7:31: Do not eat excesively? or do not waste food?
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Wasting food and overeating might be both bad things.
God cites to avoid sins that are obvious, as well as sins which might not be so obvious.That's your opinion on it being a so called obvious sin, I do not see a problem is over-eating as long as it doesn't lead to your doom. So I over it once in a while, I am not killing myself by doing that as I stay moderate otherwise.
But you still haven't proven that excess eating is a sin. So far i've shown waste to make sense, transgression (as in breaking Gods rules) to make sense but excess eating is a no unless it eats up hitting the part that starts hurting you.
Overeating and overdrinking are not good things.
you can actually die from overdrinking water.
with food, moderation would be key.Overeating is no good if it leads you to health problems.
No doubt there that too much water can kill you, as I mentioned that 8 cup example done consecutively. But that is only consecutively, and that in the end is like drinking poison and thus where that verse about destroying yourself kicks in. I drink beverages at all times throughout the day without ever feeling i've had enough. Never consecutively but I drink coffee when i'm not thirsty either. Thus I would be overdrinking as I didn't need any? Thus why this logic doesn't work with 731 and the verse about "destroying yourself" kicks in once it starts hurting me.
Coffee and cookies, and moderate snacking might be ok, God is the most merciful being, and so, your citation of snacking and coffee would sound somewhat Pitiful to me, God readily would be forgiving. you may also ask for forgiveness.
your health might be in good stance for now, but misusing it would not be so wise.
You only say "might" be okay and you are saying that we should seek forgiveness because we crave a little bit of coffee and cookies? That sounds quite silly. God said he won't burden us like this by checking to see if we have an appetite or not and to be scared to even touch a cookie just cause we aren't hungry. For one as a film maker, coffee is HIGHLY needed to stay strong and working and overeating is also somewhat needed too in order to have the energy to work. As long as one doesn't let it destroy them. We shouldn't go around labeling things as haram without full concrete proof as the Quran has stated and I still see no real evidence here. Waste and Transgression (The type where you break Gods rules) make the most sense for 731 and 6141.
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My understanding is that the limit that the God consider as "too much" is determined by the physiology someone has been given. For a diabetic the God has set different limits to someone with no health issues. I don't see one external objective limit set by the God for everyone as realistic to be honest.
I would say the same thing about waste. There is no external objective limit determined. Just a proportion or ratio. A ratio or proportion to the quantity of people in the world and the quantity of resources available. The greater the number of people and the lesser the resources available, the less room there is for waste and the more sinful it is. By this I mean that to waste a small amount would be too much. But if the situation was such that there was not many people and much resource, then there is more acceptability for waste. More could be wasted befored being deemed as sinful IMO.
In conclusion my view is that it's not a sin unless you or others can reasonablly view your character as wasteful or in the case that we were to take the meaning as excess then indulgence.
I like your view ) Well considering we are in first world nations (at least I think most of us are here in such nations) food is quite plentiful and even the poor are fed thanks to soup kitchens, so the demand for food isn't high at all here.
Waste wise, it is somewhat an issue but nothing that hurts us so far but still not good to ever throw away 90% of your meal in the trash. I understand if crumbs are left, or unused sauce (ketchup packets for example) or a small bit of lettuce.
Course as you said God has given us the ability to know when too much is too much and thus in the end works quite well with the word "waste" as it is too much when it leads to throwing up and thus that throw up is waste since food spilled on the floor or toilet without any used for your body. As you said, diabetics have their own special limits too. )
What do you think?
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I like your view ) Well considering we are in first world nations (at least I think most of us are here in such nations) food is quite plentiful and even the poor are fed thanks to soup kitchens, so the demand for food isn't high at all here.
Waste wise, it is somewhat an issue but nothing that hurts us so far but still not good to ever throw away 90% of your meal in the trash. I understand if crumbs are left, or unused sauce (ketchup packets for example) or a small bit of lettuce.
Course as you said God has given us the ability to know when too much is too much and thus in the end works quite well with the word "waste" as it is too much when it leads to throwing up and thus that throw up is waste since food spilled on the floor or toilet without any used for your body. As you said, diabetics have their own special limits too. )
What do you think?
About what?
It looks like your opting for the translation as being waste. I prefer to take it as transgression because in other places of the Quran it's often used to semantically mean transgression. That doesn't necessarily mean that it cannot mean waste but it decreases the probability. But what makes me more certain is that the word transgress encompasses being wasteful as that is a kind of transgression. But the concept of wasteful does not cover all the possible meanings and things the concept of transgress covers. So to me it makes more sense to take the word as transgress. Thus if someone eats too much or wastes too much (which is highly context dependent and to a good extent subjective) then they have transgressed.Is that what you meant by what i think?
Now what do you think?
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About what?
It looks like your opting for the translation as being waste. I prefer to take it as transgression because in other places of the Quran it's often used to semantically mean transgression. That doesn't necessarily mean that it cannot mean waste but it decreases the probability. But what makes me more certain is that the word transgress encompasses being wasteful as that is a kind of transgression. But the concept of wasteful does not cover all the possible meanings and things the concept of transgress covers. So to me it makes more sense to take the word as transgress. Thus if someone eats too much or wastes too much (which is highly context dependent and to a good extent subjective) then they have transgressed.Is that what you meant by what i think?
Now what do you think?
)Realize that the word transgression used elsewhere in the Quran refers to "breaking Gods rules" as in if we were to use it with this, it would rather look to refer to not breaking the rules of eating and drinking which refer to not eating stuff like pork and alcohol and such.
Regardless the way you stated trangress though, that would only possibly mean eating too much and doesn't cover waste considering the context is talking about eating and thus if we were to use that meaning of trangress, it would refer only to eating too much as waste isn't mentioned there at all. Thus It cannot mean both.
Trangression in that breaking Gods rules makes quite a bit of sense though and if we go by that, something like waste and excess eating come under our judgement of how much and when we can and cannot do it i'd think as we have verses that refer to us not corrupting the earth (waste does just that) and one about hurting our bodies (which excess eating does), cause afterall if we do it once in a while, we aren't really hurting ourselves nor the earth but if we did it all the time, then we would be.
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Realize that the word transgression used elsewhere in the Quran refers to "breaking Gods rules" as in if we were to use it with this, it would rather look to refer to not breaking the rules of eating and drinking which refer to not eating stuff like pork and alcohol and such.
I'm pretty sure that I agree on the idea that transgression is a reference to breaking God's rules. I agree with pork (not so much with alcohol) being prohibited and thus a transgression if we consume it unjustifiably. But I also believe that each individual has a nature and that with that nature comes a rough appropriate limit to how much and what they should eat and drink. This nature is given by God. Thus to transgress that limit is to go against the limits set by the God.
Regardless the way you stated trangress though, that would only possibly mean eating too much and doesn't cover waste considering the context is talking about eating and thus if we were to use that meaning of trangress, it would refer only to eating too much as waste isn't mentioned there at all. Thus It cannot mean both.
Ok I agree but to waste food or anything is still a transgression. So we whilst we might say that its not covered by this verse, we can still reasonably say that for someone who relflects on the nature of what could potentailly be understood as a transgression, the wasting of food or anything (again depending on the quantity and quality of resource available and needed and how careless or carefule someone is regarding the resource) is a transgression and thus the breaking of God's limit.
