The purpose of verbally asking Allah for help
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hi Kaiokenred and lordfox,
I just again wonder, how is it salaat is equal to sheep action or kind of ritual?
And the word "worship" does it not means perform a duty or task; function as; serve; ??
Guyz, i understand that you know something but let's do not make from fly a big elephant.I have special question to you, what do you think about juma salaat; is it like ritual thing 2 ?
p.s. please don't give me just link from http//servantofthelight.com/, USE your words.
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hi Kaiokenred and lordfox,
I just again wonder, how is it salaat is equal to sheep action or kind of ritual?
And the word "worship" does it not means perform a duty or task; function as; serve; ??
Guyz, i understand that you know something but let's do not make from fly a big elephant.I have special question to you, what do you think about juma salaat; is it like ritual thing 2 ?
p.s. please don't give me just link from http//servantofthelight.com/, USE your words.
Start by understanding that "salaat" does neither translate to nor is a form of ritual prayer. As for the difference between worship and servitude, you can use a dictionary. This is not even the subject of discussion anyway.
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Start by understanding that "salaat" does neither translate to nor is a form of ritual prayer. As for the difference between worship and servitude, you can use a dictionary. This is not even the subject of discussion anyway.
I just trying to understand your point man.
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God Almighty would be the ONLY being worthy of all worship
how would you act in front of a king?
Would you not show some humbleness and respect? Or would you like him to go "off with his head"How would you act before God, the Kind of the universe?
would you not bow down when speaking, or show some respect?Right!
man do you understand what Kaiokenred and lordfox say about salaat? what is your opinion on that;
http//servantofthelight.com/ did you read it ? specially salaat part -
Isn't the act of verbally asking Allah for something a direct and clear contradiction with its (Allah's) omniscience? Why not?
What are you saying? How could an act of verbally imploring Allah for help be a contradiction of Allah's omniscience? If you verbally ask Allah for help, does that mean that Allah is not omniscient? I don't understand this sort of logic. I don't think there is any contradiction at all. First of all it is not logically possible to have a contradiction from the sentence you put forth.
Second of all Verbally asking Allah for anything is a way to direct your mind and thoughts onto the existence of Allah. It is a way of connecting and communicating. It is an outreach by us. How can this contradict the omniscience of Allah? We are not talking about locations here... where is Allah, where are we, are Allah in us or outside us; part of us or separate.... this is not the point. Let's not trying to encompass and understand Allah beyond our capacity. We should fill our consciousness with the awareness of Allah! This is part what prayer(please, I'm not refering to namaz or solaa!) is all about.
What else are we supposed to do?? Just manifest stuff, or just shut up and be quiet because Allah already knows everything anyway? We have to express ourselves... this is how we will get response and feedback from Allah and creation. By NOT asking and thinking, we will just be a vegetable... useless, without conscious relation to Allah. We can not hide away. We have free will and are responsible for creating our own thoughts and actions. Why trying to avoid Allah? Why not ask Allah for help?
Peace
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What are you saying? How could an act of verbally imploring Allah for help be a contradiction of Allah's omniscience? If you verbally ask Allah for help, does that mean that Allah is not omniscient? I don't understand this sort of logic. I don't think there is any contradiction at all. First of all it is not logically possible to have a contradiction from the sentence you put forth.
Second of all Verbally asking Allah for anything is a way to direct your mind and thoughts onto the existence of Allah. It is a way of connecting and communicating. It is an outreach by us. How can this contradict the omniscience of Allah? We are not talking about locations here... where is Allah, where are we, are Allah in us or outside us; part of us or separate.... this is not the point. Let's not trying to encompass and understand Allah beyond our capacity. We should fill our consciousness with the awareness of Allah! This is part what prayer(please, I'm not refering to namaz or solaa!) is all about.
