So does reason come into how one views the Koran or not?
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Post deleted.
huh?
???
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The Quran repeatedly says that it is for people who think and possess intelligence. It is a trait of the righteous that they examine all words and follow the best, that they seek knowledge and wisdom, they verify information, that they think, ponder, reflect, study and make their choices about what they believe and how they apply those beliefs in their life based upon reason, sound knowledge and guidance from God.
In contrast, the rejectors tend to parrot things without understanding, follow leaders blindly, have limited knowledge and understanding or are ignorant of Gods message, do not think, have a herd mentality, and do not reason and engage in wishful thinking by making up their own religious laws, rules and beliefs.
Good point. There are issue like eating pork where it may be difficult for us to understand the reasoning behind it. Some Koranist will accept the verses as they are others will try to investigate the reasoning behind it and make a decision. But in the end if they Koran wants to be explicit it can be so, if it choses to be implicit or vague it can do so. Generally speaking vague and implicit verses mean that the issue is not critical and Koranist can differ in their interpretation. Verses that are very explicit and is repeated often are things that Koranist agree upon. What the Koran sees as important is different than how Muslims might see them. Qibla is a very good example. The Koran chose to be vague about it, for most Muslims the Qibla is a crucial matter. However in verse 2.177 the Koran expicitly tells us that where you face when you pray or otherwise is not important. It tells us that God looks at other things about a person and not where he faces. There are such verses in the Koran that reveals to us whats important and whats not. The Sabbath is another issue the Koran tells us was ordered on the Israelites but for a reason specific to the time. Most Muslims will tell you that believing in eating pork or not having a Qibla is kufr. And Most Rabbis will tell you that not believing in the Sabbath is kufr. But how the Koran understands these issues is very different.
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Stop repeating that all the time, and tell us which Quran or translation to read???
Use your reasoning to know!
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The Quran repeatedly says that it is for people who think and possess intelligence. It is a trait of the righteous that they examine all words and follow the best, that they seek knowledge and wisdom, they verify information, that they think, ponder, reflect, study and make their choices about what they believe and how they apply those beliefs in their life based upon reason, sound knowledge and guidance from God.
In contrast, the rejectors tend to parrot things without understanding, follow leaders blindly, have limited knowledge and understanding or are ignorant of Gods message, do not think, have a herd mentality, and do not reason and engage in wishful thinking by making up their own religious laws, rules and beliefs.
Yeah, and there's people who blindly accept every translation no matter how ridiculous it is, without investigating anything at all and just accepting whatever they're told from whoever they're told, and are so close minded they don't even try to examine other beliefs and translations that even give evidence that their own belief or translations of the Quran are true.
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And how many translations have you read and studied? How well do you really know the Quran? How many years have you been learning about God? How much experience in the trials of life have you had to learn about God and the world?
My advice to you would be to not rush into understanding the Quran and do not be so hasty to attach yourself to an ideology you don't even fully understand. You should also not be close minded to other views, opinions and understandings nor should you be promoting what you only currently think is right and correct with arrogance, insult and disdain for others.
You are very young and you have so much more to learn about yourself, about God and the world to be making such claims and proclamations as you do. Your views and understandings will change and develop over the course of your life. Take your time and learn things slowly.
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And how many translations have you read and studied? How well do you really know the Quran? How many years have you been learning about God? How much experience in the trials of life have you had to learn about God and the world?
My advice to you would be to not rush into understanding the Quran and do not be so hasty to attach yourself to an ideology you don't even fully understand. You should also not be close minded to other views, opinions and understandings nor should you be promoting what you only currently think is right and correct with arrogance, insult and disdain for others.
You are very young and you have so much more to learn about yourself, about God and the world to be making such claims and proclamations as you do. Your views and understandings will change and develop over the course of your life. Take your time and learn things slowly.
Do you choose whether I fully understand an ideology or not?
Just as you know, it took me 1 year to agree with the views presented in SOL after reading more of it's articles -
And how many translations have you read and studied? How well do you really know the Quran? How many years have you been learning about God? How much experience in the trials of life have you had to learn about God and the world?
My advice to you would be to not rush into understanding the Quran and do not be so hasty to attach yourself to an ideology you don't even fully understand. You should also not be close minded to other views, opinions and understandings nor should you be promoting what you only currently think is right and correct with arrogance, insult and disdain for others.
You are very young and you have so much more to learn about yourself, about God and the world to be making such claims and proclamations as you do. Your views and understandings will change and develop over the course of your life. Take your time and learn things slowly.
