7:31: Do not eat excesively? or do not waste food?
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I have seen quite a mix result in regards to 731. The verse talks about how we dressing nicely and eating.
What I wanna bring up is the second part of it. So here are a couple different versions i've seen
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers. (Monotheist group)
731 You Adam's sons and daughters, take/receive your decoration/beauty at every/each mosque/place of worshipping God, and eat and drink and do not waste/spoil/ignore , that God does not love/like the wasters . (Ahmad Ali)
731 O children of Adam, dress yourselves fully, properly and decently at the time of every worship;20 eat and drink, but do not transgress, for Allah does not like the transgressors.
731 O CHILDREN of Adam! Beautify yourselves for every act of worship, and eat and drink , but do not waste verily, He does not love the wasteful! (Muhammad Asad)
The word at dispute here is "tus'rif" which can mean waste or excess but i've also seen it translated to transgress.
This one word confuses this verse as excess means we can't overeat and waste can simply mean not to let the food wasted by not eating it and throwing it away or simply throwing food away..
The third disputed one that i'm unsure of which is transgress makes me think that it means that we can eat and drink as long as we do not transgress such as eating pork or alcohol.
To me not eating excessively is hard to determine. To me that excessively means eating when I can't breath anymore yet to another its when you are slightly full you shouldn't more. This as a result would cut me off from things like all you can eat buffets which I really love and have a great time with my family.
To me wasting would be the one that makes the most sense as food should not be tossed out which is basically saying that the provisions that God has given us should be thrown away, especially when food is scarce out there. Even if one should overeat, it is better than tossing it in the trash.
But these are my views. What does everyone think? I personally believe waste makes the most sense rather than excessive, but it might be my desires speaking as I really REALLY love buffets and would sorely miss going with friends and families to them.
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I would think the context here is to not be gluttonous.
Yes the word used is Tasrifu, which means to "transgress".
The context of 731 is about eating and drinking, and then comes transgressing.
This has to be directed at transgressing at eating and drinking, and not really wasting the food.Eating habits would be different if you contrast between a starving person given a meal and a well fed nourished person, transgressing might thus be eating overboard and over that which you need.
It might be based on your need.
If you start gaining weight and becomming overweight, that might be transgressing.in the news
Qatar named as the fattest nation on earth where HALF of all adults are obese
http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129799/Qatar-named-fattest-nation-earth-HALF-adults-obese.html -
I would think the context here is to not be gluttonous.
Yes the word used is Tasrifu, which means to "transgress".
The context of 731 is about eating and drinking, and then comes transgressing.
This has to be directed at transgressing at eating and drinking, and not really wasting the food.Eating habits would be different if you contrast between a starving person given a meal and a well fed nourished person, transgressing might thus be eating overboard and over that which you need.
It might be based on your need.
If you start gaining weight and becomming overweight, that might be transgressing.in the news
Qatar named as the fattest nation on earth where HALF of all adults are obese
http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129799/Qatar-named-fattest-nation-earth-HALF-adults-obese.htmlFirst off eating a lot doesn't make you fat. Its calories that do. One can not eat much and gain alot of weight cause the food was high on calories.
But don't forget it also means waste. Wasting food is worse then overeating so try to explain if yoi truly believe excess is he word and not waste? Cause i'm not convinced as common sense makes me believe waste is the correct word as one who is eas too much is better than one who tosses it in the trash cause he overate.
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The word SaRaFa means EXCEEDING, or TRANSGRESSING the normal, healthy, acceptable limit.
I agree with Youssef that the context leads us to understand its primary meaning as not to be gluttonous.
BaZaRa is closer to the English waste..
Peace,
Edip -
The word SaRaFa means EXCEEDING, or TRANSGRESSING the normal, healthy, acceptable limit.
I agree with Youssef that the context leads us to understand its primary meaning as not to be gluttonous.
BaZaRa is closer to the English waste..
Peace,
EdipNo it translates to either Exceeding or Wasting
http//translate.google.com/#auto|en|%D8%AA%D9%8F%D8%B3%D9%92%D8%B1%D9%90%D9%81%D9%8F%D9%88%D8%A7popping it into google translater shows that you can translate that word to either exceed, waste or transgress (clicking on the english word lets you change the translation to either of the 3)
So I know it can't mean just exceed or transgress especially since like half the translators too have also went with waste as well.
I mean I really wouldn't understand going with the excess translation. Its okay to trash all the food you want but if you choose to eat it then "NO YOU ARE A SINNER". My common sense as a child has made me realize this and thus why I always empty my plate since then. This is why waste I believe can make sense rather than excess, but further elaborate
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"I mean I really wouldn't understand going with the excess translation. Its okay to trash all the food you want but if you choose to eat it then "NO YOU ARE A SINNER". My common sense as a child has made me realize this and thus why I always empty my plate since then. This is why waste I believe can make sense rather than excess, but further elaborate"
Wasting food is of course a sin... I do not reject the second meaning of the word. I stated that the PRIMARY meaning of the word.
