Its impossible to have a healthy discussion with sectarians!!

[Maha]

Jafar

Yup.. that's #1 criteria for sectarians..
And it's not only happening in Sunniism or Shiaism but commonly found within Catholicism and Orthodox Christianism as well. The notion of 'you should join my religion unless you shall go to hell' were being started by them anyway, around 3-4th century. The sunnis and shiites just copied the same concept.

Thus the joke

A Hindu man dies and goes to heaven..
When he gets there, the attendant says,
Welcome!!, you'll be in room 19, but be very quiet when you walk past room 4.
The man ask why I have to be so quiet when I walk past it?
The attendant says Oh, those are the Catholics, they think they're the only ones here...

Feel free to replace "Catholics" with "Sunnis", "Shiites", "Orthodox", "Mormons", "Ahmadis", "Quranists" or whatever sect who think that they're the only one who shall go to Heaven..

Lol that joke was a good one... It should be like this ''Join my religion and you would SURELY go to hell'' ;D ;D ;D ;D

I dont have so much contact with quranists, but both brother Bigmo and some other 'quranists' have clearly mentioned that anyone who believes in God and the last day (quran 569) would enter paradise no matter his religion or no matter how ateist he must be. I Myself also believe that there are muslims everywhere and kafirs everywhere. But whenever I say that, sectarians begin to hate me.
But it should not surprise me if some quranists hold the opinion that everyone except themselves should go to Hell.

We must begin a new topic about the danger of becoming a quranist sect.

[Maha]

Thats it.

I don't think I'd be able to discuss such things because I may lose some of my closest friends. Religion is what they're main identity, particularly the 'Sunnah of Muhammad' and thats what they've been brought up with, essentially being brainwashed to the point they think it's absolute truth. I've noticed that Muslims in particular are much more serious about they're beliefs than say religious Christians/Sikhs due to the conservative nature of they're culture that is ingrained in their families (since most Muslims in the West are immigrants, or the children of immigrants).

If I do decide to discuss this topic, I know what the exact reactions of my friends will be. Something like "Astagfirullah, how can you not follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad", "Saying such things is shirk and will turn you into a non-muslim", "are you saying you know more than the great scholars of Islam?", "you're acting like the Qadianis" etc. It's funny because I used to be exactly like this, the arrogant religious type. I used to dislike Ahmadiyya Muslims too and join in on with my friends talking about how misguided they were. When we used to talk about topics such as the arrival of the Mahdi, Isa and Dajjal, I used to be at the front of the conversation reciting this Hadith and that Hadith, talking about prophecies etc.

It's hard keeping my opinions to myself, it really is but I somehow do. It's not uncommon for a friend to butt in on a particular conversation and say something along the likes of, "But I don't think it's Islamically correct", or "you shouldn't get too close to girls", and sometimes backbiting (when talking about a particular person - in this case a women who wears hijab) - "whats the point of wearing hijab when they wear it in such a fashionable way, thats not proper hijab". Such things are so irritating for me to hear and I often get the urge to interrupt and tell them how ethically wrong their views are and how they shouldn't be so quick to judge someone else, but instead I usually end up changing the topic and start talking about something else.

Subhanallah so true what you are writing. I excately feel as you do. When I first lost my sunni best friend i became very afraid of loosing my others friends so i was very consious about not revealing too much of my views although i felt it was an act of an coward... true friends would remain your friends even when you disagree with their religion (but its hard for sunnites to understand that since they made islam their identity). But believe me, its when you disagree with your friends you would get to know if they are your true friends or not.
I am a former sunni so I can best talk on the behalf of sunnites.
Just ponder on this The West have reached the moon while the sunnites still discuss whether a woman is allowed to drive or not What kind of joke have these sunnites made their own religion into?? And than they wonder why the West is far more advanced then they are??

