Alcohol

unknownuser

I cannot understand where you see "such a strong divine injunction" considering that there are much stronger divine injunctions in quran and the laws of khamr pale in comparison. 443 doesn't for example say believers should clean all the blood off your clothes when you have finished your murdering spree. Or when you have come back from the brothel, make sure to have a shower. I can understand it only from a perspective of strong conservatism. To be honest I will not yield to anyone clinging to any system other than that in quran itself. Bottom line, there are limits that shall not be exceeded and any who do so are transgressors, whichever side they are on.

"but still intoxicant should be avoided by choice" - "should be" "by choice" do not belong in the same sentence. I agree that being drunk or drinking at all, gambling, etc are things that believers 99% would not do but that does not mean for a second it should be forbidden.

Believers are NOT average people. Believers do not have sex before marriage. Believers do not steal. Believers do not ever give less than full measure when dealing. Believers do not murder, they fast, they are humble, they do not let fear of people/life get in the way of fear of ALLAH, they follow no code except the codes of ALLAH. Tell me if you have met a single "moderate drinker" that you stereotype with these characteristics because I haven't! Most people in society will lie, cheat, steal, kill, with sure pride and they will drink to excess. Their life is already one of excess and the excess carries through to intoxicating. A believer does not live in extremes. Saying "look at the disbelievers" for reasons why alcohol should be banned is like saying "look at the disbelievers" for reasons why guns should be banned even as quran prescribes fighting.

There is a time and place for everything. Not for a second can you compare one who looks to the judgement to one who wanders without purpose. Every single reason behind their actions is different.

Mazhar

I cannot understand where you see "such a strong divine injunction"

Simple imperative was not the choice.

The Imperative verb is of Form-VIII. Its affix "ta" indicates stronger role of the subject in doing the action and signifies more effort performed by the subject. Therefore the injunction is "you people must avoid that Rijis".

unknownuser

Therefore the injunction is "you people must avoid that Rijis".

Thanks

What do you make of the comparison to 54 and 2222, especially 2222?

We must be aware of the relevance paradox "The relevance paradox describes an attempt to gather information relevant to a decision, which fails when the elimination of distracting or unnecessary information also excludes information that is later realised to be crucial"

Mazhar

Thanks

What do you make of the comparison to 54 and 2222, especially 2222?

2222 That needs still stronger determination and effort to desist performing "that act" particularly at "heated moments". In view of Form-VIII imperative, I translated it
"For this reason therefore, you people consciously refrain/restrain-stay away "performing sexually-enter semen" with such of wives who are in the state of the Menstruation//Menstrual discharge period."

2222

Layth

Peace to you all,

What frustrates me when I read this thread is that the same questions keep getting posted over and over again as if they have not been adressed time and time again!

People who come into this with a preconcieved notion are only seeing what they want to see, reading what they want to read...

Our quest is for truth and standing firm to God's words, regardless of what the whole world may think or say...

Here are 2 questions that I will pose and I hope it will make some see what to others is crystal clear

Can a person who is in a state of "intoxication/drunkeness" still be considered a "believer/mumin"? (see 443 for help)
Do "believers/mumins" adhere fully to God's laws, never ignoring them, and only carrying out acts that He has permitted/allowed? (see 2573, 2451 for help)

If you have answered "yes" to both questions, then you will be able to understand all the verses on the subject with the light of this foundation...But if your answer is "no", then there is nothing else that can be said...

Paradox_Uncreated

Peace.

To many, intoxication is a spiritual thing. Christians have their alcohol, the rastafaris and sadhus have their hashish, the psychonauts have their entheogens. That doesnt mean that they arent believers.

But most agree that the negatives outweight the benefits. And drug use, doesnt take you to heaven. "So wont you avoid it, so you will be successful."

A more or less famous quote by a psychedelics user "Psycedelics may have taken me to the top of the mountain, but to live there, I have to make the trek, by foot."

You have to reach a mindstate that is joyful, without drugs. And if you have been godconscious for a longer time, any other state will be seen as a lower state, and not preferred.