I agree with Youssef that the context leads us to understand its primary meaning as not to be gluttonous.
I believe that the verse includes both issues
excessive eating and wasting food.
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"I mean I really wouldn't understand going with the excess translation. Its okay to trash all the food you want but if you choose to eat it then "NO YOU ARE A SINNER". My common sense as a child has made me realize this and thus why I always empty my plate since then. This is why waste I believe can make sense rather than excess, but further elaborate"
Wasting food is of course a sin... I do not reject the second meaning of the word. I stated that the PRIMARY meaning of the word.
I agree with Youssef that the context leads us to understand its primary meaning as not to be gluttonous.
I believe that the verse includes both issues
excessive eating and wasting food.
Can you prove that it meams both and not just one? I mean is there really harm for me to go with family and friends to a buffet once in a while?
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yes i do understand the calorie concept, i have stated
"If you start gaining weight and becomming overweight..."
Eating calorie dense food is not the same as eating calorie-free food!PLEASE CHECK the root of Tasrifo and it's uses in the Quran
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=srf1733 He should not exceed in killing
2067 And they are those who don't exceed nor become stingy when they spend
3953 say to the servants who have exceeded upon themselves , don't despair from the mercy of God
3147 Our Lord forgive our bad deeds and pour excessivness in our manners, and strenghthen our strongholdThe majority of the meaning of the uses of the root of S-R-F is Exceeding/transgressing/
and Please review from the context of the commandment
Eat and drink, but do not Tasrifo!what is this verb "tasrifo" directed at?
Is it not at verbs eating and drinking? -
yes i do understand the calorie concept, i have stated
"If you start gaining weight and becomming overweight..."
Eating calorie dense food is not the same as eating calorie-free food!PLEASE CHECK the root of Tasrifo and it's uses in the Quran
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=srf1733 He should not exceed in killing
2067 And they are those who don't exceed nor become stingy when they spend
3953 say to the servants who have exceeded upon themselves , don't despair from the mercy of God
3147 Our Lord forgive our bad deeds and pour excessivness in our manners, and strenghthen our strongholdThe majority of the meaning of the uses of the root of S-R-F is Exceeding/transgressing/
and Please review from the context of the commandment
Eat and drink, but do not Tasrifo!what is this verb "tasrifo" directed at?
Is it not at verbs eating and drinking?I have seen that word-for-word site and that is why I went and saw the full meanings and translations. That site takes whatever meaning it likes to take as that meaning. Heck just look at all the words that site says excess is used for can easily be replaced with waste instead which in many cases makes more sense.
As the translations based on google translator have shown, it can mean three things. One being wasting and thus wasting food and drinks is the one that makes the most sense. That site simply just refused to use the one based on wasting.
http//translate.google.com/#auto|en|%D8%AA%D9%8F%D8%B3%D9%92%D8%B1%D9%90%D9%81%D9%8F%D9%88%D8%A7
Just click on the word and you will see that it can mean either of the three.
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I also wanna add that if it did indeed mean "excessive" then following situations would not be possible anymore
-Going to meet your friend over a cup of coffee? TOO BAD! you can't have it cause you aren't thirsty and just want to sit with your friend and over some nice coffee. If you drink that coffee you'd be EXCEEDING the limits,
-You wanna watch a movie and want to have a bit of popcorn? TOO BAD! you aren't hungry, so NO POPCORN FOR YOU! and while we are at it NO SNACKS FOR YOU! NO COOKIES, CHIPS, OR NACHOS FOR YOU! otherwise you will be exceeding the limits by not being hungry and simply wanna enjoy some small food.
-It's a hot day and you are really warm right now but not thirsty and want to get a cold can of Coke. WELL TOO BAD! You aren't thirsty and you simply wanna cool off and enjoy a drink when you don't need it. If you do it you exceed the limits.- Your child is asking for a lollipop when he finished his dinner? TOO BAD! he doesn't need a lolipop as he isn't hungry and if he takes it, he will have exceeded the limits.
That is how silly it is if it meant exceeding. This is why I just can't believe it means that. Wasting yes I can see. Transgression I can see too. Exceeding, I just can't see it. The Quran has stated that this religion is not meant to be a burden and clearly that'd be quite a burden.
What do you guys say now?
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Can you prove that it meams both and not just one? I mean is there really harm for me to go with family and friends to a buffet once in a while?
Do you think there is harm in buffeting once in a while? Or once a week? or everyday?
