Support for a Middle Prayer?

youssef4342

Peace everyone!
May the Lord God Almighty resolve our disputes and guide us to the correct path

Here are some supports for a Middle prayer

In 2238 God uses "Salawat" (3+ salats) not "salatayn" (2 salats)
In 2238 "al-salat al-wusta" can mean a middle prayer as per meaning of the root WST in 1005
in 1778 God states"You shall observe the salat from the ?duluk? of the sun up to the ?ghasaq?
(darkness) of the night?

When exactly does the ?duluk? of the sun occur?
When does the ?ghasaq? (darkness) of the night start.
-The "Duluk" of the sun has to most likely start when it declines because, you cannot see the sun after it has set! how can you know where it went? If one translates "Duluk" as the sun going beyond Horizon, it would be incorrect because again, there is no sun after it has set. God states "liduluk al-shams", doesn't this mean that you can still view the sun while it was "duluk-ing?
The darkness ?ghasaq? of the night, starts at sunset because sunset is first part of the darkness of the night.

God has already defined the evening prayer in 2458, It would be redundent to state "establish the same prayer" in different words in 2458 and 1778
God tells us he decreed for us the same religion as Abraham, Moses, Jesus (4213, and the previous books of God, (which God confirms in the Quran) speak of 3 prays (Daniel 610, psalms 5517, and the NT's times for prayer 3rd, 6th, and 9th hour)
Jews today are supposed to do 3 prayers. (Jewish "Salat" http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg)

May the Lord God resolve our diputes pr

KDC501

Peace everyone!
May the Lord God Almighty resolve our disputes and guide us to the correct path

Here are some supports for a Middle prayer

In 2238 God uses "Salawat" (3+ salats) not "salatayn" (2 salats)
In 2238 "al-salat al-wusta" can mean a middle prayer as per meaning of the root WST in 1005
in 1778 God states"You shall observe the salat from the ?duluk? of the sun up to the ?ghasaq?
(darkness) of the night?

When exactly does the ?duluk? of the sun occur?
When does the ?ghasaq? (darkness) of the night start.
-The "Duluk" of the sun has to most likely start when it declines because, you cannot see the sun after it has set! how can you know where it went? If one translates "Duluk" as the sun going beyond Horizon, it would be incorrect because again, there is no sun after it has set. God states "liduluk al-shams", doesn't this mean that you can still view the sun while it was "duluk-ing?
The darkness ?ghasaq? of the night, starts at sunset because sunset is first part of the darkness of the night.

God has already defined the evening prayer in 2458, It would be redundent to state "establish the same prayer" in different words in 2458 and 1778
God tells us he decreed for us the same religion as Abraham, Moses, Jesus (4213, and the previous books of God, (which God confirms in the Quran) speak of 3 prays (Daniel 610, psalms 5517, and the NT's times for prayer 3rd, 6th, and 9th hour)
Jews today are supposed to do 3 prayers. (Jewish "Salat" http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg)

May the Lord God resolve our diputes pr

I support the middle prayer because it is a well established prayer in Biblical history and it is not uncommon among the Jews and the Christians. Ironically just a few hours ago I found out that there are only three verses in the Quran that says to face towards the Restricted Sanctuary (2144, 2149 and 2150)

Peace,

Kevin

youssef4342

A word to my Final point
If God states in the Quran to the Children of Israel to "establish the salat", doesn't this mean that they already know what the salat is? again,even today the Children of Israel are supposed to pray 3 prayers a day.
My major point is that IF "al-salat al wusta" Can mean a middle prayer (WST can mean middle), and IF "duluk" cannot be pinpointed to a single definition, and IF the Quran can technically state 3 "salat" by names(Fjr,Esha,Wsta) , and IF the previous 3 scriptures of God (Prophets/Neviim, Pslams, Gospels) state 3 prayers, then there might as well be 3 prayers.

May the Lord God resolve our disputes and make us united!

Eikonoklastes

Peace youssef4342,

Peace everyone!
May the Lord God Almighty resolve our disputes and guide us to the correct path

Here are some supports for a Middle prayer

In 2238 God uses "Salawat" (3+ salats) not "salatayn" (2 salats)

Let's take a look at the verse, as if it said "middle contact prayer", and fit in your interpretation.