Trangression in that breaking Gods rules makes quite a bit of sense though and if we go by that, something like waste and excess eating come under our judgement of how much and when we can and cannot do it i'd think as we have verses that refer to us not corrupting the earth (waste does just that) and one about hurting our bodies (which excess eating does), cause afterall if we do it once in a while, we aren't really hurting ourselves nor the earth but if we did it all the time, then we would be.
I agree.
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I'm pretty sure that I agree on the idea that transgression is a reference to breaking God's rules. I agree with pork (not so much with alcohol) being prohibited and thus a transgression if we consume it unjustifiably. But I also believe that each individual has a nature and that with that nature comes a rough appropriate limit to how much and what they should eat and drink. This nature is given by God. Thus to transgress that limit is to go against the limits set by the God.
Why don't you believe alcohol is forbidden? There are verses that forbid the consumption of intoxicants.
Regardless, yeah I agrees that our bodies tell us when we've had enough, which I like to call getting to the level of "puking" which we should avoid. But Transgression doesn't mean to go beyond a limit in the sense of the word of "breaking Gods rules" as we transgress a lot of things in life from wasting time, to sleeping alot, walking, exercise, playing etc... but none clearly have been described as transgressions in that sense of the word, so if we are to label 731 with the word "Transgression" under the sense of the word that it means breaking Gods rules, then it would apply to what we eat and drink but don't eat or drink the forbidden stuff.
Ok I agree but to waste food or anything is still a transgression. So we whilst we might say that its not covered by this verse, we can still reasonably say that for someone who relflects on the nature of what could potentailly be understood as a transgression, the wasting of food or anything (again depending on the quantity and quality of resource available and needed and how careless or carefule someone is regarding the resource) is a transgression and thus the breaking of God's limit.
Realize we cannot take what can "potentially" be as fact until we are 100% sure, but understand that if there were two different ideas which are "wasting" and "over eating" they would have been listed as seperate ideas and not throw a word that is used for going over the limits to cover both as that can get pretty vague. Thus if we we were to go with "transgression" as in overeating/drinking then we can't do waste as waste is a seperate meaning for that same word but not the same meaning as that. If we were to go with waste, we can't go with "over eating" as that word can mean "waste" or "excess" never "waste" AND "excess".
I agree.
Guess we are slowly coming to understanding with each other eh. I've learned quite a bit and i'm loving this discussion we've been having ) My only issue is that if we do go with it meaning "transgression" on 731 like almost everywhere else in the Quran, 6141 is still and issue as that refers to fruits and vegetables but you really can't break Gods rules eating those. Course it also mentions giving your share of them in 6141 which it might be referring to that rather but i'm not so sure /
And He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; and palm trees, and plants, all with different taste; and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful. (6141)
This is the free-minds translation that translates it as waste meaning do not waste the fruits and vegetables, but if we were to change that to "transgress" as in breaking Gods rules, it wouldn't make as much sense unless we were to aim it somehow at the give due on the day of harvest part but i'm not so sure.
What do you think? )
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Why don't you believe alcohol is forbidden? There are verses that forbid the consumption of intoxicants.
Thats a seperate discussion which we could have in another thread. But from the verses it does not appear to be prohibited as far as i can see.
Regardless, yeah I agrees that our bodies tell us when we've had enough, which I like to call getting to the level of "puking" which we should avoid. But Transgression doesn't mean to go beyond a limit in the sense of the word of "breaking Gods rules" as we transgress a lot of things in life from wasting time, to sleeping alot, walking, exercise, playing etc... but none clearly have been described as transgressions in that sense of the word, so if we are to label 731 with the word "Transgression" under the sense of the word that it means breaking Gods rules, then it would apply to what we eat and drink but don't eat or drink the forbidden stuff.
The view I have of transgression is that it can vary in degrees. So sleeping alot and so on IMO are transgressions but the only difference is in their degrees. If you oversleep in one occasion its a really really small transgression if the consequences are really small. Your oversleeping even in that one instance is a show of a lack of discpline or knowledge or whatever. Since we can view that it is better of the character who does not oversleep even in one occasion in comaprison to the one who does, it can be said that oversleeping even in one occasion is a negative thing, a small transgression (but so small a transgression that its nothing to worry about IMO)
But say oversleep all the time so your fall behind on so much, then the transgression increases. Naturally the consequences also. Its bad on the character and so bad in the sight of the God IMO.
Realize we cannot take what can "potentially" be as fact until we are 100% sure,
Very rarely can we be 100% sure. We just have to decide whats most reasonable. Probability of truth vs. consequences of carrying out the potential truth.
but understand that if there were two different ideas which are "wasting" and "over eating" they would have been listed as seperate ideas and not throw a word that is used for going over the limits to cover both as that can get pretty vague. Thus if we we were to go with "transgression" as in overeating/drinking then we can't do waste as waste is a seperate meaning for that same word but not the same meaning as that. If we were to go with waste, we can't go with "over eating" as that word can mean "waste" or "excess" never "waste" AND "excess".
I honestly don't think its vague. To overdo anything is to transgress and i can't think of seperate words for this. Where someone transgresses it is pretty clear IMO. Its just the scope of the word is wide but this doesn't mean its controversial. In that verse 731 overeating is used as an example of how someone could transgress. Whether the verse is also meant to include the idea of waste, im starting to think yes because by eating food your consuming it. To over eat, is to overconsume, to overconsume is to waste hence transgression.
This is the free-minds translation that translates it as waste meaning do not waste the fruits and vegetables, but if we were to change that to "transgress" as in breaking Gods rules, it wouldn't make as much sense unless we were to aim it somehow at the give due on the day of harvest part but i'm not so sure.
What do you think?
Why not? I honestly think it makes sense. Do not transgress would entail that we don't give away too much, eat too much dispose of pointlessly and so on. These are covered by the notion of transgression and i don't see how this makes less sense then to narrow it to just one aspect of transgressing with food. I genuinely think it makes more sense to not narrow the notion down.
I've learned quite a bit and i'm loving this discussion we've been having
Thats good to know. I'm also enjoying this discussion and I think we will come to an understanding with each other )
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Thats a seperate discussion which we could have in another thread. But from the verses it does not appear to be prohibited as far as i can see.
The view I have of transgression is that it can vary in degrees. So sleeping alot and so on IMO are transgressions but the only difference is in their degrees. If you oversleep in one occasion its a really really small transgression if the consequences are really small. Your oversleeping even in that one instance is a show of a lack of discpline or knowledge or whatever. Since we can view that it is better of the character who does not oversleep even in one occasion in comaprison to the one who does, it can be said that oversleeping even in one occasion is a negative thing, a small transgression (but so small a transgression that its nothing to worry about IMO)
But say oversleep all the time so your fall behind on so much, then the transgression increases. Naturally the consequences also. Its bad on the character and so bad in the sight of the God IMO.
Are you freakin kidding me!? Don't try to put words in Gods mouth like that. If he hasn't forbidden something, you have no right to say its not allowed either. God made no mention of sleep or whatever else being forbidden. So don't say too much of something or too little of something isn't allowed if God hasn't made a mention of it. That's as bad as when the sunnis try to claim drawing and music aren't allowed when the Quran makes no mention of them. Doing too much of something is bad to you? That's only bad to you and the culture of this society, God made no mention of too much of anything is bad. I guess the one who studies, the one who paints and the one who works more than the average person are bad in Gods eyes even though he made no mention of it? Or better yet, someone who have too much faith is bad in Gods eyes!? Thats pretty damm ridiculous.
