QA is conservative, Sunnis are liberal
-
Does anyone know where in the Quran it says older scriptures are corrupt? Before you answer, PLEASE note there is a huge difference when Allah tells us people have corrupted his message versus the scripture being corrupt
THE QURAN
"But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed."
259
The context of the verse is "Moses people" this might refers to Torah / Tanakh."Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be of the Book, and they say, It is from God, while it is not from God, and they tell a lie against God whilst they know."
378The context of the verse is "Those Among People Of The Book".. (375)
THE TANAKH Book Of Jeremiah
Interestingly, Quran 259 are inline with these verses taken from the book of Jeremiah within the Tanakh collection.
"How can you say; We are wise ! For we have TORAH YHVH, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has make it a lie"
Jeremiah 88"Thus saith YHVH of hosts, the God of Israel; Put more of your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat their flesh yourselves
For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrificesBut this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. "
Jeremiah 721-24More interestingly, I've met a jewish rabbi who admit that 'the Tanakh are indeed has been tampered', yet according to him it's very difficult now to filter out which one are true or not and the best approach (according to him) is just to present it as it is and let the reader decide by themselves.
Indeed a wise approach...
PETER APPROACH TO TANAKH
Peter reportedly refer to the 'scripture' (in this case it's the Tanakh as the 'gospel'/'new testament' was not yet in existence during his lifetime) in similitude with 'serpent', where the 'contradiction' within are infact 'rejection' of the falsehood / evil disposition within...
Taken from "Homilies of Clementine" Ante-Nicene Fathers collection
"And Simon said "these very Scriptures say at one time that there are many gods, and at another that there is only one; and sometimes that they ought not to be reviled, and at other times that they ought; what conclusion ought we to come to in consequence of this, but that the Scriptures themselves lead us astray? "
And Peter said "They do not lead astray, but convict and bring to light the evil disposition against God which lurks like a serpent in each one. For the Scriptures lie before each one like many divers types. Each one, then, has his own disposition like wax, and examining the Scriptures and finding everything in them, he moulds his idea of God according to his wish, laying upon them, as I said, his own disposition, which is like wax."
http//www.essene.com/ClementineHomilies/Homily%20XVI.html#P5134_1507979
Salam / Peace
-
I might add, one of the key problem is The Tanakh (OT) and The Gospel (NT) are itself is actually a 'collection of books'.
Each book within those volumes need to be judged by itself and not within the whole collection.The same thing might happened if the sunnis (finally) decide to put the Quran and their Hadiths within one volume / collection of books. Which I believe they should if they're consistent with their own doctrine that both the Quran and The Hadiths need to be accepted by their followers.
Salam / Peace
-
THE QURAN
"But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed."
259
The context of the verse is "Moses people" this might refers to Torah / Tanakh."Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be of the Book, and they say, It is from God, while it is not from God, and they tell a lie against God whilst they know."
378Salaam Jafar
If you don't mind I am first addressing the Quran part in this first post.
IMO, those verses you mention show that a part or group of people that believe in the older scriptures have twisted/corrupted the message. There is no indication that the scripture itself is corrupt, therefore leading all believers astray.
Do you concur?
-
THE QURAN
"But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed."
259
The context of the verse is "Moses people" this might refers to Torah / Tanakh."Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be of the Book, and they say, It is from God, while it is not from God, and they tell a lie against God whilst they know."
378The context of the verse is "Those Among People Of The Book".. (375)
THE TANAKH Book Of Jeremiah
Interestingly, Quran 259 are inline with these verses taken from the book of Jeremiah within the Tanakh collection.
"How can you say; We are wise ! For we have TORAH YHVH, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has make it a lie"
Jeremiah 88"Thus saith YHVH of hosts, the God of Israel; Put more of your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat their flesh yourselves
For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrificesBut this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. "
Jeremiah 721-24More interestingly, I've met a jewish rabbi who admit that 'the Tanakh are indeed has been tampered', yet according to him it's very difficult now to filter out which one are true or not and the best approach (according to him) is just to present it as it is and let the reader decide by themselves.