That is whats beautiful about being a Koranist is that you are in a never ending journey as the Koran is filled with mysteries and challenges. I myself had changed my views about many subjects and still find myself changing my views. The Koranist persuasion is still in its infancy, there is still a long road ahead. But unlike when I was a Sunni, there is no stagnation.
Learning about God is another matter. Every one has his own experience. The Koran is made for mankind, but faith is an individual affair.
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That is whats beautiful about being a Koranist is that you are in a never ending journey as the Koran is filled with mysteries and challenges. I myself had changed my views about many subjects and still find myself changing my views. The Koranist persuasion is still in its infancy, there is still a long road ahead. But unlike when I was a Sunni, there is no stagnation.
Learning about God is another matter. Every one has his own experience. The Koran is made for mankind, but faith is an individual affair.
Faith is definitely stupid in many levels. It's believing something blindly, without reason, logic and examining the evidence.
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When you Trust in the unseen, when you Trust in God for things you cannot see or cannot control, when you Trust in Him when things are not going so well for you or when you are fearful, that is Faith. And it is a trait of the Righteous.
As I said, you still have much to learn.
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When you Trust in the unseen, when you Trust in God for things you cannot see or cannot control, when you Trust in Him when things are not going so well for you or when you are fearful, that is Faith. And it is a trait of the Righteous.
As I said, you still have much to learn.
Yep, and that's why Faith is stupid.
God does not exist,
You shouldn't trust something that is not proven to exist
You shouldn't trust something that it's assumed existence goes against logical reason and scienceI have nothing more to learn.
SOL's ideology makes perfect sense, unlike your blind faith, Abdun Nur and his friends actually give not only high logical reason, but also linguistic, historical and scientific evidence to support their firm beliefs.Faith is a ridiculous thing, it's simply putting your trust in someone or something just because.
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Yep, and that's why Faith is stupid.
God does not exist,
You shouldn't trust something that is not proven to exist
You shouldn't trust something that it's assumed existence goes against logical reason and scienceI have nothing more to learn.
SOL's ideology makes perfect sense, unlike your blind faith, Abdun Nur and his friends actually give not only high logical reason, but also linguistic, historical and scientific evidence to support their firm beliefs.Faith is a ridiculous thing, it's simply putting your trust in someone or something just because.
I actually agree with this!
In His Torah, God invites us to KNOW Him many times but ONLY 2 times He uses the word emuna, which is usually translated as "faith", but it actually means -the trust-, to trust in Him (like "iman" in Islam). ("know that I am your God who brought you out... etc etc).
Blind faith is OUT!And the Qur'an is a mixture of many apocryphal and Midrshic texts, and, without the numerical miracle of 19, one would be very doubtful that it comes from God!...
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LJMLO4I_g&feature=plcp
interesting to watch almost every video on that channel
http//www.youtube.com/user/IslamicMiracles?feature=watch
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Anybody wishing to explore a major role reason plays in the Qur'an is requested to watch Jeffery Lang explain it effectively here
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifllgTA2pmY
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bravo Thank you for exposing your true self.
I think we should discuss about the Qur'an, instead of passing arbitrary personal opinions about each other.
I am not interested in your view of anybody's "true self" even if you were a clairvoyant... )
Just post arguments contributing to the thread. thank you
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Some things in the Quran are clear, while others are vague and could have multple meaning
"He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses?which constitute the essence of the scripture?as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses....." (37)a nice example of that is the punishment of thieves... What does cutting the hands of theives mean? (53
The traditional understanding is to literally cut the hand of thieves,
But from the deeper meaning of cutting the HANDS , looking into the examples cited to us and uses of "Hands",- we see that the women with Pharoah's wife "CUT THEIR HANDS" (i.e just cutting their hands with knives, not severing their entire hand!!!) (1231)
- we see that the punishment of the brother of Joseph (benjamin), was himself, he was taken in (e.g taken in as a slave/worker) (1275)
- Some have said "God's HANDS are tied down (564)
- Some people were described as being "HANDY" (resourceful/rich/strength) (3848 & 3817)
- In some examples, there is cited of cutting the opposite hands and feet (which hands do we cut, and one or both?) (533)
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Yep, and that's why Faith is stupid.
God does not exist,
You shouldn't trust something that is not proven to exist
You shouldn't trust something that it's assumed existence goes against logical reason and scienceI have nothing more to learn.