Sorry if i'm being rude but I really don't like hearing people make up things and deem that it is not allowed by God. Remember there are verses that forbid people from making what is halal as haram and what is haram as halal. As well the Quran has stated to not speak of things you don't have knowledge of, so don't be saying God doesn't like something when you have no idea of it as it wasn't stated in the book. Oversleeping may be an issue to the manmade cultures of society but sure isn't EVER mentioned by God to be bad. As long as you follow his rules, everything else is legal, so there is no "sleeping too much".
Falling behind on life? discipline of character? lack of knowledge? All that is manmade standards. As long as you follow God's rules as the book says, there is no too much or too little of anything unless said otherwise in the book and sleeping is not mentioned whatsoever. So don't take "transgression" just because you've heard it before used together with the words "Sin" "haram" or "breaking Gods rules" to mean that any sort of transgression is just that, as transgression to Gods book is only a sin. That is it. There is a nice article on Free-minds about halal and haram. Read that I suggest.
Again sorry if i'm rude here, that kinda struck a nerve on me due to my past experiences with traditionalists who make up such things and worse.
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Are you freakin kidding me!? Don't try to put words in Gods mouth like that. If he hasn't forbid sonething you have no right to say its not allowed either.
Agreed. No one should prohibit something that is not prohibited.
God made no mention of sleep or whatever else. So don't say too much of something or too little of something isn't allowed if God hasn't made a mention of it.
My point is that too much of something or too little of something is a transgression and transgression is mentioned. The only thing is that people are different and so what may be too much or too little for someone will be the right amount for another. Thats why someone should be very careful before saying to someone your overdoing or underdoing something and the person who outright prohibits something for someone, better have rock solid reasons for doing so.
Thats as bad if not worse then when sunnis try to claim drawing and music aren't allowed when the Quran makes no mention of them. Doing too much of something is bad to you? Thats only bad to you, God made no mention of too much of anything is bad. I guess the one who studies, the one who paints and the one who works more than the average person are sinners to you? Thats pretty damm ridiculous.
No, thats why in my other post in addition to this one, I mentioned that transgression is subject and context dependent.
Sorry i'm being rude
Don't worry about it buddy ) Just a misunderstanding (i think). It's why you gotta be careful before getting passionate in a discussion. Misunderstandings are common and judgements should ideally be postivie towards others. Enhances the chances of peace and lessens the chance of conflict.
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Agreed. No one should prohibit something that is not prohibited.
My point is that too much of something or too little of something is a transgression and transgression is mentioned. The only thing is that people are different and so what may be too much or too little for someone will be the right amount for another. Thats why someone should be very careful before saying to someone your overdoing or underdoing something and the person who outright prohibits something for someone, better have rock solid reasons for doing so.
No, thats why in my other post in addition to this one, I mentioned that transgression is subject and context dependent.Don't worry about it buddy Just a misunderstanding (i think). It's why you gotta be careful before getting passionate in a discussion. Misunderstandings are common and judgements should ideally be postivie towards others. Enhances the chances of peace and lessens the chance of conflict.
Very rarely can we be 100% sure. We just have to decide whats most reasonable. Probability of truth vs. consequences of carrying out the potential truth.
I guess, but we wanna get as sure as possible which is why I post a lot of questions here.
I honestly don't think its vague. To overdo anything is to transgress and i can't think of seperate words for this. Where someone transgresses it is pretty clear IMO. Its just the scope of the word is wide but this doesn't mean its controversial. In that verse 731 overeating is used as an example of how someone could transgress. Whether the verse is also meant to include the idea of waste, im starting to think yes because by eating food your consuming it. To over eat, is to overconsume, to overconsume is to waste hence transgression.
Not true. Transgressing in this context can mean going over in "eating" and "drinking" as it never mentioned waste. It didn't say "throw things away, but don't exceed" it said "eat and drink, but don't exceed". Of course if you decide to use waste then it will refer to waste as that's a seperate meaning of the same word. Also overconsuming is NOT waste. Wasting is throwing something away. If you eat or drink something, its been put to use and thus not wasted (unless thrown up ). Also lets keep the words "transgression" and "Exceed" seperate as "transgression" usually better means breaking Gods rules (sinning" while "exceed" meanings over doing something.
Why not? I honestly think it makes sense. Do not transgress would entail that we don't give away too much, eat too much dispose of pointlessly and so on. These are covered by the notion of transgression and i don't see how this makes less sense then to narrow it to just one aspect of transgressing with food. I genuinely think it makes more sense to not narrow the notion down.
As I said "transgress" as in "Breaking God's rules"and not overdoing something. That wouldn't fit the context of 641 well as there are no forbidden fruits here to eat while 731 has alcohol and pork that is forbidden to eat (again I interpret alcohol as forbidden). But the reason I say both 731 and 641 have to use the same meaning of that word when that same word can mean "Waste" "excess" or "Transgress" is because they both use the exact same word and phrasing as each other, but of course I don't know Arabic grammar, so maybe it can cause otherwise i'd think exceed would work best (as in paying too much charity) with 641 and Transgress best with 731 (Transgress as in breaking rules as in eat and drinking forbidden stuff).
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Agreed. No one should prohibit something that is not prohibited.
My point is that too much of something or too little of something is a transgression and transgression is mentioned. The only thing is that people are different and so what may be too much or too little for someone will be the right amount for another. Thats why someone should be very careful before saying to someone your overdoing or underdoing something and the person who outright prohibits something for someone, better have rock solid reasons for doing so.
No, thats why in my other post in addition to this one, I mentioned that transgression is subject and context dependent.Don't worry about it buddy ) Just a misunderstanding (i think). It's why you gotta be careful before getting passionate in a discussion. Misunderstandings are common and judgements should ideally be postivie towards others. Enhances the chances of peace and lessens the chance of conflict.
twitches Transgression means breaka Gods rules as in doing something that is forbidden. IT DOES NOT MEAN EXCESS IN EVERYTHING IS SINFUL!! its mentioned clearly when too much of something is forbidden like too much charity. Don't make everything haram. there is no mention whatsoever that too much of something is haram unless said otherwise. Trangression means going over the limits, but its only a sin if you go over the limits as in past the halal and into the haram.
so don't fo making remarks like that. Too much faith nor too much praying nor too much thinking is forbidden for obvious reasons, and neither is anything else that is not mentioned.
The context was clearly talking abour food and drinks NOT EVERYTHING and even so it was likely talking about doing haram in foods and drinks as in alcohol and pork and not about overdoing anything.
like seriously don't forbid things God hasn't forbid, its a sin on you. Noone one ever in history or now claimed too much of something is forbidden unless stated in the Quran!
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twitches Transgression means breaka Gods rules as in doing something that is forbidden. IT DOES NOT MEAN EXCESS IN EVERYTHING IS SINFUL!!
I think it does. If i exceed in anything, i think i have transgressed and have broken a law of God or exceeded a limit set by God. Dont you think overdoing something is sinful? We might have different ideas on what constitutes sin.
Look at 6141
And He it is who causes gardens to grow, trellised and untrellised, and palm trees and crops of different food and olives and pomegranates, similar and dissimilar. Eat of its fruit when it yields and give its due on the day of its harvest. And be not excessive. Indeed, He does not like those who commit excess.
