Can we pray for our christian friends?
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931 They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD.
This description fit perfectly with the common sunnis/salafis/wahhabis/shiites and any other sectarians isn't it? (e.g. catholics, orthodox, rabbanic judaism etc..)
Nonetheless.. I continue my good friendship and relations with them.... and send greetings, wishes and pray for them too..
As it's incorrect to fight sectarian behavior with another sectarian behavior....
Salam / Peace
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Peace. Well said Bigmo and Abdul Hadi. Your understandings are more in line with my understanding of the Quran. However sometimes i have to ask and if helps a lot when you can get someone who speaks Arabic and who is willing to say it as it is.
I would alo ask everyone to check out the thread that i posted earlier. The thread is How do we know who are those that God had condemned. Again Arabic speaking brkthers and sisters maybe have an answer.
Thanks
Right. The way the Koran understands Iman and kufr is not the same way as most Muslims or Jews or Christians do. This is because the Koran does not seperate between the prophets. So to say a person is Jewish if his mother is Jewish is not old Testament talk. This is Rabbinic talk. To say that only through Jesus is their salvation is not Gospel talk, but Trinitarian talk. To say a believer is one who believes in the 5 pillars of Islam is not Koranic talk, but sectarian Islam talk.
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Right. The way the Koran understands Iman and kufr is not the same way as most Muslims or Jews or Christians do. This is because the Koran does not seperate between the prophets. So to say a person is Jewish if his mother is Jewish is not old Testament talk. This is Rabbinic talk. To say that only through Jesus is their salvation is not Gospel talk, but Trinitarian talk. To say a believer is one who believes in the 5 pillars of Islam is not Koranic talk, but sectarian Islam talk.
Exactly!
There are THREE groups in mankind, NOT the illusory 300000000000 zillion different sectarian divisions
1 - The foremost Those exclusive in seeking truth & good deeds
1 - The companions of the right hand Following the foremost and seeking truth and doing good deeds but in a more passive fashion
0 - Companions of the left hand No comment!So basically a person is a 1 or a 0. And they can be an active or a passive 1, but as for 0s there is no distinction, it doesn't matter injustice is injustice.
A person can go between these categories whenever they please but there are specific rules. Once you are a companion of the left hand twice there is no turning back (390 amongst others).
Peace -
Peace. I understand that it says not to take Christians as alies and not to be friends with disbelievers but then in 608 says that its ok but only if they are not fighting against you.
608 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them for Allah loveth those who are just.
Now all the professionals I am dealing with, who can and want to help me with things are not Muslims. What if for instance you need to go to court and there are no Muslim solicitors, should you represent your self even if youdont have any clue about how to do it. Should you just go to fourth, represent your self and put faith in God?
I mean does not verse 608 meant that if they don't fight you then you can take them ad allies?Thanks
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Peace,
Why do we judge based on emotions? Just because a Christian (Trinitarian) seems nice, you think you can rationalize that they will go to heaven? This is why we follow the Quran, because God knows how we should live better than we know ourselves. We are speaking English so it is different from what the Arabic Quran says. What GGG said is the truth. What does it say in the Quran about them?
Yusuf Ali Translation
4171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" desist it will be better for you for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.-
They do blaspheme who say "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
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They do blaspheme who say Allah is one of three in a Trinity for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
Are they labeled as Christians? No, these people are polytheists. Therefore, if we go by Quranic English vocabulary, the definition of these people are not Christian. They are like any other polytheist. It's like someone claiming that they are Muslim but believe in a Trinity with Allah, Manaat and Al-Uzzah. How hard is it to understand this?