2238 Preserve the contact prayers, and the middle contact prayer, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

By YOUR interpretation, 2238 would imply

Preserve the 3 contact prayers, and the middle prayer, and stand devoutly for God.

Does that make sense to you? That's like me saying, "cover your eyes, and also cover your left eye". It's redundant. Allah would not say to preserve your 3 salat, and also preserve the middle of that 3. The fact that all the salat must be preserved, already covers the middle of those salat, if there were one.

This is 2238 in transliteration, with the part in question underlined

Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena

ssalawati = By your own admission, this means 3+. But that does not necessarily mean 3. It can be 3, or any number greater than 3. It could mean 5, 7, 9, 11... all have possible "middle" salat options and are greater than 3. The word simply means the "contact prayers". A plural form for ANY number that is not 2 and under.

So, 2238 Preserve the contact prayers ..., simply means to keep up the contact prayers in general. All your contact prayers in your life that you ever do. This still fits the "3+" definition.

Further proof of this is the fact that the alleged "middle contact prayer" in Arabic is "alssalatialwusta".

The dawn and dusk salat are referred to in 2458 by name, "salat al-fajr" and "salat al-isha".

Notice with this alleged "middle contact prayer" it is called "al-salat al-wusta". The "al" means "the" meaning it's an official, certain thing.

So if the sentence is, 2238 Preserve the contact prayers, and THE middle contact prayer..., that would indicate that of ALL your general salat upkeeping/preserving in your life, you must also upkeep THE one in the middle. That's quite absurd, isn't it? Nothing in this sentence refers to just within the day.

For a correct translation, see the response below to #2.

In 2238 "al-salat al-wusta" can mean a middle prayer as per meaning of the root WST in 1005

As I've pointed out above, the mere "title" of this alleged salat shows that it cannot refer to a "middle contact prayer" in the day. Besides the fact that it is redundant to single out a middle contact prayer after already saying to preserve all your contact prayers, the fact that it would be THE one middle contact prayer of one's life is ridiculous.

However, let's look into the root of the word (WST) as you've noted for any further evidence.

Waw-Siin-Tay = middle, midst, among, best, best part of a thing, mediate/intercede between, most remote from the extremes, equidistant, intermediate, most conforming/equitable/just/balanced, most excellent of them in particular, occupy the middle position.

Wasatna (prf. 3rd. p. f. pl.) they (f) penetrated into the midst.
Wastan (acc.) best, middle.
Ausat (acc.) average, the best one.
Wusta (acc.) middle, midmost, most excellent.
Wasatan (acc.) justly balanced, exalted.

wasata vb. (1) perf. act. 1005

wasat n.m. 2143, 2238, 589, 6828

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 194, 195, 196, 306

As we can see, yes, WST does indeed hold the meaning of "middle". HOWEVER, it also holds a meaning such as "best/mediate/non-extreme/balanced/most excellent". There are also references to where in The Quran the word is used to mean this latter definition.

As I've noted above, if you use the word "middle" for "wusta", you find yourself in GREAT error. The sentence becomes redundant and nonsensical. Nobody can deny this.

But when you plug in the other possible definition, we find the sentence makes complete sense! Let's try it out. I'm going to use another translation altogether that has the same meaning, but implements better words

2238 Be ever mindful of prayers, and of praying in the most excellent way; and stand before God in devout obedience.
2239 But if you are in danger, walking or riding; and when you are again secure, bear God in mind - since it is He who taught you what you did not previously know.

With this translation that holds the better fitting definition of "wusta" we do not see the errors we saw in the other translation that used "wusta" as "middle". There is no redundancy, and no need for searching for your middle prayer of all the prayers in your life.

Now it says to Be mindful of/preserve/keep up ALL THE SALAT IN GENERAL and to perform them in THE BEST/BALANCED way. All of the salat that one does, should be done in the best ways (outlined in other areas of the Quran).

NOW LOOK AT 2239! THE VERSE JUST AFTER!

2238 Be ever mindful of prayers, and of praying in the most excellent way; and stand before God in devout obedience.
2239 But if you are in danger, walking or riding; and when you are again secure, bear God in mind - since it is He who taught you what you did not previously know.