Mazhar

Here are 2 questions that I will pose and I hope it will make some see what to others is crystal clear

Can a person who is in a state of "intoxication/drunkeness" still be considered a "believer/mumin"? (see 443 for help)
Do "believers/mumins" adhere fully to God's laws, never ignoring them, and only carrying out acts that He has permitted/allowed? (see 2573, 2451 for help)

If you have answered "yes" to both questions, then you will be able to understand all the verses on the subject with the light of this foundation...But if your answer is "no", then there is nothing else that can be said...

What to say of ordinary believer, this might be done even by Muttaqeen. However, they are such

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And when such people committed an illicit sexual act, for the first time,
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or wronged their selves,
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.135r.gif
they recalled/remembered Allah and for this reason sought pardon for their respective sins;
since/and who is there who could forgive sins except Allah.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.135t.gif
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.78h.gif
And they did not tie themselves/made it habit/repetitive action with what illicit act they had done; and they know

Mazhar

and He may reward those who who acted moderately and appropriately with magnanimity.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/Temo%2001%2053.32.gif
And those people are those who consciously avoid committing major and grave sins and illicit sexual activities except the minor occasional lapses.

5331-32

Read in conjunction

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.219a.gif

2219

590

Hoppean

I am not a Bible fan as you know for a) the Quran overrides the Bible (see 54,

In light of this statement, can you please provide an exegesis of 541-49, and 565-66? Thanks.

and b) the Bible is distorted to say the least in its transmission of the words of Jesus Christ.

Are you claiming that the Quran teaches this? Or that you have evidence that the words of Christ we have now, are different from what they were originally? Thanks.

P.S. It might be better to start a new thread, if you intend to answer.

Noon_dhe_plume

Peace,

Why I?m not surprised that you didn?t answer my question in light of the 733?Because if you wanted to discuss the word sin/ithm in that verse then you had to admit that yes God has used the exact word there and made sins Haram.

Ith'mun/harm is not sin and is the opposite of benefit and prohibited is causing al-ith'ma/the harm to others not the use of things which if used improperly may cause ith'mun/harm to oneself.

2219 they ask you about al-khamri/the inebriant and the gambling say in them both ith'mun/harm great and benefits to the mankind and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both

733 say indeed what prohibited my Lord the immorality what apparent from it and what hidden wal-ith'ma/and the harm and the oppression without the truth and that you associate with The God what not He sent down in it authority and that you say on The God what not you know

Likewise difference between al-khamri and sakaran and it's not good to interchange them.

443 O you the ones who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying

1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for people who reason

Thus people can make harmful things like intoxicants and helpful things (i.e. that benefit, cause temporary pain relief etc). The verses pertaining to the topic are like warning labels for drugs, drinks, and even the best foods which if over consumed can lead obesity and other health issues.

warner

Peace

I think Noon is correct, Khamr and sukara should not be interchanged.

Also would it be possible that 1667 is contrasting sakaran/intoxicant with razaqan/good food just as the previous verse does between blood, excretion and milk ?

unknownuser

Thanks

Asana

Peace Noon dhe plume

Bad deeds are named as sin in Quran?.Whether you?d like to call a sin harm on anything else that?s your choice but God in 2219 says that there is great sin in intoxicants.

Thus people can make harmful things like intoxicants and helpful things (i.e. that benefit, cause temporary pain relief etc). The verses pertaining to the topic are like warning labels for drugs, drinks, and even the best foods which if over consumed can lead obesity and other health issues.

God doesn?t put warning label on things like that and leave it to us to make the decision whether we are capable to handle it rightlfully or not?God specifies that the sins of intoxicants overweight the benefit .And then in 590 commands us to avoid them?.How is it possible that Merciful God leaves us in bewilderedness zone to decide what to do when He precisely says that the sin in them is greater than their benefit that we might think and then commanding us avoiding them as we must avoid idolatry in 590?..Below is the list of occurrence of the word of sin .In none of them God labels them .God is reminding us what sins are and then He specifically calls the sin Haram in 733.

285

2173

2181

2182

2188

2203

2206

2219

3178

420

448

450

4111

4112

52

53

529

562

563

5107

6120

733

2411

3358

4237

4912

5332

588

589

Asana

Asana

Dear Layth

I answered exactly the point you raised (and which you did a good job of highlighting in bold and font size and color), yet it seems you were not satisfied wiht my answer and are saying I should have answered more!?

