this universe, but the universe is still distinct from us.
A human being and his actions are a TOTALLY different thing than the physical universe that is at his disposal. I repeat
If a human being builds a house, he is not the house and the house is not him!
So anyway, enough of that. I am sure you will disagree and have plenty of responses consisting mostly of repeating what you said before. But, I think I should at least say some words of what I believe.
Firstly, there is a BIG distinction between this physical universe and "Allah's world," or the afterlife. It is NOT a mental universe as you once put it since no human being can imagine it. It is totally beyond space-time restrictions of any kind. Allah through his Divine powers created the universe by saying KUN (now does this LITERALLY mean he has a mouth and a voice and SAID the Arabic word KUN??? of course not). The point is that Allah only has to order something and it happens. BUT once creation was started (i.e. big bang) then space-time was created and the laws of physics take hold as we know it and everything unfolds according to a model (333. Humans are then created as well. Everything in the physical world is bound by unchanging laws, and SO is the human social world. Just like in science how we learn things by trial and error, so too in the human social world we could go on trying to learn the human laws by trial and error. But Allah saved us the trouble and misery by granting us GUIDANCE in the form of the Quran. That is why the declaration of 22 is so important (and why it is RIGHT after the opening declaration) ----
Here is the book within which is no doubt, a guidance for those who wish to save themselves from life's perils.
wassalam
(I'll take the time here to explain that LA RAIBA FIHI refers to kitaab, NOT to huda as you implied. In your "translation" you would separate the sentence this way thaalikal kitaabu la raib / feehi hudallil mutaqeen. This is totally incorrect grammar as ANYONE with any experience in Arabic knows. It's so blatant that its almost a waste of my time to explain because it shows the person hasn't taken the time to learn simple Arabic. But I'll just say, that to say thaalikal kitaabu la raib, is an incomplete sentence and totally grammatically incorrect. The sentence only makes sense if you ADD fihi to the first part. That's the beauty of the Arabic language... there's no hanging participles like in English, and no doubt how to interpret it.)
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salam marie,
You do not hold absolute science to draw a similar conclusion?
I'm not sure what you mean. I'll just explain what I meant. Mainstream scientists today pretty much uniformly agree that scientific understanding can extend up to the point of singularity (big bang) but cannot extend right to the bang and DEFINITELY not before the big bang. That is because science itself is based upon a model of the universe, and the universe itself ceases to exist at singularity.
Incredible!
Was you with the God when He creates the universe?
Do you claim that you hold 100% true meaning of "BE and IT IS""?Well the Quran IS our guidance, and the Quran IS the basis for Islamic philosophy my dear. I am a human and can make mistakes, but the Quran is clear. If you differ from my understanding, don't be childish and say "Were you with Allah." Just give your understanding of that verse. It will be clear to those with knowledge which interpretation is closer to the truth.
am disappointed of your reaction, you continue to judge this book before to read it because the authors speaks about time, they are not stupid.
I didn't mean to judge the book, I said I wish I had the luxury to read it. But I said my views are different based on an understanding of the Quran and mainstream science. Believe me, there are many scientists out there yearning to write books to make a quick buck. Maybe this book is more than that, but to claim that they can mathematically describe singularity or even what was BEFORE, is ludicrous (in my opinion), especially since human beings are so FINITE that it is impossible to even IMAGINE something infinite or infinitely small. We can approximate, but never grasp the true meaning of these concepts.
Anyway, it's an interesting point.
wassalam
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Peace brother shuaib,
I was a little surprised when yu said this
And Allah as well says that he merely said BE, and it was. He did not use preexisting elements to form this universe. He just said BE.
I think ""BE and it becomes/is/was" is more complicated than we could imagines it.
You also can say it and you will not obtain nothing lol
Peace
Marie
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Peace shuaib ,all
Salams all,
br zlatan, we will await your response.. if it takes time, it must be worth it.
What you say is generally true...The God wiling it would also be the case with this comment of mine...
I guess many of us have a lot of other obligations in life beside this forum..i dont understand where do you people find the time to read and particularly to write all this stuff !?
In regards of me, if i am writing one or two detail posts or analysis today, i need at least a half of a day to do it as it should be done... .
