God and Free Will
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Okay so what does everyone think about the traditional Sunni notion of predestination, this idea that God has somehow predestined those who will follow him or those who will be hellbound automatically?
I myself see some issues in the first place of God's goodness and worthiness of worship if there is no free will. Would a God that forces worship without choice involved actually be worthy of worship? Wouldn't he be worthy if we have the choice to choose to worship him?
I'm not sure if this may interest some, but Judaism also does not contain this notion of no free will. The Bible says the following
Dueteronomy 3019 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
So is this Sunni notion of no free will wrong, or is the Bible wrong? Does the Koran disagree with the Bible in this matter?
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We have limited free will. We must have it or you could not be held accountable for anything we do or do not do.
It is just that God already knows the choices we will make and where we will end up, hence He alone can talk of our predestination. We are here to be tested and shown our true qualities and who we really are, not for God, because He already knows, but for us to see who we are.
We have limited free will because God can intercede or prevent what we want from happening but we will still be accountable for those intentions, good or bad. (Everything is according to His will)
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We have limited free will. We must have it or you could not be held accountable for anything we do or do not do.
It is just that God already knows the choices we will make and where we will end up, hence He alone can talk of our predestination. We are here to be tested and shown our true qualities and who we really are, not for God, because He already knows, but for us to see who we are.
We have limited free will because God can intercede or prevent what we want from happening but we will still be accountable for those intentions, good or bad. (Everything is according to His will)
We do not have free will, we have free choice.
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What is the difference between free will and free choice? Free choice is a term I often hear Calvinists using in Christianity.
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I have been studying this for sometime and here is what i've concluded
The problem one normally has is that they imagine God is within the boundries of time. Fact is that time is created and finite while God is eternal. This means that God is beyond time.
Thus God is in the future, God is in the past, and God is in the present. This is hard to imagine but so is trying to figure out the other aspects of God and therefore this is beyond human understanding.
But of course we have choice of making our future how we wish, whether we wanna follow what his book stays and accept his guidance, or reject it and do whatever. Allah knows this all cause he is all knowing and all seeing but that doesn't stop one from having complete free will as God transcends time and space.
Predestination does exist though but is limit to what we can't control like the coming of messengers, the weather, and how physics of this world. Some might argue and say everything is predestined but that is both against what the Quran has told us in that we are free to choose, the fact that God is GUIDANCE and not a controller of our movements meaning that he may sometimes influence us to do certain acts but we have an option to not do it either, and as well as it would be quite the injustice if God completely controlled everyones actions through 100% predestination as as then someone is punished after doing an action that wasn't his which God is considered as absolute justice and thus why that is not possible. Therefore why God with his great mercy has given us the ability to do what we wish for our future and how we want to live.
Of course in the end, this is a topic that is impossible for humans to completely understand and classically there have been group who have went to extremes such as saying humans are completely predestined and others who say humans are 100% free but Allah doesn't know the future which both are now considered beyond the pales of Islam. Thus why I mentioned and what many hold is considered somewhere inbetween the two extremes.
Better of all is to not really worry about all this I say. As long as you understand Allah knows the future, you have free will, and some things in this world are predestined, tis long as its not humans nor Jinn then you are fine. I personally believe that God will tell us once resurrected just as how I also believe he will in general explain better to us as to who he is
Allah knows best.
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To say, I think we have Limited Free choice.
Here would be an example of LIMITED free choice
currently, We cannot really go on other planets and live, it's not really within our ability or means. We are limited in what we can do.We are seemingly somewhat free in our ability to do things,
We are not controlled puppets or robots.We have freedoms, but they are limited.
"Say the truth from your Lord. Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve...... (18129)
Predestination?
That might have basis on some things, we are predestined to die, to eat, to drink etc
God Almighty knows where we are headingIf God curses you or blesses then you're blessed or cursed
If you pray to God for something, and then granted it, then it is soIf it was predistination, then it might be "Active prediestination"
we might have some effect on our destiny
if you do wrong, then you're destiny might be bad
if you do right, then your destiny might be positivethus it might be "active predistination"
we might just have some role in our lives
we seemingly are not robots or controlled puppets
We seemingly have some freedoms and limitation -
I have been studying this for sometime and here is what i've concluded
The problem one normally has is that they imagine God is within the boundries of time. Fact is that time is created and finite while God is eternal. This means that God is beyond time.
Thus God is in the future, God is in the past, and God is in the present. This is hard to imagine but so is trying to figure out the other aspects of God and therefore this is beyond human understanding.
But of course we have choice of making our future how we wish, whether we wanna follow what his book stays and accept his guidance, or reject it and do whatever. Allah knows this all cause he is all knowing and all seeing but that doesn't stop one from having complete free will as God transcends time and space.
Predestination does exist though but is limit to what we can't control like the coming of messengers, the weather, and how physics of this world. Some might argue and say everything is predestined but that is both against what the Quran has told us in that we are free to choose, the fact that God is GUIDANCE and not a controller of our movements meaning that he may sometimes influence us to do certain acts but we have an option to not do it either, and as well as it would be quite the injustice if God completely controlled everyones actions through 100% predestination as as then someone is punished after doing an action that wasn't his which God is considered as absolute justice and thus why that is not possible. Therefore why God with his great mercy has given us the ability to do what we wish for our future and how we want to live.