You've got your reason and intuitions, Go for it! If you feel like its ok to buffet then great! If you think i really shouldn't because im getting fat and i don't want to be fat, then don't! But then if you think the hell with aesthetics i wanna eat plenty everyday, then i would do it if i was you. Then later when you get sick you'll realise you ate too much and hence transgressed thus bettering your understanding for what is the right limit for you.
Also about waste, try not to waste. My mum cooks plenty of food, thus at the end there is much leftover. Naturally my dad sacrifices himself and eats more than he wants to just to finish the leftovers and prevent it from being binned. My mum says eat more to me and I refuse. I suggest we bin the food. They argue it's wasteful. So cook less next time ) because if you force yourself to eat more then you want to (in this case my dad) you end up transgressing (in a mild form). The sin here is overeating and has the consequence of bloating, possibly feeling sick or uncomfortable in general. I doubt that this (eating too much) is punishable in the hereafter.
I also doubt that by my mum cooking more then she should (which is wasteful (even if my dad forces himself to finish things off) given the amount we need to eat) will result in any further consequences other then having to pay more for food and thus poorly using resources means she has less resources to use as she pleases. This is the consequence of the waste. I doubt that there will be a follow up consequence in the hereafter.
If you don't mind me saying, I think (sorry if im wrong) that your thinking too much about something which should be fairly obvious to your reasoning and instincts.
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Do you think there is harm in buffeting once in a while? Or once a week? or everyday?
You've got your reason and intuitions, Go for it! If you feel like its ok to buffet then great! If you think i really shouldn't because im getting fat and i don't want to be fat, then don't! But then if you think the hell with aesthetics i wanna eat plenty everyday, then i would do it if i was you. Then later when you get sick you'll realise you ate too much and hence transgressed thus bettering your understanding for what is the right limit for you.
Also about waste, try not to waste. My mum cooks plenty of food, thus at the end there is much leftover. Naturally my dad sacrifices himself and eats more than he wants to just to finish the leftovers and prevent it from being binned. My mum says eat more to me and I refuse. I suggest we bin the food. They argue it's wasteful. So cook less next time ) because if you force yourself to eat more then you want to (in this case my dad) you end up transgressing (in a mild form). The sin here is overeating and has the consequence of bloating, possibly feeling sick or uncomfortable in general. I doubt that this (eating too much) is punishable in the hereafter.
I also doubt that by my mum cooking more then she should (which is wasteful (even if my dad forces himself to finish things off) given the amount we need to eat) will result in any further consequences other then having to pay more for food and thus poorly using resources means she has less resources to use as she pleases. This is the consequence of the waste. I doubt that there will be a follow up consequence in the hereafter.
If you don't mind me saying, I think (sorry if im wrong) that your thinking too much about something which should be fairly obvious to your reasoning and instincts.
I would be fine with this about it not being "harmful" if it wasn't the line and the end that states that God doesn't like such people.
Well to me eating until i'm absolutely full doesn't seem wrong and its only to the point of where i'm about to puke that I think is bad.
Of course I don't know how drinks even fit into this equation and I NEVER feel I have had enough to drink...heck most of the time I feel like wanting more food.
This is why I don't see how this can translate to "Excess" when such a line is a quite a burden on us. Also I can't buy it translates to both excess and waste at the same time otherwise I would think God would state them both as two separate words as He doesn't run out of words. If that word meant both excess AND waste at the same time, then sure, but it doesn't and it means excess OR waste OR transgress. It's one or the other, not both.
I also found a tafsir for the "transgression" version of this that explains it like this
That is, "Allah does not like those people who transgress the limits imposed by Him by making the lawful as unlawful. That is why He does not approve of those who put on a disheveled appearance or starve themselves or deprive themselves of the lawful and pure flings under the foolish belief that they are pleasing their Allah thereby. He does not demand this as essential for His worship; nay, He is pleased if one wears a decent dress and makes use of the pure things provided by Him. According to His Law, the only thing that is sinful is to transgress His limits by making the lawful unlawful or the unlawful lawful."
http//www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/7/index.html#sdfootnote21sym
Thus I would bring transgression back into the table as a possibility too.
Anyways keep the comments coming. I especially liked yours nimnimak_11 )
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Please understand that the root word of S-R-F and its uses have a dominant meaning of Exceeding/going beyond limits etc.
Again, check with the context of the commandment, if you say it means wasting, what is wasting directed at here? wasting what?
Eat and drink, but don't waste? waste what?
This last verb (waste) has to refer to the 2 preceding verbs (eat & drink),
EVEN IF we translated as "wasting", it would directly point back to wasting at EATING AND DRINKING.How can one waste when they eat and drink?
- one can refuse to eat (Under-eating)
- one can overeat and waste the food that could be given to someone else. (overeating)
i would think overeating/overdrinkingexceeding/transgressing would be more meaningful here.
