The Bible Is Not The Tawrat (Torah) & Injil (Gospel)

Bigmo

Peace Benigno

You are absolutely right but
The people used to be one community when GOD sent the prophets as bearers of good news, as well as warners. He sent down with them the scripture, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes. Ironically, those who received the scripture were the ones who rejected any new scripture, despite clear proofs given to them. This is due to jealousy on their part. GOD guides those who believe to the truth that is disputed by all others, in accordance with His will. GOD guides whoever wills in a straight path.

How do they reject? By changing the words and the language used.

The late Bro Ahmad Deedat quotes, from a Christians source, in his book The Choice - The Quran or The Bible - pg 20.

It is hard for us to realized that when the books of the bible were originially written, there was no printing press to multiply the copies. Each copy must be made slowly and laboriously by hand. Under these conditions it was inevitable that many ancient books should be lost. This largely account to the fact that ALL the original manuscripts of the bible have perished.

I understand what you are saying and I am not disputing that. What I am saying is the Koran is fully aware of this but this what God has chosen to be handed to mankind. There seems to be a thinking that the Koran must be talking about some other Torah and Injeel but this is not the case at all. Muslims I think expected to find a Koran like scripture from the Torah and Injel but this is not the case. Jesus refered to the same Torah as the one we have and yet he said repeatedly that he came to confirm the Torah. Jesus attacked the Talmud and so did the Koran. Especially the aspects of the Talmud that violated the Torah commandments. Just like we attack the Sunnah that violated=s the teachings of the Koran. The Torah and Gospel are not God's words but God's books. Jesus however was God's word. Muhammad was not given the same revelation as Jesus as Jesus himself was the Koran. Each prophets had their own revelations. Only Muhammad was given God's word as a book.

Bigmo

As-Salaam Alaikum,

I really can't believe this is still being debated after so much evidence has been given.

No proof? Are you serious?

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby." - al-Qur'an 279

What better proof do you need than the words of Allah themself? Also consider this, we agree that Isa (pbuh) and his disciples spoke Aramiac right? Well all of the New Testament's manuscripts are in Greek, a language Isa (pbuh) and his disciples never spoke. How then can you continue to believe that the New Testament is the original Injil? Also, most of the NT was written by Paul who is never mentioned in the Qur'an. Why is he never mentioned if we are to believe in his writings?

You keep accusing people of conspiracy theories and contradicting themselves yet you are the only one contradicting yourself. May Allah give you guidance.

If you read my article I have talked about this verse. You need to read the verses before it and after it.

huruf

I understand what you are saying and I am not disputing that. What I am saying is the Koran is fully aware of this but this what God has chosen to be handed to mankind. There seems to be a thinking that the Koran must be talking about some other Torah and Injeel but this is not the case at all. Muslims I think expected to find a Koran like scripture from the Torah and Injel but this is not the case. Jesus refered to the same Torah as the one we have and yet he said repeatedly that he came to confirm the Torah. Jesus attacked the Talmud and so did the Koran. Especially the aspects of the Talmud that violated the Torah commandments. Just like we attack the Sunnah that violated=s the teachings of the Koran. The Torah and Gospel are not God's words but God's books. Jesus however was God's word. Muhammad was not given the same revelation as Jesus as Jesus himself was the Koran. Each prophets had their own revelations. Only Muhammad was given God's word as a book.

But the Qur'an we have it today. We do not have Isa today, that is if Isa is the same as Jesus, and that is very open to question.

Salaam

MaverickMonotheist

Salamun Alaikum to All,

Questions

Who were the people who were present during the canonization of the NT in 375 AD? Are they Isrealites.
In what language?
During the convocation, did they confabulated with GOD?
Did GOD mentioned in the original manuscript or most ancient copies or ancient copies of the Gospel that HE with HIS wisdom that he will replace the original copies or most ancient copies of the Gospel with the NT sometime later? If there is, please quote,

Thank you in advance and Peace
Sidi

Doesn't matter. According to 33, it was God who sent them down. Your concern is with the process of how it was sent down, because it was different than revelation of Quran. But if you believe the Quran, you have no real choice to accept the inspiration of Torah and Gospel. What we have today is the same as what was present at the time of Mohammed.