What else are we supposed to do?? Just manifest stuff, or just shut up and be quiet because Allah already knows everything anyway? We have to express ourselves... this is how we will get response and feedback from Allah and creation. By NOT asking and thinking, we will just be a vegetable... useless, without conscious relation to Allah. We can not hide away. We have free will and are responsible for creating our own thoughts and actions. Why trying to avoid Allah? Why not ask Allah for help?
Peace
Before wriggeling and stressing all around like a savage chicken, learn the difference between omniscence and omnipotence.
The question is why it is felt so needed to verbally and/or mentally expressing our needs to the creator while it (Allah) already knows what we need, feel like, want and thus will already choose to grant us the wish or not. Words have little importance compared to what is truly felt.
What about the human beings who are incapable of using the right hemisphere of their brain, and thus can neither speak nor verbally think and thus cannot express their needs with words to their creator? What about the ancient civilizations and present tribes who do not use words but sounds to communicate?
Secondly, to say that verbally (or mentally) asking Allah for something is a way to direct our thoughts and minds to it, is a complete risible idiocy to say the least. But perhaps you have never heard of meditation or lucid dreaming, in that case, you are not blamable.
In sum, your use of strawman and inability to process the main argument correctly through your mind, should be enough reason for me to even not bother answering you, but as I did the effort of writing one, please take the time to reflect, cogitate and ponder upon my response herewith before rushing a sloppy and excited comment.
Thank you.
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What about the human beings who are incapable of using the right hemisphere of their brain, and thus can neither speak nor verbally think and thus cannot express their needs with words to their creator? What about the ancient civilizations and present tribes who do not use words but sounds to communicate?
I have no idea. Are there people who are unable to use only their right hemisphere? If they cannot think thoughts, or as you say, verbal thoughts, then I'm sure Allah knows this as well (since Allah knows all). I believe Allah is just. Again, regarding the tribes... Allah knows... I don't know.
But that wasn't my point. I mean that verbal expression, whether audible or just mental, helps us focus our attention. I didn't say that those who cannot use verbal expression is without means of being connected to Allah. Allah knows about all possible cases. I was just giving my idea of the use of verbal expression.
It is felt so needed because this is how we express ourselves. How else would we do it?
Secondly, to say that verbally (or mentally) asking Allah for something is a way to direct our thoughts and minds to it, is a complete risible idiocy to say the least. But perhaps you have never heard of meditation or lucid dreaming, in that case, you are not blamable.
Why would it be risible idiocy to say that verbal expression is one way of directing our thoughts??? Exactly how does the existance of meditiation make this idea idiocy? I can't see how. Please explain.
Before wriggeling and stressing all around like a savage chicken, learn the difference between omniscence and omnipotence.
I'm not sure why you mention omnipotence, as it has not been part of our discussion. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't know the difference between it and omniscience. The whole talk has been about the need to express verbally your thoughts when Allah anyway is omniscient (knows everything). confused
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I have no idea. Are there people who are unable to use only their right hemisphere? If they cannot think thoughts, or as you say, verbal thoughts, then I'm sure Allah knows this as well (since Allah knows all). I believe Allah is just. Again, regarding the tribes... Allah knows... I don't know.
But that wasn't my point. I mean that verbal expression, whether audible or just mental, helps us focus our attention. I didn't say that those who cannot use verbal expression is without means of being connected to Allah. Allah knows about all possible cases. I was just giving my idea of the use of verbal expression.
It is felt so needed because this is how we express ourselves. How else would we do it?
Why would it be risible idiocy to say that verbal expression is one way of directing our thoughts??? Exactly how does the existance of meditiation make this idea idiocy? I can't see how. Please explain.
I'm not sure why you mention omnipotence, as it has not been part of our discussion. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't know the difference between it and omniscience. The whole talk has been about the need to express verbally your thoughts when Allah anyway is omniscient (knows everything). confused
I have an idea. Prayers are worthless and stupid. How about that?
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define 'prayers'
What's there to definite?
"Prayer is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity or object of worship through deliberate communication."
"Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another. Some ritualize the act of prayer, requiring a strict sequence of actions or placing a restriction on who is permitted to pray, while others teach that prayer may be practiced spontaneously by anyone at any time."