Excately as you mentioned, whenever - especially us from muslim backgrounds - question the sunni belief instead of getting an answer we get 'ASTAGHFIRULLAH' on our faces, we are threaten with hell and in this way the sunnites have made hell on the earth for people who question them. They have prevented the mind from questioning, choosing (by declaring death sentence for murdad, apostates) and comapring(by not allowing other religions to propegate) even though its the same mind God gave people in order to choose between paradise and hell. The truth is, that God honored every human being by allowing him/her to choose his path of life, but these sunnites simply disagree with God himself.

However, I would advice you to next time you make ''new friends'' to choose more open-minded liberal ones, as I do now when I make ''new friends''.

[Maha]

Peace

You really need to get that chip off your shoulder. I in no way was I attacking you. I was only giving you advice on how to talk to people. You push your agenda without giving adequate proof. You speak of other peoples interpretation that youve read about (not that there's anything wrong with it) but you provide no proof. It's fine to believe in what you believe, but if you don't give any proof to back up your claims, then you shouldn't say anything.

Similarly, when the Jews and Christians make their claims about paradise, God says to tell them

2111 Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

And regarding the way you choose to relay the message, God has another ayat for you. Maybe you should take advice from this, as I see you attack people that have views different from yours, something that this forum is not a stranger to

16125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is guided.

Peace

If you read my post you would have known that I provided proof afterwards, but you simply have a problem with your attitude.

16125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is guided.

This verse really dont make sense for you since you dont argue, you simply attack. If you are so rude with a God-aloner like me, I really cant imagine how rude you must be with the sectarians. I am waiting to see improvements from you regarding your negative attitude and rudeness towards me.

[Bigmo]

Very enlightening post from you, brother Bigmo. Thanks a lot. However, the most extremely difficult thing to discuss with the sunnites and shiites - more difficult than sunnah - is the concept of faith. You beautifully said

Thats the most dangerous thing for a sunni or shiite to hear, because it would break their monopolistic hold on religion. To say that there are OTHERS who would enter paradise than them, is totally unacceptanle for a sunni or shiite.

Beside that I found that whenever I speak with them.. for instance HIJAB for women is VERY important for the sunnites and shiites... To say that hijab is not required for women is KUFR for them.. now hijab and beard is a small issue for quranists but for sunnites and shiites its very big issues which defines your faith.. so the first questions i get from them is always something about hijab and beard and if I dont support the requirement of hijab they would label me as a kafir and refuse to listen to me further, like it happened in my small conversation with that sunni.

Moreover I experienced that sunnites and shiites despite all their disagreements, fighting etc. when it comes to quranists they join each other against the quranists. Quranist are the only people who unconsciously create peace and love between the sunnites and shiites, because they both have a common enemy to fight than.

It seems like there is a barrier between us and them which is very hard to break.

Thats true but lets look at it from their point of view. Most Muslims don't have even a fraction of the knowledge every Koranist has since we had to find our way here. When our children grow up and become Koranist because dad and mom are Koranist then they too might be ignorant since they got into the religion based on their parents upbringing rather than their own research. But as of now nearly all Koranist became Koranist because of self research.This means we are far more knwoledgeable than the average Muslims especiallya s far as the Koran is concerned.

Now the average Muslims would ask himself this question. Are all the Muslims wrong and these guys are right? Are all the scholars of Islam throught history not aware of what the Koran says? Why isn't anybody following this Islam then? How come I don't see any Koranist around and how could it be that all the Muslims are wrong and these few guys are right?

That is why abrogation is such an avoided topic by many Sunni/Shia scholars since it makes people realize that they are not following all the Koran. But anyways my guess is as the number of Koranist grow and people hear and see them more, these very same people who are wondering how can the Koranist be right will be the pigeons that will follow the Koranist way. I guess what I am trying to say is 90% of humans are conformist and not individualist when it comes to religion. At one time the Sunnis and Shias were a minority and they faced many criticism. Al Shafi was considered a heretic and a controversial person. looking at his treatise "Al Risala" we can see how his ideas about the Sunnah was an innovation unheard of by most Muslims at his time.