Indeed a wise approach...
PETER APPROACH TO TANAKH
Peter reportedly refer to the 'scripture' (in this case it's the Tanakh as the 'gospel'/'new testament' was not yet in existence during his lifetime) in similitude with 'serpent', where the 'contradiction' within are infact 'rejection' of the falsehood / evil disposition within...
Taken from "Homilies of Clementine" Ante-Nicene Fathers collection
"And Simon said "these very Scriptures say at one time that there are many gods, and at another that there is only one; and sometimes that they ought not to be reviled, and at other times that they ought; what conclusion ought we to come to in consequence of this, but that the Scriptures themselves lead us astray? "
And Peter said "They do not lead astray, but convict and bring to light the evil disposition against God which lurks like a serpent in each one. For the Scriptures lie before each one like many divers types. Each one, then, has his own disposition like wax, and examining the Scriptures and finding everything in them, he moulds his idea of God according to his wish, laying upon them, as I said, his own disposition, which is like wax."
http//www.essene.com/ClementineHomilies/Homily%20XVI.html#P5134_1507979
Salam / Peac
Could the above verses you quoted from the quran also talks about muslims ? Or do you think 'people of the book ' are only non-muslims?
-
Salaam Jafar
If you don't mind I am first addressing the Quran part in this first post.
IMO, those verses you mention show that a part or group of people that believe in the older scriptures have twisted/corrupted the message. There is no indication that the scripture itself is corrupt, therefore leading all believers astray.
Do you concur?
ALSO PLEASE NOTE I am ONLY asking about the New Testament, not the TORAH
-
Could the above verses you quoted from the quran also talks about muslims ? Or do you think 'people of the book ' are only non-muslims?
A very good thought..
But let's get the definition straight
Muslims are shown by attitude/character and not by 'membership of certain sect', muslims are everywhere spread in many sects / social identity / grouping of people. Muslims are not only can be found within sunnis, shiites, ahmadis but could be also within buddhist, taoist, judaist, catholics, orthodox etc..
As thus I don't think 'people of the book' equal 'non-muslims', within 'people of the book' there are muslims and also non-muslim.Now regarding people of the book.
People of the book are people of the book, those who has been given the book..
Which includes (but not limited to)
Judaist, Catholics, Orthodox, Sabeans, Sunnis, Shiites, Ahmadis, Ismailis, Druze etc..The 'warning' that there are people who shall try to 'distort' the book is valid for all 'people of the book'.
Which mean there are Judaist, Catholics, Orthodox, Sabeans, Sunnis, Shiites, Ahmadis, Ismailis, Druze etc.. who have and will try to distort the book.Salam / Peace
-
I don't know, which Hadith Bukhari that is not misleading, I don't know which Hadith Bukhari is true, Abbasid & Ottoman Empire is dead, simple evidence the Hadith they use, cause them to die.
I'm not Kitab Alone, I'm Quran alone, a book, also the Universe and their in, Reciting the statements of Allah, that guides me.
I don't Follow what is unverified, unproven, untested, verified falsehood/misleading statements.
Many Hadith Bukhari verses are similar to some Christian bible verses, and if Sunni sees that, they'll re-Think, re-Judge, about their Religion and They may feel, something is not Right(Bukhari Copying the Bible and the Tanakh maybe.). That's why most Sunni Scholars forbids Sunni Muslim to Read the Bible, or the Authority of Hadith Bukhari be more in Jeopardy.
Matthew 57 ?Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
It doesn't sound wrong to me.Salam / Peace
-
ALSO PLEASE NOTE I am ONLY asking about the New Testament, not the TORAH
I typed a long explanation to this.. but somehow the forum crashes when I click post.. Grrr..
And now I'm too lazy to retype again..