NOMAD

Salaam sun

You can read 33 in AQ and read Bible and fullfill your blind wishes, but if you read all MAryam and Isa Chapters and forget that forgeries from Bible maybe you you will get into too something...
Im a Msulim , i take only AQ, taking bible to cnheck AQ is absurd and no sense, that i cal IBIBLeSS

Salaam

Hoppean

Salaam sun

You can read 33 in AQ and read Bible and fullfill your blind wishes, but if you read all MAryam and Isa Chapters and forget that forgeries from Bible maybe you you will get into too something...
Im a Msulim , i take only AQ, taking bible to cnheck AQ is absurd and no sense, that i cal IBIBLeSS

Salaam

Please give us your exegesis of 541-49, thank you.

Sidi

by MM Doesn't matter. According to 33, it was God who sent them down. Your concern is with the process of how it was sent down, because it was different than revelation of Quran. But if you believe the Quran, you have no real choice to accept the inspiration of Torah and Gospel. What we have today is the same as what was present at the time of Mohammed.

AQ - 0303 is ABSOLUTE. There is no question about it. My question is when the NT comes into existence?

What is wrong with your logic?

Do you have another book to uphold?

In it, do you find anything you want?

MaverickMonotheist

I never said anything about the New Testament. I said the GOSPEL. The message of Jesus the Messiah, otherwise known in the Quran as Isa al Masih.

AQ - 0303 is ABSOLUTE. There is no question about it. My question is when the NT comes into existence?

What is wrong with your logic?

Do you have another book to uphold?

In it, do you find anything you want?

MaverickMonotheist

Please give us your exegesis of 541-49, thank you.

THIS. )

Sidi

By Hoppean - Please give us your exegesis of 541-49, thank you.

The Law stipulated in the ORIGINAL Torah & ORIGINAL Gospel is still applicable as according to AQ 0543-49 and read the Quranic verses below.

O you who believe, you shall embrace total submission; do not follow the steps of Satan, for he is your most ardent enemy.

The only religion approved by GOD is "Submission". Ironically, those who have received the scripture are the ones who dispute this fact, despite the knowledge they have received, due to jealousy. For such rejectors of GOD's revelations, GOD is most strict in reckoning.

AQ If they argue with you, then say, "I have simply submitted myself to GOD; I and those who follow me." You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture, as well as those Gentiles, "Would you submit?" If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is Seer of all people.

AQ Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

AQ Do not accept anything that you yourself cannot ascertain. You are given the hearing, the sight and the mind in order to examine and verify

huruf

I never said anything about the New Testament. I said the GOSPEL. The message of Jesus the Messiah, otherwise known in the Quran as Isa al Masih.

So, ?Where is the Gospell? Spell it out very very clearly and for idiots, beacause otherwise we seem to be assisting to a moving posts festival, where what we are talking about keeps moving all the time, or shapeshifting or some weird happenings.

Salaam

Gnosis

As-Salaam Alaikum,

I'm not even going to entertain this topic anymore after this. Clear evidence is given in my OP along with the others who posted evidence. Arguing against the matter now is a result of a few strangely deciding to hold onto a book that has been proven to be written by men.

Salamun Alaikum to All,

Questions

Who were the people who were present during the canonization of the NT in 375 AD? Are they Isrealites.
In what language?
During the convocation, did they confabulated with GOD?
Did GOD mentioned in the original manuscript or most ancient copies or ancient copies of the Gospel that HE with HIS wisdom that he will replace the original copies or most ancient copies of the Gospel with the NT sometime later? If there is, please quote,

Thank you in advance and Peace
Sidi

These points were valid ones yet never addressed, they were met with a "it doesn't matter" response lol. I couldn't even get a genuine response of why the Gospels are in Greek when Isa (pbuh) spoke Aramaic. May Allah give us all guidance.

MaverickMonotheist

As-Salaam Alaikum,

I'm not even going to entertain this topic anymore after this. Clear evidence is given in my OP along with the others who posted evidence. Arguing against the matter now is a result of a few strangely deciding to hold onto a book that has been proven to be written by men.

These points were valid ones yet never addressed, they were met with a "it doesn't matter" response lol. I couldn't even get a genuine response of why the Gospels are in Greek when Isa (pbuh) spoke Aramaic. May Allah give us all guidance.

