Road of the Patriarch

Miggo

First I was merely telling you that your argument didnt make much sense towards that sunni - and you should be happy he didnt check your translation.
Therefore it makes little sense when you write this.

I don't care what the Sunnis or the Shias believe, because they DO NOT FOLLOW THE QURAN. It's as simple as that. To them, the Quran is simply eloquent poetry printed in fancy books of caligraphy, to be recited in funerals or over the dead.

I know you dont care. But I guess the sunni you were debating with do care. That is what I was saying. Had the sunni known, that you were asking him where the "sanctuary" in "Ahlul Bayt" were, he would not have given up the discussion so easily

@Miggo

OK. Let's go back to the Free-Minds translation but this time, leaving the term "Al Bayt" as it is, and irrespective of the other errors in their translation.

Take a close look at the following verses, and you tell me what the blue word means

.......

So which BAYT is it talking about?

Bayt means house or home in all of those instances, and not sanctuary a single time.

Now you are asking me WHICH house they are talking about...? Well that of course depends on the context. You quote a lot of verses. Well... the word Bayt is mentioned in other verses too. Does it always mean sanctuary?

Lets pretend to use that translation you like. How should Bayt be translated here (Hint in the translation you like it is translated as home, eventhough its the same word as is translated to sanctuary in other verses)

4.100 Whoever emigrates in the cause of God will find in the earth many spoils and a bounty. And whoever leaves his BAYT emigrating to God and His messenger, then is overcome by death; his recompense has fallen to God, and God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Now is this also the sanctuary of Ahlul Bayt??

8.5 As your Lord made you go out from your BAYT with the truth, but a party from among the believers disliked this.
(translated as home in the translation of your choice)

Look! Yusuf was being seduced in the sanctuary!!

12.25 And the woman, in whose BAYT he was staying, attempted to seduce him away from himself. And she closed the doors and said ?I have prepared myself for you.? He said ?I seek refuge with God, He is my Lord, He has made good my stay; the wicked do not succeed.?

17.93 ?Or that you have a luxurious BAYT , or that you can ascend into the heavens. And we will not believe in your ascension unless you bring for us a book that we can read.? Say ?Glory be to my Lord. Am I anything other than a human messenger!?
(again mysteriously translated to home...)

29.41 The example of those who take allies besides God is like the spider how it makes a BAYT; and the weakest BAYT is the BAYT of the spider, if only they knew.
(one of the bayth is in pluralis, but all are translated to the same singular word home)

And of course. In the verse you quote yourself about the Prophets wifes, the word BAYT is also mentioned in its pluralis form at the start of the verse. But in the start of the verse it means "homes" in the end it means "sanctuary"!!

But lets just stop the examples of this for now. Bayt means home or house. You are right, when God is talking about His Bayt then it is the Bayt of God!! Of course! But when He is talking about someone elses Bayt, then it is NOT the Bayt of God!

The thing this biased translation does is to mistranslate Bayt to sanctuary everytime the translator believes it is the house of God (why not just translate it to home or house as in all other verses? As you just proved, it can be read in the context that its the house of God. Why didnt the translator trust that the reader could see this for himself??).
So house is translated to sanctuary when it is Gods house AND when talking about "the people of the house"
To the unknowing reader this creates the impression that there is a connection between these 2. Oh, they both talk about a sanctuary. It must be the same sanctuary! Ohhh!
The translator of "A monotheist translation" got you to think what he wanted.
Tell me... Why not just translate it to house in all situations? And leave it to the reader to think if there is a connection between "Gods house" "her house", "his house", "your house", "the people of the house" etc. Instead of mistranslating 2 of these examples to sanctuary?? Creating the wrong impression, that the original Quran uses 2 different words!

But Im not done with the surprises. Because in the translation that you like to use, there is one instance where AHL BAYT is not translated to "People of the sanctuary" but as..... "Household".

We are at the time of Moses

28.12 And We forbade him from accepting all the nursing mothers. Then his sister said ?Shall I lead you to a household (AHL BAYT!) that can nurse him for you, and take good care of him??

Why why why why is it not a sanctuary here? Ohh, because it dont make sense of course!

Talk about a biased translation. When we talk about Ibrahims household we mistranslate to "People of the sanctuary", when we talk about Musas household we translate to... household
BECAUSE THATS WHAT IT MEANS!!

cleanfox5982

Now you are asking me WHICH house they are talking about...? Well that of course depends on the context. You quote a lot of verses. Well... the word Bayt is mentioned in other verses too. Does it always mean sanctuary?