I feel most of the participants are somehow too rushhy jumping from the topic to topic and from one understanding to other without actually taking time for deep pondering, detaily analysis and without checking translations thoroughly, and particularly, without checking all the stuff in the light of the book as a whole...meanings of the verses are highly mutualy dependaple....
If you dont mind, before my response, it would be good that you first provide your translation which i asked you a few days ago....as i have already said your understanding is based on a subjective interpretation rather than upon any translation of the verse? even in the case that it contains some truth all of its claims can not be correct and/or can not be placed under the single umbrella as you did it...
But to witness this you first must coin/provide the translation on which it is based .....i repeat, imo, you wont be able to offer any translation from which all this meanings could be extricated without subjective additions and overinterpretation-not based on the text or actualy wording of the translation?
anyway thanks for a nice discussion
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Thanks for replying.
No need to thank me brother D We are debating (not arguing) so I must reply D
You know, looking through our discussion I think we may be approaching a standstill. I think part of the problem is that you are pretty happy with what you believe, and I am merely presenting arguments against it. In my experience, that's never worked, ever, in convincing anyone of anything. You have to balance that by presenting an alternative, and we've gotten so engrossed that I haven't really given much indication of how I view Islam and the message. I'll try to do that as much as I can.
If I see an argument that is sufficient, I guarantee you that I will change my understanding.
Anyway, you didn't really clarify anything you said in the past. You merely restated it, in almost the exact same wording. You also ignored some points I made which I think you should have responded to rather than just restating yourself.
I have answered as best I could, I will try to continue to be as clear as possible.
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No, more than that, al kitaab is EVERYTHING there is.Do you have any Quranic evidence to back up the idea that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab? That we are kitaabs and that we will get a kitaab by living in a kitaab?? You would think the Quran would spell out clearly such a dramatic philosophy.
From the verses already presnted to you, do you disagree that Al kitaab is not the same as al quraan? We need to settle this first, so lets go point by point.
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UNI=One, Verse=word, therefore we have ONE-WORD. "BE" and it becomes.Saying this more than once does not make it more valid. Basing views of the universe on word games with the English word universe is a little... odd don't you think? The construction of English words should hardly be a resource for the philosophical positions of a Muslim.
I will respect that for this discussion, but since this message deals with humanity, you should hold on to that information for future use, it gives big clues as to what the men who coined those terms was trying to get across.
However, "BE" and it is is part of this reading(quraan) , so I hope you address that point.
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So the entire universe is but a collection of "words", will you agree to this basic point?No, actually I won't. Words are things that are used by human beings as verbal symbols, allowing us to conveniently communicate ideas. Words are TOOLS to be used by us, nothing more. Words are symbols. Symbols mean NOTHING by themselves, it is what they symbolize that has meaning.
Sound comes from vibration, will you agree that EVERYTHING in this universe "vibrates"? Yes or no.
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Humans are made from the earth, we contain iron, zinc,magnesium, etc. How can you say we are NOT part of the WHOLE?You miss the point. Humans are mostly made of water, i.e. water leads to our genesis. But we ALSO are totally distinct in character to the ocean, which is also made of water. Just because 2 things are made of water, does not mean they are the same or INDISTINGUISHABLE or ONE or PART OF THE WHOLE. Just the same way, we have been created by elements of this universe, but the universe is still distinct from us.
Water is made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons. Can you find me one part of creation that is not made from the very same materials?
A human being and his actions are a TOTALLY different thing than the physical universe that is at his disposal. I repeat
If a human being builds a house, he is not the house and the house is not him!
But they are BOTH made from protons, electrons, and nuetrons.
So anyway, enough of that. I am sure you will disagree and have plenty of responses consisting mostly of repeating what you said before. But, I think I should at least say some words of what I believe.
I have given a different answer above, but lets continue.
Firstly, there is a BIG distinction between this physical universe and "Allah's world," or the afterlife. It is NOT a mental universe as you once put it since no human being can imagine it
That does not make sense. I cannot imagine what you will be dreaming of tomorrow night, but that does not take away from the fact that your dreams take place in the mental world, does it?