Suddenly, this verse makes sense! It starts with "But..." which signifies that it relates to the verse before it and what should be done if this verse cannot be carried out, and shows what to do if you CANNOT do the salat in THE BEST/BALANCED way.

If "wusta" was still translated as "middle", this verse would not make any sense in context. It would just be a random command afterwards. But by implementing the better definition of "wusta" all errors are cleared up, and the CONTEXT makes sense. Praise be to Allah!

in 1778 God states"You shall observe the salat from the ?duluk? of the sun up to the ?ghasaq?
(darkness) of the night?

When exactly does the ?duluk? of the sun occur?
When does the ?ghasaq? (darkness) of the night start.
-The "Duluk" of the sun has to most likely start when it declines because, you cannot see the sun after it has set! how can you know where it went? If one translates "Duluk" as the sun going beyond Horizon, it would be incorrect because again, there is no sun after it has set. God states "liduluk al-shams", doesn't this mean that you can still view the sun while it was "duluk-ing?
The darkness ?ghasaq? of the night, starts at sunset because sunset is first part of the darkness of the night.

The verse in question

1778 You shall hold the contact prayer at the setting of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.

1778 Aqimi alssalatalidulooki alshshamsi ila ghasaqi allayli waqur-anaalfajri inna qur-ana alfajri kana mashhoodan

Let's analyze the words in question here

dulook = Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The whole phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" by Lane.

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 72, 73

ghasaq = Gh-Siin-Qaf = darkness, the night; become obscure, shed tears, poured water; ice-cold darkness, intense coldness; watery/thick purulent matter that flows or drips, dark/murky/cold fluid.

Lane?s Lexicon, Volume 6, pages 41, 42

The word "dulook" as you can see implies the apparent rubbing of the sun on the horizon, during the sunset. And "ghasaq" clearly means the dark night. (Stop thinking about Batman )

You don't seem to deny any of this, however your problem lies with the fact that you don't believe it could be the Sun "rubbing" the horizon during sunset because the actual Sun cannot be seen. But what does that say about the LIGHT it emits? Have you watched a Sun as it goes down beyond the horizon? Even after the circular portion passes the horizon, the rays of light still emit, creating what we call "twilight". Once the circular part of the Sun is rubbing the horizon (the preposition "li" before "dulook" implies just after) we have that range of time within the twilight until it becomes COMPLETELY dark (ghasaq) to perform the dusk salat prayer, which is salat al-isha. So this is clearly referring to salat al-isha and NOT any type of "middle contact prayer". My response to #4 below further confirms this using other Quranic verses.

God has already defined the evening prayer in 2458, It would be redundent to state "establish the same prayer" in different words in 2458 and 1778

Verse in question

2458 O you who acknowledge, let those whom are under your contract and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times Before the dawn contact prayer, and when you take off your attire from the heat of the noon, and after the dusk contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Here, Allah refers to salat al-fajr and salat al-isha by title, respectively. Yes, the dawn and dusk are generally known times, but this is hardly DEFINED. Imagine all of the arguments if this is all we had to work with. People would argue every point from when the sun first hits the horizon, until it's completely dark. Furthermore, the point of this verse is not necessarily to define the salat as it is obviously speaking about another issue, but naming the 2 salat in passing.

However, what is to be noted about this verse is that it refers to the NOON TIME, which people believe is around the time one can begin this alleged "middle contact prayer", however mentions nothing about a salat at this time.

1778 then goes onto to confirm these TWO salat, by defining their times, particularly the dusk salat.

In the midst of all this, one should also note verse 11114 as well.

11114 You shall hold the contact prayer at both ends of the day and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder for those who remember.

Note it only refers to performing the salat at the TWO edges of the day. Dawn and dusk are when the night and day "meet"; the Quran explains this clearer in other areas. The "and the near part of the night" follows the "wa" (and) which holds the property of further explaining the point before, which is regarding the TWO edges. Therefore, the TWO salat are to be performed at the TWO edges of the day (respectively), closer to the night parts of them. This confirms 1778's explanation of the time being closer towards the NIGHT.

So, 2458 and 1778 and 11114 are all explaining and confirming only TWO SALAT. They are consistent and detailed - all praise be to Allah!