Lets pretend to use that translation you like. How should Bayt be translated here (Hint in the translation you like it is translated as home, eventhough its the same word as is translated to sanctuary in other verses)

4.100 Whoever emigrates in the cause of God will find in the earth many spoils and a bounty. And whoever leaves his BAYT emigrating to God and His messenger, then is overcome by death; his recompense has fallen to God, and God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Now is this also the sanctuary of Ahlul Bayt??

8.5 As your Lord made you go out from your BAYT with the truth, but a party from among the believers disliked this.
(translated as home in the translation of your choice)

Look! Yusuf was being seduced in the sanctuary!!

12.25 And the woman, in whose BAYT he was staying, attempted to seduce him away from himself. And she closed the doors and said ?I have prepared myself for you.? He said ?I seek refuge with God, He is my Lord, He has made good my stay; the wicked do not succeed.?

17.93 ?Or that you have a luxurious BAYT , or that you can ascend into the heavens. And we will not believe in your ascension unless you bring for us a book that we can read.? Say ?Glory be to my Lord. Am I anything other than a human messenger!?
(again mysteriously translated to home...)

29.41 The example of those who take allies besides God is like the spider how it makes a BAYT; and the weakest BAYT is the BAYT of the spider, if only they knew.
(one of the bayth is in pluralis, but all are translated to the same singular word home)

And of course. In the verse you quote yourself about the Prophets wifes, the word BAYT is also mentioned in its pluralis form at the start of the verse. But in the start of the verse it means "homes" in the end it means "sanctuary"!!

But lets just stop the examples of this for now. Bayt means home or house. You are right, when God is talking about His Bayt then it is the Bayt of God!! Of course! But when He is talking about someone elses Bayt, then it is NOT the Bayt of God!

The thing this biased translation does is to mistranslate Bayt to sanctuary everytime the translator believes it is the house of God (why not just translate it to home or house as in all other verses? As you just proved, it can be read in the context that its the house of God. Why didnt the translator trust that the reader could see this for himself??).
So house is translated to sanctuary when it is Gods house AND when talking about "the people of the house"
To the unknowing reader this creates the impression that there is a connection between these 2. Oh, they both talk about a sanctuary. It must be the same sanctuary! Ohhh!
The translator of "A monotheist translation" got you to think what he wanted.
Tell me... Why not just translate it to house in all situations? And leave it to the reader to think if there is a connection between "Gods house" "her house", "his house", "your house", "the people of the house" etc. Instead of mistranslating 2 of these examples to sanctuary?? Creating the wrong impression, that the original Quran uses 2 different words!

But Im not done with the surprises. Because in the translation that you like to use, there is one instance where AHL BAYT is not translated to "People of the sanctuary" but as..... "Household".

We are at the time of Moses

28.12 And We forbade him from accepting all the nursing mothers. Then his sister said ?Shall I lead you to a household (AHL BAYT!) that can nurse him for you, and take good care of him??

Why why why why is it not a sanctuary here? Ohh, because it dont make sense of course!

Talk about a biased translation. When we talk about Ibrahims household we mistranslate to "People of the sanctuary", when we talk about Musas household we translate to... household
BECAUSE THATS WHAT IT MEANS!!

There is a big big difference between the word " Bayt " that you did bring many verses with it , and between the word "Al-Bayt" that member Pazuzu bring previously , what is the difference

As you can see the word " Bayt " in all the verses you mentioned is without the definite article "AL " , in the other hand the word "Al-Bayt" in all the verses member Pazuzu mentioned is with the definite article "AL ", is it a coincidence!!! ?? , surely not

the verses that are with the word "Al-Bayt" having the definite article "AL " in the beginning is simply pointing to a definite known place , this place is definite and known to all the community with a definite known purpose "Al-Bayt" is not an ordinary "Bayt " like the one you mentioned this is why the word pointing to it is having the definite article . "AL " in its beginning.

Salam.

Miggo

Salam Alaykum Alkitab,

As you can see the word " Bayt " in all the verses you mentioned is without the definite article "AL " , in the other hand the word "Al-Bayt" in all the verses member Pazuzu mentioned is with the definite article "AL ",

Not true. I wont go through every verse seeing which is written with an "al", and which is not (since it doesnt mean what you claim it mean anyway). But just to give one example the word bayt is written without "al" in the second occurence in 2.125 (quoted by Pazuzu), but still refers to God's house.

is it a coincidence!!! ?? , surely not

Of course the adding of "al" is not a coincidence. It brings the meaning of making a word definite. However this does not mean that everytime bayt is written in its definite form it refers to the SAME bayt.
Its just like putting "the" in front of a word in english. However we don't mean the SAME house everytime we talk about "the house" in english

Will give you some basic arabic teaching here
Bayt = A house
Al-Bayt = The house

So if we talk about

a house belonging to a man
a house belonging to a woman
a house belonging to God
= it will be Bayt and not al-Bayt

But if we talk about

the house belonging to a man
the house belonging to a woman
the house belonging to God
= it will be al-Bayt.