But the short answer is
- I find many wisdoms within the teaching of Jesus as told by the Synoptic Gospel (Matt, Mark and Luke), I have many agreement on what Jesus said on those gospels and it does functioned as revelation to me.
- I have many disagreement with the "Gospel according to John" and I can detect a strong influence of 'mystery religion' and Hellenism within that specific Gospel.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Religion - Is there any mistake within Matt, Mark and Luke? perhaps yes, but it's irrelevant..
Salam / Peace
-
I typed a long explanation to this.. but somehow the forum crashes when I click post.. Grrr..
And now I'm too lazy to retype again..
But the short answer is
- I find many wisdoms within the teaching of Jesus as told by the Synoptic Gospel (Matt, Mark and Luke), I have many agreement on what Jesus said on those gospels and it does functioned as revelation to me.
- I have many disagreement with the "Gospel according to John" and I can detect a strong influence of 'mystery religion' and Hellenism within that specific Gospel.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Religion - Is there any mistake within Matt, Mark and Luke? perhaps yes, but it's irrelevant..
Salam / Peace
LOL! I think the short version is good also!
I agree with you in finding wisdom in older scriptures, especially the bible. The truth of the matter there is absolutely no reference in the Quran that the NT is corrupt. I have done alot of research since posting this thread, slept maybe an hour last night........As a QA I do not find this a problem (accepting NT as a hadith of Jesus, not lack of sleep). Muhammed hadith it is considered as religious info but not divine words, so are the older scriptures.
-
LOL! I think the short version is good also!
I agree with you in finding wisdom in older scriptures, especially the bible. The truth of the matter there is absolutely no reference in the Quran that the NT is corrupt. I have done alot of research since posting this thread, slept maybe an hour last night........As a QA I do not find this a problem (accepting NT as a hadith of Jesus, not lack of sleep). Muhammed hadith it is considered as religious info but not divine words, so are the older scriptures.
Bro Emil,
Actually I was explaining this in my last post... (which I failed to post).. ))
Quran never use the word "New Testament".. it use the word "Enjeel" which perhaps came from "Euangelion", a greek word where Eu=Good Angelion=Message or it can also be "Good News" or "Glad Tidings".
Quran refer to a christian as "Nashara", which refer to a sect called "Nazarenes". (I think there's already a discussion somewhere in this forum on this). The Nazarenes were infact a 'messianic jewish' a.k.a 'jewish christians'. And not the 'catholics', 'orthodox' or 'coptic' christians commonly referred as 'gentile christians'.
The Nazarenes never see Jesus as "bringing a new commandment / testament", yet it was a 'continuation' and a 'firm assertion' of the past commandments and God's promise, plus a 'correction' of the 'common understanding' regarding the commandments.
As such; they continue to follow Mosaic Law (Ten Commandments, Sabbath, No Pork etc..)
"Sabbath was made for men and not men for Sabbath"
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Nevim; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Some infamous quotation from Jesus as an example of what I'm talking above.The NT is a volume of books which contain 4 gospels and other materials.
Again I recommend to not judging the volume, yet each of the individual books within the volume.Another question being popped out might be;
The official NT contains 4 while there are many other version of Gospels which were not included in the official bundle.
As such if there are many gospels, which 'gospel' is it that is being mentioned in the Quran?
Or to further refining the question Which gospel were actually being used by the nazarenes?My best bet it is the "Euangelion according to Mattiyahu" a.k.a "The Gospel According To Matthew", since it is the ONLY gospel which were originally written in Hebrew (allegedly) by Mattiyahu.
And not until 14th century, somebody manage to find the "Hebrew Matthew".
http//www.torahresource.com/Dutillet.htmlNevertheless it doesn't really mean that "Gospel according to Matthew" IS the "Truest" Gospel.