Al-Shafi and the invention of the so called Sunnah

knowledge and how much should men know of it?

30. Shafii replied Legal knowledge is of two kinds one is for the general public, and no sober and mature person should be ignorant of it.

31. He asked For example?

32. replied For example, that the daily prayers are five, that men owe it to God to fast the month of Ramadan, to make the pilgrimage to the House whenever they are able, and to the legal alms in their estate; that He has prohibited usury, adultery, homicide, theft, wine, and of that sort which He has obligated men to comprehend, to perform, to pay in their property, and to abstain from He has forbidden it to them.

This kind of knowledge may be found textually in the Book of God, or may be found generally among the people of Islam. The public relates it from the preceding public and ascribes it to the Apostle of God, nobody ever questioning its ascription or its binding force upon them. It is the kind of knowledge which admits of error neither in its narrative nor in its interpretation; it is not permissible to question it.

33. He asked What is the second kind?

34. Shafii replied It consists of the detailed duties and rules obligatory on men, concerning which there exists neither a text in the Book of God, nor regarding most of them, a sunna. Whenever a sunna exists , it is of the kind related by few authorities, not by the public, and is subject to different interpretations arrived at by analogy.

35. He asked Is replied There is a third kind .

36. He asked Will you explain it, give its source, and state what of it is obligatory, and on whom it is binding and on whom it is not binding?

37. replied The public is incapable of knowing this kind of knowledge, nor can all specialists obtain it. But those who do obtain it should not all neglect it. If some can obtain it, the others are relieved of the duty ; but those who do obtain it will be rewarded.

ON THE OBLIGATION OF MAN TO ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE PROPHET

A Declaration Concerning the Duty Imposed by God, as Laid Down in His Book, To Follow the Prophets Sunna

86. Shafii said God has placed His Apostle His religion, His commands and His Bookin the position made clear by Him as a distinguishing standard of His religion by imposing the duty of obedience to Him as well as prohibiting disobedience to Him. He has made His merits evident by associating belief in His Apostle with the belief in Him. For God, Blessed and Most High, said

So believe in God and His Apostles, and do not say Three. Refrain; better for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him. His having a son is something alien to him .

And He said

The believers are only those who have believed in God and His Apostle, and who when they are with him on some common affair do not go away until they ask his permission .

Thus prescribed that the perfect beginning of the faith, to which all other things are subordinate, shall be the belief in Him and then in His Apostle. For if a person believes only in Him, not in His Apostle, the name of the perfect faith will never apply to him until he believes in His Apostle together with Him.

So the Apostle laid down the sunna for testing the faith of every man

https//www.fonsvitae.com/OnlineStore/tabid/58/pid/143/0863-Treatise-on-the-Foundations-of-Islamic-Jurisprudence-Al-Shafiis-Risala.aspx

Notice Al Shafi claiming two source and maybe three exist in Islam. Something that people at the time have not heard of. Notice how he had to explain why its obligatory, something no Muslims today would even ask. Notice also how he says that this revelation (the Sunnah) is not availbale to the public but is in the hands of a few authorities. Finally notice Al Shafi using verses of the Koran to make way for this new revelation since the Koran wa sthe only source people had at the time. We can see he used the same verses that Sunnis use to validate the Sunnah. Mainly the"obey God and obey his meesenger" verses and "the Koran and wisdom" verses. Shafi claimed that the term "wisdom" meant in those verses was the Sunnah.