In the end, whatever they worship and what we worship does not benefit or hurt Allah at all. It is all on our own self. The fact of the matter is that the most important commandment from God is that "There is no other deity but God". That includes, not ascribing partners to him (ie. "Christians". If someone claims they are Christian but do not worship Jesus (ie. Jehovahs Witness) they are better off. Doesn't God state that the only sin that He will not forgive is shirk? Of course if God wanted to He could, but he states that he won't if maintained through death. However, any other sins, if God wants (not that he will), He can forgive. Shirk is worse than murder/adultery/lying/rape/etc., isn't that right? Therefore, a person who does good things but commits shirk and dies (ie. Mother Teresa?) is not in a good position.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should avoid these people and treat them like a disease. All I am saying is speak the truth from the Quran. I also ascribe to the idea that religion is manmade. Quran clearly says that the only way of life (translated as religion) that is acceptable by God is Submission. Does Trinitarian Christians practice Submission? Something to reflect on.
Peace
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The problem with many Muslims (if you would have read the Quran, you'd understand that it is what Allah has called us) is that they prejudge with no knowledge whatsoever (ex you and Jafar). You are very wrong in what you have said anyway. It does not matter, we will both fully be judged and we will see who used to invent and lie.
I have been witnessed for a while that you have a serious problem with your attitude. I would kindly suggest you to show basic manners and respect towards others in this forum. Brother Jafar and brother Bigmo are seniors here on freeminds and our deeply respected brothers. They are much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran than you would ever do, so I wound kindly suggest you to listen and learn instead of attacking and insulting.
Peace.
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Yup.. 100% agree...
Little they realize that
- islam is not a religion or sect
- moslem is attainable through virtues & deeds and not through membership of certain religion or sect.
- there are moslems nearly within every religion or sect.
Salam / Peace
May God bless us with more of your enlightening knowledge brother bravo
Peace
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I have been witnessed for a while that you have a serious problem with your attitude. I would kindly suggest you to show basic manners and respect towards others in this forum. Brother Jafar and brother Bigmo are seniors here on freeminds and our deeply respected brothers. They are much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran than you would ever do, so I wound kindly suggest you to listen and learn instead of attacking and insulting.
Peace.
I think you have a serious problem; you only resgistered last week and yet you have taken it upon yourself to dictate to others who to listen to and behave and you give your verdict as to who is much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran
I would kindly suggest you get your head examined as it's grown a bit too big.
peace -
I think you have a serious problem; you only resgistered last week and yet you have taken it upon yourself to dictate to others who to listen to and behave and you give your verdict as to who is much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran
I would kindly suggest you get your head examined as it's grown a bit too big.
peaceHello IMHO. I have been passive learning and reading freeminders for years although i never debated because I did not considered myself to possess so much knowledge at that time. But now I think that I have learned enough from freeminds now that I can actually engage in debates, hence I made my profile. Do you got any problem with it?
Hey by the way IMHO. You also have serious problem with you attitude just like your good friend Iznagen. You two have been VERY rude to others in this forum. I kindly suggest you two's to stop acting like small children and instead start learning how to converse and debate like grown up adults.
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@MahaI find that using the "ignore" function in the profile helps--on about a dozen or so folks (for me, so far).
Maybe it is for the best that negative attitudes show in certain persons; when someone "outs" themself with discourteous discourse, their arguments are usually (not always) grounded in opinion instead of AQ.
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Why do we judge based on emotions? Just because a Christian (Trinitarian) seems nice, you think you can rationalize that they will go to heaven?
- It's not for us to judge who shall go to heaven.
- The habits of 'judging other people' is a very bad habit, a legacy from sectarianism or specifically the pharisee judaism sect.. A jewish dude 2000 years ago said; 'don't judge lest you yourselves shall also be judged'.
- The notion of only certain member from certain religion (or religions) shall go to 'heaven' is as ridiculous as the notion of only American citizens shall go to heaven and/or only Saudis citizen shall go to heaven.
Quran clearly says that the only way of life (translated as religion) that is acceptable by God is Submission. Does Trinitarian Christians practice Submission? Something to reflect on.
Dien is 'attitude,opinion,judgement' (towards something).