God tells us he decreed for us the same religion as Abraham, Moses, Jesus (4213, and the previous books of God, (which God confirms in the Quran) speak of 3 prays (Daniel 610, psalms 5517, and the NT's times for prayer 3rd, 6th, and 9th hour)

The Quran confirms that previous books were sent to previous messengers, but does not say that they would be preserved and infallible like the Quran is today. These books sent prior were corrupted, and therefore are not reliable sources for Quran-alone Muslims to base their religion on. These books also speak about circumcision, degrading females, and avoiding certain sea foods, should we follow that as well even though the Quran does not say to?

Jews today are supposed to do 3 prayers. (Jewish "Salat" http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg)

Are we not concerned about what Muslims who follow the Quran alone should do according to it?
Do you believe the book that the modern Jews follow today is preserved and infallible just like the Quran?

These are rhetorical questions, of course.

May Allah guide us all, and may peace be with everyone.

Eikonoklastes

A word to my Final point
If God states in the Quran to the Children of Israel to "establish the salat", doesn't this mean that they already know what the salat is? again,even today the Children of Israel are supposed to pray 3 prayers a day.

Peace,

Wouldn't the Children of Israel have to believe in the Quran first, in order to follow it? And if it says only 2 salat, then they must do that if they believe it. If they don't believe it, then they can be doing whatever else.

May peace be with you.

Jafar

I always view "Shalawat" to be "Blessings" and not "Ritualized Prayer"..

The context around 2238 is treatment to wife or women..
"Guard the blessings (to your wife/family), and the middle/average shalat and uphold for God devoutly"

And 2239 to me is an instruction to walk away or ride away towards a place of security (migrate out) when your life or your family (or wife) life are being threatened.. there are no 'pray' in the verse..

I don't have the Quran in front of me now but..
There are other verse in the Quran which commanded people to do "Shalawat" to the prophet and also description that God and the Angel are "Shalawat"-ing to him. Which gave a strong meaning of "Shalawat" = "Blessing" / "Give Blessing" and not "Praying" or "Worshipping".

Salam / Peace

Eikonoklastes

I always view "Shalawat" to be "Blessings" and not "Ritualized Prayer"..

The context around 2238 is treatment to wife or women..
"Guard the blessings (to your wife/family), and the middle/average shalat and uphold for God devoutly"

And 2239 to me is an instruction to walk away or ride away towards a place of security (migrate out) when your life or your family (or wife) life are being threatened.. there are no 'pray' in the verse..

I don't have the Quran in front of me now but..
There are other verse in the Quran which commanded people to do "Shalawat" to the prophet and also description that God and the Angel are "Shalawat"-ing to him. Which gave a strong meaning of "Shalawat" = "Blessing" / "Give Blessing" and not "Praying" or "Worshipping".

Salam / Peace

Peace Jafar,

I actually agree with you for the most part. I also find it odd that an outline for ritual salat would just be tossed into an outline about marriage, and have come to find that in context it seems to mean something a bit different. But I haven't entirely settled on the correct translation as of yet and how to clearly explain it.

For now, if the leading ideology is that it's ritual salat, then I'll attempt to unite on that first and then explore further possible interpretations when I can.

We have a LONG way to go as a community. -\

May peace be with you.

KDC501

Peace youssef4342,

Let's take a look at the verse, as if it said "middle contact prayer", and fit in your interpretation.

2238 Preserve the contact prayers, and the middle contact prayer, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

By YOUR interpretation, 2238 would imply

Preserve the 3 contact prayers, and the middle prayer, and stand devoutly for God.

Does that make sense to you? That's like me saying, "cover your eyes, and also cover your left eye". It's redundant. Allah would not say to preserve your 3 salat, and also preserve the middle of that 3. The fact that all the salat must be preserved, already covers the middle of those salat, if there were one.

This is 2238 in transliteration, with the part in question underlined

Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena

Sura 2238 Can has also been translated as

2238 You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer (salat al wusta) , and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

Regrading the rest of your post I won't bother to argue with you since this topic and this verse has been argued many times on this forum. Personally I believe those who follow 2 daily pray and 5 daily pray or none at all are ALL misguided and are not aware of previous scripture and history. Again it is not uncommon for there to be a middle prayer since this is well established prayer in history for thousands of year long before the Quran even existed!!!

