is islam the ultimate form of communism
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Having lived in/experienced some communist societies, the ideologies and way of life seems like an artificial form of islam without God - that role being taken on by the leadership of that society. Everyone helps everyone towards a common goal with high levels of intellect in the general population and of course everyone getting the same ....... everything! ie no poor as everyone is the same, highly efficient production capabilities, harmony within ...... at least that is what it is supposed to be in theory - And this is where my question lies as the Quran asks mankind to pretty much do the same things ie Zakat, peaceful co existence etc (**albeit Allaah asking us to do this by choice and not force as in Commie type countries) Any ideas on this ...... and thank you for reading this.
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Having lived in/experienced some communist societies, the ideologies and way of life seems like an artificial form of islam without God - that role being taken on by the leadership of that society. Everyone helps everyone towards a common goal with high levels of intellect in the general population and of course everyone getting the same ....... everything! ie no poor as everyone is the same, highly efficient production capabilities, harmony within ...... at least that is what it is supposed to be in theory - And this is where my question lies as the Quran asks mankind to pretty much do the same things ie Zakat, peaceful co existence etc (**albeit Allaah asking us to do this by choice and not force as in Commie type countries) Any ideas on this ...... and thank you for reading this.
Communism
Is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.Quran (And also gospel, bible etc..) doesn't condemned 'private property', all of those books recognizes 'private property' and also 'wage labour'.. (payment of work being done) It oppose the ideas'everyone should get the same of everything'.. it endorse 'reward and punishment' system.. infact the conception of heaven and hell itself is a kind of 'reward and punishment'.. And it does said that 'everyone will be compensated accordingly'.. (as thus not treated equally)
In reality absolute communism is an utopia, a conception which cannot exist as it defy against basic homo sapiens characteristics..
Some jokes on communism which were quite popular among (ex) communist countries..
Q Dear Radio Yerevan, what is Capitalism?
A Dear Audience, Capitalism is the worst system ever, given in Capitalism man exploits man, in Communism it's the opposite.Q Dear Radio Yerevan, is it true that in true Communist system we don't need any money?
A Dear Audience, yes it is true.. however you shall have none either..Q Dear Radio Yerevan, is it true that in Communist system everyone shall have equal rights?
A Dear Audience, yes it is true, however only member of the communist party have the right to travel abroad and only those within the higher ranks of the communist party have the right to own 'dachas'.Salam / Peace
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I agree with this however as homo sapiens we have proven that we are pretty destructive. Now Islam asks that you use your brain to come to a reasonable compromise. If we were to eliminate poverty via communism, and alter it enough to accomodate more freedom (ie social) then the reward would benefit mankind to a higher extent. The way it is now is not exactly working for everyone. Once we eliminate stupid wars and hunger, then we will have more time to either improve the self or go in the opposite direction. Either way you go, you pay the price with your soul but at least as far as mankind goes, we are no longer living in the dark ages so we should not have these 'simple' problems. Instead we can focus our attention on more meaningful things like building a future for the good of mankind (helping your neighbour/brother) = everyone contributes and the reward is more for your soul as well as this world (mankind) ...... but in a controlled and consistent manner. Anyway just a thought.....and thank you for your insight.
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Well, money is actually a very useful way of keeping track of who worked how hard. The problem is with interest/inflation/outside forces trying to influence free trade, they create a hole in the economy that has to be filled up.
What the quran promotes is freely balanced distribution of money/goods. So money should flow from rich to poor until they meet in the middle and hence there is no rich, there is no poor. Like water fills up the dry cracked ground and hits the dryest with the most, that's how money should flow. Unlike capitalism which is really another form of slavery as is communism. Islam is no ism, it is the way of nature.
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Well, money is actually a very useful way of keeping track of who worked how hard. The problem is with interest/inflation/outside forces trying to influence free trade, they create a hole in the economy that has to be filled up.
Whatever the form (gold, silver, paper, seashell, pearl, feather, numbers in a database), Money is just a 'token'.. money had no real value..
Money had a 'real value' if and only if; they were exchanged between two parties and as part of those exchange there's also a 'value' being created.In a robbery case for example; the money were exchanged yet there's no real value being created.
