The Sin of Sodom/ Lot's People
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I almost hesitate to raise this thread, because I know well how controversial it can get, plus the fact that I'm potentially inviting attacks to myself, but here goes.
What exactly do you think the sin of Sodom was? Was it homosexuality? Was it several sins? Was it homosexuality tied with other sins? Is the story really condemning all homosexuals, or only Lot's people for specific acts? I know the Bible says the following about Sodom's "sins", but I'm not at all sure about a Koranic perspective.
Ezekiel 1649 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.
The Bible seems to suggest that Sodom was destroyed for several reasons, not just any one specific sin. I am wondering a Koranic take on this.
Also I must now ask if it's the understanding of Islam that a person cannot be gay and Muslim? I mean, I cannot see how God could deny a person his love and presence over something they feel they were born as. I don't think gay people mean any harm or bad intent to God just because they feel attracted to the same sex.
Thoughts?
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Interesting post, good to rise controversial questions! peace
God created man in His own image!
And Allah created man from clay.
As in a holographic metaphor all the possibilities existed in the first Adam.
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So you have no specific thoughts on rather God would forbid a gay person from his presence and love or not? To me this is an important issue, because I've seen many within Islam de-humanize gay people. Like I asked a Muslim the question just yesterday what Islam offers me as a gay person, that would make me want to follow it. He replied Nothing. Gay people have no place in God's creation, and the sunnah says to kill them.
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Instead of listening to people speaking in the name of God, or, being God's "spokesmen", ask God directly! And wait for an answer.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
No, I don't believe that the immorality of the people of Lot was homosexuality.
Details were discussed in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601872.0
In a nutshell, here are the arguments against
780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
The people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE. There are cave paintings that are 12,000 years old depicting homosexual acts, and 5,000 year old recordings of homosexuality from Mesopotamia. At the very least, the Mesopotamian recordings predate the destruction of the people of Lot by 1,000 years. There is no plausible explanation that can reconcile 780 with these facts, unless homosexuality was not the lewdness in question.
Further, homosexuality is found in all known animal species.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Yeah Abdul-Hadi, those are good points. I definitely see what you mean. Thanks, I'll read that thread.
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The question worth asking is if the deeds that are narrated in relation to Lut's people were done against persons of a different sex they would have been better. I think not. You don't jump on other people's guests in order to put them to common use.
Salaam
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I agree with that too. And like I said, the Bible mentions Sodom having lots of sins. It says they did not help the poor.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
No, I don't believe that the immorality of the people of Lot was homosexuality.
Details were discussed in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601872.0
In a nutshell, here are the arguments against
780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
The people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE. There are cave paintings that are 12,000 years old depicting homosexual acts, and 5,000 year old recordings of homosexuality from Mesopotamia. At the very least, the Mesopotamian recordings predate the destruction of the people of Lot by 1,000 years. There is no plausible explanation that can reconcile 780 with these facts, unless homosexuality was not the lewdness in question.
Salaam brother,
What is your evidence for the red part?
And to my understanding "Al3alameen" doesn't mean "worlds" but something like "the creatures/the ones who have knowledge"
thus I believe 780 can be better translayted like this780 And Lot, when he said unto his folk Will ye commit lewdness such as no creature with knowledge ever did before you?"
Further, homosexuality is found in all known animal species.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
We have to follow the guidance of Allah not the behavior of animals. There are animals that eat their own children, so is it then ok for us humans to eat our children?
Salaam,
Bender -
I almost hesitate to raise this thread, because I know well how controversial it can get, plus the fact that I'm potentially inviting attacks to myself, but here goes.
What exactly do you think the sin of Sodom was? Was it homosexuality? Was it several sins? Was it homosexuality tied with other sins? Is the story really condemning all homosexuals, or only Lot's people for specific acts? I know the Bible says the following about Sodom's "sins", but I'm not at all sure about a Koranic perspective.
Ezekiel 1649 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.
The Bible seems to suggest that Sodom was destroyed for several reasons, not just any one specific sin. I am wondering a Koranic take on this.
Also I must now ask if it's the understanding of Islam that a person cannot be gay and Muslim? I mean, I cannot see how God could deny a person his love and presence over something they feel they were born as. I don't think gay people mean any harm or bad intent to God just because they feel attracted to the same sex.
Thoughts?
The sin here is pagan worshiping and disobeying the message. Homosexuality has nothing to do with God destroying nations. Homosexuality according to the people of Lot was rape.
The story of Lot is also about aggressive homosexual rape. It says
SURA XXIX-29. What! do ye approach men?, and stop folks on the highway?
SURA XI-79-81. They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!'