As your aware, here the word used is transgress. Its the same word used in 731The excess in here also refers to zakat. So clearly one can transgress in zakat (by giving too much or too little)
its mentioned clearly when too much of something is forbidden like too much charity
Ok but too much charity is transgression as suggested by 6141
Don't make everything haram.
Im not.
there is no mention whatsoever that too much of something is haram unless said otherwise
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Im saying too much of something (anything) = transgression and we are told not too transgress.Trangression means going over the limits, but its only a sin if you go over the limits as in past the halal and into the haram.
This is your view of transgression. In my opinion that is too narrow a view of transgression. There is no controversy in saying that transgression = going over the limits. To limit it to a a few instances of overdoing is controversial IMO. Its like saying let's ignore some transgressions and label some transgressions as genuine transgressions.
Ultimately I think it might come down to this
Do we agree that transgression = going over the limits? If yes then why do we then say going over the limits on sleeping, playing music and so on is ok whilst going over the limits by eating too much or eating pork is not?
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I think it does. If i exceed in anything, i think i have transgressed and have broken a law of God or exceeded a limit set by God. Dont you think overdoing something is sinful? We might have different ideas on what constitutes sin.
So you are saying that praying a lot, learning knowledge a lot, painting a lot, and many other things that have NOT been forbidden is a sin?
So in other words if I like God a lot, I guess i'm a sinner.
If some country invades and states "I'm here to destroy the religions of God and if anyone transgresses our plan, they are transgressors." I guess I am also sinning for trying to defend my religion.
Seeing how ridiculous what you are saying is. You are clearly taking 731's "God does not like the Transgressors" on its own to mean all types of transgressions and not the ones specifically stated in the Quran.
If that is your logic I guess we aren't allowed to be happy
"Qaroon was from among the people of Moses, but he betrayed them. And We gave him such treasures that the keys thereof were almost too heavy for the strongest person. His people said to him "Do not glee, for God does not love the gleeful."
(2876)I guess being happy is forbidden to you as you don't take entire verses on and only take a section of a verse to mean what you wish. Thus I guess we are suppose to be sad and miserable eh. Clearly 2876 is bringing up a metaphor when read together that it means one shouldn't be prideful about his riches like Qarun who was mean to his people because it got to his head.
But as 731 states
"O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not Transgress; He does not like the Transgressors." (731)
Read the verse TOGETHER. You can see he is only referring to food here and not everything.
The only times transgressions are mentioned are in reference to people who broke rules that were ALREADY mentioned such as Zina such as murder, such as eating illegal food. Not about doing something too much. Honestly don't make up things without properly studying it.
Look at 6141
And He it is who causes gardens to grow, trellised and untrellised, and palm trees and crops of different food and olives and pomegranates, similar and dissimilar. Eat of its fruit when it yields and give its due on the day of its harvest. And be not excessive. Indeed, He does not like those who commit excess.
As your aware, here the word used is transgress. Its the same word used in 731The excess in here also refers to zakat. So clearly one can transgress in zakat (by giving too much or too little)
Ok but too much charity is transgression as suggested by 6141Here is refers to only over paying Zakat that is if we take it to refer to overpaying Zakat. The Free-minds translation takes it to mean wasting the food mentioned. Regardless again its states ONLY the zakat doesn't say everything.
Im saying too much of something (anything) = transgression and we are told not too transgress.
Told not to transgress against God given laws! We are told not to eat pork so doing so means we transgressed. We are told not to pay too much charity, if we do then we have transgressed. It tells us what to do and not do and I see no mentioned ANYWHERE that transgressing things that aren't in the Quran is a sin.
This is your view of transgression. In my opinion that is too narrow a view of transgression. There is no controversy in saying that transgression = going over the limits. To limit it to a a few instances of overdoing is controversial IMO. Its like saying let's ignore some transgressions and label some transgressions as genuine transgressions.
Okay then prove it to me where it states exceeding everything that isn't in the book is a sin? He has told us what is and what isn't, are you gonna seek a judge besides God? (AKA yourself?) And this isn't just me, its unanimous and especially in this Quran-only society that we only avoid what are told to avoid. I see no ignoring of transgressions. God didn't tell me I can't sleep for 12 hours a day if I wish, God didn't tell me I can't pray to him too much, God didn't tell me I can't paint for hours on end. And yes what you say is quite controversial. Give me a verse that states that too much of anything is bad? I mean anything not just one thing ANYTHING. You can't? well too bad, cause God left nothing out of his book as he stated. If he wanted to tell us if doing too much of something is a sin he would have told us. Don't be like the traditionalists who use hadiths to make up laws that aren't in the Quran...only difference is at least they are using hadiths which they believe have divinity, you are just making up stuff that is quite dangerous and have no evidence either.
Ultimately I think it might come down to this
Do we agree that transgression = going over the limits? If yes then why do we then say going over the limits on sleeping, playing music and so on is ok whilst going over the limits by eating too much or eating pork is not?
Because God said it is a sin to eat pork and told us that excess charity or excess spending is a sin, but he NEVER told us that sleeping a lot or anything else is a sin.
Also please realize one important things
TransgressionUsually means to break God given rules (AKA what is mentioned in the quran like eating Pork)
The Transgression you are saying is better translated as "Excess" and that is what everyone who translated ones about over doing something did.They are two different meanings and you are doing a serious sin by making whats halal as haram.
Here read this article on halal and haram and you'll understand better I hope.
http//free-minds.org/halal-haram
And especially take note of what the end of the article states
"All things that are not mentioned as being Haram, are, by default, Halal.
Yes, that is how simple things are. What God did not mention as being Haram, is ALLOWED by the Almighty for His servants.
We are NOT to play the role of God and falsely claim this is Haram or that is Haram because of our personal desires. We must REMEMBER that these words may only be uttered by our Lord and Master, and that He has already spoken.
Please remember this the next time someone asks you "Is this Haram?", and tell them that if it was never mentioned by God, then no power on Earth can make it Haram.
May God guide us all to His light."
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Peace Aryan Warrior
So you are saying that praying a lot, learning knowledge a lot, painting a lot, and many other things that have NOT been forbidden is a sin?
Do you think praying alot is the equivalent of praying excessively or praying transgressively?
I don't remember saying that doing alot of something is a transgression. i said to my understanding excess/too much, is a transgression and yes praying excessively is a transgression. because it is praying transgressively Its a bit like saying praying sinfully.
Important to note is that alot of something does not neccessarily = transgression You can have alot of something but still need more. But you can never have too much of something and need more....
So in other words if I like God a lot, I guess i'm a sinner.
No, if you like God excessively then you are a transgressor. But it may be the case that you cannot ever like God in excess. This might clarify my point of view.
If some country invades and states "I'm here to destroy the religions of God and if anyone transgresses our plan, they are transgressors." I guess I am also sinning for trying to defend my religion.
??
Seeing how ridiculous what you are saying is. You are clearly taking 731's "God does not like the Transgressors" on its own to mean all types of transgressions and not the ones specifically stated in the Quran.
Lets keep this discussion as good as possible. Suggesting that what im saying is ridiculous can potentially provoke and change the whole tone of the discussion. If I said something like your posts are ridiculous would you not be offended?
If that is your logic I guess we aren't allowed to be happy
"Qaroon was from among the people of Moses, but he betrayed them. And We gave him such treasures that the keys thereof were almost too heavy for the strongest person. His people said to him "Do not glee, for God does not love the gleeful."