The Quran said the (proper) attitude,opinion,judgement (dien) to / towards God is submit/peacefully and gladly accept (islam)."Let Your will be done, on earth as it is on heaven"
That's the excerpt from the "Lord's prayer" which millions of people commonly labeled as 'christian' said in their daily prayer, as taught by a jewish dude named Iashua about 2000 years ago....
Salam / Peace
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Peace
- It's not for us to judge who shall go to heaven.
- The habits of 'judging other people' is a very bad habit, a legacy from sectarianism or specifically the pharisee judaism sect.. A jewish dude 2000 years ago said; 'don't judge lest you yourselves shall also be judged'.
- The notion of only certain member from certain religion (or religions) shall go to 'heaven' is as ridiculous as the notion of only American citizens shall go to heaven and/or only Saudis citizen shall go to heaven.
I agree with your statements completely. I am saying that people saying that "Trinitarian Christians" are safe from God's punishment is no different than saying Abraham's father is going to heaven. The two ways of belief are the same, shirk. God tells us that He will not forgive it, not me. Yet, people contradict what God says. That in itself is judging.
I am not one to judge. As I mentioned, it is up to God. I am simply reminding everyone not to say things because their emotion leads them to. Don't spread false teachings. Speak from the Quran, not emotion.
Dien is 'attitude,opinion,judgement' (towards something).
The Quran said the (proper) attitude,opinion,judgement (dien) to / towards God is submit/peacefully and gladly accept (islam)."Let Your will be done, on earth as it is on heaven"
That's the excerpt from the "Lord's prayer" which millions of people commonly labeled as 'christian' said in their daily prayer, as taught by a jewish dude named Iashua about 2000 years ago....
Salam / Peace
Yet they associate partners and make partners with God with a mere creation? Christians completely go against the teachings of Christ. They are the Quranic definition of polytheists. Notice that when the Quran speaks of those that worship Jesus, he doesn't say that they are the Nazarenes (translated in English as Christian). It's all a matter of terminology. Today's Christians are not the people that God is talking about in the Quran. It is simply a translation issue.
BTW, you sure Esau taught them the Lords Prayer? You know that there are two different Lord's Prayer right? You also know that according to the latest discoveries, the first "Gospel" wasn't written till about 30 to 40 after his "death". Also, to accept what he supposedly said in the Christian Bible is dangerous, as he contradicts himself since it is not the Word of God but a compilation of many men over a 1000 years.
I also saw that you said that there are Muslims in other religions and sects. I agree with that statement, but they need to follow the fundamental principle of Submission, strict monotheism. Many indigenous beliefs believed in this before exposure to the West, yet Christians came in and destroyed this belief. The very ones that called people kafirs are the primary example of what polytheists are.
Of course, God knows us each individually and knows how we believe. God is the best judge.
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@MahaI find that using the "ignore" function in the profile helps--on about a dozen or so folks (for me, so far).
Maybe it is for the best that negative attitudes show in certain persons; when someone "outs" themself with discourteous discourse, their arguments are usually (not always) grounded in opinion instead of AQ.
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Thanks for your advice, brother.
amuslim
Yet they associate partners and make partners with God with a mere creation? Christians completely go against the teachings of Christ. They are the Quranic definition of polytheists. Notice that when the Quran speaks of those that worship Jesus, he doesn't say that they are the Nazarenes (translated in English as Christian). It's all a matter of terminology. Today's Christians are not the people that God is talking about in the Quran. It is simply a translation issue.
I think you got a very narrow-minded defination of what it means to be a christian. First of all, not all christians believe in the divinity of Jesus. Third thing, if Christians all make partners with God as you claim, Than todays muslims must be in the same category since they make excately the same claims about Muhammad. And yes God is sometimes talking about todays christians, just look at the verse warning them for believeing in the divinity of jesus.
I also saw that you said that there are Muslims in other religions and sects. I agree with that statement, but they need to follow the fundamental principle of Submission, strict monotheism. Many indigenous beliefs believed in this before exposure to the West, yet Christians came in and destroyed this belief. The very ones that called people kafirs are the primary example of what polytheists are.