During Al Shafi the Mutaziltes (the Koranist) were in power. The Sunnis came to power by political alliance with the Abbasids (Al Mutawakkil era) since the Mutaziltes could not find the ink in the Koran to give the ruling class absolute authority the way the Sunnis and Shias can. They simply need to manufacture some hadiths to do that. This is why we see such discrepancy regarding the prophetic authority between the Koran and Sunnah. By elevating the prophetic authority to divine like status, the Sunnis and Shias were then able to transfer that authority to the ruling elites by default. That is probably whyall the ruling classes in Islamic histiry allied themselves with the Sects since the sects gave that authority to the ruling class especially the Sunnis. The Shias as the main oppossition party gave that authority to the Cleric since they were not the ruling Sect in the Abbasid era. The Sunnis were the ruling Sect so they gave all authority to the ruler. Something the Mutaziltes could never do since the only source they had was the Koran and the Koran is exlplicit about the prophetic authority. Unless someone infringes on another human being;s right, the prophet had no authority over him. Whether that person wants to believe or give Zakat or fast Ramadan or do whatever is not his business. Since the highest authority a person can have n Earth is prophetic authority, this meant that nobody could have a higher authority than the prophet had. This was seen as dangerous and not useful by the ruling class, mainly the Abbasids and all that came after them.

The ruling classes in islam were predominately Meccans and they have no real claim to fame except their geneology so it made sense to them to trace their political authority to Muhammad just like they relied on their geneology to rise to power. This is how tribal societies operate and no tribe can be more noble than the Muhammadan tribe, the Banu Hashims who the Abbasids trace their origins to. Abbas was Muhammad's uncle and his son was Abdullah Ibn Abbas appears many times in Bukhari's hadith as a narrator.

The Meccans elites couldn't claim to have hadiths from Moses or Noah so it made sense to them to elevate muhammad's toi divine like status both in status and in revelation, than to emphasize his humanity and thus this authority and status can now be transfered to the Meccan elites by default. They became the most noble of the tribes with absolute authority. The companions were the bride that transfered that authority to the ruler since it=f they kept that authority with Muhammad himself than it would have meant that this suthority may not be able to transfer to anybody else except another prophet. The Ridda war of Abu Bkar is a perfect example of that authority transfer so are many hadiths about Umar and Ali. perhaps these four companions who ruled after Muhammad were not down with this game so the Meccan and their allies assasinated them.

We can see from the Koran that one of the requests made by the Meccans was

10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

This sounds very similar to this

The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an

The Sunnah can be divided into three parts

Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it.

Explanatory Sunnah.

This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an.

Sunnah that brings new legislation.

This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an.

http//www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php?p=1

The red part and blue example we can see is

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

So a general statement like this was made specific and not refering to all Jews and Christians but perhaps Jews and Christians before Muhammad or the Jews and Christians during Jesus's time and Moses' time. They then added the 5 pillars to change that criteria. The 5 pillars is an example of the blue part highlighted.

(9.29) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Here a verse that was aimed at the Meccans and their Jewish allies who persecuted Muhammad and drove him and his followers out of Mecca and how they now should be compensated for their losses (war reperation) was made to be a general statement that is to be applied on all Jews and Christians that live under Muslim rule. They then came and made hadiths about how Abu Bakr and Umar etc imposed Jizya on non Muslims and came up with the infamous hadith "I was ordered to fight the people till they say La Ilaha Ila Allah" that changed the war criteria in the Koran from a defensive war to an offensive hence began the era of the Islamic conquest. Here we see how things made specific was made general and vice versa and how things were added to fulfill the Meccan requirements that the Koran be changed, Unabale to change the Koran they opted for the other request they gave Muhammad which is to come up with another Koran which they called the Sunnah than they can do the changing they wanted.

We know of course there is another place the Sunnah has that dare not say its name and that is the Sunna can abrogate the Koran. But of course clerics hate to say this in public. Apostasy law is a an example of that which is why throughtout Islamic history we know of very little cases when this law was applied since its too controversial. Abrogation is a crime against humanity and a conspiracy against the Koran. Stoning the adulterer is another law never practiced in Islamic history except nowadays with the rise of the Islamist. It was one of the added legislations but it was seen as too much of an addition and hence avoided. Muhamamd Ibn AbulWahhab, the founder of the Wahhabi movement was the firt person rumored to have actually applied this lwa but its not certain. He was then rumored to have been expelled from the city by taking the law into his hands. He was an idiot who was not probably trained and probably did not understand why this issue was controversial, typical salafis. They are not smart or trained as the other Sunni authorities who understood that this can open a whole can of worms for them.