Peace,

Wouldn't the Children of Israel have to believe in the Quran first, in order to follow it? And if it says only 2 salat, then they must do that if they believe it. If they don't believe it, then they can be doing whatever else.

May peace be with you.

What sort of question is this??? How long have you been reading the Quran brother??? Don't you know that this is the religion of Abraham??? The Salat, Zakat, fasting (with a few minor changes) is roughly the SAME religion that has been in practiced for hundreds of years! I see a middle pray in 2238 because I know it has to exist because I read the Bible and I know that it is common pray among the Jews and Christians long before the 21st Century 2 daily pray theory dreamt to exist!!!
Also the causally way God mentions the pray in the Quran doesn't bother me at all because it is not a foreign practice that suddenly came into existence(unlike the two daily theory) but it is a KNOWN practice since the pyramids. So why should I or anyone else (among the students of the Bible) see otherwise????

How many times did God say that People of Book know the truth???

370 O people of the book, why do you reject God's signs while you are bearing witness?
371 O people of the book, why do you dress the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?

447 O you who have received the book(Jews and the Christians), acknowledge what We have sent down authenticating what is with you, before We cast down faces and turn them on their backs or curse them as the people of the Sabbath were cursed. God's will is always done.

2947 Similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the book will acknowledge it.(Jews and the Christians) Also, some of your people will acknowledge it. The only ones who mock Our signs are the ingrates.

The first time I heard of the two daily theory i knew right then that it wouldn't make any sense to me since I know (as well as others who have studied the previous scriptures) that there are only three prays. Not five, not two, just three. It has been so long before the Quran existed and it did not change after it except by those who posses no knowledge or by those who twist the scripture to make a religion of convenience and laziness.

Now i know that people will say "How can you trust the Bible since it has many contradictions??? " . For those who don't know, the Quran says that the Jews and the Christians posses the truth in there scriptures....

543 How can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, containing God's judgment; then they turn away after that. They do not acknowledge.

544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have peacefully surrendered judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God's book, and they were witness over it. So do not revere the people but revere Me; and do not purchase with My signs a cheap price. Whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the ingrates.

547 Let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. Whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.

548 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.

Conclusion If the truth isn't in the Torah and the Injeel (The Bible) then why would God ask them to judge with there books if they isn't any truth in them? ??? And yes the Bible contains contradictions but "under the false parts of the Bible" there is the truth. The Truth is there.

Peace,

Kevin.

Layth

Salam,

I'm probably comming at the tail end of this discussion, but just wanted to point out a couple of things

It makes perfect sence that God asks the believers to preserve the "middle" salat as that is the one that is most likely to be neglected. The reason I say this is because the Fajr and Isha are carried out within a narrow timeframe, making it difficult for a person to miss by getting preoccupied. Whie the "middle", because it is open from noon-dusk, has a much higher probability of being missed as a person will put it off till the last minute (see the example of Solomon who missied the "middle" salat by being preoccupied until the sun was completeley gone).
The salat during the "Juma/gathering/assembly" is the biggest affirmation of a "middle" salat as this gathering could not reasonable take place at dawn or in the night.

Regards,

youssef4342

Peace everyone!
May the lord God resolve our disputes!
I have to mention about Solomon's example! This is because i was going to cite it long before this topic but i thought it meant that he missed the evening prayer, i wasn't sure.
If this indeed is speaking about the middle prayer, then 2238 would really mean
"Guard the prayers; especially the middle prayer..."
(Can anyone find an example where God repeats the words, as in 2238 with salat?)

