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  4. Who made the Kabba???

Who made the Kabba???

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  • Y Offline
    Y Offline
    youssef4342
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    http//aididsafar.com/shaivite.html
    ????

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    • R Offline
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      Reborn23
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      no idea if kaaba was previously a temple or not. But I finished reading Aidid Safar's book named 'Mental bondage' lately and the author has proved that Abraham couldn't have made kaaba.

      Quran says God never sent any messengers to Arabs before Prophet Muhammad. So could Abraham just go all the way to Makkah, build the kaaba and go back just like that? I mean Abraham would definitely have asked the arabs to help build the house of God. the arabs of makkah must have asked abraham who he was and why was he building the house of God and who told him to do that etc. it's not possible that abraham could have built the kaaba and gone back without telling the arabs that he was a prophet of God. But Quran says the opposite.

      So the only logical conclusion is Abraham did not build the kaaba because he never went there.

      Aidid Safar has propose a whole new meaning to kaaba. You should read the book if you want to know what kaaba really means.

      I know it's hard to digest this, but doesn't it make sense? What do you think?

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      • J Offline
        J Offline
        JLM
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Wouldn't praying towards the Kaaba be idolatry then, especially if Abraham didn't build it? for all we know Muslims could be praying towards something that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

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        • K Offline
          K Offline
          KDC501
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Wouldn't praying towards the Kaaba be idolatry then, especially if Abraham didn't build it? for all we know Muslims could be praying towards something that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

          Praying towards something doesn't mean that you are worshiping it. The logic behind a Qibla is to represent unity. I personally believe that the Qibla is the Temple mount in Jerusalem (the place of Abraham) and not Mecca.

          One thing note is that praying towards a Qibla is not a new practice but an old one that existed during Biblical times...

          Daniel 610 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

          2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

          Peace,

          Kevin.

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          • R Offline
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            Reborn23
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Praying towards something doesn't mean that you are worshiping it. The logic behind a Qibla is to represent unity. I personally believe that the Qibla is the Temple mount in Jerusalem (the place of Abraham) and not Mecca.

            One thing note is that praying towards a Qibla is not a new practice but an old one that existed during Biblical times...

            Daniel 610 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

            2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

            Peace,

            Kevin.

            Hmm. but where in the verse 2144 does it say we have to face the kaaba when praying? Sure muslims don't go around facing the qibla, they just face it when they pray. So where in the above verse it is mentioned that you have to face it only when you have to pray?

            And it says 'where ever they are'. So didn't God know that there will be people in the future who will be travelling in space and staying in the space stations that orbit the earth some 16 times a day? How are these people supposed to face the kaaba then, if the qibla is a physical thing that God is telling us to focus to?

            And what unity are you talking about? We can all see how united are the Muslims all over the world when the time comes to show their unity. Muslims are divided into so many sects, each one thinking it is on the right path and all the others are misguided, each sect fighting with the other. And many of the sects are further subdivided into smaller sects. Can we even imagine how split Muslims are?

            They are so not united. Not even in something as small as a trivial matter of Jurisprudence. In such circumstances, what difference does our facing the kaaba make? Did not God know about this? Didnt He know Muslims will be split up in numerous sects? Wouldnt God rather give Muslims a better thing to focus if it was about representing unity?

            My understanding (after reading Aidid Safars views and scrutinizing the proofs presented by him ) is that the word qibla doesnt mean the physical direction, its more like an ideological direction or focus. Because it seems rather irrational that God would order us to physically face a physical thing (the house of God/Baitullah) when praying, if you think about it.

            Firstly, God doesnt need a house, Since He is not human, he is not subjected to human needs. And He is Omniscient.

            Secondly, the word Baitullah is nowhere to be found in Quran.

            Thirdly, nowhere in the Quran does it say we have to face the kaaba when praying. The verse says

            Therefore, we set the direction that pleases you. Thus, focus your self towards the (masjidil-Haram) wherever you may be. Therefore, focus your self towards it. Surely, those who were given the Scripture know this is the truth from your Lord. (2144)

            Taking into account the face that the above verse doesnt specify that we have to focus to the masjidil harami when praying, should we conclude that we are being told here to focus on the masjidil haram all the time, whereever we are, whatever we are doing? Obviously that sounds too absurd to be true.

            So now we have only two options; either the qibla doesnt mean physical qibla or masjidil haram is not a physical place or both.

            If we take qibla to mean an ideological focus which God is telling us to focus to, then the masjidil harami as a physical place wouldnt make sense either.