(2876)I think you misunderstood my logic. In addition to that, what the people said is not the law of God even if its in the Quran.
"O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not Transgress; He does not like the Transgressors." (731)
Read the verse TOGETHER. You can see he is only referring to food here and not everything.
My point is that this is one example of transgression. We are told that the God does not like the transgressors. Il get back to this point at the end of this post.
The only times transgressions are mentioned are in reference to people who broke rules that were ALREADY mentioned such as Zina such as murder, such as eating illegal food. Not about doing something too much. Honestly don't make up things without properly studying it.
There is a chance that Im wrong and a chance that Im right or a chance that we're both wrong or a chance that your right. If im right, how bad would your accusation of me making things up look? So make no accusations that are negative. Their not needed. Just engage in the discussion. Its better that way.
It tells us what to do and not do and I see no mentioned ANYWHERE that transgressing things that aren't in the Quran is a sin.
God didn't tell me I can't sleep for 12 hours a day if I wish, God didn't tell me I can't pray to him too much, God didn't tell me I can't paint for hours on end.
Nor did I. But its pretty clear that the God said that it does not like the transgressors.
Give me a verse that states that too much of anything is bad? I mean anything not just one thing ANYTHING. You can't? well too bad,
Give me a chance.....
Ok this example might be useful
Fahisha is a transgression. Fahisha can entail many actions. All the actions that can be fahisha are not mentioned in the Quran. There are about two examples of fahisha given in the Quran (i think).
Fahisha is mentioned in the Quran. We have a notion of what is fahisha and all possible acts that entail fahisha. NowShould we consider only the two or three examples of fahisha in the Quran to be the only instances of genuine fahisha or should we literally say that fahisha is prohibted and then to engage in a discussion about what could be fahisha and why.
If I understand you correctly, your reasoning suggests that we are allowed to commit acts that we think are somewhat fashisha so long as it is not one of the examples given in the Quran in relation to fahisha. Will you hold this view???
"All things that are not mentioned as being Haram, are, by default, Halal.
I think I am a strong advocate when it comes to the view that nothing is prohibited unless entailed by the Quran appropriately and adequately. It was an important point of my defence in another discussion I was having a while ago. Its ironic that I should be accused of going against this principle.
Peace
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Alright... here we go in the endless flame war.
Peace Aryan Warrior
Peace
Do you think praying alot is the equivalent of praying excessively or praying transgressively?
I don't remember saying that doing alot of something is a transgression. i said to my understanding excess/too much, is a transgression and yes praying excessively is a transgression. because it is praying transgressively Its a bit like saying praying sinfully.
Important to note is that alot of something does not neccessarily = transgression You can have alot of something but still need more. But you can never have too much of something and need more....
No, if you like God excessively then you are a transgressor. But it may be the case that you cannot ever like God in excess. This might clarify my point of view.twiches so worship of God is a sin to you now... if done in excess... sigh... I love how people have forgotten that this religion isn't suppose to be a burden and yet you make it seem as such.
Lets keep this discussion as good as possible. Suggesting that what im saying is ridiculous can potentially provoke and change the whole tone of the discussion. If I said something like your posts are ridiculous would you not be offended?
You already have offended me when you said praying excessively to God is a sin...
I think you misunderstood my logic. In addition to that, what the people said is not the law of God even if its in the Quran.
And yet God used it as an example. God doesn't lie, so why would he put this in there as a great example against Qaruns pride in money.
My point is that this is one example of transgression. We are told that the God does not like the transgressors. Il get back to this point at the end of this post.
If you read it with the whole context you can see he means it to that case and that "transgressor" that God doesn't like are those that go against his laws AKA sin such as Zina. I hardly cannot believe that a just God would hate someone who who enjoys his lawful things a bit too much.
Nor did I. But its pretty clear that the God said that it does not like the transgressors.
Read the above.
Give me a chance.....
Ok this example might be useful
Fahisha is a transgression. Fahisha can entail many actions. All the actions that can be fahisha are not mentioned in the Quran. There are about two examples of fahisha given in the Quran (i think).
Fahisha is mentioned in the Quran. We have a notion of what is fahisha and all possible acts that entail fahisha. NowShould we consider only the two or three examples of fahisha in the Quran to be the only instances of genuine fahisha or should we literally say that fahisha is prohibted and then to engage in a discussion about what could be fahisha and why.
If I understand you correctly, your reasoning suggests that we are allowed to commit acts that we think are somewhat fashisha so long as it is not one of the examples given in the Quran in relation to fahisha. Will you hold this view???
hoho you decided to dig up something like fahisha against me. Alright let me answer this.
First off we got three verses and they go as followed
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?Do not marry the women who were previously married to your fathers-existing marriages are exempted, for it is a fahisha, and an abominable act.? (4/22),
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?Lot said to his people, ?You commit such an fahisha; no one in the world has done it before!? (7/80)
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?Do not go near Zina, for it is a Fahisha and an evil path.? (17/32)
-" Do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is fahisha, abhorrence, and a bad path. Forbidden for you are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your fathers' sisters, your mothers' sisters, the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, your foster mothers who suckled you, your sisters from suckling, the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (422-23)
You may say it doesn't cover everything but actually it DOES cover everything. It states not to go near Zina thus this means intercourse, foreplay and all related sexual acts with someone else. It also forbids homosexuality, so that is done too. As well it forbids incest. Thus thats everything that one can possibly think is fahisha.
Also thank you for bringing up fahisha as that called my nerves a bit about this topic as I feel even more sure as I took notice as to how well God has indeed covered fahisha.
Thus God fully explained it so don't try to use that as a hardball against me. Try again, find a verse that explains that all excessive things are a sin. Reading the Quran excessively a sin? is seeing your children excessively a sin? is doing rightous deed excessively a sin? Still sounds quite farfetched and quite burdensome for a religion that is suppose to be burdenless.
I think I am a strong advocate when it comes to the view that nothing is prohibited unless entailed by the Quran appropriately and adequately. It was an important point of my defence in another discussion I was having a while ago. Its ironic that I should be accused of going against this principle.
Peace
Well you are saying stuff that aren't mentioned in the Quran...much like how the Sunnis and Shias do where they claim music is illegal.
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twiches so worship of God is a sin to you now... if done in excess... sigh... I love how people have forgotten that this religion isn't suppose to be a burden and yet you make it seem as such.
sighs if done in excess yes. My point is that the word excess automatically renders it a sin. The reason this may seem absurd to you is because you don't believe that worship could happen in excess. I am more inclined towards this idea also but not certain about it. It may be that you could worship alot, but it never be enough but this means that you could never worship in excess so transgrssion does not apply to worship of the God.
You already have offended me when you said praying excessively to God is a sin...
I didn't intend offense. Either I was too careless in my post or you take offense too easily. In case the fault is mine, I apologise, i meant no offense.
And yet God used it as an example. God doesn't lie, so why would he put this in there as a great example against Qaruns pride in money.
There are other possible reasons but i won't go into it as it might distract and there are more important points to discuss at the moment. If you think not, then we can discuss this point further. But please see my post first and then decide
I hardly cannot believe that a just God would hate someone who who enjoys his lawful things a bit too much.
Hate is too strong a word. The level of disaproval and dislike would surely depend on the nature of the transgression and its intensity.