It is totally beyond space-time restrictions of any kind. Allah through his Divine powers created the universe by saying KUN (now does this LITERALLY mean he has a mouth and a voice and SAID the Arabic word KUN??? of course not).
I agree, but the SYMBOLISM gets MEANING (as you stated above) when we find out that ALL THINGS VIBRATE, thus create sound.
The point is that Allah only has to order something and it happens. BUT once creation was started (i.e. big bang) then space-time was created and the laws of physics take hold as we know it and everything unfolds according to a model (333. Humans are then created as well. Everything in the physical world is bound by unchanging laws, and SO is the human social world. Just like in science how we learn things by trial and error, so too in the human social world we could go on trying to learn the human laws by trial and error. But Allah saved us the trouble and misery by granting us GUIDANCE in the form of the Quran. That is why the declaration of 22 is so important (and why it is RIGHT after the opening declaration) ----
Here is the book within which is no doubt, a guidance for those who wish to save themselves from life's perils.
Thank you for sharing your understanding.
(I'll take the time here to explain that LA RAIBA FIHI refers to kitaab, NOT to huda as you implied. In your "translation" you would separate the sentence this way thaalikal kitaabu la raib / feehi hudallil mutaqeen. This is totally incorrect grammar as ANYONE with any experience in Arabic knows. It's so blatant that its almost a waste of my time to explain because it shows the person hasn't taken the time to learn simple Arabic. But I'll just say, that to say thaalikal kitaabu la raib, is an incomplete sentence and totally grammatically incorrect. The sentence only makes sense if you ADD fihi to the first part. That's the beauty of the Arabic language... there's no hanging participles like in English, and no doubt how to interpret it.)
I also agree that there is guidance, without doubt, in al Kitaab. Is that not what you are saying?
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Peace be upon you Zlatan,
I guess many of us have a lot of other obligations in life beside this forum..i dont understand where do you people find the time to read and particularly to write all this stuff !?
I have a very easy job with a lot of down time, so I have no problem writing while at work (or at my comptuer at home), and I read the reading when I get up and before I go to sleep ( I try to make it dawn and dusk),and I study during the night and I ponder with all of my free day time because I want the proper understanding VERY MUCH.
Although I do recognize what you are saying, but it is not easy to know another persons situation, so it isbest just to stick to the debates and not question anothers time restrictions.
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Salam zlatan,
i did not know you still wanted that "translation." I will provide it as soon as i can.
Salam idolfree,
Do you have any Quranic evidence to back up the idea that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab? That we are kitaabs and that we will get a kitaab by living in a kitaab??
You would think the Quran would spell out clearly such a dramatic philosophy. From the verses already presnted to you, do you disagree that Al kitaab is not the same as al quraan? We need to settle this first, so lets go point by point.Bro, you can clearly see I was asking for something totally different. I dont disagree that the Quran is al-kitaab. But I do disagree that the universe is referred to in the Quran as al-kitaab. Or, as you put it, that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab.
However, "BE" and it is is part of this reading(quraan) , so I hope you address that point.
Not be, KUN. Arabic holds more depth than English. There's nothing to address since I think it is straightforward. Your inclusion of it in the argument makes little sense to me. Be, a word, the universe one word, all is kitaab. There's no logic there as far as I am concerned... only word games.
Sound comes from vibration, will you agree that EVERYTHING in this universe "vibrates"? Yes or no.
Yes sound is formed by vibration of airwaves and everything vibrates unless at absolute zero. How is that even relevant to the conversation??
Water is made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons. Can you find me one part of creation that is not made from the very same materials?
Bro, you are just proving my point. I was saying, in your words, that humans are made of the same building blocks as the ocean, yet we are not oceans and oceans are not us! We are VASTLY different things! We have free will, the oceans don't... the oceans will end, but humans will continue.
Firstly, there is a BIG distinction between this physical universe and "Allah's world," or the afterlife. It is NOT a mental universe as you once put it since no human being can imagine it.
That does not make sense. I cannot imagine what you will be dreaming of tomorrow night, but that does not take away from the fact that your dreams take place in the mental world, does it?Who is talking about dreams?? Are you saying Allah is a dream? That jannah and jahannam are dreams??