That's because I see no need to address irrelevant questions to people who don't bother to even read history. Nicea had nothing to do with the canon. The precursor of the modern canon was as early as 170 AD (Muratorian Fragment) in response to the Marcionite heresy, and there was general consensus about the acceptance of the four gospels way before a formal council decided anything. You don't even know enough to decide whether or not a question on the topic is valid.

I already addressed the question of language. Whether or not you choose to accept that is your business. Mohammed spoke Arabic, no? Yet there are Hebrew and Greek words in the Quran. Does that bring its legitimacy into question, too? Answer regarding 33 and 541-49, please.

Bigmo

Salaam sun

You can read 33 in AQ and read Bible and fullfill your blind wishes, but if you read all MAryam and Isa Chapters and forget that forgeries from Bible maybe you you will get into too something...
Im a Msulim , i take only AQ, taking bible to cnheck AQ is absurd and no sense, that i cal IBIBLeSS

Salaam

Right, but its not what you take we are looking at but what the Koran is saying. Why would the Koran tell people to follow something that does not exist? What you want to take is not relevant to the discussion. The Torah and Gospel and Koran are ecah self sufficient but to understand some aspects of the Koran without the previous scriptures is difficult.

NOMAD

Salaam

The Torah and Gospel and Koran are ecah self sufficient but to understand some aspects of the Koran without the previous scriptures is difficult.

thats an Hadither answer, anyway its what you take as truth..and dont want to get out from this triology of books..
Whats in AQ is precisly and to say oposite is to say Muhamed was aMejnunor Allah ..

Its your opinion and i respect handshake
Salaam

NOMAD

Salaam

I think there is an ideological pattern. Quranists have a quran-only impulse and after a while, non-Quranic information steps in. You then have ?this scholar said that? and ?this messenger said that? and somehow certain sources become authoritative.

These Quranists tend to believe in earlier scriptures but not hadith even though they are both equal in the eyes of the Quran. Apparently previous scriptures are approved by the Quran and the Quran is the criteria. However, they don?t use the Quran to confirm these ?scriptures? but rather use these scriptures to ?detail? the fully-detailed Quran. Ironic?

Are there earlier scriptures according to the Quran? The Quran says

Nothing is said to you except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty. (41/43)

So if we take this aya above seriously, the Quran contains everything which was said to the messengers before. The double negative in this verse shows great emphasis. Nothing was said to them which wasn?t already said before!

The people who support ?earlier scriptures? would then say ?but the Quran doesnt have the details which the bible has?. I would answer them by saying that?s because its not an earlier scripture! The Quran only acknowledges itself.

Then came to the issue of Mikayl. It was stated the Quran only mentions Mikayl once (in 2/9 and so we need the Bible to supply us details. This sounds very familiar doesnt it, folks? This is a new Traditionalism except it uses the unQuranic ?previous scripture? notion. How do we solve this Mikayl problem?

Firstly, we must trust that everything the Quran tells us enough. But how do we find out what mikayl is? Lets return to 41/43 above. 41/43 anticipates the problem we might face and so the next verse tells us what to do

And if We had made it a faulty Quran, they would have said, ?Why are its verses not explained in detail (41/44)

A faulty Quran (ajami) would not able to supply us the details. The opposite of this word ?ajami? is ?arabi? which means faultless or with nothing sticking out. The Quran further says

Indeed, We have sent it down as a faultless that you might think (12/2)

The systematic and faultless language of the Quran enables us to think about its concepts. Take the mikayl. If one were to root it, it would rescind to W-K-L. This means to take representative in something. Tawakkal is to rely on something. Mikayl is a state in which God represents you. It follows Jibrael which is revelation.

The Quran stands on its own. There are no ?previous scriptures?.

pr Salaam

Gnosis

As-Salaam Alaikum,

Truly my last contribution to this discussion, and then I'm done.

http//dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-changed-the-bible-and-why-bart-ehrmans-startling-answers/

^If the above link doesn't provide enough proof and evidence then you just don't want to know the truth.

"You can't handle the truth!!!!"

Sidi

By Bigmo Today
Right, but its not what you take we are looking at but what the Koran is saying. Why would the Koran tell people to follow something that does not exist? What you want to take is not relevant to the discussion. The Torah and Gospel and Koran are ecah self sufficient but to understand some aspects of the Koran without the previous scriptures is difficult.

