Caliphate system and Slavery
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Not me, do not look for my posts, I didn't say they were my posts. I did say there were whole threads about MMA. Look for the threads, they are long and everything is there. I am sure you are quite able to look for threads in the forum.
Precisely 4.25 ande many things are in those threads. Just take the trouble.
Nothing like what you say is to be had from 4.25, and that is also in several of those threads.
Salaam
Are you saying that you don't have your opinion about MMA? What about concubine? Do you agree with Bigmo, MMA is concubine?
Fyi., I had checked some of the threads in this forum which related to slave and what I see is the Quranist can't come to an agreement what should be the meaning of MMA. What a shame.
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Here is the verse 425 translation by Rashad Khalifa
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.* Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Footnote by Rashad Khalifa
**425 This law proves that the punishment for adultery could not possibly be stoning to death as stated in the laws of corrupted Muslims (see 242).Maybe the code19 believers want to comment on this.
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So, you looked through the threads and all you are albe to come up with, is the very same handed down translation of 4.25 which does not translate MMA and you discard the rest with the majestic there is no agreement amongst quranists as to what MMA is.
But youmust recognize there is a wide agreement about what it is not, and it is not slaves. And it is indeed surprising that that is all you can come up with. Is tht the best meaning you are able to come up with as to what MMA is? Is that the best meaning you can extract of that word. Because as I said, that is what the Qur'an tells us, to extract the best meaning. I do not think you havew bothered to much with those threads, since all you can come up with is this run of the mill translation, taken without careful thought from previous translations.
Why bother then?
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So, you looked through the threads and all you are albe to come up with, is the very same handed down translation of 4.25 which does not translate MMA and you discard the rest with the majestic there is no agreement amongst quranists as to what MMA is.
But youmust recognize there is a wide agreement about what it is not, and it is not slaves. And it is indeed surprising that that is all you can come up with. Is tht the best meaning you are able to come up with as to what MMA is? Is that the best meaning you can extract of that word. Because as I said, that is what the Qur'an tells us, to extract the best meaning. I do not think you havew bothered to much with those threads, since all you can come up with is this run of the mill translation, taken without careful thought from previous translations.
Why bother then?
At least Bigmo, Rashad Khalifa, our sunni friends and I have the courage to put out opinions or thoughts for public to judge. Do you have the guts to do so? Or guts to at least comment whether you agree or not to Bigmo's argument on the concubine?
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At least Bigmo, Rashad Khalifa, our sunni friends and I have the courage to put out opinions or thoughts for public to judge. Do you have the guts to do so? Or guts to at least comment whether you agree or not to Bigmo's argument on the concubine?
Of course not, I do not have any guts.
Salaam
Appreciate your honesty but sad to say that I do not deal with any person who does not have guts to express their own opinion or thoughts. This will be our last 'conversation' until you have the guts.
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Appreciate your honesty but sad to say that I do not deal with any person who does not have guts to express their own opinion or thoughts. This will be our last 'conversation' until you have the guts.
The issue here is whther its talking about slaves and whether the Koran allowed slavery. Your argument is that since the Koran did not explicitly ban slavery then it is allowed. There are many things the Koran did not explicitly ban but we know its wrong. Sex with animals is one of them.
There are many verses in the Koran that talked about freeing slaves. This to me is more important than just banning slavery since a person would not have slaves and not care about what others are doing. But here the person should strive to free slaves he does not own. Plus the Koran banned idol worship but still gave humans the freedom to commit shirk. Its not banning that should be looked at but what to do when it happens. When the Koran says to feed the poor, its not giving you a choice. When it says to do good with relatives and obey your parents, its not giving you a choice. So why is it with slavery you seem to see it as a choice?
A Koranist state can never legalize slavery anyways because it does not have that kind of authority. The authority to have one human own another.
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I have researched on the issue and can frankly agree on the point huruf was making.. nowhere do the quran says anything about MMA being sold and bought. What really confuse me is that if mma are war captives then there are dozens of verses in the quran talking about war but MMA are not mentioned even once in these war verses?! MMA are only mentioned in situations which has nothing to do with war. Another thing which has caused my doubt is that if MMA are slaves why are they called MMA And not slaves?!
An honest thanks to bigmo who made me do some research historically and quranically on this issue
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The issue here is whther its talking about slaves and whether the Koran allowed slavery. Your argument is that since the Koran did not explicitly ban slavery then it is allowed. There are many things the Koran did not explicitly ban but we know its wrong. Sex with animals is one of them.
There are many verses in the Koran that talked about freeing slaves. This to me is more important than just banning slavery since a person would not have slaves and not care about what others are doing. But here the person should strive to free slaves he does not own. Plus the Koran banned idol worship but still gave humans the freedom to commit shirk. Its not banning that should be looked at but what to do when it happens. When the Koran says to feed the poor, its not giving you a choice. When it says to do good with relatives and obey your parents, its not giving you a choice. So why is it with slavery you seem to see it as a choice?