What would be transgressing in eating/drinking
*If you shove food down your through or your kids throat during an all-you-can-eat buffet even after you guys are full, because hey! you don't have to pay for any more for eating more food!
*If you go to MakKah in saudi Arabia and drink large amounts of zamzam water, thinking that it would be positive for you!If you go to a buffet and shove food down your throat because you don't have to pay any extra, even after you're full, then that might be the point of transgressing.
There might be a clear distinction here between Eating and drinking based on your needs, vs eating and drinking because
hey! it's free food!
Hey! there is extra food!If you're a body builder and need to eat extra food, then there is a distinction here, because you have a need to eat food.
However, if you're an average guy shoving food down your throat because it's an all-you-can-eat food buffet, where you don't have to pay for eating more food, then that might be transgressing.
There might just be a clear distinction between need, want, and hey! it's free food!!!
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Please understand that the root word of S-R-F and its uses have a dominant meaning of Exceeding/going beyond limits etc.
WRONG! It can and HAS been translated to mean waste and transgression (as in breaking rules) time and time again in the Quran. Just look at the many different translations of this verse and see how a great chunk of them have translated it to wastehttp//www.islamawakened.com/quran/7/31/default.htm
So clearly "waste" is just as important. Hell its been used FAR more to translate to a "transgressor" as in someone to break rules then someone who does excess.
Heck the Free-minds version even translated 6141's version as "waste"
"And He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; and palm trees, and plants, all with different taste; and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful." (6141)
Or the fact that it translated to "transgression" as in breaking rules
"Say "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.""
"But none believed in Moses from his people except some from their descendants, because of their fear from Pharaoh and his leaders that he would persecute them. Pharaoh was high in the land, and he was of the tyrants." (1083)
"And when affliction touches man, he calls upon Us on his side or sitting or standing. But when We remove his affliction from him, he carries on as if he never called upon Us for an affliction which touched him! Thus it was made to appear good to the transgressors what they had done." (1012)
The only time is in 731 that the so called "excess" kicks in as the supposed meaning. But i'll get back to that in a moment.
Again, check with the context of the commandment, if you say it means wasting, what is wasting directed at here? wasting what?
Eat and drink, but don't waste? waste what?
This last verb (waste) has to refer to the 2 preceding verbs (eat & drink),
EVEN IF we translated as "wasting", it would directly point back to wasting at EATING AND DRINKING.How can one waste when they eat and drink?
- one can refuse to eat (Under-eating)
- one can overeat and waste the food that could be given to someone else. (overeating)
i would think overeating/overdrinkingexceeding/transgressing would be more meaningful here.
Wrong again. It's not hard to waste when you eat and drink. You take a bite a of a drumstick and you toss it away when 90% of it is still meat, THAT is wasting. You are drinking a coke and there is 90% coke left in it and you throw it away. THAT is wasting.
As for the two points
1)Well no doubt
2)Food is never a waste to eat. You eat and you get its nutrients and energy. Heck, coffee is my blue potion and I drink it ALOT and feel amazing each time thanks to the caffeine ingredient. Let alone the fact that food makes one feel and enjoy Gods provisions, which is NEVER a waste. It only is a waste if you throw it up which is when you have truly exceeded and this fits well with how God made our bodies to know that we have exceed when we are about the throw up. That is the only possible waste in over eating. Otherwise if food is there for you to eat, you eat it. I believe a lot of us live in First World Nations on this forum and it should be clear that food is quite easy to obtain even for the poor as we have soup kitchens and and many other goods. The only ones who are hungry are the ones who aren't in such nations which is where we donate money and thus where our charity kicks in for them to go buy food. God has given us food and if its available we should eat from it. It makes far more sense to eat it. If it did mean excess, then you can eat 10% of a burger and throw 90% out cause wasting isn't mentioned. The only logical word IS waste and it cannot mean both waste and exceed at the same time otherwise God who as we've said many times on this forum doesn't run out of words and would use two different words to state it for us humans. If it did mean both waste AND exceed at the same time, I would agree but it means waste OR exceed OR transgression at separate times.What would be transgressing in eating/drinking
*If you shove food down your through or your kids throat during an all-you-can-eat buffet even after you guys are full, because hey! you don't have to pay for any more for eating more food!
*If you go to MakKah in saudi Arabia and drink large amounts of zamzam water, thinking that it would be positive for you!If you go to a buffet and shove food down your throat because you don't have to pay any extra, even after you're full, then that might be the point of transgressing.
There might be a clear distinction here between Eating and drinking based on your needs, vs eating and drinking because
hey! it's free food!
Hey! there is extra food!If you're a body builder and need to eat extra food, then there is a distinction here, because you have a need to eat food.
