Evolution or Intelligent design ?
-
Shalom Aleikhem,
This thread is intended to discuss the theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design. Yes you can join in. It would be nice if you don't presume and assume based on hearsay prior to advocating for either theories.
Peace
---------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem,
I have always had the idea that God existed since I was a small child but never had what could be called "evidence" until I really started reading Intelligent Design arguments and that set a light off in my head/heart, so to speak. Intelligent Design is a completely rational, logical, scientific based argument for the existence of our Creator that is not dependent upon any kind of Scripture.
It would help if you can point out those "completely rational, logical, scientific based arguments" so that we can begin a discussion on specific topics.
For me, the structure of universe, the structure of our bodies and all living things, DNA, the structure of cells, microbiology, biology and chemistry all point towards a Creator. I always viewed the argument that there is an irreducible complexity to these things that random, purposeless, chance cannot account for. Hence the only rational, logical conclusion is God exists and He is the Creator. (this is a very abbreviated argument here)
Please put forth the explanation for irreducible complexity. The ones I already know are weak and bad. It would be an interesting topic to discuss.
Some very good, short, easily readable books on this is Darwins Black Box by Michael Behe and Signs of Itelligence by Behe and James Kushiner. They are scientists who put forth a non theological, scientific argument for the existence of a Creator and they make it easy for the average reader to understand the science behind it. For me, they were, among some other books too, absolutely profound in cementing my belief in the existence of God.
I have not read them. The honest truth would be that neither am I willing to. Can you share the arguments from those books which proved "Intelligent Design" theory for you ? It would be a much more efficient process to discuss on case by case basis instead of entire books.
Peace
-------------- Student of Allah -
It's been awhile since I discussed it all but I'd be happy too.
First off, it's not a matter of Evolution OR Intelligent Design. They are not entirely exclusive of each other. The problem with discussing evolution is we have to define what it is. There is two types of evolutionary theory. One is micro-evolution, which is the variation within a given species. There is ample and abundant examples of that easily observable in Nature. For example there are many different races of human beings. That is micro-evolution. We are all different but we are all still human. There are 100's of species of dogs and cats, thousands of different species of butterflies, etc. but they are all still dogs, cats and butterflies.
Macro-evolution, on the other hand is the changing from one species to another and there is scant evidence for that outside of theoretical postulations. Dogs don't transform into humans and cats dont transform into butterflies. The fossil record does not support the theory of macro-evolution.
Many times when talking about evolution, the two forms get sold and marketed as one item which is misleading. Micro-evolution is used invariably to sell the macro but they are should be looked at separately. That's where Intelligent Design comes into play. It's simply a way of looking at things and examining observable evidence. It's basically a way of asking a simple question, "Does what I am looking at display elements of random, purposeless chance? Or is there evidence of forethought and purpose denoting Intelligence?"
I have to go and will explain more later.
-
Shalom Aleikhem,
Good that you joined the conversation. I hope we learn things.
It's been awhile since I discussed it all but I'd be happy too.
First off, it's not a matter of Evolution OR Intelligent Design. They are not entirely exclusive of each other. The problem with discussing evolution is we have to define what it is. There is two types of evolutionary theory. One is micro-evolution, which is the variation within a given species. There is ample and abundant examples of that easily observable in Nature. For example there are many different races of human beings. That is micro-evolution. We are all different but we are all still human. There are 100's of species of dogs and cats, thousands of different species of butterflies, etc. but they are all still dogs, cats and butterflies.
Micro and Macro evolution are different based on the time-scale and time-frame. An analogy for micro would be the amount of net profit Bill Gates made from the copy of Windows that I purchased. Ofcourse, the "macro" would be the overall net profit Bill Gates made from his Microsoft Corporation.
It is absurd to state that one believes in micro-economy but refuses to admit macro-economy. Because the "macro" is like a sum of the "micro"s. Let us put it this way, what you are saying is that you believe that if I deposit a dollar a day in your family bank account, it gives your family 365 dollars extra in a year, and for a 50 year time frame it gives you $18250 extra. Your family will still probably remain in similar social group. At the same time, you are refusing that given enough time, for example, 10000 years it would make your family a Millionaire ($3.65m) or a Billionaire in in 3 million years and shift your family to entirely different social group/s!!