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He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!'
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(The angels) said, 'O Lot! verily, we are the messengers of thy Lord, they shall certainly not reach thee;
They were rapist.
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Peace & Welcomes back at you
To start, please don't think that i'm a homophobe or spewing venom at you. I myself have had similar experience in my life. sometimes truth hurts, sorry
Moreover, It really wouldn't matter what you're attracted to, Self control should be sought after , as pre-marital sexual relationships are not really lawful (236)
Based on the Quranic Perspective, I personally currently believe that Homosexuality would be something which is not along the lines of right conduct.
In some topics, God almighty does not explicitly stipulate clear "how-to" commandment, however, he has cited to us from every example in the Quran, that we may think/ponder/reflect and maybe adopt that example and bring it into our own application (3058, 3927).Please ponder over the Example of Lot,
?Lot said to his people, "You commit such an Abomination; no one in the world has done it before!You practice sex with the men, instead of the women.
Indeed, you are a Transgressing people." (780-811)?Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an Abomination, publicly, while you see?You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of the women.
Indeed, you are Ignorant people." (2754-55)"Do you have sex with the males, of all the people? and You Forsake the wives that your Lord has created for you! Indeed, you are Transgressing people." (26165-166)
?He said, "I am of your act, one those who are short (e.g refrain from your actions) ? (2616
?His people came rushing; they had grown accustomed to their sinful acts. He said, "O my people, These are my Daughters , they are Purer for you. So revere God and don?t embarrass me with my guests. Is there not one reasonable man among you?" (117?His people responded by saying, "Drive them out from your town. They are people who wish to be Pure." (782)
Yes, this topic was discussed in, i was one of the contributors,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601872.0Again, please don't think i'm directing this at you personally. This would be my current belief and it would extend to everyone, including me.
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Peace & Welcomes back at you
To start, please don't think that i'm a homophobe or spewing venom at you. I myself have had similar experience in my life. sometimes truth hurts, sorry
Moreover, It really wouldn't matter what you're attracted to, Self control should be sought after , as pre-marital sexual relationships are not really lawful (236)
Based on the Quranic Perspective, I personally currently believe that Homosexuality would be something which is not along the lines of right conduct.
In some topics, God almighty does not explicitly stipulate clear "how-to" commandment, however, he has cited to us from every example in the Quran, that we may think/ponder/reflect and maybe adopt that example and bring it into our own application (3058, 3927).Please ponder over the Example of Lot,
?Lot said to his people, "You commit such an Abomination; no one in the world has done it before!You practice sex with the men, instead of the women.
Indeed, you are a Transgressing people." (780-811)?Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an Abomination, publicly, while you see?You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of the women.
Indeed, you are Ignorant people." (2754-55)"Do you have sex with the males, of all the people? and You Forsake the wives that your Lord has created for you! Indeed, you are Transgressing people." (26165-166)
?He said, "I am of your act, one those who are short (e.g refrain from your actions) ? (2616
?His people came rushing; they had grown accustomed to their sinful acts. He said, "O my people, These are my Daughters , they are Purer for you. So revere God and don?t embarrass me with my guests. Is there not one reasonable man among you?" (117?His people responded by saying, "Drive them out from your town. They are people who wish to be Pure." (782)
Yes, this topic was discussed in, i was one of the contributors,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601872.0Again, please don't think i'm directing this at you personally. This would be my current belief and it would extend to everyone, including me.
You will find the same adjectives used against the People of Noah or Hud or Saleh. None of them were homosexuals. However its important to know that the people of Lot were rapist, that is not the same thing.y wanted to gang rape the angels who visited Lot. This is not a homsexuality issue as they could habe been heterosexuals and still behaved the same way.
Maybe you mean whether homosexuality is a sin or not. But then homsexuality is not the same as adultery or murder, so even if we consider it a sin its not a grave sin. The verse you are quoting are disbelievers. This is a very dangerous practice, taking verses about the disbelievers and applying that on believers. Even if the poeple of Lot were not homosexuals God would have destroyed them anyways.
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So why was Lot refraining from Their homosexual Acts?
?He said, "I am of your act, one those who are short (e.g refrain from your actions) ? (2616 -
So why did Lot offer his daughters (female), instead of the Male guests? (his female daughters must have been better for them no?
?His people came rushing; they had grown accustomed to their sinful acts. He said, "O my people, These are my Daughters , they are Purer for you. So revere God and don?t embarrass me with my guests. Is there not one reasonable man among you?" (117 -
So are you going to have same-sex marriage? because lawfully, you cannot have pre-marital intimate relationships, unless maybe if it's with a concubine figure under your possesion (236) ?