First off we got three verses and they go as followed
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?Do not marry the women who were previously married to your fathers-existing marriages are exempted, for it is a fahisha, and an abominable act.? (4/22),
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?Lot said to his people, ?You commit such an fahisha; no one in the world has done it before!? (7/80)
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?Do not go near Zina, for it is a Fahisha and an evil path.? (17/32)
-" Do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is fahisha, abhorrence, and a bad path. Forbidden for you are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your fathers' sisters, your mothers' sisters, the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, your foster mothers who suckled you, your sisters from suckling, the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (422-23)
You may say it doesn't cover everything but actually it DOES cover everything. It states not to go near Zina thus this means intercourse, foreplay and all related sexual acts with someone else. It also forbids homosexuality, so that is done too. As well it forbids incest. Thus thats everything that one can possibly think is fahisha.
How would you include the following
Fetishes
Pleasuring animals
Sex with the deadI do believe that it covers everything since i take the quran to be complete. But my understanding is that as humans we have some guideline of what fahisha is in our reasoning and that Quran prohitbits fahisha. Again I think there is really mild fahisha to really extreme fahisha. The judgement is on the individual on what is fahisha (with the exception of what is explicitly used as examples). Similar with transgression. I doubt that this would be like adding to the book or setting oneself up as a god in addition to the God....
Also a side question, would you accept being gay as fahisha but not being a lesbian?
Thus God fully explained it so don't try to use that as a hardball against me. Try again, find a verse that explains that all excessive things are a sin. Reading the Quran excessively a sin? is seeing your children excessively a sin? is doing rightous deed excessively a sin? Still sounds quite farfetched and quite burdensome for a religion that is suppose to be burdenless.
Reading alot of the Quran is not a sin provided it is not excessive. Same with seeing your children. Being righteous is the surest thing IMO that can't be ever transgressed in. Since righteoussness entails that one is not transgressive, it implies that transgressing in rightousness is like saying you can transgress in not being transgressive.
Well you are saying stuff that aren't mentioned in the Quran...much like how the Sunnis and Shias do where they claim music is illegal.
Thats what you think (and you may be right or wrong. God knows but not you or I) There is no certaintity yet for us. So lets discuss without such assertions.
Thus God fully explained it so don't try to use that as a hardball against me.
Its just a disagreement on how the God fully explained it not whether the God fully explained or not.
Peace
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sighs if done in excess yes. My point is that the word excess automatically renders it a sin. The reason this may seem absurd to you is because you don't believe that worship could happen in excess. I am more inclined towards this idea also but not certain about it. It may be that you could worship alot, but it never be enough but this means that you could never worship in excess so transgrssion does not apply to worship of the God.
Peace
Again I don't believe anything done in excess unless otherwise stated is a sin but you say your aren't sure? Seems you are indeed quite open. I'll admit that what you have posted about transgression also made me do a lot of research and thinking about the situation too, so glad to hear that we are both indeed thinking and not being stubborn
I didn't intend offense. Either I was too careless in my post or you take offense too easily. In case the fault is mine, I apologise, i meant no offense.
Don't worry, I was kind of hot headed yesterday even though the idea is a bit odd to me but yeah don't worry
There are other possible reasons but i won't go into it as it might distract and there are more important points to discuss at the moment. If you think not, then we can discuss this point further. But please see my post first and then decide
we'll return to this when or if needed.
Hate is too strong a word. The level of disaproval and dislike would surely depend on the nature of the transgression and its intensity.
By your logic, he "doesn't love" ALL people who do anything in excess, thus even one who worships him in excess is not loved, which really doesn't sound like something from a just God.
How would you include the following
Fetishes
Pleasuring animals
Sex with the deadFetishes... that would I assume fall into the area of self-pleasure AKA masturbation and there is a whole debate on that as I saw elsewhere on the forums before and I am one to not consider it lewdness especially since it didn't have a single mention in the Quran. Its yourself, so don't considering yourself as lewdness.
sex with animals and sex with the dead are still Zina as Zina means unlawful sex and since you can't marry an animal nor the dead as they aren't listed amongst those you can marry. Even so such things such as treatment of animals are also linked to this as well as hurting your own body considering you will likely catch some random disease from this.
I do believe that it covers everything since i take the quran to be complete. But my understanding is that as humans we have some guideline of what fahisha is in our reasoning and that Quran prohitbits fahisha. Again I think there is really mild fahisha to really extreme fahisha. The judgement is on the individual on what is fahisha (with the exception of what is explicitly used as examples). Similar with transgression. I doubt that this would be like adding to the book or setting oneself up as a god in addition to the God....
Also a side question, would you accept being gay as fahisha but not being a lesbian?
Fahisha is fully explained to us in my opinion so I don't see any thing not covered. 100% cover unlike transgression which I believe only covers otherwise we'd be told not to transgress anything.
I also say lesbian falls under fahisha as because what Lot's people did was homosexuality and thus the idea that its still the same sex covers that too as well as covers coming close to Zina as they are still sexually pleasuring each other.
Reading alot of the Quran is not a sin provided it is not excessive. Same with seeing your children. Being righteous is the surest thing IMO that can't be ever transgressed in. Since righteoussness entails that one is not transgressive, it implies that transgressing in rightousness is like saying you can transgress in not being transgressive.
By your logic, being rightous excessively is a sin then as you said as long as it simply has the word "transgress" it means it in every little case. Thus why the idea that transgress refers to everything and not the context in matter doesn't work, especially considering how just God is and how complete the Quran is.
Thats what you think (and you may be right or wrong. God knows but not you or I) There is no certaintity yet for us. So lets discuss without such assertions.
Its just a disagreement on how the God fully explained it not whether the God fully explained or not.Peace
God said he fully explained everything thus he has told us the "limits" such as excess charity being bad but never to say sleeping.
Peace
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Again I don't believe anything done in excess unless otherwise stated is a sin but you say your aren't sure? Seems you are indeed quite open. I'll admit that what you have posted about transgression also made me do a lot of research and thinking about the situation too, so glad to hear that we are both indeed thinking and not being stubborn
I hope you find me not stubborn. I'd hate to think that I am. At the moment the only thing i can be certain of as not being possible to transgress in is righteousness.
On the issue of transgressing praying or worship here is why i think it is possible to transgress in them
Say you worship God 24 hours a day to the extent that you forget to eat and drink. At times you pass out and then when you regain consciousness you go back into worship. You then die since you were so preoccupied with worship that you forgot to eat and drink.
Would you consider this a transgression in worship? Would it not be better if the preoccupation was such that he ate then continued or perhaps slept and relaxed a bit effectively since they may result in a higher quality of worship as opposed to just time of worship.Now for everything a hypothetical scenario of its transgression is possible except righteoussness. Thats my current point of view.
Don't worry, I was kind of hot headed yesterday even though the idea is a bit odd to me but yeah don't worry
Thanks
By your logic, he "doesn't love" ALL people who do anything in excess, thus even one who worships him in excess is not loved, which really doesn't sound like something from a just God.
The way i view it is like a spectrum. Say person X was loved by God by....i don't know, lets call it love points (LP) and X's actions and chracter have him at 23 LP with the God. Now let's say he commits a very small transgression (he eats more than he should have on two occasions) now this results in some dislike which naturally takes away from the LP. But because its a small transgression, its also a small amount of dislike.