However, if you're an average guy shoving food down your throat because it's an all-you-can-eat food buffet, where you don't have to pay for eating more food, then that might be transgressing.
There might just be a clear distinction between need, want, and hey! it's free food!!!
and again this is why "exceed" doesn't make sense. We WANT the free food. We see all this different type and we want to try them all and enjoy them all and we we to feel a bit of pleasure with eat lovely bite. Plus what do you think happens when all that free food is not eaten by the end of the day at all you can eat restaurants? They eaten as much as possible by the people who work there and throw it away. The same goes for fast food restaurants and this is all because of the policy of serving fresh food. Thus we should eat what God has given us and not let it go to waste. And again if we were to go by the policy of excess look how silly it would be
-Going to meet your friend over a cup of coffee? TOO BAD! you can't have it cause you aren't thirsty and just want to sit with your friend and over some nice coffee. If you drink that coffee you'd be EXCEEDING the limits.
-You wanna watch a movie and want to have a bit of popcorn? TOO BAD! you aren't hungry, so NO POPCORN FOR YOU! and while we are at it NO SNACKS FOR YOU! NO COOKIES, CHIPS, OR NACHOS FOR YOU! otherwise you will be exceeding the limits by not being hungry and simply wanna enjoy some small food.
-It's a hot day and you are really warm right now but not thirsty and want to get a cold can of Coke. WELL TOO BAD! You aren't thirsty and you simply wanna cool off and enjoy a drink when you don't need it. If you do it you exceed the limits.- Your child is asking for a lollipop when he finished his dinner? TOO BAD! he doesn't need a lollipop as he isn't hungry and if he takes it, he will have exceeded the limits.
Now back to the line about how only 731 is only translated as "excess". The one and only verse and arguably 6141 if you choose change that to excess as well. Otherwise everything else in the Quran has it translated to "transgression" meaning to break Gods rules (sinning).
Most haven't translated 731 nor 6141 to Trangression but two tafsirs that I did find state it like this
"That is, "Allah does not like those people who transgress the limits imposed by Him by making the lawful as unlawful. That is why He does not approve of those who put on a disheveled appearance or starve themselves or deprive themselves of the lawful and pure flings under the foolish belief that they are pleasing their Allah thereby. He does not demand this as essential for His worship; nay, He is pleased if one wears a decent dress and makes use of the pure things provided by Him. According to His Law, the only thing that is sinful is to transgress His limits by making the lawful unlawful or the unlawful lawful."http//www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/7/index.html#sdfootnote21sym
AND
(O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment) wear your clothes (at every place of worship) at the time of every prayer and upon circumambulation of the Ka'bah, (and eat) of meat and fat (and drink) of milk, (but be not prodigal) do not declare unlawful wholesome foods, meat and fat. (Lo! He loveth not the prodigals) those who transgress by leaving the lawful and going after the unlawful..
http//www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=7&tAyahNo=31&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
*Note the translation of the second one has led the brackets which are the Quranic verse to be translated incorrectly according to the tafsir which clearly has taken it as meaning "transgression"
These state that it means to not transgress as in not to eat the forbidden foods and drinks like alcohol and pork.
To me Waste so far seems to make the most sense. Transgression would make sense about as much but I need to analyze 6141 a bit more before I can decide on that one. I honestly cannot see how "exceed" can make any sense via the statements stated above. Course I'm not 100% sure but so far this is how i'm seeing it for now. Upon Gods mercy, we have been given these provisions and unlike how some of the traditionalists like to make us think, I believe God has given us things to enjoy in life too like food and thus we should enjoy it and not try to waste it.
PHEW wall of text. I am sorry XD But yeah what do you guys think?
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I would be fine with this about it not being "harmful" if it wasn't the line and the end that states that God doesn't like such people.
The God doesn't like sinners. To transgress is a sin. To eat transgressively or excessively is a sin. But my point is that it only becomes a case of transgression when your reason submits to your desire rather than it be the other way round. If you reason that there is nothing wrong with eating x amount of food, then there is no transgression IMO. Unless your reasoning was corrupted by desire or in other words in submission to your desire.
Well to me eating until i'm absolutely full doesn't seem wrong and its only to the point of where i'm about to puke that I think is bad.
If thats how you reason it, then IMO there isn't a transgression going on. So long as you are aware and are enjoying the provision without losing the abillity to stop when needed.
In my case i remember saying to myself i'l eat one fifth of this ben and jerry ice cream tub and no more. But I ate half the tub. Afterwards there was a slight (very slight) feeling of disappointment in myself (and i can imagine a slight bit of dislike from the God towards me as i think it would have been better in the sight of God if i was in controle. But this was nothing major as the transgression was minor).