            Since the verse doesnt specify we have to focus to the kaaba while praying, that can only mean our focus has to be constant which is not possible for us if the we take masjidil haram to mean a physical mosque or any physical place. Is it possible for you to constantly focus yourself towards the Masjidil haram (if it is kaaba) ?

            So you see there is something terribly wrong with the traditional understanding of this verse.

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            • J Offline
              J Offline
              JLM
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Praying towards something doesn't mean that you are worshiping it. The logic behind a Qibla is to represent unity. I personally believe that the Qibla is the Temple mount in Jerusalem (the place of Abraham) and not Mecca.

              One thing note is that praying towards a Qibla is not a new practice but an old one that existed during Biblical times...

              Daniel 610 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

              2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

              Peace,

              Kevin.

              I suppose that's true. I know Judaism has its own qibla and says to face Jerusalem so why shouldn't there be a qibla for us?

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              • E Offline
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                exodus
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Wouldn't praying towards the Kaaba be idolatry then, especially if Abraham didn't build it? for all we know Muslims could be praying towards something that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

                Very good observation. It doesn't matter Abraham built it or not.. this kind of ritual is nothing but idolatry..

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                • J Offline
                  J Offline
                  JLM
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Very good observation. It doesn't matter Abraham built it or not.. this kind of ritual is nothing but idolatry..

                  So we shouldn't be praying towards the kaaba? Sorry, I'm just confused and want verification.

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                  • K Offline
                    K Offline
                    KDC501
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Hmm. but where in the verse 2144 does it say we have to face the kaaba when praying? Sure muslims don't go around facing the qibla, they just face it when they pray. So where in the above verse it is mentioned that you have to face it only when you have to pray?

                    Careful study will show that the Kaaba mentioned in the Quran is the Restricted Sanctuary. Study the Quran carefully before you jump to conclusions .

                    597 God has made the Kaaba , the Restricted Sanctuary(almasjidi alharami), a maintenance for the people, and also the restricted month, the donations, the regulations so that you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in earth, and that God is aware of all things.

                    2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

                    The Restricted Temple = Kaaba. Study the Quran carefully.

                    And it says 'where ever they are'. So didn't God know that there will be people in the future who will be travelling in space and staying in the space stations that orbit the earth some 16 times a day? How are these people supposed to face the kaaba then, if the qibla is a physical thing that God is telling us to focus to?

                    If this is the case then God is Omnipresent. If you are in space or you are uncertain as to where the Qibla may be(on earth) then pray in whatsoever direction you wish. Believers should learn to exercise some type of intelligence in cases like these. You cannot expect God to make a rule every single aspect of our lives!!! Can you imagine the size of that Book if God had to do that???? Didn't God give us a brain to think???

                    2115 To God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

                    And what unity are you talking about? We can all see how united are the Muslims all over the world when the time comes to show their unity. Muslims are divided into so many sects, each one thinking it is on the right path and all the others are misguided, each sect fighting with the other. And many of the sects are further subdivided into smaller sects. Can we even imagine how split Muslims are?

                    Unity among THE BELIEVERS. I do not classify believers as hadithist,suicide bombers, Islamic rapists , and misguided maulanas

                    My understanding (after reading Aidid Safar?s views and scrutinizing the proofs presented by him ) is that the word qibla doesn?t mean the physical direction, its more like an ideological direction or focus. Because it seems rather irrational that God would order us to physically face a physical thing (the house of God/Baitullah) when praying, if you think about it.

                    Firstly, God doesn?t need a house, Since He is not human, he is not subjected to human needs. And He is Omniscient.

                    Secondly, the word ?Baitullah? is nowhere to be found in Quran.

                    The Quran is clear in it's explanation that the qibla is a PHYSICAL direction. Qibla's have been in use for thousands of years during bibical times. The proof is there in history so I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about this ideological direction.

                    And yes God doesn't need a house (nor dwell in a hosue ) but rather that God is worshiped at a temple. Two different things.

                    Since the verse doesnt specify we have to focus to the kaaba while praying, that can only mean our focus has to be constant which is not possible for us if the we take masjidil haram to mean a physical mosque or any physical place. Is it possible for you to constantly focus yourself towards the Masjidil haram (if it is kaaba) ?

                    So you see there is something terribly wrong with the traditional understanding of this verse.

                    Not a physical place??? How can this be when the muslims were barred from sending donations and visiting the Restricted Temple. How can you ban someone from an imaginary place??? Are you reading the Quran carefully???

                    4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. There had been acknowledging men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.

                    One thing to note ... the word kaaba doesn't necessarily mean 'cube shape'. If you look at Sura 56 ....

                    56 O you who acknowledge, when you rise to attend the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles(kaabian) ( use to describe to describe any feature that is protruding such as the bones to the side of the ankle) ; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.