While exchanging money with grain or paying the gardener his wage, there's a value being created.Inflation and Deflation is not a problem; it is a part of 'balancing force' which shows 'people valuation of money'.. when there's too much money circulated then there will be inflation while when there are too few money circulated then there will be deflation.
This is due to the basic human characteristics of 'appreciation for something which is rare'...What the quran promotes is freely balanced distribution of money/goods. So money should flow from rich to poor until they meet in the middle and hence there is no rich, there is no poor. Like water fills up the dry cracked ground and hits the dryest with the most, that's how money should flow. Unlike capitalism which is really another form of slavery as is communism. Islam is no ism, it is the way of nature.
The elimination of 'rich and poor gap' was one of the objective of Communism.
While allowing everyone to be richer.. was one of the objective of Capitalism. in a sense..Some do it by 'the elimination of the riches'.. (e.g. USSR, Cambodia, North Korea, Maoist China)
And others do it by 'the elimination of the poor'. (very rare, the only case that I'm aware of happened once in Wallachia, the myth of Vlad Tepez where he eliminates poverty by killing the poor)
And others do it by 'making the poor richer' (e.g. UK, France, USA, Deng Xiapoing's China, Japan etc..) while not disallowing rich people to become richer as well..'Income equality' is a utopia.. there will always be people considered as 'poor' and 'rich'.
Because poor and rich are relative... somebody who makes $1 Million a month can be considered poor if everybody else within his society are making at least $100 Million a month...What people strive now is to make 'life better for everyone'.. instead of measuring it with 'income or money' (which can be biased since it had no real value and merely a token) they measure it with other instruments such as.. nutrition fulfillment, housing needs, education, literacy level, health / life expectancy etc..
In real life there are no countries today which practiced 'pure Capitalism and/or Communism'..... China, Russia's economic system now is clearly generally capitalism.. while USA and other countries who provides 'social welfare program' and others 'non profit enterprises / organizations' are not 'pure capitalism'.
Salam / Peace
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Salaam everyone,
Islam is NOT the ultimate form of communism. Not only does it allow private property and gives us detailed rules regarding inheritance, it also seems to promote free market and liberalism. It is based on the freedom of thought, "no compulsion is there in religion" as it is stated in the Koran. It also promotes free market and forbids regulated prices by the state.
The Muslims have conquered most of the ancient world within only a century, mostly because they had lower taxes from the Eastern Roman Empire and therefore became popular among the populations. When they conquered Syria, as explains Philip Hitti in his "History of the Arabs", people throw flowers to their feet.
Even though it is most often believed that modern capitalism originated from the medieval Italian cities, Muslims were the first ones to invent cheques (al-s?q in Arabic) you could issue in today's Iraq and cash in today's Morocco.
The Prophet Muhammad, may God bless him, was a merchant, as well as his wife Khadija. Initially, they were quite well off, but when Muhammad started preaching monotheism, the Meccan authorities expelled him from the city, thinking that the new religion would be detrimental to their business. She has spent all of her money to feed the first Muslims who had nowhere to go; Mohammed said later on that "Islam survived thanks to Khadija's money
There is even a fatwa of the Al Azhar University of Cairo stating that "there is no Communism in Islam" (l? shuy?'iyyata f? al-isl?m). Muslims are equal in rights before God, but by no means are they supposed to be equally rich. Allah gives sustenance (al-rizq) to whom He desires and poverty is one of His tests to check the strength of our faith.
Finally, Islam doesn't propose a new economic system - it wasn't revealed to regulate our whole lives but to give us a spiritual and moral framework on which we should build our lives and judge by ourselves whether we should act in a particular way. The Koran is not an economy book, but is certainly DOES NOT PROMOTE COMMUNISM or state ownership in any form. Those who wish to devaluate currencies in order to pay back the public spending merely transfer the debt on the next generations. How un-Islamic.
Best regards & salaams,
Natashamina
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By the way, the person who said that the Arabs are the worst hypocrites hasn't translated the Koran conveniently. Al-A'r?b is translated "the bedouins". You don't make comments on the Koran unless you speak the Arabic language properly.