I agree, but the SYMBOLISM gets MEANING (as you stated above) when we find out that ALL THINGS VIBRATE, thus create sound.
Again, I fail to see how this is even relevant. Symbolism gets meaning by what it refers to. INCLUDING sign language, INCLUDING languages like binary code and mathematics. Symbols have meaning based on what they REFER to, not by THEMSELVES. Words are SYMBOLS that have meaning based on what they refer to. Sometimes the SAME word has different meanings based on context. And words that are different can have the same meaning! Words themselves are only TOOLS.
I also agree that there is guidance, without doubt, in al Kitaab. Is that not what you are saying?
Oh boy. Now you have ALREADY changed your previous words and changed your interpretation. Both of which are completely gramatically incorrect. No offense, but you dont seem to be very conscious of GRAMMAR. There are rules to language you know.
I am saying something totally different. I am saying here is a book WITHIN WHICH is no doubt.... a guidance for muttaqeen. NOT, here is a book / no doubt a guidance for muttaqeen and also NOT here is a book / no doubt / a guidance for muttaqeen. There Arabic would be COMPLETELY GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT in the latter 2 versions. That is why I said Arabic is clear, unlike English there are no dangling participles. Do you even know what a dangling participle is? (If you did then my meaning should have been clear)
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Please tell me what he allegory of (21104) says to you.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Please tell me what the allegory of (21104) says to you.
Just want to see if we are on the "same page" wink
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Salam idolfree,
Well I was thinking about your question and it hit me like a ton of bricks, we are not on the same page.
Just out of curiosity, from my above statement... were you worried about my health? I mean come on, being hit directly by a TON of bricks.. sounds frightening doesn't it? Out of nowhere too!
But of course, you weren't worried because you knew that was a similitude to explain a point, a phrase. These are very common in languages, metaphors, similes, etc.
21104 The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one a promise We have undertaken truly shall We fulfil it.
The verse merely is describing the day that "the sky will fall." The day that this universe will end, and obviously if this universe ends that includes the skies/heavens. The skies/heavens were put there by unrolling (i.e. big bang) and will end perhaps by a big crunch or something like that.
Allah HAPPENS to use the simile of how an open scroll is rolled closed, that is how the sky will end.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuaib,
I agree that the verse in question is a similitude.
NOW, the big question is, WHY do you think that a SCROLL was chosen for the similitude?
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Salam idolfree,
I already explained it above bro. Didn't you read my reply??
........ (i'm giving you time to go back and re-read my post)
find it yet? need help? here you go
Allah HAPPENS to use the simile of how an open scroll is rolled closed, that is how the sky will end.
The skies/heavens were put there by unrolling (i.e. big bang) and will end perhaps by a big crunch or something like that.
The simile of rolling up a scroll is used because we humans KNOW what it means to roll up a scroll. We have seen that, we understand the idea. Now, if Allah instead had said the universe would collapse under its gravity until it reached singularity or something like that, since none of us has seen it, it is harder to conceive, especially back in earlier times when they did not have a grasp of physics. But Allah swt describes it effectively, that the skies which humans see as indomitable, will also fall.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
I have no choice but to respect your understanding, but if that is all you get from the similitude of a SCROLL, then there is more pondering for you to do. The God could have used anything to just say "rolled up", but He chose something that is used for WRITING.
Everything is vibrating, therefore everything creates sound (WORD). There is more to this, but I would like to stop here because this is leading us no where and to me, it is a very simple connection. I will leave you with this one page article regarding "vibration".
http//www.mystic-mouse.co.uk/Wisdom_Texts/Mystic_Visions/Vibrations-1.htm
May peace be upon yo respected brother Shuiab.
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Salam Idolfree,
Well I respect that. I checked out the link though, it seems heavily under Hindu influence, but there are some shreds of truth there. Whatever your view of the universe, one just has to make sure that he is living his life according to the principles of the Quran. If he does, then he will be successful in this life and the next, and if not, he will fail in both. Just be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking this universe is just in your mind or everything is a dream etc. As far as the scroll, you should also be careful about reading too much into a simple simile. Scrolls are also made of paper, does that mean the sky is made of paper? The only thing the verse can be referring to is how a scroll is rolled up, the action of rolling up a scroll... and that's exactly the words the verse uses, nothing more.