The human example speaks for itself. Originating out of Africa, now we have so many different races. Do you know about "Ring Species" (click) ?
http//files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/29a79d501d3c.gif
This will help you enormously to understand this subject. As the species keeps on changing little at a time, giving rise to different types of the same species (in different environment), there comes a point when the two animals at the two ends of the ring can not interbreed !! That is the magnitude of difference that we already see in nature. Given more time.... I don't think I need to finish the sentence.
Dogs don't transform into humans and cats dont transform into butterflies.
You have to be kidding me. Why would that happen ? Who said that happened in the first place ? You cant have anything like a croco-duck if evolution is working the way it is supposed to. That would be totally random, and in most cases impossible.
The fossil record does not support the theory of macro-evolution.
First of all, if at all...we are lucky to have the fossils. We need to depend on the animals dying in a way that they can become fossils. Then there is the challenge of excavation. The world is a pretty big place, and it is not reasonable to excavate all of it.
Having said that, the fossils record complement evolution. You never find the wrong animal in the wrong place. Just as the theory predicts !! As stated before, we are lucky to have the fossils. Since evolution works in a gradual slow manner, to confirm what you are looking for through fossils, you would need every other generation of a species to die and get lucky and fossilize and we to get lucky and find it in a place we are allowed to excavate. Is that a reasonable demand ?
But I am still wondering what you meant by "they do not support macro-evolution" !!
That's where Intelligent Design comes into play. It's simply a way of looking at things and examining observable evidence. It's basically a way of asking a simple question, "Does what I am looking at display elements of random, purposeless chance? Or is there evidence of forethought and purpose denoting Intelligence?"
I am sorry, I did not get this part at all. Where did "intelligent design" come in from ? I hope you will share some examples to let me understand what you are talking about.
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
From a Darren E. Irwin article
<blockquote>Ernst Mayr called ring species ?the perfect demonstration of speciation? because they show a range of intermediate forms between two species. They allow us to use variation in space to infer how changes occurred over time. This approach is especially powerful when we can reconstruct the biogeographical history of a ring species, as has been done in two cases.</blockquote>
Speciation being geographic and/or sexual isolation between two directly related phyla, essentially the <i>same</i> phyla, but acquiring variations. The variations produce the 'ring', and at a point where sexual isolation occurs, or the ability to breed only hybrids, then speciation has occurred.Due to times required, it is difficult to observe these occurrences, although with various insects (drosophila et al), it has been observed due to the short gestation times. Here's an example I came across of arthropod experiments along those lines
http//biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/loreau/pdfs/fournierloreauecography.pdfWith ground-beetles, examples are given of variations, things like 'habit preferences' such as eating habits , and population location preferences. Noted was that the adding of hedges within their populations produced group separations due to habitat preferences.
http//www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/irwin.htmlAnother example is beak sizes with Darwin's finches and various fish populations, such as the Ensatina Salamanders, which over time, differed in color and size, and ceased interbreeding. But was it totally genetic, or just preferential? One of the frustrations in defining species, whether fish or beetles, is determining when-in-fact speciation has actually occurred.
Speciation occurs , but is difficult to determine. Alleged speciations have occurred, but have returned to a single cohabital species over time. <em>And</em>, there are alleged to be 250 to 350 thousand beetle species worldwide. But guess what? They're all nearly identical in bodily components, varying only in color, proportions, and some metabolic features. Yeah, they're <i>still</i> beetles ...
So the question I raise is this
<blockquote><b>Can speciation alone (microevolution) result in novel phylogenetic change (macroevolution)? confused</b></blockquote>
Or as Student of Allah stated
<blockquote><b>"macro" is like a sum of the "micro"s.</b></blockquote>
I say yes in select cases where ecological effects may in fact work harmoniously with favorable (and fortuitous) morphological changes which luckily occurred as needed in a changing environment, and were selected upon. These abilities, inherent within phyla, enhance survival and minimize extinctions. But I view this very adaptive ability itself as a 'designed-in' function.But there have been instances of what I term as 'radical speciation', where the complexity of requisite alterations needed far exceeded the ability to progress via random mutations. Not only would the series of changes need occur with no 'look-ahead' abilitiy to forsee a future requirement, but the <i>extended</i> series of changes (the intermediates) would
? have no immediate selective advantage,
? generally be deleterious to extant function(s),
? and fail due to needed co-dependencies not yet in place.To summarize Adaptive mutations occur, that I feel are the result of 'designed'in' variances, available within the genome <i>by design</i>, to aid in survival. Theses in no way are the means to 'radical speciation' alterations like bird flight, whale evolution including echolocation, and giraffe necks to name only three.