As you can see, whether or not the house belongs to God does not affect whether we write it with al or not. The grammatical context does.

However what you claim is that
bayt = house
al-bayt = sanctuary
= and thats just wrong! You are not even close.

It would be the same as claiming that the first "house" in these sentences is a normal house, while the second is refering to the house of God "Peter had a house. The house was huge". Thats basically what you just claimed.

Adding "al" to a word simply makes it definite, it does not change its meaning any other way.

Not sure I see the relevance of this very basic grammatical discussion. Ahlul Bayt still means household, and it doesnt mean that there is a sanctuary close to the people it refers to.

tlihawa

Salam,
I have another definition about bayt. I'm not good enough on arabic, so I just rely on the existing translations. I'm aware about the importance of arabic grammar, but sometimes, I need to do something more than that. I mean the understanding of the big picture.

Here is my understanding about bayt, and hajj as well.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603590.msg293981#msg293981

peace

Ashraf

However what you claim is that
bayt = house
al-bayt = sanctuary
= and thats just wrong! You are not even close.

It would be the same as claiming that the first "house" in these sentences is a normal house, while the second is refering to the house of God "Peter had a house. The house was huge". Thats basically what you just claimed.

Adding "al" to a word simply makes it definite, it does not change its meaning any other way.

Not sure I see the relevance of this very basic grammatical discussion. Ahlul Bayt still means household, and it doesnt mean that there is a sanctuary close to the people it refers to.

Dear Minggo,

Let me share something. I use to have a difficulty before while trying to understand al-bayt al-haram.

BAYT have multiple meaning IN CONTEXT such as a house, home, resident, residential area, sanctuary, organization, institution or settlement.

Other than a typical "house" meaning examples are

BAYT AL-MAL refer to office, organization or institution that distribute financial assistance.
BAYT AL-MUQADDAS or BAYT AL-LAHM (Bethlehem) refer to settlement or cities in Palestine.
BAYT AL-FAQIH refer to a famous market in Yemen.

IMHO, to what i understand, al-quran provide LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE about certain SOCIO CULTURAL LINGUISTIC usage that can pinpoint the LOCALITY of the place where the quran was originally revealed.

The usage of BAYT which refer to SANCTUARY or SETTLEMENT was famous in the region of SOUTH ARABIA. The same word usage may not be the culture in CENTRAL ARABIA (where Mekkah lies now).

You can check multitude of settlement areas refered to as BAYT in SOUTH ARABIA in GPS coordinate here
http//www.tageo.com/index-e-ym-v-08.htm

The usage of BAYT which refer to SETTLEMENT or SANCTUARY carry a unique SOCIO CULTURAL identity of certain community that provide us a "CLUE" where quran was originally revealed.

Another regional localities that use BAYT to refer as settlement, is PALESTINE/ISRAEL. However there is slight spelling change because of so called "hebrew" pronounciation. The spelling are either BEIT or BETH. (there are many places by name of "Bethlehem" in USA too)

You can go to wikipedia and search "BEIT ISRAEL" and the search result will display many settlement areas by name of BEIT. However the number of places with word BEIT in ISRAEL is not that extensive as the same usage in SOUTH ARABIA.

This is sort of linguistic evidence that provide us an understanding about where the word BEIT was originally from, thus it is one of the evidence taken by the historian over the migration path theory of SOUTH "semitic" to NORTHERN "semitic" flow.

BAYT AL HARAM is a civilized inhabitable settlement for mankind established by Prophet Ibrahim in SOUTH ARABIA, thus it is not a UN-INHABITABLE small cube without windows as promoted by pagan culture (which we cannot even call it a house).

Peace.

naveed

The information posted in this lengthy article did not consider the following and therefore is invalid.

The city of Makkah is mentioned by name in Quran in 4824 and the next Ayah 4825 mentions Masjid Al Haram. The first Ayah of the same Surah mentions which is pointing to the Prophet Muhammad (AS) conquering Makkah in the overall context of the Surah specially 4824-25.