Also another note, about the previous scriptures, is that God tells us to believe in them, (not neccesarily follow them, because to "each his own" laws/commandments), you cannot believe in something that you deem as corrupt!. God never states that the Torah is corrupted, nor the previous books, instead he states that Jews have "twisted" the words.
The only Jewish book i Know that "TWISTS" the words of God is the "Talmud", which consists of the "sayings" and "Traditions" (Mishna/Gemarrah) (*Mirroring the Hadith & Sunna of the Mohammedans (evidence of Devils system/Scheming?).
*Jesus Warned of these Laws of the traditions of the rabbis because they Went against God's laws, yet the religious chiefs held them as "Divinely inspired". God later affirms of these Jews' Idol worship when he stated that they took their Rabbis/religious leaders as lords beside God in the Quran.
(God even commandeded the Children of Israel to not Add/subtract anything from the law, but they did!)
(There is however, a minority of Jews today who only follow the Tanakh/Hebrew bible, called the Karaites , who follow the Torah by explaining it in context)

Jafar

God never states that the Torah is corrupted, nor the previous books, instead he states that Jews have "twisted" the words.

He did, through prophet Jeremiah...

"How do ye say, We are wise!, We have TORAH YHVH! Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes"
Jeremiah 88

Furthermore.. from the same book by the same prophet..

"For I SPEAK NOT unto your forefathers, NOR COMMANDED THEM in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning BURNT OFFERINGS OR SACRIFICES, But this thing commanded I them, saying, OBEY MY VOICE, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people and WALK YE IN ALL THE WAYS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU, that it may be well unto you. "
Jeremiah 722-23

Read on especially through the following books (Numbers, Leviticus, Deutoronomy, Joshua, Samuel, Judges) and you shall find many 'atrocities' were being performed in the name of God.

Oddly enough, the 'characteristics of the atrocities' within those books are pretty much similar to the 'atrocities' we find in the hadith and sirah, allegedly performed by Muhammad and his friends. such as

Slaughtering of all women and children.
Slaughtering of all adult men, boy children and non-virgin female while spare the life of virgin female to keep them as slave..
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." -Numbers 3118
Assassination
Rape
Stoning
Burning people to death
And many more.. just read on...

I found the "Nevim" part within the Tanakh to be in 'good quality' (such as the book of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Jonah and Daniel)

Salam / Peace

youssef4342

Peace!

I think you misinterpreted!

God states that thwe Torah is Guidance and light in the Quran! Not corrupt as people claim!

Stoning was a punishment back in the OT times!
It is reasonable to think that it was reasonable for God to be harsh amongst the earlier generations to make a point!!! which is to follow his commands! (e.g stoning a man for picking sticks on the sabbath!)

Also, there is justification for the killing and burning and basically the"wiping out" of the inhabitants of the Land that God was going to Give the Children of Israel.
God was punishing/wiping out the native peoples because of their own transgression, by the hands of the children of Israel .

(e.g The Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced Idol worship, child sacrifice(e.g child fire sacrifice to the idol Molech), incest, sodomy, bestiality, prostitution

"...but for the wickedness of these nations that YAHUWAH thy God doth drive them out from before thee.." (Deuteronomy 94-6)
God thus wiped them out, again, because of their own sinful nature, through the Hands of the Children of Israel.

http//www.inplainsite.org/html/was_joshuas_conquest_justified.html

Jafar

Peace!

I think you misinterpreted!

God states that thwe Torah is Guidance and light in the Quran! Not corrupt as people claim!

Stoning was a punishment back in the OT times!
It is reasonable to think that it was reasonable for God to be harsh amongst the earlier generations to make a point!!! which is to follow his commands! (e.g stoning a man for picking sticks on the sabbath!)

Also, there is justification for the killing and burning and basically the"wiping out" of the inhabitants of the Land that God was going to Give the Children of Israel.
God was punishing/wiping out the native peoples because of their own transgression, by the hands of the children of Israel .

(e.g The Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced Idol worship, child sacrifice(e.g child fire sacrifice to the idol Molech), incest, sodomy, bestiality, prostitution

"...but for the wickedness of these nations that YAHUWAH thy God doth drive them out from before thee.." (Deuteronomy 94-6)
God thus wiped them out, again, because of their own sinful nature, through the Hands of the Children of Israel.

http//www.inplainsite.org/html/was_joshuas_conquest_justified.html

Following your way of thinking, the native palestinians has made another 'transgressions' which justify the 'wiping out' from their land by the jews..
Luckily for them; the jews this time around are 'relatively more civilized' than their 'forefathers'; they didn't kill all of surrendered soldiers , the palestinian children, the palestinian women and they didn't put palestinian virgin to be their slave.. Much thanks to of the Geneva convention, international pressure and universal abolishment of slavery practice..