You are dead wrong, let the Quran answer this

We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.

Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

AlboDibran

Salaam, ive got a task for you sun

only From the Arabic Qur'an
Get me out of the Qur'an that there was a cross and people was going to crucify Isa...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that Moses had the Torah....nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that history is a divine truth...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that the bible and Torah is the same of today...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an the real explanation of the word "The book"...This is mistranslation of the word "the book" to be compatible with history...we are still affected by the history and the hadiths yet we should expel the history and the hadiths from our selves.

Now for a bigger bomb...Why did god in the Qur'an mention that this book is written by an Arabian TONGUE (not language be careful)...Didn't people of the Arabian desert know that they are speaking Arabic? did they need from god to know that there tongue is speaking Arabic? did God need that?Then there must be something else intentioned from this verse...what about the many contradictions of the language grammar and the grammar (if it is grammar) of the Qur'an???Still unknown errors? no it is not an unknown error it is just, we don't want to face it...yes the Arabic language is NOT the language of the Qur'an...Qur'an's language is an Arabian tongue that no one did explain it till now...

I can explain more but will take time, go search in the Arabic Qur'an if you can the word Moses with the Torah....there is nothing...Moses had "the book" which book? The same book God said that it's contents is included in the Qur'an...The same book the man who had some knowledge from it transported the Queen balkees to Solomon in no time..

Same book Isa knew about it with the Engeel and the Torah....the Engeel and Torah is NOT the Bible and Torah of today...Read the Torah and read the Bible of today...Specially the Torah, after reading the Qur'an...it is just a translation of the content of the Qur'an but a fake one...And since the content of the Qur'an is the book, the book was with Moses and it descended upon humanity...here you have the real deal...These people made up new religions from the Book which has the same content of the Qur'an...

History can't be much dirty? no it can... D

"People where one nation God sent prophets as heralds and warnings and he descended with them the book with righteous to judge (judge hear is returning on the book not the prophets) between people in what they became different in it and And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.

This is the real history... with no elfs hobbits or unicorns peace

Agreed bro. Allah knows best of course as we are not infallible. I have come to the conclusion the message the same message of Al-Quran was given to all the messengers. Let me present an example of the falsehood we still believe, even so called Quran alone Muslims who still fall for false historical lies.

Quran surah 2729

The Queen of Sheba said, ?Counsellors, a gracious letter has been delivered to me.

Whats wrong with this verse translation? that most muslims still fall for? lets look at the arabic

Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun

Any person with just a shred of knowledge of arabic language will tell you that Kitabun does not mean letter..but BOOK. Solomon had AL KITAB

moving further

2730

It is from Solomon, and it says, ?In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy,

Innahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi

the only kitab I know that begins in this way is Al-Quran

2731

Alla taAAloo AAalayya watoonee muslimeena

That do not become high, mighty and dignified over me, and come to me (as) Moslems/submitters .

Muslims? yes because Islam was and is the only deen, and those who submit were always MUSLIM

2740

ut one of them who had some knowledge of the Scripture said, ?I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye.? When Solomon saw it set before him, he said, ?This is a favour from my Lord, to test whether I am grateful or not if anyone is grateful, it is for his own good, if anyone is ungrateful, then my Lord is self-sufficient and most generous.?

the word translated as scripture actually means "the book"

the Jinn had knowledge of Al-Kitab, therefore he knew of this event because he read it.

We see many cases in the Quran even in the story of Yusufs father who told his sons to enter Misr from the separate gates. and said Allah has given me knowledge of what you know not.

Allah knows best but the fact solomon was so badazzled when he saw the throne is I feel he read it in the Kitab Allah revealed to him BEFORE the event took place.

I dont see how Sheba can be so amazed by a glass floor in solomons court that she would give up idolatry. but she submitted because she saw something come to be

It makes perfect sense, Allah says its the SAME MESSAGE and his way DOES NOT CHANGE. It has been consistent from the get go. Allah says what is not from him is full of errors, and the bible and torah are full of them, even in original non english or latin translations. In the end Allah knows best but In my heart I dont believe Allah plays dice with the universe. I believe the message has been the very same revelation.

salam

AlboDibran