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Salaam everyone
Correct me if I?m wrong (and I have been thinking about this for a while) but isn?t communism way up the wall to be compared to islam? Communism in its utopia form has no way around being discriminatory/oppressive. It must be, otherwise it wouldn?t work.
Socialism however...........Communism and socialism is not the same despite popular opinion. I find (living in a socialist country) myself connecting the dots between islam and socialism on many levels.
So no to communism and yes to socialism being very similar to Islam.
QWhat would happen if the Sahara desert were to be communist?
A Shortage of sandQHow do you double the value of your Trabant?
AFill it up with gas -
Salam to all,
The point of socialism is to have the government ownership of industries and a state ruled economy. I don't recall seeing any Koranic evidence that Islam promotes these.
Of course, helping the poor is a noble cause, but it can allways be done by charities or churches, instead of public sector.
I come from a socialist country that ended up in economic crisis, because the state doesn't know how to run companies - which is not its purpose anyway. We started borrowing the money from every country on earth in order to pay wages and the government started printing banknotes to pay back debts. This led to 600.000% hyperinflation, whereas you'd get your monthly salary which would be worthless within half an hour. Such a phenomenon had already happened, in Germany during the thirties, which brought nazism to power. My own country ended up in civil war in which 200.000 people were killed, and after the civil war it split into seven new micro states.
Since the fall of the Berlin wall, socialism doesn't exist anymore and the only economic system left is the free market economy. And as soon as the ex-socialist economies left the old system, they recovered from underdevelopment.
Best regards to all,
Natashamina
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Salaam Natashima
Please see my previous comment, socialism and communism is not the same. If I were to generalize a little you could say communism is an extreme form of socialism. Socialism promotes individual success, whereas in communism the individual is not recognized.
Communism From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
Socialism From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds.Socialism is very much alive, but I do agree with you that the government are not supposed to run companies. But companies should not set the rules like they do in pure capitalistic countries. No, the people (government) should make sure the money makers do not step on and oppress the workers and those in need of care. This I believe is clearly stated in the Quran as well.
A few similarities between socialism and islam
Freedom of speech
Freedom of religion
Freedom of choice
Equal rights regardless of race, colour
Equality between sexes
Biggest responsibility of society is the individuals in the society.I know you and I have different experiences with regards to the success of socialism. You come from a country where financial mistakes (in the name of socialism) led to war. I come from a country where socialism kept us from becoming a puppet state to America. During the cold war we were literally wedged between capitalism and communism. We demonstrated on the streets against capitalism, but the military guns were pointed towards the east.
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Salaam dear Emil,
Thanks for your post. The freedom of speech, religion and individual success are also what I stand for. If you add political freedom, freedom of entrepreneurship, free market and less government action, you get liberalism.
Islam has the power to moralize capitalism, so we should use the excellent framework it offers us to change the societies in which we live.
Best regards,
Natashamina
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bravo how to increase the value of the Trabant = wait a few decades and sell it to a museum hmm - First of all let me say that I love the Quran and my family lives by it ..... inside out. The issue I am having is that mankind, from what I have seen in a Capitalist vs Communist/Socialist society is vastly different. There is no free market to speak of in Capitalism from what I have seen, so I think that this is the 'utopia' that is being attributed to Communism/Socialism. Agreed that the objectives are/were not achieved in either systems but I think that there was more advancement in Communism/Socialism. From what I have seen, the rich in Capitalism make the poor suffer way more than otherwise (more commercialized prostitution, child abuse, debt slavery, extreme slavery to the point where 'fair' slavery is considered by that society as a high rank!!??? I mean wtf, I went on a few trips to the States and people seem to be more poor, malnutrition, waaay less educated/enlightened etc than I have seen in 3rd world countries!!) It is like a whole nation of sheep farmed to buy and kept just healthy enough to keep buying and arrogant/proud of it to boot. Anyway, I understand that freedom is necessary but that it should not have too high a price. So i must agree that socialism is closer to Islam rather the fabricated jail they call capitalism - just my opinion which may be flawed as it was based on the limited knowledge I have.
fftopic I am new to this site but there seem to be many Muslims from communist/socialist backgrounds - is this because of the above arguement that you gravitated to Islam???