As far as writing is concerned, we already know and agree that everything that happens is written down/recorded. But that does not turn the universe into a kitaab. Just because I write a kitab about animals, does not turn the animals into kitaabs. I would merely have written a record, and the animals would still be animals.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you brother Shuiab,
Well I respect that. I checked out the link though, it seems heavily under Hindu influence
All of these "religions" have interconecting concepts, they are all corruptions of the ONE TRUE MESSAGE. I see the influence of that article in Hiduism, Budhism, Islam, Christainity, Judaism, and several African religions.
but there are some shreds of truth there.
Exactly, for the above stated reason.
Whatever your view of the universe, one just has to make sure that he is living his life according to the principles of the Quran
Yes, we all must live according to the God's truthful message, but that message is not limited to the 114 chapters of this book called "quran".
If he does, then he will be successful in this life and the next, and if not, he will fail in both. Just be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking this universe is just in your mind or everything is a dream etc.
Thank you for the reminder. I always try to keep my balance. The God says it this way;
(2877) "And wish/desire in what The God gave you, the home/house (of) the end (other life), and do not forget your share/fortune in the present world...
Although we keep our balance in both worlds (seen and unseen), we keep in mind that the order of operations is from the UNSEEN world into the seen world. The God tells us like his, He does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier minds. So we are to be focused on the inner world where the CAUSES are, not on the outer world where we get the effects.
As far as the scroll, you should also be careful about reading too much into a simple simile
I do not view it as simple, but very informative.
Scrolls are also made of paper, does that mean the sky is made of paper? The only thing the verse can be referring to is how a scroll is rolled up, the action of rolling up a scroll... and that's exactly the words the verse uses, nothing more.
well, my job is not to convince you, only to deliver the clear message. I wil just say again that the God could have used anyting to describe something being rolled up, but He chose something that is used for writing. When you compare that to the rest of the information that I have given you, you must admit that this is very plausible, if not, I respect your understanding.
As far as writing is concerned, we already know and agree that everything that happens is written down/recorded. But that does not turn the universe into a kitaab. Just because I write a kitab about animals, does not turn the animals into kitaabs. I would merely have written a record, and the animals would still be animals.
Yes, but you are a human servant,the writer I am talking about is the God, would you comapare your writing to His? Or your speech to His?
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salam idolfree,
Yes, but you are a human servant,the writer I am talking about is the God, would you comapare your writing to His? Or your speech to His?
Yes I am a human servant and nothing comparable to Allah. But, I am trying to get a basic idea across. Just because a book is written about something, does not turn that thing into a book. Take for example the Quran's description of hell. Since hell is described in the Quran is hell also a book? And heaven also is a book? Also Allah has written about himself in the Quran, is He (astaghfirullah) a book now? Of course not. Writing about something does not in any way suggest that the thing you are writing about is/was/or will become a kitaab. Just because Allah has everything in this universe recorded, does not mean it itself becomes a book or can be referred to as a book. There is really no reasoning or scripture to justify this. The only way you have used scripture to justify it is by using you "preconceived notion" that you already believe, and making the ayah conform to your preconceived notion.
Anyway, I've also given you the interpretation of 22, and explained why kitaab ONLY refers to the Quran there. The universe has never been referred to as kitaab in the Quran or in the Arabic language (under the root kataba).
Yes, we all must live according to the God's truthful message, but that message is not limited to the 114 chapters of this book called "quran".
I will leave you with a simple analogy. Imagine you are extremely hungry and tired. On your left, is a tray of food and drink which you know is 100% good for you and will restore your health, and it is a complete tray with nothing missing. On your right, is a tray of food and drink, some of which seems spoiled but other parts seem fine and delicious... you also know that some of the food on the right may be poisoned, but some of it is not.
Which tray will you eat from?
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Yes I am a human servant and nothing comparable to Allah. But, I am trying to get a basic idea across. Just because a book is written about something, does not turn that thing into a book. Take for example the Quran's description of hell. Since hell is described in the Quran is hell also a book? And heaven also is a book?