SOL's ideology makes perfect sense, unlike your blind faith, Abdun Nur and his friends actually give not only high logical reason, but also linguistic, historical and scientific evidence to support their firm beliefs.Faith is a ridiculous thing, it's simply putting your trust in someone or something just because.
We end up with a play of words. I think most posters in this thread mean the same thing, but end up debating with eachother due to what meaning they put in the words 'faith' and 'God'. Let's try to see the common ground. Let's not put most effort in showing differences.
Kaioken, do you not think there is a Creator? Abdunur does! I think that when you say God doesn't exist, you intend to put forth the same view as is found on SOL, that the typical concept of 'God' is too narrow and limited. But I think it would be better if you could put this understanding in your own words, to explain it to others... coz otherwise people just won't have a clue what you are talking about.... and that is as bad, or worse, as saying nothing at all... coz it would give the wrong impression rather than no impression at all. Also it is of no use to direct people at a website. Some will go there and read it all, but only a few. So it doesn't really achieve the goal of showing people one's own understanding that one feels happy to have come across.
Same thing with 'faith'. It all depends on what meaning we put in it. Real faith is not blind. So that's not what the quran is talking about... or anyone else should talk about. Faith and reason should go hand in hand... otherwise there is something missing. So I also agree that we should not believe in something just because. The quran says the same thing.
You shouldn't trust something that is not proven to exist
You shouldn't trust something that it's assumed existence goes against logical reason and scienceI can agree to this partly. The problem is what 'proof' is. It is different things to different people. Things even change in science. Things that seem clear, straight and obvious... proven.... end up being discarded for an updated understanding, especially when paradigm shifts occur.
In religion, every 'side' has proofs for their understanding. You can never come up with a proof that everyone will agree to. Only Allah will do this... and then it will be too late for second thoughts. The reason we can't find conclusive proofs for anything is that we don't know EVERYTHING about reality and existance. We know bits and pieces. Only the creator knows all. We are INSIDE creation, and therefore we can't see all of it. But we should follow the best, most constructive, peace-generating, most reasonable and sensible understanding that we currently have, depending on our current state of awareness and maturity.
I have nothing more to learn.
SOL's ideology makes perfect sense, unlike your blind faith, Abdun Nur and his friends actually give not only high logical reason, but also linguistic, historical and scientific evidence to support their firm beliefs.In all friendliness, and speaking from my own personal experience, this attitude is very dangerous! And without a doubt, you will realize this yourself eventually. But I know how it feels! I'm always happy to gain new understanding... it's liberating and you feel veils taken away from your eyes/mind... and I feel that finally I get it... but I have come to learn that it is never the end. Even if I can not understand how and what, I now know that there is always something better ahead... always! And of course there is! There is no-one with the ultimate understanding of anything. Only Allah knows all. We can only strive 'upwards'.
If we think we know it all, and have nothing to learn... it is the same as having blind faith.... we become stagnant and think there is no need to go ahead. Even if Abdunur et al may have great understanding that most people don't, but still, even he must continue to learn and improve on his understanding as long as he lives. We must be careful not to take authorities in anything... also not in knowledge and wisdom. Isn't it SOL that speaks about that we should not have sovereigns? Then let's not accept any authorities other than Allah. We can indeed learn from all sorts of sources, but we should never take them as the final authority on any one topic! This is what traditional practitioners of religion do. They think they have the ultimate set of knowledge and don't bother to improve from one state to the next higher state of understanding. They close the doors to evolution, refinement and growth. Those doors are given by Allah as a great blessing. We should not close them.
I too have derived some great insights from SOL, but many things I cannot grasp or handle currently. This doesn't mean I dismiss it as wrong. I just realize that it might be right or wrong, or partly of either, but I'm not ready to process it just yet. I need to mature more to handle certain topics. The point is that we should not lock ourselves to or from anything! We should not be blinded even by good feelings.Just keep searching and asking Allah for better and better understanding... and doors will open up more and more... and that journey will keep going on and on... we should never stop wanting to grow...
peace!
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We end up with a play of words. I think most posters in this thread mean the same thing, but end up debating with eachother due to what meaning they put in the words 'faith' and 'God'. Let's try to see the common ground. Let's not put most effort in showing differences.