I can see now why the jews and the sunnis are quite similar.... brickwall

For you is your dien to me mine...

Salam / Peace

youssef4342

Pease Jafar!
Please do not be saddened by the injustice, This is all included in God's plans!
God promises the children of Israel's return to their land in the Quran and the bible!

In Joel 32 God states
"I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land." (Divided meaning inhabited the land)

Justice will not go down the drain However!
God Warns the Children of Israel "Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it.

*Thus all these atrocities and blood shed that the Jews/Arabs have cause because of the Land inheritance, God will require it from them (Karma)
*Therefore do not be saddened because this is God's plan! God Prophecies in the Quran that the Children of Israel will be defeated, and the things that they built will be demolished (Quran 177)

GODsubmitter

handshake

http//www.youtube.com/user/WhereIsTruth?gl=CA&hl=en#p/u/200/bRYLX_OrwQ0

Eikonoklastes

Peace Kevin,

Sura 2238 Can has also been translated as

2238 You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer (salat al wusta) , and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

Can you show me the word/phrase in Arabic meaning something along the lines of "especially"?
This still does not solve the problem I explained earlier about locating this "middle contact prayer" in all the prayers of your life.
Furthermore, as Jafar pointed out, it is most likely that this verse is not even referring to salat, therefore "middle" wouldn't make sense in 2 instances. But for now even if we entertain that it is prayer, it still doesn't work in light of the evidence presented.

Regrading the rest of your post I won't bother to argue with you since this topic and this verse has been argued many times on this forum. Personally I believe those who follow 2 daily pray and 5 daily pray or none at all are ALL misguided and are not aware of previous scripture and history. Again it is not uncommon for there to be a middle prayer since this is well established prayer in history for thousands of year long before the Quran even existed!!!

So then you mean to say that the Quran is not fully detailed and sufficient because it relies on external sources outlining the history of the religion?

And those who use the Quran alone to prove that there are only 2 daily salat, are misguided because we do not associate other corrupt books with Allah's preserved Quran?

Please reconsider if you are firm in your belief as a Quran-alone Muslim.

What sort of question is this??? How long have you been reading the Quran brother??? Don't you know that this is the religion of Abraham??? The Salat, Zakat, fasting (with a few minor changes) is roughly the SAME religion that has been in practiced for hundreds of years! I see a middle pray in 2238 because I know it has to exist because I read the Bible and I know that it is common pray among the Jews and Christians long before the 21st Century 2 daily pray theory dreamt to exist!!!
Also the causally way God mentions the pray in the Quran doesn't bother me at all because it is not a foreign practice that suddenly came into existence(unlike the two daily theory) but it is a KNOWN practice since the pyramids. So why should I or anyone else (among the students of the Bible) see otherwise????

I may not have been reading the Quran as long as you, or many others, however I am a firm believer in quality over quantity. You can read the Quran 1000 times and still not see what it is saying if you constantly associate other fallible sources claiming divine guidance with Allah's complete divine Quran.

Let me ask you something. If someone comes up to you and says, "I want to learn about the religion of Abraham!". Where will you point them? Is the Quran not sufficient? The Quran is the religion of Abraham is it's most complete and fully detailed way! Why bring up the corrupted books that have faulty translation and clear corruption/contradiction in trying to explain it. The Quran is fully detailed. Do you not believe this?

Basically, you are saying that the past corrupt books have been saying 3 contact prayers, therefore you must use this to influence any bit of the Quran that MAY have a possibility of leaning towards that explanation. Not to mention ignore clear proof that it is only 2 daily salat when using the Quran alone.

Why don't you also argue that we must degrade females? The OT and NT have degradation of females and it has been done all throughout history as well, and verse 434 in Quran has some type of twisted possibility in meaning "beat women" in it's translation, therefore, since we've been degrading females all throughout history, let's influence the Quran's translation to continue degrading women! See the faulty logic? The whole point of the Quran was to CORRECT the mistakes of the previous people (verse provided below), and to uplift humankind.

The Quran warns us against using preconceived notions and following the steps of our forefathers, yet here you are admitting that you do this.

How many times did God say that People of Book know the truth???

...