Brother, you are running to far ahead. The allegorical terms "garden" and "fire" are of the UNSEEN WORLD, we are discussing the SEEN world. I want you to think about a book, what is the process that it goes through in becoming a book. First a thought, then that thought must be brought into the physical world. The physical world is the same, it moves from the unseen to the seen.
Also Allah has written about himself in the Quran, is He (astaghfirullah) a book now? Of course not. Writing about something does not in any way suggest that the thing you are writing about is/was/or will become a kitaab.
Did I say that writing about something makes it a book? But when the God says "be" and it is to ALL CREATED THINGS, that means ALL CREATED THINGS are a collection of words. This is what a book/scroll is, a collection of words.
Just because Allah has everything in this universe recorded, does not mean it itself becomes a book or can be referred to as a book.
The God Himself gives the similitude of a scroll.
There is really no reasoning or scripture to justify this. The only way you have used scripture to justify it is by using you "preconceived notion" that you already believe, and making the ayah conform to your preconceived notion.
I am sorry you feel that way.
Anyway, I've also given you the interpretation of 22, and explained why kitaab ONLY refers to the Quran there. The universe has never been referred to as kitaab in the Quran or in the Arabic language (under the root kataba).
Thats unacceptable and I proved it incorrect with another verse, but it is your understanding, so I respect your ability to make choices for your own self.
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Yes, we all must live according to the God's truthful message, but that message is not limited to the 114 chapters of this book called "quran".I will leave you with a simple analogy.
What is it about today that everyone wants to give me an analogy?
Imagine you are extremely hungry and tired. On your left, is a tray of food and drink which you know is 100% good for you and will restore your health, and it is a complete tray with nothing missing. On your right, is a tray of food and drink, some of which seems spoiled but other parts seem fine and delicious... you also know that some of the food on the right may be poisoned, but some of it is not.
Which tray will you eat from?
The same tray any sane person would eat from, the one that was GOOD.
(1630) To the righteous (when) it is said, 'What is it that your Lord has revealed?' they say, 'All that is good.' ...
The answer was not "the book called Koran", it was ALL THAT IS GOOD!
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salam br idolfree,
well so much for ending the discussion huh? ) haha well i dont blame you or me since it is interesting. heck i'm gonna miss you if we stop discussing.
anyway, about the analogy I gave, my point that I was trying to say was that indeed Allah did reveal truth to other people through time, probably every civilization and people.. but the problem is that it was not preserved and it was distorted. So we cannot use any of those teachings as our primary sources of knowledge, only the Quran. Now once we have established our Quranic views, THEN we can look at outside sources to see what pieces of knowledge they may have. No one disagrees with that... but like in this case, I dont think I would take description of vibrational universe from a hindu philosopher and apply that to Islam... i would do the reverse, i.e. FIRST get an understanding of the universe in the islamic viewpoint then look at his teaching.
Did I say that writing about something makes it a book? But when the God says "be" and it is to ALL CREATED THINGS, that means ALL CREATED THINGS are a collection of words. This is what a book/scroll is, a collection of words.
Didn't He create heaven and hell? And the angels? By the way, you cant just say it so directly.. there is no direct conclusion that since something is created therefore it is a collection of words. There is nothing that gives us that rule. Not logic, nor the Quran.
Thats unacceptable and I proved it incorrect with another verse, but it is your understanding, so I respect your ability to make choices for your own self.
Actually bro I proved the meaning of 22 GRAMMATICALLY. As far as the other verse, as I explained, it is just a description of how the heavens will end like the rolling of a scroll. There is no contradiction in this interpretation. In your interpretation, we are forced to accept a grammatically incorrect statement in 22, AND there is no corroborrating evidence to support your proposed meaning of 21104. AND there is no lexicographal support to your proposed meanings.
AND, where this discussion all began was that you claimed that al-kitaab does not even mean al-quraan. Quick question, does kitaab EVER refer to Quran? If it does in some places refer to Quran, then who are you to tell where it refers to quran and where it refers to something else, when the meanings are totally understandable actually MORE understable by keeping kitaab meaning quran.
wassalam