Lets look at the verse again

10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

Notice the answer Muhammad gave them was "i don't have that authority to add legislation, to spin verses and make general specific and vice versa and I certainly don't have the authority to abrogate (delete) verses if your agenda requires me to do so". That is probably when the Meccans realized they have no way out but to finish off with Muhammad since he was not cooperating with them. But the answer given in that verse tells us the limited authoity he has when it came with the laws of the Koran.

Of course this is only one aspect of the Sunnah (political class influences), there are pre Islamic paganism influences, Persian and Zoroastrian influences, Judaic influences, common culture and beduin influences and there are even probably many Koranist influences also in the Sunnah. The Sunnah reflects the ideological and cultural battles that Muslims communities engaged in hence the contraditions we see in the Sunnah. As Koranist we probably don't really care what the agendas was and how they went about promoting them since its the Koran's agenda we are interested in but it's very interesting how we see the agendas unfolding in the Sunnah. But in the end its not really a concern to us.

[Paradox_Uncreated]

The reactions I got, more than 7 years ago probably now, when I first enganged them, coming to their website having followed the Quran for a few years, loving God, even crying when I read the Quran because I found it to be so beautiful, they called me disbelievers, would not listen to logic about satan, did not accept homophilia as bad, told me to "fill your heart with the love of sahaba", and me thinking that wasn`t God enough.

And then they threatened to take away my priveledges in the forum, and give access to "disbelievers" only.

And then they banned.

I tried going back there, but same thing, only mentioning "following Quran Alone" got me banned.

Later I met them on a social network local to Norway.
One moderator talked about "being an idol to their children".
Another had hasish-smoking nuns on their profile.
Their imam is frequently making rabid statements.
The ones who banned me in the forum, make "cool guy" ban statements.
Another imam in the forum says "I am not of the saliheen (godconscious)", all of the quran, and prayers are so you shall be godconscious.
that social network did close down, due to much unserious activity.
I met them in another social network now defunct also, where again I was banned for defending Quran Alone. A much stronger feeling of sectarianhood athmosphere there. I could almost feel how their feared their imams, and couldnt say anything. And like they didnt know the country around them, and democratic prinicples, of freedom of speech, and freedom of religion.

Other than these, I see on youtube that some sectarians take the teachings of satan seriously, and that is good.
Then again you see muslimvlogguy and he is an ignorant provocateur. He is probably worshipped and lashes out agains Quran Aloners, because they don`t worship him.

I have however looked a bit at Iran lately, and I am getting some good vibes.
In Norway people react on this country, but I see so many good things.
First of all hadith, don`t seem that central there. And even if they are followed, they also include statements on intelligence.

• No interests in their banks.
• Drugbarons are executed. (imagine they complain about that here)
• Gays are executed. (They harassed me for years on the internet, I can only imagine a place without them being wonderful.)
• Ofcourse they have and know the Quran. Which for serious people, should mean intelligence, non-promiscuity, morality, familyvalues, etc.
• I am going to go there, when I get the money. I might travel to other muslim countries too. We`ll see.a

Even in wahabbi Saudi-Arabia I can see people with sense. They sendt back an extremist to norway, on 9/11-2011, that talked about a new 9/11 on norwegian grounds. I interpreted that as giving that day a better name, by working against an extremist.

I am going to do some more research though, and when time and money allows I am going to travel abit. There are probably good people in this country, that arent enemies of Quran-followers. Even if it should be a problem, I dont need to make a big political fuss, and make it known. I just want to see some culture based on the Quran

Ofcourse if they turn out to be like the sectarians in the forums over here, its going to be a big dissapointment. But people cant all be taht stupid.