A Koranist state can never legalize slavery anyways because it does not have that kind of authority. The authority to have one human own another.
The main issue is Al-Quran alone is not sufficient to guide mankind. Or in other word, Al-Quran is not complete or perfect.
Another good study case is the Forbidden or Sacred Months. What are the names of the months?
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The main issue is Al-Quran alone is not sufficient to guide mankind. Or in other word, Al-Quran is not complete or perfect.
Another good study case is the Forbidden or Sacred Months. What are the names of the months?
It sure is sufficient for me. What does knowing the months has to do with my salvation?
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It sure is sufficient for me. What does knowing the months has to do with my salvation?
You should asked the same question when we started the slavery and MMA discussion? And continue to ask the same question for each verse that you can't find the explanation inside Quran itself.
Verse 2461 There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend.
This where-to-eat verse suggests that Al-Quran's author not able to set priority. He kept the slavery, MMA and forbidden month cases hanging and busy detailing on less important matter.
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You should asked the same question when we started the slavery and MMA discussion? And continue to ask the same question for each verse that you can't find the explanation inside Quran itself.
Verse 2461 There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend.
This where-to-eat verse suggests that Al-Quran's author not able to set priority. He kept the slavery, MMA and forbidden month cases hanging and busy detailing on less important matter."We did not leave anything out of this book? 638
?Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?? 6114
?The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient? 6115
?This is not fabricated ?hadith?; this confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe? 12111
?We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters? 1689
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe" 12.111
"For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail , a guide and a mercy to all who believe" 7.52
"A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear . "
"We have not instructed the in Poetry, nor is it meet for him this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear (3669]
A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book."
"These are verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes things clear;
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"By A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. "
"These are verses of the Book that makes clear."
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes clear;"
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters."
Sure seems the Koran is sufficient to me.
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"We did not leave anything out of this book? 638
?Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?? 6114
?The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient? 6115
?This is not fabricated ?hadith?; this confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe? 12111
?We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters? 1689
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe" 12.111
"For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail , a guide and a mercy to all who believe" 7.52
"A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear . "
"We have not instructed the in Poetry, nor is it meet for him this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear (3669]
A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book."
"These are verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes things clear;
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"By A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. "
"These are verses of the Book that makes clear."
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes clear;"
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters."
Here are the contradictions of Al-Quran. Leave nothing, full of details, makes things clear etc. but its believers until today can't come to an agreement on MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc.
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Here are the contradictions of Al-Quran. Leave nothing, full of details, makes things clear etc. but its believers until today can't come to an agreement on MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc.
you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)
I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.
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you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)
I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.
Right. Things like MMA are tests the Quran is doing to see what future generations will do and what kind of spin they will try to put in the Koranic verses. We are told that we must never specualte on verses that are not made clear to us. Things like forbidden months are rituals, like haj and ramadan. The Koran reminds us in verse 2.177 that rituals like Qibla are a means to an end and not an end by themselves. When the Koran is says its detailed and clear, it means that everything we neeed for our salvation is made clear to us. You are also right to say that the Koran is timeless and many things that may not beclear to us now maybe so in the future as many things may not be clear to us now but were for the people of past clear. In the end what we need for our salvation is made clear to us, as verse 2.177 tells us. In the verse freeing slaves is clearly mentioned as a way for our to gain salvation. Somehow some still see it as a choice to free slaves when its clearly not. Charity in the Koran is not a choice but an order.
1071-7] Do you know who really rejects the faith? That is the one who mistreats the orphans. And does not advocate the feeding of the poor. And woe to those who observe the contact prayers (Salat) - who are totally heedless of their prayers. They only show off. And they forbid charity.
You shall give the due alms to the relatives, the needy, the poor, and the travelling alien, but do not be excessive, extravagant.
74.49. And (ask) of the Sinners "What led you into Hell Fire?" They will say "We were not of those who prayed; "Nor were we of those who fed the indigent; "But we used to talk vanities with vain talkers; "And we used to deny the Day of Judgment, "Until there came to us (the Hour) that is certain." Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.
So freeing the slaves when we can is not a choice but is placed by the Koran in the same category as feeding the poor and orphans and relatives. These are the saviors on the day of Judgement.
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Some people seem to feel that God, if He speaks in the Qur'an rather than in the Bible or the Universal declaration of Human rights, or whatever "document" they deem respectable as opposed to the Qur'an, that God should pander to their pickiness and feeling of the Qur'an, in order to be forgiven, having to be up to their most suspicious expectation of what a good god should do and reveal in order to win their approval.
God does not need anybody's approval. If one is are interested he should go and try to learn with sincerity, if one is not interested in learning and knowing but on exercising as an allknowing judge, he will waste his time. God does not pander to those who rank themselves as judges and are full of themselves.
Salaam