Interesting that you say this. My answer was exactly proportionate to the question raised - yet, because it did not meet your preconcieved notion on the subject, it has become unnaceptable. What am I to say?

You answered to two questions in the same manner! It looks like you didn?t have answer to them!
I am not looking for satisfaction by your answers. I?m looking for the Truth of God to be shined?I submit to God no matter what .It has no any effects on me whether it?s forbidden or not .

Let me remind you of your claim. You stated that the word "Ith" being used in the subject of alcohol is a violation of God's commands as the belivers are to avoid "Ithm". I simply pointed out that alcohol in itself has never been called "Ithm" but that the verse says "In Them is Ithm" which gives a drastically differnt conclusion than that which you had raised.

You mean when God says there is sin in some things(2219...590) it means that we can ignore what God says by takeing things in our own hands to see whether we?re capable in handling it or not. Is that why you?re implying?!

God's Book has no contradictions. The object to be avoided is "Satan" (IjtanibuHu) and not the items as you are attempting to make out. Will you still insist on making the Quran say what it is not saying?

In your opinion according to your statement how should we suppose avoid Satan?
It looks like according to you one can drink or gamble but at the same time can remember God?It looks like you take the verse conditionally if only one can behave moderately not in excess while God command us to avoid them no matter what kind of logic we come up with it?.Shouldn't God's commands to be taken as ?heard and obeyed? not challenging Him by wishfully thinking that we can handle things?.?Those who challenge God by thinking that they can make decision by being in control take God?s commands in vain?.And that?s exactly why we are here on this earth to decide who is our Master, our ego/Satan or God,who is in control,us or God.
Those who think that they can control themselves by drinking alcohol moderately or gambling a little bit not only violate God?s command by not avoiding them but also causeing that God takes away His supports , leaving them in their wishful thought of controlling which means sending them astray.

One can gamble and at the same time Praises God .In this manner the person hasn?t forgotten God but is that God means by avoiding those acts? In this manner God hasn?t be forgotten and one can say God was wrong! Glory be to God, He is above that to command us in vain.

This comment was adressed to all the Internet doctors who are suddenl providing medical claims as to why alcohol should be avoided...I am simply pointing out the obvious, that the risk of such items is related to specific items (causing strife, forgetting the rememberance of God) and not to the myriad of self made excuses that were being posted.

And I wanted to highlight there that Idolatry and intoxicants are in the same boat!. If one think can pass the boundary by committing idolatry by not avoiding it then can use intoxicant a little bit too as some understand for its benefit.

"You make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for people who comprehend"

Can it get any clearer than this? God not only acknolweldges that wine is being made from these fruits, but He calls is a "sign" for people who comprehend!

The sign is for the intelligent to be seen we can make out of good things bad things to harm ourselves too. We can commit sin by eating things that God reminded us not to eat.

So, now you are saying that the "khamr" in Heaven is not real "khamr" (fruit juce I guess!). Naming it "khamr" then becomes a msitake on God's part since it will not "cover" as "khamr" inherintly does - you are clutching at straw shere.

Are you sure dear Layth I?m clutching at straw here? Then why God asks the drunken not to observer Salat?

When the brain doesn't function properly by using intoxicants is in a state of ?sukara?.

BTW are you saying that the wine in Paradise is polluted too as on earth where God says according to you there is harm in them? I hope you can see the fallacy of your logic here.

The only grey-zone is the one you have constructed on your own...A believer can be intoxicated and still be a believer (see 443) - will you dispute this obvious fact
?

A believer commit sin too?Are you disputing that it?s possible a believer miss his/her Salat too and yet to be called a believer?

Glory be to God that asks a drunken by not committing second sin by observing Salat where he/she can blasphemies too or hurt oneself through the motions of prayer etc?a believer never miss her/his prayer?.Once missed it, it can?t be substituted again?And isn?t a punishment from God by not making an exist to the drunken to substitute the missing Salat/s? Are you still would like to insist on that a drunken hasn?t committed a sin? Wow.

May God enlighten the heart of the believers with His True Light to see His Truth.