After further investigation there are lot of similarities between 3 gospels (Mark, Matthew Luke) and that's why it's being grouped as "Synoptic".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_GospelsWhich bring up a 'hypothesis' of 'another missing version of the Gospel' called "Q" (due to the lack of better name as the gospel itself are still unknown).
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_sourceThe hypothesis is Luke and Matthew derived the content of their gospel from two sources; Gospel of Mark and 'the missing Gospel'.
Again I say this again t hat I have a lot of problems with "Gospel according to John", it is so Hellenistic...
Summary
- I recommend to not judge the whole volume of NT, yet each of the individual books..
- The volume of books called "NT" most probably does not even exist within the "Nazarenes" communities, most probably they only use "Gospel according to Matthew" in Hebrew.
- Making a reference of "Enjeel" in the Quran as "New Testament Bible" is incorrect.
- Even in the "Gospel according to Matthew" alone I could find a lot of "divine wisdom" being taught within, and that's actually what matter the most.
Salam / Peace
-
Peace everyone!
The problem with the NT is that most of it is actually Not by Jesus, but are infact paul's own experiances etc. Paul was NOT a prophet, and to my knowledge never even meet jesus in the humaninly form.
I Think the Guidance & light (mentioned in the Quran) that comes out of the Gospels is Jesus's Parables & acts, and experiance with the children of Israel. (e.g Love one another, Arrogance leads to being debased, Sinners can repent & reform etc)
Again Jesus was sent with the Gospels, I.e The Good news I.e His Supreme Majesty's Kingdom to come! -
I found this on youtube which I find quite interesting. Dr Naik indirectly recognises the NT by referring to it. It is funny because when I did ask the "hadith Jesus" question on the sunni forum the Joe Doe sunni actually gave a similar answer as dr Naik, but without giving Quranic reference. HOWEVER the "SCHOLARS" started screaming about NT being corrupt, taking away the focus on Quran.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACPDahgIh-0&sns=em -
I found this on youtube which I find quite interesting. Dr Naik indirectly recognises the NT by referring to it. It is funny because when I did ask the "hadith Jesus" question on the sunni forum the Joe Doe sunni actually gave a similar answer as dr Naik, but without giving Quranic reference. HOWEVER the "SCHOLARS" started screaming about NT being corrupt, taking away the focus on Quran.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACPDahgIh-0&sns=emOMG that Zakir idiot just insist on showing his lack of reasoning again and again. First he use the bible to show that muslims follow Jesus but he insists that he does not believe in the Bible because its been corrupted.
I recommend to read his answer to christians about why they should not eat pork http//islamicvoice.com/february.99/zakir.htmNotice where he says The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. It feels no jealousy. And among people who consume pork, the practice of wife swapping and other forms of promiscuous behaviour is common.
As a swedish resident and considering that I was born in Sweden, I find this statement of his incredibly insulting on the behalf of my people. Eating pork is very common in Sweden but NONE of my swedish friends who eat pork practise wife swapping, as this idiot falsly claims.
As I would say again, Zakir Naik is a retarded and hypocritical personality. Dont take his words serious ESPECIALLY NOT when he talks about Christianity.
Peace
-
Notice where he says The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. It feels no jealousy. And among people who consume pork, the practice of wife swapping and other forms of promiscuous behaviour is common.
As a swedish resident and considering that I was born in Sweden, I find this statement of his incredibly insulting on the behalf of my people. Eating pork is very common in Sweden but NONE of my swedish friends who eat pork practise wife swapping, as this idiot falsly claims.
As I would say again, Zakir Naik is a retarded and hypocritical personality. Dont take his words serious ESPECIALLY NOT when he talks about Christianity.
According to Mr Naik, the behavior of those animals that we ate shall influence our behavior as well..
In other words; we can blame those animals that we ate for our behavior.Great... better introduce Mr Naik to Silvio Berlusconi, he can make a great use (read excuse) out of this idea.