Conclusion If the truth isn't in the Torah and the Injeel (The Bible) then why would God ask them to judge with there books if they isn't any truth in them? ??? And yes the Bible contains contradictions but "under the false parts of the Bible" there is the truth. The Truth is there.

I'm not sure what you meant with that last sentence regarding "under the false parts of the Bible". I also don't understand how you can admit there are contradictions in it, yet still feel it is important enough to use in influencing what the Quran should mean. This is the exact same problem hadithists have.

Though the OT and NT are corrupted, if one reads it with an open mind, they will still come to find that there is 1 God, and a hereafter. This is the biggest truth, and most important, and is still apparent in previous books. Therefore, those who follow it can still be Muslims. They can still be monotheists. Though of course they don't have the best guidance in it.

This doesn't mean that every single thing in the previous books is true. The only way you can know what is true in it, is to compare it to what is said in the Quran. Any thing that contradicts or cannot be proven in light of the Quran is false, anything that is true, is already in the complete and fully detailed Quran. Therefore, it eliminates any need to judge with these previous books at all.

548 And unto thee have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community but in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you. Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ.

Here I am using the Quran alone and showing the many points of how it is only 2 daily salat, and majority of the points are being ignored and instead others are arguing against because of what the corrupt OT and NT say. Unless one decides to opt for the Quran alone and realize that there is no point in associating other corrupt books with Allah's preserved text, then this discussion will be fruitless.

May peace be with you.

Eikonoklastes

Peace youssef4342,

Peace everyone!
May the lord God resolve our disputes!
I have to mention about Solomon's example! This is because i was going to cite it long before this topic but i thought it meant that he missed the evening prayer, i wasn't sure.
If this indeed is speaking about the middle prayer, then 2238 would really mean
"Guard the prayers; especially the middle prayer..."
(Can anyone find an example where God repeats the words, as in 2238 with salat?)

Also another note, about the previous scriptures, is that God tells us to believe in them, (not neccesarily follow them, because to "each his own" laws/commandments), you cannot believe in something that you deem as corrupt!. God never states that the Torah is corrupted, nor the previous books, instead he states that Jews have "twisted" the words.
The only Jewish book i Know that "TWISTS" the words of God is the "Talmud", which consists of the "sayings" and "Traditions" (Mishna/Gemarrah) (*Mirroring the Hadith & Sunna of the Mohammedans (evidence of Devils system/Scheming?).
*Jesus Warned of these Laws of the traditions of the rabbis because they Went against God's laws, yet the religious chiefs held them as "Divinely inspired". God later affirms of these Jews' Idol worship when he stated that they took their Rabbis/religious leaders as lords beside God in the Quran.
(God even commandeded the Children of Israel to not Add/subtract anything from the law, but they did!)
(There is however, a minority of Jews today who only follow the Tanakh/Hebrew bible, called the Karaites , who follow the Torah by explaining it in context)

So do you believe that Allah once ordered stoning to death, burning at the stake, circumcision, rape, etc. for all Muslims?

On one hand you say that the religion has been the same since the start, then on the other you say that the OT is still... to be honest I don't even know... preserved? True?

548 And unto thee have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community but in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you. Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ.

If you believe the OT is 100% preserved and true, then you are in GREAT contradiction with the Quran. I really hope I don't have to show you all of the contradictions...

If you do not believe it is 100% true, then you are merely picking what you like/what you think is in line with the Quran, therefore falling into the possibility of being misguided and also undermining Allah's claim that the Quran is sufficient and fully detailed. This is much like what the hadithists are doing.

It's really only one or the other. Here I have used the Quran alone to prove my belief, and majority of the points were simply overlooked because of your attachment to the OT.

It's up to you. Read my response to KDC501 as well. You will never see the truth if you keep associating other words with the sufficient and fully detailed Quran!

May peace be with you.

KDC501

Peace Kevin,

Can you show me the word/phrase in Arabic meaning something along the lines of "especially"?
This still does not solve the problem I explained earlier about locating this "middle contact prayer" in all the prayers of your life.
Furthermore, as Jafar pointed out, it is most likely that this verse is not even referring to salat, therefore "middle" wouldn't make sense in 2 instances. But for now even if we entertain that it is prayer, it still doesn't work in light of the evidence presented.