4824
And it is He who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them within Makkah after He caused you to overcome them. And ever is Allah of what you do, Seeing.
4825
They are the ones who disbelieved and obstructed you from al-Masjid al-Haram while the offering was prevented from reaching its place of sacrifice. And if not for believing men and believing women whom you did not know - that you might trample them and there would befall you because of them dishonor without knowledge. That Allah might admit to His mercy whom He willed. If they had been apart , We would have punished those who disbelieved among them with painful punishment

roshan_m

Salaam,

I know that this topic is a bit old but it is certainly worth reviving it. It is a great analysis done with critical mind, I myself verified few things and although I am tend to agree with many analysis, too many questions remain unanswered and I wouuld be very grateful if Pazuzu could address them

Still, this research doesnt really say where is the Baka, any indications on the old maps would help, linguistic, ethnographic analysis, could anyone help? Up until now I tend to believe that it is in Jerusalem, although I am open to logical and convincing argument which would show otherwise
Horticultural clues for the city of peace, Surah at Tin

Srat al-Tn (Arabic , The Fig, The Figtree) is the 95th sura of the Qur'an with 8 ayat.

Translation

(I Swear) By the fig and (by) the olive (1)

And Mount Sinai (it says Sineen) (2)

And this secure land (what land, does it say Baka/Dar us Salam or what?), (3)

We have certainly created man (and woman) in the best of stature; (4)

Then We returned (him/her) to the lowest of the lowest, (5)

Except those who believe (in the oneness of Allah) and do righteous deeds, for they will have a reward uninterrupted. (6)

So what yet causes you to deny the Recompense? (7)

Is not Allah the most just of judges? (8

My understanding of this surah is that figs and olives can be a very important clue to understand where this secure land or Baka was
Now, according to Wikipedia (I know what you're going to say but I'm not a horticulturist so I have no idea what are more reliable surces to study the origin of these two species)

'The edible fig is one of the first plants that was cultivated by humans. Nine subfossil figs of a parthenocarpic (and therefore sterile) type dating to about 9400?9200 BC were found in the early Neolithic village Gilgal I (in the Jordan Valley, 13 km north of Jericho). The find predates the domestication of wheat, barley, and legumes, and may thus be the first known instance of agriculture' http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_fig#History

and olive tree
'The edible olive has been cultivated for at least 5,000 to 6,000 years, with the most ancient evidence of olive cultivation having been found in Syria, Israel and Crete.The olive tree is native to the Mediterranean region and Western Asia, and spread to nearby countries from there.' http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive#Prehistory

What do you think about this approach, archeologist are using the carbon method to date the fossils and I tend to believe that it might be more or less correct? How about Yemen? As far as I know it was never the ancient habitat of olive and fig, it used to be mediterranean region??

Pazuzu, could you please provide me with the links, if any, to your research about the Mother of the Languages and about origin of Hebrew, I've done degree in african linguistics and to me it's really fascinating to analyse what is the origin of languages, I will appreciate it a lot.

Great work and looking forward to your response) sun

Peace
M.

GODsubmitter

Salaam,

I know that this topic is a bit old but it is certainly worth reviving it. It is a great analysis done with critical mind, I myself verified few things and although I am tend to agree with many analysis, too many questions remain unanswered and I wouuld be very grateful if Pazuzu could address them

Still, this research doesnt really say where is the Baka, any indications on the old maps would help, linguistic, ethnographic analysis, could anyone help? Up until now I tend to believe that it is in Jerusalem, although I am open to logical and convincing argument which would show otherwise
Horticultural clues for the city of peace, Surah at Tin

Srat al-Tn (Arabic , The Fig, The Figtree) is the 95th sura of the Qur'an with 8 ayat.

Translation

(I Swear) By the fig and (by) the olive (1)

And Mount Sinai (it says Sineen) (2)

And this secure land (what land, does it say Baka/Dar us Salam or what?), (3)

We have certainly created man (and woman) in the best of stature; (4)

Then We returned (him/her) to the lowest of the lowest, (5)

Except those who believe (in the oneness of Allah) and do righteous deeds, for they will have a reward uninterrupted. (6)

So what yet causes you to deny the Recompense? (7)

Is not Allah the most just of judges? (8

My understanding of this surah is that figs and olives can be a very important clue to understand where this secure land or Baka was
Now, according to Wikipedia (I know what you're going to say but I'm not a horticulturist so I have no idea what are more reliable surces to study the origin of these two species)

'The edible fig is one of the first plants that was cultivated by humans. Nine subfossil figs of a parthenocarpic (and therefore sterile) type dating to about 9400?9200 BC were found in the early Neolithic village Gilgal I (in the Jordan Valley, 13 km north of Jericho). The find predates the domestication of wheat, barley, and legumes, and may thus be the first known instance of agriculture' http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_fig#History

and olive tree
'The edible olive has been cultivated for at least 5,000 to 6,000 years, with the most ancient evidence of olive cultivation having been found in Syria, Israel and Crete.The olive tree is native to the Mediterranean region and Western Asia, and spread to nearby countries from there.' http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive#Prehistory

What do you think about this approach, archeologist are using the carbon method to date the fossils and I tend to believe that it might be more or less correct? How about Yemen? As far as I know it was never the ancient habitat of olive and fig, it used to be mediterranean region??