, this topic was discussed in, i was one of the contributors, please read it till the end
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601872.0 -
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Salaam brother,
What is your evidence for the red part?
And to my understanding "Al3alameen" doesn't mean "worlds" but something like "the creatures/the ones who have knowledge"
thus I believe 780 can be better translayted like this780 And Lot, when he said unto his folk Will ye commit lewdness such as no creature with knowledge ever did before you?"
We have to follow the guidance of Allah not the behavior of animals. There are animals that eat their own children, so is it then ok for us humans to eat our children?
Salaam,
Bender@Bender Salaam and Greetings and Peace handshake
Science can't come up with an exact date for the destruction of the people of Lot. This is one reason why I stated "around" 1953 BCE. However, there is a range of dates--and they don't date as far back as the first proven examples of homosexuality in humans. The cave paintings are circumstantial but strong evidence; the Mesopotamian recordings are damning evidence. The people of Lot would have had to have been destroyed before 3000 BCE if they were the first human society to practice homosexuality.
http//www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html
Here is a reasonable postulation (note article 4.2) that indicates 1953 BCE
http//www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/abraham.html
Even with the change in words of 780 (which may indeed be a better translation), there is strong evidence for homosexuality in humans before the existence of the people of Lot. It is an incredible claim if one were to say that the people of Lot were the first ones to have knowledge.
We are given brains to think, and should not disregard evidence merely because it challenges existing concepts.
Why mention animals? Because they are part of creation. If homosexuality is abominable, it sure is common!
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
Even if the people of Lot were not destroyed for homosexuality, that does not endorse homosexual acts.
The definition of homosexual is not limited to those who engage in homosexual acts--the mere attraction to the same sex suffices. If a man is sexually attracted to other men, the man that is attracted is a homosexual.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@Bender Salaam and Greetings and Peace handshake
Science can't come up with an exact date for the destruction of the people of Lot. This is one reason why I stated "around" 1953 BCE. However, there is a range of dates--and they don't date as far back as the first proven examples of homosexuality in humans. The cave paintings are circumstantial but strong evidence; the Mesopotamian recordings are damning evidence. The people of Lot would have had to have been destroyed before 3000 BCE if they were the first human society to practice homosexuality.
http//www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html
Here is a reasonable postulation (note article 4.2) that indicates 1953 BCE
http//www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/abraham.html
Even with the change in words of 780 (which may indeed be a better translation), there is strong evidence for homosexuality in humans before the existence of the people of Lot. It is an incredible claim if one were to say that the people of Lot were the first ones to have knowledge.
Salaam and Greetings and Peace handshake
I believe you misunderstand the verse (or it's me who misunderstand it).
The people of Lot where the first people who had knowledge about the fact that their act was not good, but still they did it.
That's why Lot uses the word Al3Alameen and not AnNaas for example.
The evidence that they knew what they were doing was not correct is the next verse782 The only response of his people was "Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!"
Maybe before the people of Lot there were also people and animals who did this, but they had no knowledge about wether it is good or bad.
We are given brains to think, and should not disregard evidence merely because it challenges existing concepts.
I agree with you, but for me the only evidence that counts is evidence from AlQuran.
From my current understanding from the verses of Lot is that it is talking about homosexuality and that it's not a good thing to do.
BUT if you or someone else understand that it's talking about something different and that homosexuality is ok then of course to each his/her understanding and Allah is witness about our true understandings in our hearts about His revelations.Why mention animals? Because they are part of creation. If homosexuality is abominable, it sure is common!
there are a lot of things that are common nowadays and also part of the creation, does that make them right for us human beings?
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
Even if the people of Lot were not destroyed for homosexuality, that does not endorse homosexual acts.
The definition of homosexual is not limited to those who engage in homosexual acts--the mere attraction to the same sex suffices. If a man is sexually attracted to other men, the man that is attracted is a homosexual.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Of course Allah can put every example He likes, but he didn't gave us an example for us to follow the homosexual behavior or cannibalism of animals, but he gave us the story of Lot, to ponder on it.
Salaam,
Bender -
people must consider the fact that the only rightful intimate relationship allowed would be with spouces and/or "concubine" figures under your position. 236
Thus, One must be maried in order to have an intimate relationship, or have a concubine figure in his possession. -
Greetings and Peace, all group
people must consider the fact that the only rightful intimate relationship allowed would be with spouces and/or "concubine" figures under your position. 236
Thus, One must be maried in order to have an intimate relationship, or have a concubine figure in his possession.This is also my understanding.
I just don't find evidence that the reason that the people of Lot were destroyed was homosexuality.