Of course in the end, this is a topic that is impossible for humans to completely understand and classically there have been group who have went to extremes such as saying humans are completely predestined and others who say humans are 100% free but Allah doesn't know the future which both are now considered beyond the pales of Islam. Thus why I mentioned and what many hold is considered somewhere inbetween the two extremes.
Better of all is to not really worry about all this I say. As long as you understand Allah knows the future, you have free will, and some things in this world are predestined, tis long as its not humans nor Jinn then you are fine. I personally believe that God will tell us once resurrected just as how I also believe he will in general explain better to us as to who he is
Allah knows best.
Think of it this way
We're the story, Allah ( Not God ) is the one imagining us.
Allah doesn't exist within the past, future or present. He created those things.
We are Allah's thoughts, Allah manifests us from the inside-out.
It's same if you imagined a story yourself, except that our imagination is limited as we currently are ( Those who are rewarded with Jannah develop their state of mind and will have infinite imagination, that's what Jannah is, not a pretty place to eat fruit and meat as much as you want, as a lot of people think ) -
Think of it this way
We're the story, Allah ( Not God ) is the one imagining us.
Allah doesn't exist within the past, future or present. He created those things.
We are Allah's thoughts, Allah manifests us from the inside-out.
It's same if you imagined a story yourself, except that our imagination is limited as we currently are ( Those who are rewarded with Jannah develop their state of mind and will have infinite imagination, that's what Jannah is, not a pretty place to eat fruit and meat as much as you want, as a lot of people think )Just as Mr. Q said where in the Quran are you getting these imaginative ideas? The Quran has made it clear to us that we are separate enough beings with free will and able to make our own decisions.
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Just as Mr. Q said where in the Quran are you getting these imaginative ideas? The Quran has made it clear to us that we are separate enough beings with free will and able to make our own decisions.
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/61/91/
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http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/61/91/
Sigh.. you know Kaiokenred, you REALLY gotta stop taking that site as the ultimate word. He isn't even using any real verses to back his claims up much of the time. Honestly its gold you read but look in many many places and make judgement yourself rather than repeatedly trusting one source.
Like for this article, it was just his idea without any real verses or anything to back him up and there are many that go against total predestination like Gods justice, the fact that he has declared us as created and therefore separate beings, and the fact thats he said we have choice. -
Sigh.. you know Kaiokenred, you REALLY gotta stop taking that site as the ultimate word. He isn't even using any real verses to back his claims up much of the time. Honestly its gold you read but look in many many places and make judgement yourself rather than repeatedly trusting one source.
Like for this article, it was just his idea without any real verses or anything to back him up and there are many that go against total predestination like Gods justice, the fact that he has declared us as created and therefore separate beings, and the fact thats he said we have choice.Maybe if you gave him the correct translation of the Quran he would use the verses.
Maybe you should read more of his articles and see how perfect sense they make.
And I never said we didn't have choice. We have a little from Allah's Ruh, a little of Allah's consciousness, so we do.
There's no such thing as destiny -
Maybe if you gave him the correct translation of the Quran he would use the verses.
Maybe you should read more of his articles and see how perfect sense they make.
And I never said we didn't have choice. We have a little from Allah's Ruh, a little of Allah's consciousness, so we do.
There's no such thing as destinyYou've linked then enough and I have read them XD I liked what he wrote about salat and other stuff. But the real problem I have is he never provides any evidence whatsoever. It might make sense, but it has nothing to back it up.
Regardless realize by saying we are Allahs imagination then we would have no free will just as the characters in our imagination don't.
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You've linked then enough and I have read them XD I liked what he wrote about salat and other stuff. But the real problem I have is he never provides any evidence whatsoever. It might make sense, but it has nothing to back it up.
Regardless realize by saying we are Allahs imagination then we would have no free will just as the characters in our imagination don't.
Our imagination and power is currently limited. We're not like Allah. We can't give our characters "Ruh" yet.
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Maybe if you gave him the correct translation of the Quran he would use the verses.
Maybe you should read more of his articles and see how perfect sense they make.
And I never said we didn't have choice. We have a little from Allah's Ruh, a little of Allah's consciousness, so we do.
There's no such thing as destinyMaybe you should have spent the last year reading and studying the Quran for yourself and thinking for yourself.
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Maybe you should have spent the last year reading and studying the Quran for yourself and thinking for yourself.
Maybe you should leave me alone. You annoy me.
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Our imagination and power is currently limited. We're not like Allah. We can't give our characters "Ruh" yet.
Thats like saying we are gonna be gods which is quite a herecy.
As Mr Q said, give the Quran a look yourself and look at various discussions rather than taking that one man as your guide.
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Thats like saying we are gonna be gods which is quite a herecy.
As Mr Q said, give the Quran a look yourself and look at various discussions rather than taking that one man as your guide.
No god can exist. Allah is not a god. So we're not going to become gods either.
And seriously stop it, you're pissing me off, I'm not going to change my firm beliefs just because you say so. I looked at many explanations and translations of the Quran. This is by far the very best.