Pazuzu, could you please provide me with the links, if any, to your research about the Mother of the Languages and about origin of Hebrew, I've done degree in african linguistics and to me it's really fascinating to analyse what is the origin of languages, I will appreciate it a lot.

Great work and looking forward to your response sun

Peace
M.

Thank you for a very good post, I add my questions, too.

Of course Baka is Jerusalem, and I like your information about the olive tree.

Peace.

Cana2010

Peace evryone
I'm sorry for my english. I'm from switzerland. I just want to share an interesting link www.koranlitranslateandtheconspiracy.com there's an other theory for the location of the holy land. Look at the topic Mekka is not Bakka ( pdf ).

virtueorvice

Salaam,

I know that this topic is a bit old but it is certainly worth reviving it. It is a great analysis done with critical mind, I myself verified few things and although I am tend to agree with many analysis, too many questions remain unanswered and I wouuld be very grateful if Pazuzu could address them

Still, this research doesnt really say where is the Baka, any indications on the old maps would help, linguistic, ethnographic analysis, could anyone help? Up until now I tend to believe that it is in Jerusalem, although I am open to logical and convincing argument which would show otherwise
Horticultural clues for the city of peace, Surah at Tin

Srat al-Tn (Arabic , The Fig, The Figtree) is the 95th sura of the Qur'an with 8 ayat.

Translation

(I Swear) By the fig and (by) the olive (1)

And Mount Sinai (it says Sineen) (2)

And this secure land (what land, does it say Baka/Dar us Salam or what?), (3)

We have certainly created man (and woman) in the best of stature; (4)

Then We returned (him/her) to the lowest of the lowest, (5)

Except those who believe (in the oneness of Allah) and do righteous deeds, for they will have a reward uninterrupted. (6)

So what yet causes you to deny the Recompense? (7)

Is not Allah the most just of judges? (8

My understanding of this surah is that figs and olives can be a very important clue to understand where this secure land or Baka was
Now, according to Wikipedia (I know what you're going to say but I'm not a horticulturist so I have no idea what are more reliable surces to study the origin of these two species)

'The edible fig is one of the first plants that was cultivated by humans. Nine subfossil figs of a parthenocarpic (and therefore sterile) type dating to about 94009200 BC were found in the early Neolithic village Gilgal I (in the Jordan Valley, 13 km north of Jericho). The find predates the domestication of wheat, barley, and legumes, and may thus be the first known instance of agriculture' http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_fig#History

and olive tree
'The edible olive has been cultivated for at least 5,000 to 6,000 years, with the most ancient evidence of olive cultivation having been found in Syria, Israel and Crete.The olive tree is native to the Mediterranean region and Western Asia, and spread to nearby countries from there.' http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive#Prehistory

What do you think about this approach, archeologist are using the carbon method to date the fossils and I tend to believe that it might be more or less correct? How about Yemen? As far as I know it was never the ancient habitat of olive and fig, it used to be mediterranean region??

Pazuzu, could you please provide me with the links, if any, to your research about the Mother of the Languages and about origin of Hebrew, I've done degree in african linguistics and to me it's really fascinating to analyse what is the origin of languages, I will appreciate it a lot.

Great work and looking forward to your response sun

Peace
M.

Salam,

why don't you guys trouble yourself and read the three books to get the idea?!

ARABIA The Untold Story
Book 1 The Search for Pharaoh
http//www.scribd.com/doc/132840113/Arabia-The-Untold-Story-Book-1-Search-for-Pharaoh

ARABIA The Untold Story
Book 2 Road of the Patriarch
http//www.scribd.com/doc/132844965/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Book-2-Road-of-the-Patriarch

ARABIA The Untold Story
Book 3 Israel and Sheba
http//www.scribd.com/doc/159441825/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Israel-and-Sheba

The two prominent links in this research are Linguistics and Archeological Evidences!

There are also books written by Israeli scholars that suggest the Kingdom of David and Solomon is a myth because the archeological evidence found in Israel is scant and doesn't allude to the presence of a mighty kingdom there!

I believe many guys who post on this forum just have to educate themselves before posting and wasting space and time!