Peace
Asana

Edip_Yuksel

Peace to you all,
Here are 2 questions that I will pose and I hope it will make some see what to others is crystal clear

Can a person who is in a state of "intoxication/drunkeness" still be considered a "believer/mumin"? (see 443 for help)
Do "believers/mumins" adhere fully to God's laws, never ignoring them, and only carrying out acts that He has permitted/allowed? (see 2573, 2451 for help)

If you have answered "yes" to both questions, then you will be able to understand all the verses on the subject with the light of this foundation...But if your answer is "no", then there is nothing else that can be said...

Dear Layth, this is based on logical fallacy called Either/Or... You are confusing the prescriptive statements with descriptive ones and you are limiting our choice with the prescriptive one...

Using the same flawed logic, we should say "it is okay to kill each other, in fact 'moderation' in killing each other is the characteristic of a 'moderate society' (ummatan wasata)."! See 499.

As you see, you do not have it crystal clear; to the contrary, you are trying to defend one of the acts, which are depicted as "the works of devil", which is followed by the divine instruction "stay away from them."

So, I follow those verses you quoted and STAY AWAY from alcohol and gambling.

Peace,
Edip

Layth

Dear Edip,

If I am drunk/intoxicated, can I still be a believer in my state of drunkeness?

I claim this is a simple observation that anyone can deduce from 443 - even the Quran hating Sunni Arabs - which is why they invented the law of "abrogation".

Regards,

Noon_dhe_plume

Peace Asana,

Bad deeds are named as sin in Quran?.Whether you?d like to call a sin harm on anything else that?s your choice but God in 2219 says that there is great sin in intoxicants.

God doesn?t put warning label on things like that and leave it to us to make the decision whether we are capable to handle it rightlfully or not?God specifies that the sins of intoxicants overweight the benefit .And then in 590 commands us to avoid them?.How is it possible that Merciful God leaves us in bewilderedness zone to decide what to do when He precisely says that the sin in them is greater than their benefit that we might think and then commanding us avoiding them as we must avoid idolatry in 590?..Below is the list of occurrence of the word of sin .In none of them God labels them .God is reminding us what sins are and then He specifically calls the sin Haram in 733.

2219 they ask you about the inebriant and the gambling say in them both harm great and benefits to the mankind and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both

733 say indeed prohibited my Lord the immorality what apparent from it and what hidden and the harm and the oppression without the truth and that you associate with The God what not He sent down in it authority and that you say on The God what not you know

Do you not see the contradiction in using/translating as sin?
How can there be any benefit to mankind in committing sin?

Prohibited is causing the harm (opposite of benefit) like hitting someone in the head with a beer bottle. Be precise in the reading and not interchange dissimilar words like al-khamri and sakaran; here are relevant verses for reference and it's avoid him (the devil) not avoid them...

443 O you the ones who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying

1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for people who reason

590 O you the ones who believe indeed the inebriant and the gambling and the monuments and the arrows filth from work the devil so avoid him that you may prosper

591 indeed intends the devil that cause between you the hostility and the hatred in the inebriant and the gambling and hinder you about remembrance The God and from the prayer so shall you (be) those who abstain?

592 and obey The God and obey the messenger and beware so if you turn away so know that only on Our messenger the conveyance the clear

Things to be aware of are the drunkenness and the gambling if one is to prosper.

Example; if all people who frequent casinos were sober and really good at gaming theory (i.e. deployed card counting and only raised their bets after a win) the casinos would lose and have to close down or change the rules so they are at an advantage again which of course the sober person would know odds are against them same as the lottery (a form of arrows) and not waste their time.

Cheers!

Asana

Peace Noon dhe plume

Do you not see the contradiction in using/translating as sin?

You have chosen to use the word of harm instead of sin while God uses the word of sin as I said before.

You?re trying to explain what sin is while we know in what context God uses the word of sin?.Your repeated explanation doesn?t change the fact that the word of sin has been used by God in 2219 plus other verses and sin has been made Haram by God in 733 unless you'd like to deny that which of course you can't.

What you?re trying to say is that it?s impossible something benefit us a bit but at the same time harm us and for that reason God calls it sin and then make the sins Haram....As you can see God has done it!