The bold shows just how illogical prayers are
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I have no idea. Are there people who are unable to use only their right hemisphere? If they cannot think thoughts, or as you say, verbal thoughts, then I'm sure Allah knows this as well (since Allah knows all). I believe Allah is just. Again, regarding the tribes... Allah knows... I don't know.
This is the biggest problem. Instead of investigating the many reasons and flaws behind your idea, you prefer to quickly engage in debate, which is absolutely useless and time-wasting for both of us because you only blabber. This is why I usually ignore messages such as yours and nurmuhammed's; unpreparedness and precipitated speech.
Why would it be risible idiocy to say that verbal expression is one way of directing our thoughts??? Exactly how does the existance of meditiation make this idea idiocy? I can't see how. Please explain.
Because the whole point of meditation, which is a proven process to connect with the creative force as done by the many, if not all, prophets over time, is a complete antonym of verbal thought and expression.
I'm not sure why you mention omnipotence, as it has not been part of our discussion. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't know the difference between it and omniscience. The whole talk has been about the need to express verbally your thoughts when Allah anyway is omniscient (knows everything). confused
Read your previous message...
Anyway, this is going nowhere as it is obvious that you have neither a firm stance nor solid arguments to prove your point. You are absolutely free to continue to do as you wish, but please, pollute this thread no more. -
Kaiokenred,
If you don't mind, I'm interested in learning more about your ideas about our relationship with Allah. I'd like to get to know your ideas in order to expand my own view.
For example, I would be interested in learning about your take on human beings' relationship with Allah. If prayer is stupid then how can one have a communication? I'd like to know what you think makes sense.
Peace
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Because the whole point of meditation, which is a proven process to connect with the creative force as done by the many, if not all, prophets over time, is a complete antonym of verbal thought and expression.
I agree on meditation being a tremendous way of connecting with the creative force. However, you seem to miss out on a few vital things about thoughts, what they are, how they work, how they can be used, and what they can do for your circumstance and reality. Properly managed thoughts are also proven to connect with creative force.
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Kaiokenred,
If you don't mind, I'm interested in learning more about your ideas about our relationship with Allah. I'd like to get to know your ideas in order to expand my own view.
For example, I would be interested in learning about your take on human beings' relationship with Allah. If prayer is stupid then how can one have a communication? I'd like to know what you think makes sense.
Peace
me 2. !
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Kaiokenred,
If you don't mind, I'm interested in learning more about your ideas about our relationship with Allah. I'd like to get to know your ideas in order to expand my own view.
For example, I would be interested in learning about your take on human beings' relationship with Allah. If prayer is stupid then how can one have a communication? I'd like to know what you think makes sense.
Peace
Everything I believe ( about Islam ) you can find in servantofthelight.com
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Everything I believe ( about Islam ) you can find in servantofthelight.com
man, u gotta be kiddin .. come ON, can you leave this Hadiths of yours...
I just don't understand, how salaat be a not contact prayer.. If GOD is a being then you should make a individ kind of connection with HIM, so you can can ask him and and gain a certainty.
I'm not talking about belief here, i'm talking about the ONE.
In Quran mentions about war that we can shorten salaat; moderate tone, congregation, Direction, specific times , position (prostrating, standing like Mary did)....
SO what is this all about man!!?? -
D
man, u gotta be kiddin .. come ON, can you leave this Hadiths of yours...
I just don't understand, how salaat be a not contact prayer.. If GOD is a being then you should make a individ kind of connection with HIM, so you can can ask him and and gain a certainty.
I'm not talking about belief here, i'm talking about the ONE.
In Quran mentions about war that we can shorten salaat; moderate tone, congregation, Direction, specific times , position (prostrating, standing like Mary did)....
SO what is this all about man!!??God doesn't exist. Allah is not a god
Also the translations in the Quran mentioning that we can shorten salaat, moderate tone, congregation, Direction, specific times, position, are all mistranslations and misconceptions, most of them have even been explained.