But then i thought, i'l make it up at the gym. The lack of will here means a greater will used at the gym where i achieve more than the usual amount. Thus no transgression or it gets weighed out by my gym session. But having said that, if i had decided before hand to eat the whole tub thinking i don't really care about health issues in this instance (reaching this conlusion with good reasoning) then i would not think that i would have trangressed. Its only because that my desire took over from my reason that i considered my act as transgressive.
Of course I don't know how drinks even fit into this equation and I NEVER feel I have had enough to drink...heck most of the time I feel like wanting more food.
I apply the same sort of approach with drinks also.
This is why I don't see how this can translate to "Excess" when such a line is a quite a burden on us. Also I can't buy it translates to both excess and waste at the same time otherwise I would think God would state them both as two separate words as He doesn't run out of words. If that word meant both excess AND waste at the same time, then sure, but it doesn't and it means excess OR waste OR transgress. It's one or the other, not both.
Can't disagree with that.
I also found a tafsir for the "transgression" version of this that explains it like this
That is, "Allah does not like those people who transgress the limits imposed by Him by making the lawful as unlawful. That is why He does not approve of those who put on a disheveled appearance or starve themselves or deprive themselves of the lawful and pure flings under the foolish belief that they are pleasing their Allah thereby. He does not demand this as essential for His worship; nay, He is pleased if one wears a decent dress and makes use of the pure things provided by Him. According to His Law, the only thing that is sinful is to transgress His limits by making the lawful unlawful or the unlawful lawful."
http//www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/7/index.html#sdfootnote21sym
Thus I would bring transgression back into the table as a possibility too.
Might have misunderstood the above but i really don't think that the only case of transgression is when someone prohibits that which is lawful. I think its one case of transgression but I also think there are many other cases that can count as transgression.
Anyways keep the comments coming. I especially liked yours nimnimak_11
Thanks
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The God doesn't like sinners. To transgress is a sin. To eat transgressively or excessively is a sin. But my point is that it only becomes a case of transgression when your reason submits to your desire rather than it be the other way round. If you reason that there is nothing wrong with eating x amount of food, then there is no transgression IMO. Unless your reasoning was corrupted by desire or in other words in submission to your desire.
That is if you view the word as meaning "excessive", which I don't and honestly doesn't make sense if it is as such. Also lets keep the words "excessive" and "Transgression" seperate as transgression refers to breaking Gods rules while excessive refers to just do something a lot which can include stuff like sleep or watching a movie. As for what you wrote, it is did mean "excessive", if its then up to what a person thinks, then to me excessive is when one is about to put another bit of food in their mouth that they will puke level. Yet that wouldn't make sense with drinks as I never ever can have enough to drink. I'm pretty much always drinking something whether its water, coke or coffee. Thus why I believe waste fits it better as you can't really over do on drinking. Or even Transgression (as in breaking Gods rules) fit better as you cannot eat or drink the forbidden things.
If thats how you reason it, then IMO there isn't a transgression going on. So long as you are aware and are enjoying the provision without losing the abillity to stop when needed.
In my case i remember saying to myself i'l eat one fifth of this ben and jerry ice cream tub and no more. But I ate half the tub. Afterwards there was a slight (very slight) feeling of disappointment in myself (and i can imagine a slight bit of dislike from the God towards me as i think it would have been better in the sight of God if i was in controle. But this was nothing major as the transgression was minor).
If we are going by "excess" I wouldn't say that was excess at all. You were capable of eating that and you did. No sin there IMO and again I believe waste fits better and thus if you threw it away at 50% I believe it would have been a sin rather.
But then i thought, i'l make it up at the gym. The lack of will here means a greater will used at the gym where i achieve more than the usual amount. Thus no transgression or it gets weighed out by my gym session. But having said that, if i had decided before hand to eat the whole tub thinking i don't really care about health issues in this instance (reaching this conlusion with good reasoning) then i would not think that i would have trangressed. Its only because that my desire took over from my reason that i considered my act as transgressive.
I apply the same sort of approach with drinks also.
Can't disagree with that.
But then that would be excess against yourself cause you gained weight and that's something world and not related to religious matters. It doesn't matter how much or how little you decide to eat, it all comes down to the limit of what God considers as "too much" I would think and of course I would think that is a burden upon itself and makes little sense as the body will already tell you if you ate enough and to not eat more or it will puke. Thus why waste makes sense.
Might have misunderstood the above but i really don't think that the only case of transgression is when someone prohibits that which is lawful. I think its one case of transgression but I also think there are many other cases that can count as transgression.
Thanks )
Well no doubt there are many different cases of transgression as the Quran has stated what is forbidden and what isn't. As for those tafsirs that talk about "Transgression" as the word, the way I think they are stating it is that its means to "trangress by eating and drinking the unlawful or transgress by not allowing yourself to eat or drink" Of course the second part is a little odd but the first part makes sense.