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Dear e30sequel
I think the reason why the 'utopia' is more clear to see in a communist/socialist community rather than a capitalistic is because communism/socialism is a economic AND political system while capitalism is an economic system only. In a community with a capitalistic system you can basically have all kinds of political models ranging from full democracy to full dictatorship (well not really, but you get the point).
So, like America where capitalists are in power of the political agenda...well, things go wrong....eventually. If the Soviet Union is extreme left then the US is its counterpart, none are to strive for IMO. There are however many countries who has found a "balance", Singapore is a good example of a capitalistic country with free market but with a socialistic mindset (ironic because preaching communistic views in S?pore will get your a#s thrown in jail)..... But to answer your question
I am new to this site but there seem to be many Muslims from communist/socialist backgrounds - is this because of the above arguement that you gravitated to Islam???
No, but being raised a "socialist" certainly makes me read the Quran differently than a "capitalist". IMHO I think a socialist is more likely to to group islam.
Islam has the power to moralize capitalism, so we should use the excellent framework it offers us to change the societies in which we live.
Excellent phrase bravo
http//verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/129169053672915750.jpg
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Right now I understand it that the Quran encourages Libertarianism. People shouldn't be forced to give charity and help those less in need, or else it wouldn't be a blessing for us when we do it out of the kindness of our hearts. When islamic states form, the citizens will choose to live in that state will pay taxes that go to the welfare of their citizens, so there will be a sort of socialism, but in the big picture they have the freedon to leave. There's nothing I've found in the Quran that discourages personal property and morally regulated captilism free trade etc.
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By the way, the person who said that the Arabs are the worst hypocrites hasn't translated the Koran conveniently. Al-A'r?b is translated "the bedouins". You don't make comments on the Koran unless you speak the Arabic language properly.
Wake up.. it has been discussed million of times..
It said what it said, it is written as it is written.. Al Arabu ashadu Kufran wa Nifaqa.. It doesn't say Al-Bedouins.. or "Al- Baddawi" it says Al Arabu..
It might not go well with 'personal taste' or 'specific agenda' of some people here...(such as you) but it is what it is..Salam / Peace
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The Muslims have conquered most of the ancient world within only a century, mostly because they had lower taxes from the Eastern Roman Empire and therefore became popular among the populations. When they conquered Syria, as explains Philip Hitti in his "History of the Arabs", people throw flowers to their feet.
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"Islam" or "Muslim" is not a political entity... the Quran told stories relating moslems of the past which encompass many culture and tongue, starting from Noah, the sumerian Abraham, The jewish Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus and many other 'unnamed' figures.
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The sarachens (Alliance of arabs, jews,egyptians and others within levant and its dessert surrounding) manage to do a massive invasion around the mediteranean area, which was hardly 'most of the ancient world'. The notions of 'moslems' conquered most of the ancient world sounds like a (political) propaganda to me.
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The history of the arabs were mostly written by the arabs. And specifically written to meet their taste. Just like any other history it contains many suspicious and strange stories.. the same feeling that I got when I'm reading any other 'propaganda materials'.. (i.e. The tibetans cheerfully welcomed the chinese red army upon 'liberation' from their capitalist rulers, that is according to the history as written by the chinese government and just recently we also read on how 'the iraqis cheerfully welcomed US troops for their liberation against tyrant' and destroyed the statue of Saddam Hussein...)
Even though it is most often believed that modern capitalism originated from the medieval Italian cities, Muslims were the first ones to invent cheques (al-s?q in Arabic) you could issue in today's Iraq and cash in today's Morocco.
The practice of 'free economy' was the basic fundamental and the most archaic form of economy ever known to human kind. You have wheat? Let's trade that with my sheep! no government involvement whatsoever, no intermediaries and we pay no taxes to anyone for this transaction..
As thus it was not the europeans who 'invented capitalism' and/or 'free economy'.. yet it was the europeans who first discuss the practices and came up with a 'new name' (capitalism) for such archaic phenomenon due to the presence of 'heavy involvement and taxation on economic activities by the monarchic rulers' which was common in Europe during that era.
Checks or 'deeds writing' have nothing to do with 'capitalism'.. and by the way; the chinese invented Fiat Money / Token for trading / exchange purposes using paper, many centuries before the 'the arabs'.. which is understandable since paper and ink were invented by them too...