Please don?t forget that when God makes meat of the pig Haram, Almighty God explains the reason behind it likewise God reminds us about the small benefit of intoxicants/gambling where its great sin wipes out their benefits .If God wanted us using intoxicants in moderation or for its benefit He wouldn?t have called it ?rijs/abomination? work of Satan.

you?re reminding me that it?s the Satan who we should avoid .What you say means using the intoxicant for example on its own is not what God means but it?s the Satan while you forget that avoiding the work of Satan is avoiding him???.The reason behind our test on this earth is about avoiding Satan but how we should avoid him is another matter where God reminds us intoxicant is an abomination and one of the Satan?s work that must be avoided! In regarding command of God there is no such as if or maybe! It?s simple, avoid Satan through his works/tools and say yes God ?heard and obeyed??.Believers do not challenge God by ignoring His reminders/commands.

I really like to know how you avoid Satan regarding 590.
I'm aware of usage of the word of Sakaran in 1667 instead of intoxicant and i'd like you to tell me the difference between the state of mind by using intoxicants as used in 2219 and sakaran in 1667 if it's used.

Below is the list of occurrences of word of ?rijs? in entire Quran.Please note that all the sins promotes by Satan and are ?rijs?;

590
6125
6145
771
995
9125
9125 l

10100
2230

And here is the occurrences of the word of ?avoiding? Please note the usage of the word of sin in 4912 where God commands us to avoid certain suspicions and calls it ?ithm/sin??.Avoiding Satan is avoiding the action/work of Satan .He promotes it by enticing us in doing them in order to take the lead to divert us from the Straight path of God and as soon as he is chose over God, Almighty God takes away His support sending us astray

431
590
1636
2230
2230
3917
4237
4912
5332

Asana

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Edip,

If I am drunk/intoxicated, can I still be a believer in my state of drunkeness?

I claim this is a simple observation that anyone can deduce from 443 - even the Quran hating Sunni Arabs - which is why they invented the law of "abrogation".

Regards,

Dea Layth

As a beliver, one may commit a sin and still maintain his or her faith and acknowledgement.
As an acrobat, one may fall while walking on the street and still maintain his or her title.
As an author, one may construct a horrible sentence and still maintain his or her profession.
As a comedian, one may cry and make people cry and still be consitered a commedian.
...

However, committing sin is not good for a believer, falling down while walking is not good for an acrobat... Committing those errors on will and continously might "engulf one with sins" and destroy his dreams, position, reputation, or career...

PS If something is considered as "work of satan" and we are instructed to "stay away" from it, then there should be a categorical definition of such a sin, or a clearer border.

I hope the best for you.

Noon_dhe_plume

Peace Noon dhe plume

You have chosen to use the word of harm instead of sin while God uses the word of sin as I said before.

You?re trying to explain what sin is while we know in what context God uses the word of sin?.Your repeated explanation doesn?t change the fact that the word of sin has been used by God in 2219 plus other verses and sin has been made Haram by God in 733 unless you'd like to deny that which of course you can't.

What you?re trying to say is that it?s impossible something benefit us a bit but at the same time harm us and for that reason God calls it sin and then make the sins Haram....As you can see God has done it!

Please don?t forget that when God makes meat of the pig Haram, Almighty God explains the reason behind it likewise God reminds us about the small benefit of intoxicants/gambling where its great sin wipes out their benefits .If God wanted us using intoxicants in moderation or for its benefit He wouldn?t have called it ?rijs/abomination? work of Satan.

Peace Asana -- one thing at time.

You interpret harm as sin (in Christian theology a transgression of God's law knowingly and willingly) and where does it say that drugs or alcohol have "a bit" or little benefit to mankind since the word little is not there?

2219 say in them both harm great and benefits to the mankind
and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both

Therefore, according to your reading it's a sin to inject cocaine products or use alcohol to sterilize tools during oral surgery your next root canal or any surgery for that matter because "the sin" is greater than the benefit for the people?

PS If something is considered as "work of satan" and we are instructed to "stay away" from it, then there should be a categorical definition of such a sin, or a clearer border.

Same question to you -- what is "work of satan" a glass of wine/beer or the gambling while intoxicated?

During your next tooth extraction or root canal will you refuse and tell the doctor, no thanks it is a sin?

I hope the best for you.