How can salat be a contact prayer when it totally makes no sense?
How can the ritual prayer of the Prophet console people or make them happy? (9103)
When you are in sudden disaster or facing sudden death, how can the two strangers who are to be witnesses (and who may not know anything about the Arab religion) perform the ritual prayer before swearing to Allah that they will be truthful? (5106)
How did all the people of a town and those living in the surrounding areas preserve their ritual prayer (wa hum alaa Sol-laa-tihim haafizuun) as soon as they heard the message of the Reading (692)? It may have included non-believers, Christians or Jews.
Why is it that yuSollu means ritual prayer in 4102 but in 3356 it means honour and support?
Likewise, how does the word yuSollee in 339 turn into ritual prayer while in 3343 it is said to mean honour?
Solluu in 3356 and Sollee in 9103 have come to mean honour and supplication. In 75 31 and in 9610 the word Sol-laa is said to mean ritual prayer. Why is that?
How do the birds in the sky and everything between the heavens and the earth (including frogs, termites and trees, for example) perform their ritual prayer? (2441) LOL
How could the ritual prayer (Sol-laa-tuka) of Shuaib in 1187 have changed the economic system of the people?
Why are the same Sol-laa-waatee in 2238 (?guard your ?Sol-laa-waatee?) and 9 99 (the Messenger?s Sol-laa-waatee) understood differently?
Why are the same words Sol-laa-waa-tun in 2157 (ulaa ika alaihim Sol-laa-waatun) and 2240 (wa Sol-laa-waatun, wa masaa-jidu) stated with different meanings?
Is there anyone performing the ?ritual prayer? by controversial talk and rebellion (Sol-laa-tuhum ?indal baiti mukaan wa tashdiyyan) anywhere in the world? If so, where and how? (835)
How did the word muSollan (singular) evolve to mean location or place for performing ritual prayer in 2125 when the same word muSollin (plural) is understood as the people who perform the ritual prayer in 1074? -
Muhammad is the Messenger of God. Those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers merciful one to another. You see them bowing, prostrating, seeking blessing, bounty and good pleasure (of God). Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows strong and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them it may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage(4829)
Genesis 171-4 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Deuteronomy 56-9 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them nor serve them...
Psalm 956 O come, let us worship and bow down let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
Revelations 711-12 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Joshua 76-7 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord God, wherefore hast Thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!
Numbers 1620-22 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt Thou be wroth with the all of the congregation?
Numbers 206 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.
Matthew 2636-39 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gesthemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be very sorrowful and heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death; tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou Wilt.
Then the man bowed down and worshipped the Lord. (Genesis, 2426)
...So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 2930)
and I bowed down and worshiped the Lord. I praised the Lord?(Genesis, 244
.... Then the people bowed down and worshipped...did just what the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron. (Exodus, 1227-2
and they believed. And when they heard that the Lord was concerned about them and had seen their misery, they bowed down and worshipped. (Exodus, 431)
and bowed down...three times, with his face to the ground. (1 Samuel, 2041)
Ezra praised the Lord, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground. (Nehemiah, 86)
Abram bowed with his face touching the ground...(Genesis, 173)
When Abraham's servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the Lord. (Genesis, 2452)
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshipped. (Exodus, 34
When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. (Numbers, 164)
the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened. (Numbers, 244)
Then Joshua bowed to the ground in reverence...(Joshua, 514)
When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The Lord?He is God! The Lord?He is God!"(1 Kings, 1839)
when I bow down in the temple...may the Lord forgive your servant for this. (2 Kings, 51
they bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord. (1 Chronicles, 2920)
they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshipped and gave thanks to the Lord...(2 Chronicles, 73)
... the king and everyone present with him knelt down and worshipped... ordered... to praise the Lord. So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 2929-30)
Then he fell to the ground in worship and said ?Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.? (Job, 120-21)
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Lol bible, why don't you start giving examples from hadiths too?