So we get something like this 23-0.5=22.5 So given that there is small dislike from the God regarding X's transgression but X is alreay got 23 (LP) based on his character and actions, X is still liked/loved by the God even though he is disliked a very small amount from his transgression.By your logic, he "doesn't love" ALL people who do anything in excess, thus even one who worships him in excess is not loved, which really doesn't sound like something from a just God.
I currently think it difficult to transgress in worship but if someone's worship so excessive and extreme that they ended up not seeing their children or contributing to society and so on, then its safe to say that this person has got less LP then he would have if he had done things differently.
So with this kind of reasoning regarding the nature of transgression in the scriptue, we get something like the greater transgressions (rape, murder and so on) incur greater dislike such that it could potentially put someone at -23 LP where as before they were on +43 LP
Fetishes... that would I assume fall into the area of self-pleasure AKA masturbation and there is a whole debate on that as I saw elsewhere on the forums before and I am one to not consider it lewdness especially since it didn't have a single mention in the Quran. Its yourself, so don't considering yourself as lewdness.
Lusting after animals is a potential fetish, I think this is a pretty clear case of transgression in the form of fahisha. This is just my point of view though. I don't have the fetish and those with it may be justified in having it and thus using it for their pleasure is ok in the sight of God since i cant understand their point of view.
sex with animals and sex with the dead are still Zina as Zina means unlawful sex and since you can't marry an animal nor the dead as they aren't listed amongst those you can marry. Even so such things such as treatment of animals are also linked to this as well as hurting your own body considering you will likely catch some random disease from this.
Thats if you believe sex to be exclusive to marriage. I don't. i've disucssed this before in depth. Its not a clear issue, its controversial. Whilst some take the view that it is exclusive to marriage, others may not. I don't because from the way i've understood the scripture and reasoned, thats how it appears to me.
But check it out. If you find an explicit verse that prohibits or makes sex exclusive to marriage, please let me know. As we are both surely after the truth of what is the best sort of conduct regarding the matter. I'm planning on posting a summary of the debate on sex before marriage or outsied of marriage at some point. It might make your research easier on this, that is if you choose to research the idea of sex not being exclusive to marriage.
Another issue is where do you draw the line from what is sex and what is not sex. So lets say pleasuring the dead. Is it then acceptable? Would this not be transgression in the form of fahisha. Its clear in our reasoning IMO that it is. It may not have been used as an example in the Quran but the Quran is clear in saying that we should stay away from fahisha. Same with transgression.
This is why we need to use our reason. The scripture is complete but it still demands that we use our reason to uphold it.
Even so such things such as treatment of animals are also linked to this as well as hurting your own body considering you will likely catch some random disease from this.
So what would you call it? Transgresion? Fahisha? what other options do we have? I think everything is entailed by transgression but this sort of act is self-harm (transgression against the self) and a fahisha because intuitively our reason suggests that this is unnatural and excesive regarding sexual pleasure.
God said he fully explained everything thus he has told us the "limits" such as excess charity being bad but never to say sleeping.
Yes. We are told to race towards the good deeds, work righteoussness not trangress and so on. BUT does the Quran cover every instance of good deed? There are some examples yes but it is not exhaustive of all the good deeds that are possible in this world. Thats where we are given the reason to distinguish good deeds and transgressions and fahisha and all other like terms as covered by the Quran.
With this in mind, can we really afford to limit transgresion to just the few exmaple as given in the Quran?
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I hope you find me not stubborn. I'd hate to think that I am. At the moment the only thing i can be certain of as not being possible to transgress in is righteousness.
On the issue of transgressing praying or worship here is why i think it is possible to transgress in them
Say you worship God 24 hours a day to the extent that you forget to eat and drink. At times you pass out and then when you regain consciousness you go back into worship. You then die since you were so preoccupied with worship that you forgot to eat and drink.
Would you consider this a transgression in worship? Would it not be better if the preoccupation was such that he ate then continued or perhaps slept and relaxed a bit effectively since they may result in a higher quality of worship as opposed to just time of worship.Now for everything a hypothetical scenario of its transgression is possible except righteoussness. Thats my current point of view.
That would not apply to the sin defined as "transgression" as you say and rather to the other sin known as "causing your own doom" as they have completely stopped everything and are dying at this point. Transgression has nothing to do with it as a person could do that for one day but they haven't adopted that as doing it forever. It's not like its "poison" where it would cause your instant doom. Thus the transgression you speak of has no play in this.
And again where did you find this detail on righteousness not being transgressive? clearly you are at this point just saying what you feel is right and you aren't God to know such things. Thus if you say all transgressions are a sin, then all would be including that. Thus why its only based on what has clearly been told to us. Anything that starts causing our doom is a whole seperate sin and not amongst the things told to us.
The way i view it is like a spectrum. Say person X was loved by God by....i don't know, lets call it love points (LP) and X's actions and chracter have him at 23 LP with the God. Now let's say he commits a very small transgression (he eats more than he should have on two occasions) now this results in some dislike which naturally takes away from the LP. But because its a small transgression, its also a small amount of dislike.
So we get something like this 23-0.5=22.5 So given that there is small dislike from the God regarding X's transgression but X is alreay got 23 (LP) based on his character and actions, X is still liked/loved by the God even though he is disliked a very small amount from his transgression.Again you are talking about stuff you don't know. First that still doesn't sound justful in regards to God to dislike a person for excess in worship. Lose these love points cause he worshipped God too much? oh please... where does a point system come here? there is only a sin vs righteous point system mentioned by God. Thus LP would be a sin and probably bigger sin then normal considering God said he doesn't like those types of people. Third God is infinite in his mercy and justice and is without a mistake. He has clearly stated that the Quran is perfect and covers all bases and has told us what is a transgression clearly. Thus if a person sleeps 12 hours a day and isn't breaking any rules in the Quran by doing so, then he isn't sinning as sleeping is not considered as transgression. Course if he did sleep alot and somehow sinned in some other fashion, then he would be guilty for that thing he is missing not the oversleeping as that is never mentioned.
I currently think it difficult to transgress in worship but if someone's worship so excessive and extreme that they ended up not seeing their children or contributing to society and so on, then its safe to say that this person has got less LP then he would have if he had done things differently.
So with this kind of reasoning regarding the nature of transgression in the scriptue, we get something like the greater transgressions (rape, murder and so on) incur greater dislike such that it could potentially put someone at -23 LP where as before they were on +43 LP
First off don't use the LP system as that has no Quranic basis or mention of it. Now continuing if they don't contribute to society (as in charity or whatever that is required) then they have sinned in regards to not contributing to society NOT transgression in worship as that is never mentioned as a sin.
Lusting after animals is a potential fetish, I think this is a pretty clear case of transgression in the form of fahisha. This is just my point of view though. I don't have the fetish and those with it may be justified in having it and thus using it for their pleasure is ok in the sight of God since i cant understand their point of view.
Lusting first off is something you think or fantasize. If you don't put it into action, then there is no harm and there is no mention of it ever being harmful. Course if you put it into action, then that would fall into close to Zina or simply Zina and thus still is covered by the definition given to us of fahisha.
Thats if you believe sex to be exclusive to marriage. I don't. i've disucssed this before in depth. Its not a clear issue, its controversial. Whilst some take the view that it is exclusive to marriage, others may not. I don't because from the way i've understood the scripture and reasoned, thats how it appears to me.