Kaioken, do you not think there is a Creator? Abdunur does! I think that when you say God doesn't exist, you intend to put forth the same view as is found on SOL, that the typical concept of 'God' is too narrow and limited. But I think it would be better if you could put this understanding in your own words, to explain it to others... coz otherwise people just won't have a clue what you are talking about.... and that is as bad, or worse, as saying nothing at all... coz it would give the wrong impression rather than no impression at all. Also it is of no use to direct people at a website. Some will go there and read it all, but only a few. So it doesn't really achieve the goal of showing people one's own understanding that one feels happy to have come across.
Same thing with 'faith'. It all depends on what meaning we put in it. Real faith is not blind. So that's not what the quran is talking about... or anyone else should talk about. Faith and reason should go hand in hand... otherwise there is something missing. So I also agree that we should not believe in something just because. The quran says the same thing.
I can agree to this partly. The problem is what 'proof' is. It is different things to different people. Things even change in science. Things that seem clear, straight and obvious... proven.... end up being discarded for an updated understanding, especially when paradigm shifts occur.
In religion, every 'side' has proofs for their understanding. You can never come up with a proof that everyone will agree to. Only Allah will do this... and then it will be too late for second thoughts. The reason we can't find conclusive proofs for anything is that we don't know EVERYTHING about reality and existance. We know bits and pieces. Only the creator knows all. We are INSIDE creation, and therefore we can't see all of it. But we should follow the best, most constructive, peace-generating, most reasonable and sensible understanding that we currently have, depending on our current state of awareness and maturity.
In all friendliness, and speaking from my own personal experience, this attitude is very dangerous! And without a doubt, you will realize this yourself eventually. But I know how it feels! I'm always happy to gain new understanding... it's liberating and you feel veils taken away from your eyes/mind... and I feel that finally I get it... but I have come to learn that it is never the end. Even if I can not understand how and what, I now know that there is always something better ahead... always! And of course there is! There is no-one with the ultimate understanding of anything. Only Allah knows all. We can only strive 'upwards'.
If we think we know it all, and have nothing to learn... it is the same as having blind faith.... we become stagnant and think there is no need to go ahead. Even if Abdunur et al may have great understanding that most people don't, but still, even he must continue to learn and improve on his understanding as long as he lives. We must be careful not to take authorities in anything... also not in knowledge and wisdom. Isn't it SOL that speaks about that we should not have sovereigns? Then let's not accept any authorities other than Allah. We can indeed learn from all sorts of sources, but we should never take them as the final authority on any one topic! This is what traditional practitioners of religion do. They think they have the ultimate set of knowledge and don't bother to improve from one state to the next higher state of understanding. They close the doors to evolution, refinement and growth. Those doors are given by Allah as a great blessing. We should not close them.
I too have derived some great insights from SOL, but many things I cannot grasp or handle currently. This doesn't mean I dismiss it as wrong. I just realize that it might be right or wrong, or partly of either, but I'm not ready to process it just yet. I need to mature more to handle certain topics. The point is that we should not lock ourselves to or from anything! We should not be blinded even by good feelings.Just keep searching and asking Allah for better and better understanding... and doors will open up more and more... and that journey will keep going on and on... we should never stop wanting to grow...
peace!
You shouldn't have wrote that much, I can't read all of it now.
Anyway
"Kaioken, do you not think there is a Creator?"
Yes I do, he's just Not god.
Faith is blind. Faith means trusting something just because, it has nothing to do with reason, logic or truth.
What we must have is firm beliefs established through reason.
We're not inside creations we're outside creations. Allah emanates all reality from the inside out"follow the best, most constructive, peace-generating, most reasonable and sensible understanding that we currently have"
The best, most constructive, peace-generating, most reasonable and sensible understanding that I have ever read is what Abdun Nur has written in SOL, thus I will follow that.
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You shouldn't have wrote that much, I can't read all of it now.
No problem. You have all the time in the world.
We're not inside creations we're outside creations. Allah emanates all reality from the inside out
Are you outside creation? Are you not part of creation?
Just one more, simple question
How have you verified what Abdunur is saying? I hope you have verified it through reason and logic, and not just adopted it as truth because you find it sensible and impressive? You know... he says things in a way which is very difficult grasp for most people, often times using a very difficult language with terminology from particularly advanced physics. How did you verify all this? Have you determined the level of truth of plasma cosmology? I hope you are not blindly accepting the stuff as truth, be it right or wrong. I hope you have not made the mtrl on SOL your unquestionable faith.peace
ps. whatever I have written is just in a friendly, helpful spirit... sharing my own experiences and insights.