Many people cite the people of Lot as the reason why homosexuality is "haram." Some do this from homophobia (looking for any example that supports them, ignoring others--i.e., cherry picking), others from tradition, and some people just believe it. Those that believe it have a leg to stand on (until disproven)--the others, not so much. Evidence has been presented that makes the people-of-Lot/homosexuality link pretty darn tenuous.
The evidence that I find compelling against homosexuality regards marriage--and my understanding of what is lewd sends a "spidey signal" that homosexuality is not okay for myself (even if I weren't already married).
422-23 does not place male family members off limits for marriage. Does this then mean that a son can marry his father? Naw! rotfl
Homosexuality in AQ is similar to cannibalism; it is alluded to in a negative sense, but not outright forbidden by name.
There are places that issue same-sex marriages. It is a legal marriage (but not universally recognized). ISA, this is sufficient to count as the marriage for intimacy. Actually, I place little importance on the document--it is the commitment that should count in any marriage. What if two illiterate people wanted to marry?
Personally, I feel that ALL that government should do regarding "marriages" is issue civil unions. Anyone wanting to marry can go to nongovernment providers for a marriage. This way, government does not discriminate against LBGT, nor prefer heterosexual couples. One can't be "more equal" than another in the eyes of the law. If it is good enough for one group, it should be good enough for all groups. I believe the principles of justice and fairness to be established firmly in the Deen. No compulsion, for instance.
Far be it from me to interfere in other people's private matters; it is between them and the Creator of all.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Homosexuality in AQ is similar to cannibalism; it is alluded to in a negative sense, but not outright forbidden by name.
Nice analogy, and somehow make sense..
If a human wanted to eat the meat from another human dead corpses (from the grave)
Then it's a 'gross' act (for my taste)..
But what is definitely 'evil' is when a human killed/murder another human being for his/her meat...Thus
If a human male love to stick his P in another male A and both are 'fine' by it..
Then it's a 'gross' act (for my taste)..
But what is definitely 'evil' is when a human male rape another human male or female...The case for "Sodom" is perhaps a city full or rapist (which happened to be homesexual) and highway robbers...
The "Somalian pirates" of ancient times...
Make sense to wipe them off the map.. for the common good of others..Salam / Peace
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Okay but why would a person who is gay want to disobey God by being who they are? It's not like it's a choice, it's not like same sex love and relationships hurts anybody. The sin of Sodom, the sexual one, seems to be related to rape. Even in the Bible it describes it so.
It says the people of Sodom gathered outside Lot's house and asked to send the angels out so they may have sexual intercourse. It was a mob wanting to rape the angels. Also, it says Lot's sons-in-law engaged to his daughters to wed were in the crowd. I can give the verses if you like.
It further says the men of the town tried to break down the door and the angels blinded them. Definitely implies gang violence, not homosexual love.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Okay but why would a person who is gay want to disobey God by being who they are? It's not like it's a choice, it's not like same sex love and relationships hurts anybody. The sin of Sodom, the sexual one, seems to be related to rape. Even in the Bible it describes it so.
It says the people of Sodom gathered outside Lot's house and asked to send the angels out so they may have sexual intercourse. It was a mob wanting to rape the angels. Also, it says Lot's sons-in-law engaged to his daughters to wed were in the crowd. I can give the verses if you like.
It further says the men of the town tried to break down the door and the angels blinded them. Definitely implies gang violence, not homosexual love.
The incident in the Bible is not confirmed in AQ. Some believe the narration of the Bible, others do not. The people of Lot had several things to answer for.
2929 "You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"
I can't say that I feel that being homosexual is wrong. A person doesn't choose their feelings or attractions, but is surely responsible for acts and actions done with knowledge or lack of care.
A person can make choices regarding their actions. A married person usually has opportunities to cheat on their spouse. Should a person in such a position do what is easy and pleasurable? <totally rhetorical question> It is often necessary to practice self denial in order to live an ethical life.
2214 Or did you expect that you would enter the Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said "When is the victory of GOD?" Yes indeed, the victory of GOD is near.
AQ is specific where it needs to be...and thought to be complete by those who follow its Guidance. ALLAH did not run out of words. Homosexual acts are not outright banned for a reason; they are an individual judgement call.
ISA, nobody will be tasked beyond individual capacity. The part about no compulsion in the Deen is important. Most everybody prizes autonomy when it applies to self.
2286 GOD does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns. "Our Lord, do not mind us if we forget or make mistakes; our Lord, do not place a burden upon us as You have placed upon those before us; our Lord, do not place upon us what we cannot bear; pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; You are our patron, so grant us victory over the disbelieving people."
May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.peace
~Abdul-Hadi