Let me add there is also kaffirs in every religion and sects, including among todays muslims. And there is no religion today who strictly follows monotheism(but judaism is very close to strict monotheism) and NO the muslim beleif claims to be a strict monotheism religion while it has actually made Muhammad as Gods partner. But there are people who follow a strict monotheism despite of their religion.
So, there are also muslims among the Westernes and the christians.
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Peace Maha
I think you got a very narrow-minded defination of what it means to be a christian. First of all, not all christians believe in the divinity of Jesus. Third thing, if Christians all make partners with God as you claim, Than todays muslims must be in the same category since they make excately the same claims about Muhammad. And yes God is sometimes talking about todays christians, just look at the verse warning them for believeing in the divinity of jesus.
First point you made. If you read what I wrote and understood it, you should not have gotten that assumption. I clearly stated that not all Christians were alike.
Second point. When did Muslims ever say Muhammad was God? This is the claim of Trinitarian Christians, making a creation a partner with God.
Third point. Who exactly is being addressed in the Qur'an when God mentions about the Trinity? You seem to be confusing the usage of the word Christian here. God doesn't say the word Christian at all in the Qur'an. The Nazarenes were a Jewish sect of people that followed Christ's message and never worshiped Jesus. They would have been considered heretics to the Church. Similarly, we Muslims follow the same message that Jesus gave. Majority of modern day Christians do not. They do not follow the fundamental teaching of Jesus despite the clarity of his words in their own man-made book.
Let me add there is also kaffirs in every religion and sects, including among todays muslims. And there is no religion today who strictly follows monotheism(but judaism is very close to strict monotheism) and NO the muslim beleif claims to be a strict monotheism religion while it has actually made Muhammad as Gods partner. But there are people who follow a strict monotheism despite of their religion.
So, there are also muslims among the Westernes and the christians.
Kafir is someone that covers up the truth and disbelieves. I wasn't saying that all people are kafirs but that the European Christians proselytize their faith to indigenous people (many of whom were Submitters already) and forced them to leave their path and follow the polytheistic Christian belief. For example the native american peoples. African peoples, etc.
It is simple. You either believe in the unity of God or you don't. 1+1+1 = 1 is not going to cut it. You can't be a Trinitarian Christian and try and fool people that it is monotheistic. I already gave an example of someone using Muhammad in the same way the Christians use Jesus. It will never be accepted by God. Have you even read the Qur'an? All of what I am saying is not my words, it is from the Qur'an itself.
Peace
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Second point. When did Muslims ever say Muhammad was God?
I already gave an example of someone using Muhammad in the same way the Christians use Jesus. It will never be accepted by God.
The sunnis and shiites (and other Muhammedans group) actually consider Muhammad 'higher' than God.
Although it's 'subtle' and not exactly 'verbose'...Some of the examples are
- In the sirah+hadiths there are many examples of "God" nullified his Judgement and/or act in accordance to Muhammad's wishes. The most infamous story are the 'bargaining for rakaah' process..
- Their comprehension of 'shalawat' as glorifying and adoration (towards Muhammad) and they said that God and His angels also performing 'shalawat' as thus adoration and glorification to Muhammad (which is a twist from Quran verse)
Nevertheless I never judge the sunnis and shiites or any other Muhammedans group as 'forbidden from heaven' or 'shall be cursed to hell'.. And I'm applying the same view to those who worship other (dead) people such as Jesus.
What they're doing is practically the same... dead people worshiping
I refrain myself from doing such gross act.. yet I didn't label them as 'kuffar' or 'cursed to hell' either.. as it's not my place and/or authority to judge...
To me
It's not a problem when somebody worship a stone, as long as he's not enforcing that belief to me OR
Throwing that stone at me!! Now that's a big problem..!!Salam / Peace
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Peace Maha
First point you made. If you read what I wrote and understood it, you should not have gotten that assumption. I clearly stated that not all Christians were alike.