Zulf

I also strongly recommend people to read these three books. They contains some very interesting, sound and solid information, and facts. The books are based on facts, and then we can all draw our conclusions. There is no need to expect final answers. It is enough to find out what can NOT be true or reasonable.

Anyone who finds an interest in this topic should read the books, and if someone doesn't feel like reading them, I don't think they're that serious about the topic.

Peace
sun

roshan_m

I believe many guys who post on this forum just have to educate themselves before posting and wasting space and time!

Salaam to all,

I believe many guys who post on this forum and apparently consider themselves as the most knowledgeable in the universe just have to educate themselves how to be more patient and less arogant with others who might have happened to only recently discovered things and have a lot of questions about them. Seems that the latter forgot the time when they used to be confused and following conjencture!!

Anyways, thanks virtueorvice man for wasting your time to provide the links to the books, at least you let me to save mine P >D

I also strongly recommend people to read these three books. They contains some very interesting, sound and solid information, and facts. The books are based on facts, and then we can all draw our conclusions. There is no need to expect final answers. It is enough to find out what can NOT be true or reasonable.

Anyone who finds an interest in this topic should read the books, and if someone doesn't feel like reading them, I don't think they're that serious about the topic.

Peace
sun

Thank you zulf for the recommendation, I only yesterday learned about the existence of these books and am very excited to read them, such a feast for the intellect to have on a table eat

Peace evryone
I'm sorry for my english. I'm from switzerland. I just want to share an interesting link www.koranlitranslateandtheconspiracy.com there's an other theory for the location of the holy land. Look at the topic Mekka is not Bakka ( pdf ).

Thanks cana2010 for the link, I happened to read the document already some time ago, although the rejection of mekka made sense to me, their proposal that it is the Sinai mountain didn't, so I kept on searching until now. Will see where it goes from there.

God bless you all
M.

virtueorvice

I believe many guys who post on this forum and apparently consider themselves as the most knowledgeable in the universe just have to educate themselves how to be more patient and less arogant with others who might have happened to only recently discovered things and have a lot of questions about them. Seems that the latter forgot the time when they used to be confused and following conjencture!!

Salam,

I don't claim that I am a knowledgeable person.

But i have to let you know that before posting i went through all the posts by Pazuzu, trying to read them one by one. In addition I have studied all the three books mentioned above, and the reason i joined this forum was to know more about Pazuzu and their research.

Anyway, not every person has the same tactics and strategies!

By wasting time and space I was mentioning the amount of few precious posts that get lost among so many unrelated, unimportant and futile posts by many others!

roshan_m

By wasting time and space I was mentioning the amount of few precious posts that get lost among so many unrelated, unimportant and futile posts by many others!

Salaam,

Also I wanted to let you knowt that I have read carefully ALL the posts on this thread and have considered asking the questions which I did, being aware that the thread is slightly inactive. The main point of my post were

the analysis of horticulture (case study of olive and fig tree) in relation to the proposed by Pazuzu theory. After 2 days of research on his posts I am on the 15th page of his posts and yet still didn't find much analysis about those two trees apart from few mentions that they existed in Yemen without much references.
Question of Bakka I think I found more or less convincing answer here
request for more references on lingistics and the Theory of the Mother of Languages. As i have said, I am very interested with this topic and done some proper research on the roots of many languages of the world and their similarity to roots in Arabic and other semitic languages and I believe that I also could contribute to the discussion very valuable points if someone could be willing to hear my feedback. I thought that it would beatifully compliment pazuzu's research, but never mind if you claim that my posts are irrelevant, unimportant and futile!

Peace
M.

virtueorvice

Salaam,

Also I wanted to let you knowt that I have read carefully ALL the posts on this thread and have considered asking the questions which I did, being aware that the thread is slightly inactive. The main point of my post were

the analysis of horticulture (case study of olive and fig tree) in relation to the proposed by Pazuzu theory. After 2 days of research on his posts I am on the 15th page of his posts and yet still didn't find much analysis about those two trees apart from few mentions that they existed in Yemen without much references.
Question of Bakka I think I found more or less convincing answer here
request for more references on lingistics and the Theory of the Mother of Languages. As i have said, I am very interested with this topic and done some proper research on the roots of many languages of the world and their similarity to roots in Arabic and other semitic languages and I believe that I also could contribute to the discussion very valuable points if someone could be willing to hear my feedback. I thought that it would beatifully compliment pazuzu's research, but never mind if you claim that my posts are irrelevant, unimportant and futile!

Peace
M.