                    Hence, any structure can be a kaaba once it stands out of the plain.

                    Peace,

                    Kevin.

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                    • J Offline
                      J Offline
                      JLM
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Thanks, Kevin. That post helped to clear up some of my confusion as well.

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                      • J Offline
                        J Offline
                        Jafar
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        So we shouldn't be praying towards the kaaba? Sorry, I'm just confused and want verification.

                        Let's reason on this..

                        Depending on your location; on some places it will be very difficult for you to 'face the kabba' (or any predefined location) for praying.

                        For example; if you're in Hawaii or some island in middle of pacific, then kabba (or jerusalem or any other places within middle east region) exact location is actually under your feet, given the earth is round. Feel free to check the google earth...

                        For me; it's quite strange (and ridiculous) to have a 'centralized point on earth surface to face' upon praying, it's valid IF the earth is flat (which was the common view some centuries ago), given the earth is round like a ball it will be very difficult.

                        Salam / Peace

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                        • J Offline
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                          Jafar
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          http//aididsafar.com/shaivite.html
                          ????

                          His article and argument make sense; especially if you're familiar with hinduism or ancient indo-european culture.

                          Makkah = Fire (in sanskrit)
                          Shiva = god of destruction often symbolized by fire.
                          Black stone (Hajjar Aswad) = Bali stone, the stone to mark the beginning and the end for 'pradakshina'.
                          Pradakshina = the act of encircling a holy/sacred object (usually the deity's statue or other form of deity's symbol).
                          Shiva Pradakshina = the act of encircling in honor to Shiva, especially for Shiva it's clockwise..
                          http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pradakshina

                          Most probably; The shrine in a place called Makka was originally a shrine to honor Shiva..

                          Mind you that the so-called "indo-european" people is the forefather of many people/races in the world including but not limited to the aryans/persians, the caucasians (Slavs, Celts, Amorites, Germanic, Gaelic etc..), the melanesians (thais,malays) , the altheans (mongol,turks) etc..

                          However.. on contrary to the adid safar's article where many times he mentioned something called "India Empire"; the word "India" or "Indian people" is a recent 'social identity' invented by "British-India Nationalist" (such as Gandhi and friends) and doesn't exist in ancient times. There are no record of "Indian Empire" in any ancient document. The name probably originated from "Indus River" which oddly enough now located within a country called Pakistan and not India.

                          Salam / Peace

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                          • K Offline
                            K Offline
                            KDC501
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Let's reason on this..

                            Depending on your location; on some places it will be very difficult for you to 'face the kabba' (or any predefined location) for praying.

                            For example; if you're in Hawaii or some island in middle of pacific, then kabba (or jerusalem or any other places within middle east region) exact location is actually under your feet, given the earth is round. Feel free to check the google earth...

                            For me; it's quite strange (and ridiculous) to have a 'centralized point on earth surface to face' upon praying, it's valid IF the earth is flat (which was the common view some centuries ago), given the earth is round like a ball it will be very difficult.

                            Salam / Peace

                            Brother Jafar,

                            I have heard of this argument before and I am sorry to say that it makes little sense to me. We all know that God expects us to be intelligent believers. Do you really think that when the God says to face in the direction of the Sanctuary (The Qibla) that he means to face directly to the earth (if you are half-way around the world) OR does he mean to face he in GEOGRAPHIC direction of the Qibla??? Try to broaden your interpretations and don't limit them to nonsensical arguments.

                            Here?s another question If you live in New York and someone comes up and asks you which direction is Barbados; are you going to tell them that it?s below the earth or are you going to tell them that it is south-east of New York???

                            Also am I to assume that you would not face the Qibla even though you were directly in front of it??? Isn't God?s book clear in what we should do in regards to the Qibla???

                            2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do

                            Peace,

                            Kevin

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                            • Y Offline
                              Y Offline
                              youssef4342
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Peace everyone!

                              The direction for Qibla to my ideology is Through the Earth.
                              If there is a mountain between you and an object, and you're trying to face it, you would directly look through the mountain (you wouldn't look above the mountain and expect your sight to "drop" to the other side of the mountain to see the object.
                              The same concept with the earth. The earth is a sphere, and so if you want to look at something at the other side of the globe, you would look through the earth..
                              http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/qiblah.html

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                              • J Offline
                                J Offline
                                Jafar
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                I have heard of this argument before and I am sorry to say that it makes little sense to me. We all know that God expects us to be intelligent.

                                Agree on that..