Salam / Peace
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By the way socialist or capitalist doesn't matter.. it just a theoretical conception which overtly abused by politicians.. especially during the cold war era..
Deng Xiaoping said it best
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
-- on the debate whether China's economy are going toward socialist-communism or capitalism direction.And we're now witnessing how China has risen to be one of the superpower in the world stage..
Salam / Peace
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By the way socialist or capitalist doesn't matter.. it just a theoretical conception which overtly abused by politicians.. especially during the cold war era..
Deng Xiaoping said it best
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
-- on the debate whether China's economy are going toward socialist-communism or capitalism direction.And we're now witnessing how China has risen to be one of the superpower in the world stage..
Salam / Peace
Salaam Jafar
With all due respect
I do not agree with you when you communism=socialism. The principal is the same but communists want to enforce their ideals with armed conflict and up-rising of the worker. Socialism wants dialouge.
In communism there are contradictions; the state runs and controls everything, this is in conflict with the founders of communism which saw the state as an enemy and wanted to abolish it. In socialism the private market is allowed to exist.Communism versus socialism kind of makes me think of......hmmm.........Mohammedanians versus Quran Alone
I am not a socialist, capitalist or communist. All I know is that in my job I have seen many countries, and I have not been in the front, living in fancy hotels and all that stuff. I have been in the basement and worked with the people who are the bottom of the ladder. All I can tell you is that in those countries where socialism has had a large influence, the people at the bottom are the most healthy.
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Salam all,
- Charity is not obligatory in the ideology of capitalism, the poor are left to fend for themselves.
- The Qur'an in spirit, seems to oppose the type of hyper-accumulation of capital that is encouraged under capitalism.
- There is no l'aissez faire in Islam, the poor are explicitly to be provided for. (If I am not mistaken)
- Capitalism endorses the outright ownership of what is rightfully the property of Allah, i.e. unused lands and resources to the exclusion of those in need.
- Capitalism promotes over-production (ie WASTE) and planned obsolescence (ie MORE WASTE)
- Capitalism does not naturally allow for the motivation to conserve and preserve Allah's property. (Forget "regulation", if that worked the environment would be in better shape)
- Capitalism promotes, fosters and perpetuates a culture of greed.
Islam may not be the "ultimate form of communism", but anybody who would assert that capitalism is Islamic is even farther from correct.
~Peace
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Peace fellow members,
In my studies of the Quran, I have never found verses which support pure capitalism or pure socialism/communism. The Quranic system, which I believe is divine, has some elements from both capitalism and socialism/communism.
The Quranic system seems to retain/endorse the best of capitalism, which is giving people personal freedom and choice (regarding work/career and health), giving people the incentive to work, allowing innovation and economic growth, while it seems to avoid the worst of capitalism by controlling/regulating corporate profiteering and privatization of natural resources at the expense of human/social life and nature. Wild corporate profiteering can have negative effects on human life as well as the environment.
The Quranic system seems to retain/endorse the best of socialism/communism, which is the redistribution of wealth (albeit through voluntary charity instead of involuntary taxation) and allows natural resources to be owned by the people of a country/community (instead of being owned by private corporations, whether national or foreign), while it seems to avoid the worst of socialism/communism by not allowing unhealthy concentration of power, passive welfare dependency, politization of science and health and last but not least the creation of too many laws.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus
Historically, in some socialist/communist countries, its citizens got fewer rights/freedoms and more power was given to the ruling elites in those states. Therefore many people seem to believe that socialism/communism can lead to totalitarianism. However, throughout history there have been both capitalist and communist/socialist countries that were totalitarian. For instance, after the coupe in 1973, Chile became a highly capitalist country. But even though it became a highly capitalist country, it also became a totalitarian state during the years following the seizure of power. It seems any state can become totalitarian, regardless of whether it has a socialist/communist system or a capitalist system.
In conclusion, the system of the Quran, which has elements from both capitalism and socialism/communism, seems to retain/endorse the best of these systems while avoiding the worst. Thus, the system of the quran seems to be beyond capitalism and socialism/communism (please check verse 482.