The valleys of Aseer and Yemen have also been known to harbor breeding grounds for locusts, up until not too long ago. (So when you think of the Old Testament stories speaking of locusts and famine which plagued the land of Msrim, you know where to look). It is also the region that sees the most rainfall in all of Arabia, both in winter and in summer. It is a land known for its wooded mountains (Tr), on which trees of many varieties grow, including Junipers, Lote trees Cedars, Acacia, Bramble, and Cyprus trees. Its mountain slopes have been made into stepped terraces ideal for agriculture, for over 4000 years, and are among the most fertile regions in the Middle East. Figs, olives, dates, grapes, pomegranates and a wide variety of nuts and seeds are grown there until today. The honey of Yemen (the legendary Cedar Honey) is greatly prized globally, and considered one of the finest brands of honey in the world. It is a land known for its rich livestock grazing grounds as well as for its mineral resources of iron, gold, and copper, some of whose reserves remain untapped. - The Road of The Patriarch

The advocates of the Palestinian r theory actually thought that the Qurn supported their argument, specifically in the following passage {And a tree which emerges from r Seen; it grows with oil and is a relish for those who eat}. Their argument is that olives do not - nor did they ever - grow on the so-called Sinai Peninsula, which means that the Egyptian r theory clearly contradicts the Qurn. Whereas, on the other hand, the Blessed Land (al-ar al-mubraka) - which they automatically assumed was Palestine - had plenty of olive trees all year round. In fact, the mountain in question, which overlooks Jerusalem, is called the Mount of Olives, and its peak is around 850 meters above sea level. Their conclusion was that r Seen is in fact the Mount of Olives.

What the proponents of the Mount of Olives didnt realize is that they had fallen under the influence of an old and fruitless Jewish debate regarding the true location of Mount Sinai, a debate that is still raging until today. In fact, some Jewish sects firmly believe that the Mount of Olives is Mount Sinai, where the Lord spoke to Msa. A more recent theory among Biblical scholars and academics has even placed Mount Sinai in the far north of Saudi Arabia, claiming that it is none other than the famous Jabal al-Lawz, a peculiar-looking mountain with a blackened peak, located near the city of Tabk, not far from the Jordanian border. Still, others have claimed that Mount Sinai is somewhere in the Negev desert! -Search for Pharaoh

The Books II and III are filled with place names the similarity between the names cited in Arabian Poetry and Geographical Books with the names in the Old Testament!

As far as I know, Bakkah and Makkah will be tackled in the upcoming books... anyway, I hope Pazuzu will shed more light!

Also you can see The Queen of Sheba and Biblical Scholarship by Bernard Leeman http//www.scribd.com/doc/86438965/2009-Queen-of-Sheba-and-Biblical-Scholarship

You might also be interested in reading Kamal Salibi's books if you can find them!

huruf

I think that to pick a place just on the fig and the olive is to hazardous. Those species will grow anywhere where the climate is right and there is enough water. So, in a quite wide lattitude range. To think without proper verification that in the whole of the Arabian peninsula there could not be any fig or olives is too daring for my taste.

Even, classical Mekka, how can we be sure there weren't plenty of those?
If there was water, the climate is right. And there was water, otherwise there could no be habitation.

Salaam

hafeez_kazi

Peace all

The following are verses from the Quran which proves that the present MECCA in Saudi Arabia is not the Mecca of the Quran

And assuredly We have destroyed the CITIES/TOWNS AROUND YOU, and We have variously propounded our signs, that haply they might return 4627

What is the meaning of AROUND YOU (MECCA)

See the map of Mecca and find out how many villages/towns/cities were around it. Were there any TOWNS around MECCA destroyed by Allah? Can the above statement be validated by history and archaeology of Mecca? You won't find a single place being destroyed by Allah around MECCA.

Is it not a WARNING for them (to observe) how many generations We destroyed before them, amid whose DWELLING places they do WALK? Lo! Therein verily are Signs! Will they not then heed? 3226

Is it not a WARNING to such men (to call to mind) how many generations before them We destroyed, in whose DWELLINGS they do WALK? Verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding 20128

Is there any archaeological proof that the people of Mecca were walking in the DWELLINGS wich was destroyed by Allah before? Was MECCA or around MECCA destroyed by Allah?