                                Do you really think that when the God says to face in the direction of the Sanctuary (The Qibla) that he means to face directly to the earth (if you are half-way around the world) OR does he mean to face he in GEOGRAPHIC direction of the Qibla??? Try to broaden your interpretations and don't limit them to nonsensical arguments.

                                You right.. try to broad your interpretations...
                                How about; It doesn't mean LITERALLY point your face towards some place..
                                Especially since the verse doesn't mention any word of 'prayer' in it.

                                Here?s another question If you live in New York and someone comes up and asks you which direction is Barbados; are you going to tell them that it?s below the earth or are you going to tell them that it is south-east of New York???

                                I would point him to the JFK airport.. definitely.. and tell him to grab a flight from there to Barbados..

                                Also am I to assume that you would not face the Qibla even though you were directly in front of it??? Isn't God?s book clear in what we should do in regards to the Qibla???

                                2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do

                                Kevin

                                And please read this as well.. (within the same 'chapter&#039 as it clarify this issue further...

                                It is not righteousness that you turn your faces Towards east or West;
                                but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and freeing slaves; to be steadfast in salat, and give zakat; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic.
                                Such are the people of truth, the righteous.

                                (2177)

                                Salam / Peace

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                                • K Offline
                                  K Offline
                                  KDC501
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  You right.. try to broad your interpretations...
                                  How about; It doesn't mean LITERALLY point your face towards some place..
                                  Especially since the verse doesn't mention any word of 'prayer' in it.

                                  Brother Jafar,

                                  I am in agreement with you that the verse doesn't mention the word pray in it. However it is ?common knowledge? (among the People of the Book) that the Qiblah is used as the direction of pray.

                                  2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

                                  2146 Those to whom We have given the book know it as they know their own children, and a group of them hides the truth while they know. (Jews and the Christians know the truth)

                                  The People of the Book know that facing the Sanctuary is done during pray. So if you are in doubt of what is in the Quran then ask a Jew or a Christian.

                                  1094 If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask those who have been studying the book from before you. The truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt. (If God asked Muhammad a Prophet of God to do this then who are we not to ask the People of the Book???)

                                  So when the Quran says ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it? we know that it means during pray since it will be illogical to face the Qiblah all the time 24/7.

                                  In addition focal points were used as a direction for pray.
                                  If you read Sura 1087

                                  1087 We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the contact prayer. Give good news to those who acknowledge."

                                  Contemplate on the phrase in bold

                                  2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say, "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say, "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path." ? The phrase in bold indicates ( or strongly implies) that the focal point was used for the direction to commemorate God. Isn?t pray a commemoration of God???

                                  Peace ,

                                  Kevin

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                                  • K Offline
                                    K Offline
                                    KDC501
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    It is not righteousness that you turn your faces Towards east or West;
                                    but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and freeing slaves; to be steadfast in salat, and give zakat; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic.
                                    Such are the people of truth, the righteous.

                                    (2177)

                                    Salam / Peace

                                    I am in agreement. Righteousness is to believe. And if a person is a believer then he or she should do deeds that are of a believer (Charity, Help the Orphans , Exercise Patience, etc). However this verse CANNOT be used to negate praying towards the Qiblah. Again all that God is saying in this verse is that Righteousness is not facing towards the Qiblah but it is in our actions. However just because he says that Righteousness is not in facing towards Qiblah doesn?t mean that when we pray we shouldn?t face the Qiblah. The verse did not say that

                                    God?s law is crystal clear in the Quran.

                                    2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

                                    2149 From wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not oblivious of what you do.

                                    2150 Wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. Wherever you may be, you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.

                                    For those who do not know where the Qiblah is then they can pray in whatever direction they wish. But for those who know where the Qiblah is (through Quranic studies ) then is binding upon them to pray in the direction of the Qiblah unless they are in position where they are uncertain of it's exact direction

                                    Note to all readers Notice that they are only THREE VERSES in the Quran that says to face towards the Restricted Temple. Isn't that Ironic??? I just found out today when I was using quranix.org to check up on some verses.

                                    Peace,

                                    Kevin

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                                      Jafar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      I am in agreement. Righteousness is to believe. And if a person is a believer then he or she should do deeds that are of a believer (Charity, Help the Orphans , Exercise Patience, etc). However this verse CANNOT be used to negate praying towards the Qiblah. Again all that God is saying in this verse is that Righteousness is not facing towards the Qiblah but it is in our actions. However just because he says that Righteousness is not in facing towards Qiblah doesn?t mean that when we pray we shouldn?t face the Qiblah. The verse did not say that

                                      God?s law is crystal clear in the Quran.