But check it out. If you find an explicit verse that prohibits or makes sex exclusive to marriage, please let me know. As we are both surely after the truth of what is the best sort of conduct regarding the matter. I'm planning on posting a summary of the debate on sex before marriage or outsied of marriage at some point. It might make your research easier on this, that is if you choose to research the idea of sex not being exclusive to marriage.
The problem is that you don't accept the word Zina to mean both fornification and adultry which is basic Arabic and both ancient and modern versions and I believe that is what Zina means. If we are not in agreeance to that, we might be coming to a stand still.
Another issue is where do you draw the line from what is sex and what is not sex. So lets say pleasuring the dead. Is it then acceptable? Would this not be transgression in the form of fahisha. Its clear in our reasoning IMO that it is. It may not have been used as an example in the Quran but the Quran is clear in saying that we should stay away from fahisha. Same with transgression.
This is why we need to use our reason. The scripture is complete but it still demands that we use our reason to uphold it.
I already explained pleasuring the dead is zina or close to zina as you aren't allowed to have sex with it considering its marriable and thus still covered under fahisha as defined in the Quran. Thus if one has sex with a corpse, then they have done the sin of fahisha that is clearly described under the section of closer to zina or if simply the sin of Zina if intercourse happened and not transgression as its covered under fahisha and zina not transgression.
So what would you call it? Transgresion? Fahisha? what other options do we have? I think everything is entailed by transgression but this sort of act is self-harm (transgression against the self) and a fahisha because intuitively our reason suggests that this is unnatural and excesive regarding sexual pleasure.
Yes. We are told to race towards the good deeds, work righteoussness not trangress and so on. BUT does the Quran cover every instance of good deed? There are some examples yes but it is not exhaustive of all the good deeds that are possible in this world. Thats where we are given the reason to distinguish good deeds and transgressions and fahisha and all other like terms as covered by the Quran.
With this in mind, can we really afford to limit transgresion to just the few exmaple as given in the Quran?
Sex with animals is zina as you can't marry animals and fahisha if you get only close to Zina and at all times mistreatment of animals. The only that type of transgression it is are breaking Gods set rules.
The problem is that you are heavily misusing the world "transgression". Transgression means breakings Gods laws. For example say you are told that you cannot walk into a military base. If you walk into it, you have transgressed AKA done what they told you not to do. If they didn't say you can't walk into the military base, then walking into the military base is allowed and you are not punished by the law. Thus its the same case. What you aren't told isn't a transgression (AKA breaking the laws of God) isn't a sin.
Also you are officially picking at straws if you are bringing up the fact that good deeds aren't covered fully to support your definition of transgression. Good deeds are by itself defined as doing stuff that are good for the world. Transgression simply means as said above, breaking what has been told for you not to break not everything little thing in existence. Fahisha is completely covered as i've said too so there really is no reason to try to pick at that as your support either.
The law tells us not to randomly walk into a military base and if we did it would be a transgression and if they didn't as the law has stated it wouldn't be a transgression.
God told us not to kill people or overpay on charity and if we did it would a transgression and if for what he hasn't told us then there is nothing stopping from doing it.
It's simple logic and quite clear.
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And again where did you find this detail on righteousness not being transgressive? clearly you are at this point just saying what you feel is right and you aren't God to know such things
Its logic. Im not the God to claim 1+1=2 but the logic given to me strongly suggests that I believe in it.
How can you transgress in Righteousness when it demands that you do not transgress? A complete righteous character would not transgress since it would be an instance of unrighteoussness on his part. Similarly a moderate person would not transgress. Whilst there may be instances where he transgresses he cannot ultimately become transgressive in his moderateness which is entailed by righteousness.Thats why I said it would be like saying transgression in being un-transgressive.
Do you still think you can transgress in righteousness?That would not apply to the sin defined as "transgression" as you say and rather to the other sin known as "causing your own doom" as they have completely stopped everything and are dying at this point
Ok is it a sin? If yes is Sin not the breaking of God's laws or going against the God's limits? If yes then is that not trangression?
Third God is infinite in his mercy and justice
Now your just saying stuff. Could you back that up with a verse?
Again you are talking about stuff you don't know. First that still doesn't sound justful in regards to God to dislike a person for excess in worship. .
I disagree. I believe excess (transgressive) worship = sin = dislike/disapproval from the God.....that is provided that excess worship is possible (and I think that it is)
Lose these love points cause he worshipped God too much? oh please... where does a point system come here? there is only a sin vs righteous point system mentioned by God. Thus LP would be a sin and probably bigger sin then normal considering God said he doesn't like those types of people
First off don't use the LP system as that has no Quranic basis or mention of it.
I didn't say it does, there may be some implications but there is nothing explicit in the Quran that says this. I said this is my understanding of how we are judged in terms of dislike/disaroval from the God. We are told even an atom's weight is considered when we are judged so from this i decided that ultimately Good and bad (since it is also said that the Good deeds wipe out the bad) have different degrees of value and so the greater the good commited against the evil, the more likely one is to be approved of or be like by the God. Would you have it any other way from a Quranic basis??
Lusting first off is something you think or fantasize. If you don't put it into action, then there is no harm and there is no mention of it ever being harmful.
Ok I think its a sin but I can understand why you'd think its not. There is no explicit verse in the Quran that would make it a sin. But IMO the women lusted after may a) Not want to be lusted after b) Have boyfriends, fiances or husbands that don't want their companion to be lusted after by some other individual. There considerations IMO make me think that its wrong to lust after other women but I cannot fully back this up with the Scripture unless I claim that it falls under Fahisha. I believe that it does but thats just my opnion based on a) and b).
Also in 235-6 we are told to restrain our gaze. Though this does not say that to not restrain is a sin, it at the very least makes explicit that we should not lust after women who are not of Ma malekat aymunkum or zawjin relation to us.
So even if we disagree about whether lusting/looking at women is a fahisha or not, we can surely agree that it is better not to fantasize or look at women.
The problem is that you don't accept the word Zina to mean both fornification and adultry
I do. But the problem is that your understanding of fornication differs to me. Fornication IMO is sex with anyone that falls outside of the Ma malekat aymunkum and zawj categories. For you I think that fornication is just sex outside of marriage (zawj) but 235-6 may suggest otherwise.
I already explained pleasuring the dead is zina or close to zina as you aren't allowed to have sex with it considering its marriable and thus still covered under fahisha as defined in the Quran. Thus if one has sex with a corpse, then they have done the sin of fahisha that is clearly described under the section of closer to zina or if simply the sin of Zina if intercourse happened and not transgression as its covered under fahisha and zina not transgression.
Ok I've changed my mind on this. I agree with you. It is a fahisha or if its full on sex, then it is zina since it falls outside of the zawj and Ma malekat aymunkum categories.
Also you are officially picking at straws if you are bringing up the fact that good deeds aren't covered fully to support your definition of transgression. Good deeds are by itself defined as doing stuff that are good for the world
Thats my whole point. Transgression is also of a similar nature. Its self explanatory.
Fahisha is completely covered as i've said too so there really is no reason to try to pick at that as your support either.
Ok my past examples were poor. How about this. Flirting with someone who's already taken. Whats that, a fahisha? Is it mentioned in the Quran?
Raping your zawj? Its not zina. You'd argue its not a trangression, but its clearly wrong. But on what grounds? How can we link this back to the Quran?