And indeed they have come upon the town (town of LOUT, supposed to be in Jordan, some 1400 kms away from Mecca) whereon was rained the fatal rain. Can it be that they have not seen it? Nay, but they hope for no resurrection 2540

The people of Mecca saw the ruins of the people of LUT. How did the people of Mecca saw the ruins of Lut when it was under the DEAD SEA) If Jordan is the destination of the people of Lout then where should be the location of the following prophets

"And O my people! let not my dissent (from you) cause you to sin, lest ye suffer a fate similar to that of the people of Noah or of Hud or of Salih, nor are the people of Lut far off from you 1189

Prophet Shuaib proclaimed to his people that the people of Noah, Hud, Salih and Lut are NOT FAR AWAY FROM YOU and this means that the people of Shuaib were the successors to these people and knew the stories of the said prophets because their dwelling place was not far away from each other. If Lut was in Jordan then the rest of the prophets should also be in Jordan but according to the verses of the Quran and the historical data available there is no doubt that all these prophets were never in Jordan but old Yemen.

And surely (the town of Lout) it is on a road established /that still abides 1576

So We took retribution from them (Lut and Shuaib), and indeed, both are on a clear highway 1579

If the town of Lout is under the Dead Sea in Jordan, then why Allah is saying that it is on a road established and on a highway?

You pass by {their habitations (of Lout)} (IN JORDAN) in the morning and by night will ye not understand 37137/138

Is it possible to see the ruined town of Lout in the morning and at night while Jordan is located at a distance of 1400 kms from Mecca?

And ye dwell in the dwellings of those who had wronged themselves and it had become manifest unto you in what wise We had dealt with them, and We had propounded for you similitudes. 1445

In whose dwellings the people of Mecca were dwelling? Of Noah, Hud, Salih,or Shuaib? TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA it was MANIFEST in what way Allah dealt with the prior people. Is the verse applicable to the people of Mecca.

The people of Mecca nor the Prophet knew about the previous prophets and people

Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous 1149

We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an before this, thou too was among those who knew it not. 123

Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots 12102

We relate to you such accounts of earlier towns some of them are still standing; while others have ceased to exist; 11100

And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers 11120

Thus do We relate to thee some stories of what happened before for We have sent thee a Message from Our own Presence 2099

The prophet and his people were unaware of the stories of the people and the messengers of the past and it is Allah who is relating the prophet their stories through Quran and in the same Quran the above fabricated story of Abraham, his wife Hajar, the Zam Zam is not mentioned. The absence of the story in the Quran, the prophet and his people?s unawareness of the stories of the past messengers and its people are a clear indication that the above story is 100% fabricated. The truth is that Abraham never put his foot on the soil of Mecca but somewhere in Yemen. We find the story of Abraham arguing with his father, praying for his father?s forgiveness, Abraham breaking the idols, Abraham being thrown into the fire, Abraham migrating with Lout, Abraham pleading for Lout?s people, Abraham settling his SONS in a valley, Abraham raising the foundation of the Kaaba (traditional translation) but what is surprising is that the story which is the foundation of Islam is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. The Quran says that the prophet was unaware of the stories of the past and the above story of Abraham is also not mentioned in the Quran, but the pro hadithers say that the above story was related by the prophet and thus by proclaiming this, they are contradicting the statement of the Quran. Anything that is not mentioned in the Quran should be considered as a conjecture and should be discarded.

And (the tribes of) A'ad and Thamud! (Their fate) is manifest unto you from their (ruined and deserted) dwellings. Satan made their deeds seem fair unto them and so debarred them rom the Way, though they were keen observers 2938

The ruined dwellings of Aad and Thamud were manifest to the people of the First House (MECCA/KAABA) but unfortunately these towns were located in YEMEN.

That is from the stories of the Cities (of Noah, Hud, Salih, Lout, Shuaib, Moses) which We recount unto thee of them some are standing and some mown down 11100

Some of the above towns did exist during the period of the prophet while some were mown by the pass of the time.

The above verses disqualifies Mecca / Kaaba as the claimant of the FIRST HOUSE

For we are going to bring down on the people of this township (LOUT) a Punishment from heaven, because they have been wickedly rebellious And assuredly We have left thereof MANIFEST SIGN for a people who reflect. 2934/35

So THOSE ARE THEIR HOUSES desolate because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a SIGN for people who know2752

The RUINS of the previously destroyed DWELLINGS were the manifest SIGN for the current inhabitants

Do you find such HOUSES around Mecca / Kaaba?

IF YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THE ABOVE VERSES ARE REVEALED IN THE CONTEXT OF SAUDI MECCA THEN GO AHEAD AND IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THEN THINK OVER IT.

I BELIEVE THAT THE ABOVE VERSES AND DISCOVERY OF THE TOWN OF AAD'S PEOPLE (IRAM /UBAR) NEAR OMAN / YEMEN BORDER AND SURAH AHQAF IS A POINTER TOWARDS YEMEN