                                      2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

                                      2149 From wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not oblivious of what you do.

                                      2150 Wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. Wherever you may be, you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.

                                      For those who do not know where the Qiblah is then they can pray in whatever direction they wish. But for those who know where the Qiblah is (through Quranic studies ) then is binding upon them to pray in the direction of the Qiblah unless they are in position where they are uncertain of it's exact direction

                                      Note to all readers Notice that they are only THREE VERSES in the Quran that says to face towards the Restricted Temple. Isn't that Ironic??? I just found out today when I was using quranix.org to check up on some verses.

                                      Where is the word PRAY/PRAYING in the above verses??

                                      Salam / Peace

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                                      • K Offline
                                        K Offline
                                        KDC501
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        Where is the word PRAY/PRAYING in the above verses??

                                        Salam / Peace

                                        Brother Jafar,

                                        I have already given you the answer in one of post before. It is either you missed the post or choose not to acknowledge it.

                                        In addition focal points were used as a direction for pray.
                                        If you read Sura 1087

                                        1087 We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the contact prayer. Give good news to those who acknowledge."

                                        Contemplate on the phrase in bold

                                        2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say, "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say, "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path." ? The phrase in bold indicates ( or strongly implies) that the focal point was used for the direction to commemorate God. Isn?t pray a commemoration of God???

                                        Peace ,

                                        Kevin

                                        1087 We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the contact prayer. Give good news to those who acknowledge."

                                        It can be interpreted from the above verse that a Qibla is used during pray.

                                        Also i you look at Sura 2142 and

                                        2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say, "What has turned them away from the focal point(Qibla) that they were on?" Say, "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."

                                        2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who acknowledges God and the Last day, and the angels, and the book, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he observes the Contact prayer, and contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and during persecution. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

                                        If you read two verses carefully, you can interpret that turning towards a Qibla was part of commemorating God. Isn't pray a commemoration of God???

                                        In addition , Qibla's were in use long before the Quran even existed . The truth is in history and the previous scriptures.

                                        Peace,

                                        Kevin

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                                        • J Offline
                                          J Offline
                                          Jafar
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Brother Jafar,

                                          1087 We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the contact prayer. Give good news to those who acknowledge."

                                          It can be interpreted from the above verse that a Qibla is used during pray.

                                          1087 is actually
                                          And we inspired Moses and his brother "TABAWWA LIQAUWMIKUM BI MISRA BUYUTAN WA'JALU BUYUTAQUM QIBLATAN WA AQIMU SALATA WA BASHIRI'L MU'MININ"

                                          Meanings of the 'transliterated arabic'
                                          SETTLE/STAY PUT/POST (TABAWWA.. is not leave) your people inside their homes in Egypt and make their homes (BUYUTAQUM is plural) QIBLAT AND Uphold the Shalat And give good news to the mu'min.

                                          The context was when Moses initially arrived in Egypt (perhaps prior to the plagues directed specifically towards the egyptians which shall came afterwards and then the embarkation/exodus) and here God was telling the Israelites through Moses to 'stay put in their HOMES (plural) in Egypt, make it as QIBLAT. The notion of WA which means AND denote a separate phrase between BUYUTAQUM QIBLATAN (Make their homes as QIBLAT) and AQIMU SHALATA (uphold the shalat).

                                          The verse actually makes relatively clearer what QIBLAT actually means; it is NOT A CENTRALIZED POINT TO FACE ON PRAYER but more of "PLACE OF GATHERINGS" / "RALLYING POINT" / "STAND IN DEFENSE" or perhaps "FOCUS POINT" for each household as the instruction was to make their own homes in Egypt (not in Jerusalem/Mekka) as respective household QIBLA.

                                          In addition , Qibla's were in use long before the Quran even existed . The truth is in history and the previous scriptures.

                                          I'm intrigue to know on what you think the equivalent Hebrew word for 'Qibla' is?
                                          And perhaps we can look it up in the Tanakh...

                                          Again there are no mention of prayer in Al-Baqarah verses on QIBLA.
                                          The verse you quote from chapter Yunus actually instruct the israelites to make their own respective homes in Egypt as QIBLA.

                                          Let's for the moment assume that QIBLA is indeed 'a point/location to face towards to in prayer' in accordance to your hypothesis..

                                          1. What makes you think that it should be Jerusalem? Why change from 'homes in Egypt' to Jerusalem? When did this happened?
                                          2. Is there any record of Israelites still maintaining their (old) homes in Egypt as 'a point/location to face towards to in prayer' after they migrate out of Egypt?? According to the Tanakh it is within an area called "Goshen" on the eastern bank of Nile River.

                                          Salam / Peace

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