Anyways you bring up a lot of good points. I'm really liking this D
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Why are you saying that i am wrong? Yes my views would be contrasting to yours, but please do not tell me that i am wrong.
You are looking at Translations? There would be different understandings.
In 6141 and in 731 it is either talking about eating or eating and drinking.
Some might Translate it as "waste", however, from the context, "wasting" would not point to anything back.
Eat and drink, but don't waste?..................waste what?The uses of the root S-R-F conveys mostly the meaning of Excessivness/Crossing the lines/Trans-gressing/beyond limits.
And please do not try to come up with counter arguments about eating popcorn and lolipops and drinking coffee. This might just be pitiful. overeating would be from excessiveness.
If you eat and eat and eat, because you are offered free food, then that might just be excessiveness...
would like to get abnormal blood sugar levels and even diabetes, hypertension from too much sodium consumption, blocked arteries from fat setteling in from eating too much fats...
Moderation would be key here, and your personal need.
Whether you think it is expressiveness or wasting, overeating is a bad thing, it may eventually lead to diseases..........
If overeating lead to bad things then obviously it might just be a sin, because it is sin which may be punished for, and not good deeds!"...Don't throw yourself into destruction..." (2195)
Overeating leads to diseases = destruction
Please understand this, overeating is not good for your health. Whether its a commandment or not. Take care of your body that God Almighty gave you.
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Why are you saying that i am wrong? Yes my views would be contrasting to yours, but please do not tell me that i am wrong.
Sorry, I didn't mean about our ideas of what it means cause there is no problem there and this is a nice open debate, but I mean in taking that excess or transgression are the only important translations to that word when clearly as I showed many translators also find "waste" quite important too including the free-minds Quran in 6141.
You are looking at Translations? There would be different understandings.
In 6141 and in 731 it is either talking about eating or eating and drinking.
Some might Translate it as "waste", however, from the context, "wasting" would not point to anything back.
Eat and drink, but don't waste?..................waste what?So by your logic you are saying that if 731 translates to "excess" it automatically refers to eating and drinking yet if it translates to "waste" it doesn't!? O_o
It's quite crystal clear what it means when one puts waste after eating and drinking. For example My mother puts a whole cake in front of me and says "eat, but don't waste" Which I would take as not throwing it away. It's quite clear, don't try to twist it to make no sense what it would mean by not using the word waste. 6141 was translated on this site to waste and everyone understood it no complaints, so why not 731?
The context is the main reason why we even bring up the words "excess" or "waste" as that's all you can really do with food and drinks, otherwise we would go straight ahead and translate that word to "transgression" as in breaking Gods rules as it has been translated to just that everywhere else in the Quran.
The uses of the root S-R-F conveys mostly the meaning of Excessivness/Crossing the lines/Trans-gressing/beyond limits.
But clearly it has a secondary meaning as used by SO many that is pretty freakin important too. And remember the word "transgression" can refer to breaking Gods Rules as used in many other verses as I pointed out in my last reply to you so if not waste, it can also mean that as these two Tafsirs have said in their input
"That is, "Allah does not like those people who transgress the limits imposed by Him by making the lawful as unlawful. That is why He does not approve of those who put on a disheveled appearance or starve themselves or deprive themselves of the lawful and pure flings under the foolish belief that they are pleasing their Allah thereby. He does not demand this as essential for His worship; nay, He is pleased if one wears a decent dress and makes use of the pure things provided by Him. According to His Law, the only thing that is sinful is to transgress His limits by making the lawful unlawful or the unlawful lawful."
http//www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/7/index.html#sdfootnote21sym
AND
(O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment) wear your clothes (at every place of worship) at the time of every prayer and upon circumambulation of the Ka'bah, (and eat) of meat and fat (and drink) of milk, (but be not prodigal) do not declare unlawful wholesome foods, meat and fat. (Lo! He loveth not the prodigals) those who transgress by leaving the lawful and going after the unlawful..
http//www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=7&tAyahNo=31&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
*Note the translation of the second one has led the brackets which are the Quranic verse to be translated incorrectly according to the tafsir which clearly has taken it as meaning "transgression"
These state that it means to not transgress as in not to eat the forbidden foods and drinks like alcohol and pork.
And yes I just copypasted that from the last reply.
And please do not try to come up with counter arguments about eating popcorn and lolipops and drinking coffee. This might just be pitiful. overeating would be from excessiveness.