Second point. When did Muslims ever say Muhammad was God? This is the claim of Trinitarian Christians, making a creation a partner with God.
Third point. Who exactly is being addressed in the Qur'an when God mentions about the Trinity? You seem to be confusing the usage of the word Christian here. God doesn't say the word Christian at all in the Qur'an. The Nazarenes were a Jewish sect of people that followed Christ's message and never worshiped Jesus. They would have been considered heretics to the Church. Similarly, we Muslims follow the same message that Jesus gave. Majority of modern day Christians do not. They do not follow the fundamental teaching of Jesus despite the clarity of his words in their own man-made book.
Kafir is someone that covers up the truth and disbelieves. I wasn't saying that all people are kafirs but that the European Christians proselytize their faith to indigenous people (many of whom were Submitters already) and forced them to leave their path and follow the polytheistic Christian belief. For example the native american peoples. African peoples, etc.
It is simple. You either believe in the unity of God or you don't. 1+1+1 = 1 is not going to cut it. You can't be a Trinitarian Christian and try and fool people that it is monotheistic. I already gave an example of someone using Muhammad in the same way the Christians use Jesus. It will never be accepted by God. Have you even read the Qur'an? All of what I am saying is not my words, it is from the Qur'an itself.
Peace
I dont see any quranic references in your words. So no you are talking from your mind, you are not reciting the quran. Have you even read the Quran?
Many muslims have imposed and forced people to accept Islam as well during all their islamic crusades.
Well if you cant be a muslim while believing in the trinity, than you cant be a muslim and believe in the hadiths as well. You seem to limit the belief in God according to your own understanding.
Peace
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The only real difference between the Koran and mainstream Christianity is the Trinity. Islam and Judaism has many differences with the Koran because of the influence of the Talmud and Sunnah.
The Trinity is somewhat of a mystery as nobody has been able to explain it. But there is no real difference between the Koran and unitarian Christians. I think most Christians are confused about it and do not understand it themselves.
We do know this. Whatever you imagine God to be and have an image in your mind of Him is not Him.
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What is true religion?
Strict monotheism (Surah 30.30)
Who are Strict Monotheist, and what are the characteristics of pure worship?They worship only God, And do not put one prophet above another (Deuteronomy 6,4 and Surah 4719, 384,144)
They do not have idols, human or otherwise (Exodus 204, surah 12106, Surah 1620,21 3130, 464,5
They give to the poor, try to do what is right, and ask for forgiveness Nehamiah 917 Surah 3133-135 4106,110 and 2422
Allah, the Arabic word for God refers to these monotheist, his true servants as ??Believers?? nearly 200 times in the Quran
God does no change Malakias 36 Surah 3362
Those who fabricates false prohibitions and attribute them to God are truly wicked
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The problem with many new Koranist who come from a Sunni/Shia background is that they still have many aspects of sectarian Islam in them. They don't understand that it takes some time before the Sunni/Shia influence fades from them. They talk in many ways just like a salafi does. They come from a background where kufr, haram and shirk are used generously and they assume that the Koran sees it that way when in reality it does not.
Salaam Bigmo
You should also mention those who, in their attempt to rid themselves of their sectarian past feel a need to criticise and mock mainstream muslims and to demonstrate the perceived irrelevance of prophet Muhammad to 'liberate' themselves. Freeminders rather than the Qur'an has become their source of guidance, and they engage in endless vain talk, which is frowned upon in the Quran. They think they are scholars and give fatwas about others now. on December 07, 2011, 050359 AM ? You are still doomed to hell
Here is an excerpt form Maha's post above I have been passive learning and reading freeminders for years although i never debated, because I did not considered myself to possess so much knowledge at that time. But now I think that I have learned enough from freeminds now that I can actually engage in debates. His/er posts shows standard of knowledge aquired from freeminds. (Sadly due to such bickering members the free-minds site is becoming more of a gossip corner than a forum for healthy exchange and because of this I'm reluctant to recommend free-minds to seekers.
peace