Salam / Peace
-
I found this on youtube which I find quite interesting. Dr Naik indirectly recognises the NT by referring to it. It is funny because when I did ask the "hadith Jesus" question on the sunni forum the Joe Doe sunni actually gave a similar answer as dr Naik, but without giving Quranic reference. HOWEVER the "SCHOLARS" started screaming about NT being corrupt, taking away the focus on Quran.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACPDahgIh-0&sns=emIts really an interesting Video. A Great Find.
I'm surprise there's plenty of Sunnis, Follows the Bible, at the same time Reject it!
Quran 349, 616 do not forbid message convey by Jesus, be use by other people, Only the "Bible" forbids it.
-
OMG that Zakir idiot just insist on showing his lack of reasoning again and again. First he use the bible to show that muslims follow Jesus but he insists that he does not believe in the Bible because its been corrupted.
I recommend to read his answer to christians about why they should not eat pork http//islamicvoice.com/february.99/zakir.htmNotice where he says The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. It feels no jealousy. And among people who consume pork, the practice of wife swapping and other forms of promiscuous behaviour is common.
As a swedish resident and considering that I was born in Sweden, I find this statement of his incredibly insulting on the behalf of my people. Eating pork is very common in Sweden but NONE of my swedish friends who eat pork practise wife swapping, as this idiot falsly claims.
As I would say again, Zakir Naik is a retarded and hypocritical personality. Dont take his words serious ESPECIALLY NOT when he talks about Christianity.
Peace
Salaam
Dr Naik goes from high to low, I can't really get a grip on him. He says the most idiotic things and then he says very good things. In case of the hadith Jesus he forgot to mention sura 2191 and 1921 which says profet Jesus is for mankind....
However, check on youtube the QandA he did via satellite after he was not granted a visa to Britain. It is called Oxford something.
If the pig is shameless rotfl
Did you hear when the swine-flu was spreading, the only pig in Afghanistan (kept in a zoo) had to have armed protection to save it from being lynched?
According to Mr Naik, the behavior of those animals that we ate shall influence our behavior as well..
In other words; we can blame those animals that we ate for our behavior.Great... better introduce Mr Naik to Silvio Berlusconi, he can make a great use (read excuse) out of this idea.
Salam / Peace
What animal acts like a 12 year old eventhough it is an adult? I need to know so I can eat it.
-
As a swedish resident and considering that I was born in Sweden, I find this statement of his incredibly insulting on the behalf of my people. Eating pork is very common in Sweden but NONE of my swedish friends who eat pork practise wife swapping, as this idiot falsly claims.
Ah sister come one. You know we run around the forest naked and dance around a giant fellatio symbol >D
"Ah, you wanna do some wife swapping? Wait, gotta eat some falukorv so I don't get jealous."
How to stay monogamous? Eat a swan
How to stay clever? Eat an owl
How to get good eyesight? Eat a zebra.....Wait that only works in Swedish Ze-bra (See-good). -
Ah sister come one. You know we run around the forest naked and dance around a giant fellatio symbol >D
"Ah, you wanna do some wife swapping? Wait, gotta eat some falukorv so I don't get jealous."
How to stay monogamous? Eat a swan
How to stay clever? Eat an owl
How to get good eyesight? Eat a zebra.....Wait that only works in Swedish Ze-bra (See-good).Mycket bra Emil. I just told one of my swedish friend about what Zakir Naik just said and he laughed and said ''Tell mr. Zaik that if eating pork cause wife-swapping in Sweden, than perhaps the muslims in India have husband-swapping(polygyny) because they eat a lot of chicken'' rotfl rotfl
-
Mycket bra Emil. I just told one of my swedish friend about what Zakir Naik just said and he laughed and said ''Tell mr. Zaik that if eating pork cause wife-swapping in Sweden, than perhaps the muslims in India have husband-swapping(polygyny) because they eat a lot of chicken'' rotfl rotfl
I do not accept the Hadith of "infliction of animal behavior by eating them" because I have no Scientific Evidence! ignore