And why not? It's a good example of why using the word "excessive" is just silly. You stated that excessive would be beyond you needs. One eats cookies and other snacks when they already are full, thus by that logic you can't eat those. Hell, people drink coffee just to feel good and not out of thirst... I drink water or coke when thirsty and coffee when I just wanna relax and enjoy ^_^ (the idea of coffee just made me quite happy for some reason XD) Drinking is a major reason why excessive makes no sense as you really can't get excessive with drinking. I can keep drinking and drinking and never feel like i've had enough. It's quite a burden on us otherwise to not be able to enjoy the provisions of God just because we can move and aren't starving. One can waste drinks though by throwing them in the trash when still half full or transgress as in breaking Gods rules by drinking alcohol.
If you eat and eat and eat, because you are offered free food, then that might just be excessiveness...
would like to get abnormal blood sugar levels and even diabetes, hypertension from too much sodium consumption, blocked arteries from fat setteling in from eating too much fats...
Moderation would be key here, and your personal need.
Whether you think it is expressiveness or wasting, overeating is a bad thing, it may eventually lead to diseases..........
If overeating lead to bad things then obviously it might just be a sin, because it is sin which may be punished for, and not good deeds!"...Don't throw yourself into destruction..." (2195)
Overeating leads to diseases = destruction
Please understand this, overeating is not good for your health. Whether its a commandment or not. Take care of your body that God Almighty gave you.
ooh so you finally brought in the health issue. Alright let me state something first off. I'm pretty well off health wise, but yet once in a while i'll say, "I'M GONNA GO TO BUFFET AND EAT UNTIL I CAN'T EAT ANOTHER BITE!" And thats all I eat that day. Yet my weight doesn't alter nor does anything else. Some times one can eat once in a while alot. Its not good if you do it everyday. Oh and as for that verse about throwing yourself into destruction, that refers to the fact that one who is already on the path. For example if you doctor tells you to stop eating this thing and you continue to do so, then you are sinning according to that verse as you are on a path to destruction. Or lets bring in other matters. If it isn't killing you, then there is no harm. If its looking like its gonna be dangerous then stop. I clearly am careful of that and haven't let something like that happen.
Regardless this verse has nothing to do with health. People overeat from time to time and are fine. Heck its sometimes rude to not overeat when a friend or family makes a feast for you and you are full but to make them happy you eat it down so you won't appear rude.
I agree by all means that overeating all the time is bad but its only turns into a sin once health problems kick in. We shouldn't say someone who overeats without the health problems a sinner until they get the health problems. I've been over eating once in a while for much of my life. Of course that's only over eating. Over drinking doesn't lead to problems unless done consequtively like getting waterlogged by drinking 8 glasses of water non-stop, but no one really does that and they take their time little by little to drink.
Thus why "excess" doesn't make sense to be the word to use with 731 as over eating time to time is harmless, is rude to some people who made you a feast, snacking is something we all do from a simple cookie to a cake when we are full cause we just love it, we may be full and we have food on our plates that we don't wanna throw out so we force it down for just that, and drinking really cannot be overdone considering we are 70-80% water and thus we if we aren't thirsty we still WANT to drink including coffee with a friend and such.
Waste therefore makes more sense and Transgression as in breaking Gods rules also make sense but not "excess" for it would be way too huge a burden on us if that was the case.
**Also do you think you can look in the "showing off" topic I have up as I have a follow up question there i'd like you to see ) thanks ^_^
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Wasting food and overeating might be both bad things.
God cites to avoid sins that are obvious, as well as sins which might not be so obvious.Overeating and overdrinking are not good things.
you can actually die from overdrinking water.
with food, moderation would be key.Coffee and cookies, and moderate snacking might be ok, God is the most merciful being, and so, your citation of snacking and coffee would sound somewhat Pitiful to me, God readily would be forgiving. you may also ask for forgiveness.
your health might be in good stance for now, but misusing it would not be so wise.
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But then that would be excess against yourself cause you gained weight and that's something world and not related to religious matters. It doesn't matter how much or how little you decide to eat, it all comes down to the limit of what God considers as "too much" I would think and of course I would think that is a burden upon itself and makes little sense as the body will already tell you if you ate enough and to not eat more or it will puke. Thus why waste makes sense.
My understanding is that the limit that the God consider as "too much" is determined by the physiology someone has been given. For a diabetic the God has set different limits to someone with no health issues. I don't see one external objective limit set by the God for everyone as realistic to be honest.
I would say the same thing about waste. There is no external objective limit determined. Just a proportion or ratio. A ratio or proportion to the quantity of people in the world and the quantity of resources available. The greater the number of people and the lesser the resources available, the less room there is for waste and the more sinful it is. By this I mean that to waste a small amount would be too much. But if the situation was such that there was not many people and much resource, then there is more acceptability for waste. More could be wasted befored being deemed as sinful IMO.
In conclusion my view is that it's not a sin unless you or others can reasonablly view your character as wasteful or in the case that we were to take the meaning as excess then indulgence.