Evolution occurs naturally, but guided alterations have occurred along the way.
-
Evolution occurs naturally, but guided alterations have occurred along the way.
- And the factors which influence those alterations are natural as well.
- And the alterations are being performed by the being itself as those being which cannot alter / change properly shall go down the path of extinction.. this is called 'natural selection'..
The whole procession is called evolution..
I don't see any contradictory between evolution with 'intelligent design'..
The whole idea of 'intelligent design' is put forward due to the enforcement of the "Anthropomorphism / Personal God" view. Where God is being viewed as "Human" and he's 'outside of this universe'. Which is common in the western world (middle east included) until today.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnthropomorphicWhen one see God as a 'force' / 'all within God' point of view there shall be no need of 'intelligent design' as the whole element within the universe performed in harmony / balance through evolutionary changes. Creation (and destruction) never stop. Or to again switch the mode to "Personal God point of view" we can say "God never stop working".
This view is common in the eastern world...http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
Salam / Peace
-
And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience. -
And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience.Shalom Aleikhem,
I kinda don't believe in a soul the way most do. I think of the soul to be a property of the brain, not separate.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience.Salam
you are probably referring to "spirit" correct? the spirit is not the soul. Adam was the only one gifted with ruh(discerning right from wrong/true from false)
our "soul/self" would be the nafs. which even most basic animals in the animal kingdom possess. Allah tells us it is the nafs which makes us act upon our animal tendencies. and the nafs inclines to evil. thats why we are to "purify the nafs"
and we will all be raised in the flesh. Allah makes this clear that we will be raised. and it is easy for the Creator.
back onto the topic i do believe in a guided form of evolution by Allahs design of course. Now there are many facets of theories. regardless, I did not witness the creation initially. but one thing is certain we are still evolving. scientific examination has found that over 5000 years from old skeletons to now that the human brain is SHRINKING. it is evolving. shrinking not as in unintelligent. but the brain/skull is shrinking. which they believe is due to the less usage of certain portions of the brain due to industrialization..
-
back onto the topic i do believe in a guided form of evolution by Allahs design of course. Now there are many facets of theories. regardless, I did not witness the creation initially. but one thing is certain we are still evolving. scientific examination has found that over 5000 years from old skeletons to now that the human brain is SHRINKING. it is evolving. shrinking not as in unintelligent. but the brain/skull is shrinking. which they believe is due to the less usage of certain portions of the brain due to industrialization..
But you do witness the creation everyday.. even as we speak..
Or to put it in another sentence.. you do witness 'God's work' everyday..The whole idea of 'intelligent design' theory and 'resistance' to the "Evolution theory" is due to the fact that human (especially in the west) views God as another human..
He talk, He's angry, He's sad, He need rest etc..
His home or address is on the 'outside' of this universe..
Much worse they used to see God as a "Deity in the sky" looking down below on earth..Once you understand that the true Supreme Force of All Universes is here, there, everywhere and beyond you'll start to find the absurdity of 'Intelligent Design'... and you'll start to recognize that the word "Nature" / "Natural" and God is nearly synonymous... The "Law of God" is the "Law of Nature", unbreakable by anything...
Thus God (or nature) hasn't finished His (or It) works yet... on this universe... He (or It) still shaping Homo Sapiens and other beings and also other materials to become something new... until He (or It) destroy this universe with it's billion of galaxies....
The kingdom of God come not with observation
Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold! the kingdom of God is within you!.
-- Iashua Ha Nozirith (Luke 1720-21)Salam / Peace
-
But you do witness the creation everyday.. even as we speak..
Or to put it in another sentence.. you do witness 'God's work' everyday..The whole idea of 'intelligent design' theory and 'resistance' to the "Evolution theory" is due to the fact that human (especially in the west) views God as another human..
He talk, He's angry, He's sad, He need rest etc..
His home or address is on the 'outside' of this universe..
Much worse they used to see God as a "Deity in the sky" looking down below on earth..Once you understand that the true Supreme Force of All Universes is here, there, everywhere and beyond you'll start to find the absurdity of 'Intelligent Design'... and you'll start to recognize that the word "Nature" / "Natural" and God is nearly synonymous... The "Law of God" is the "Law of Nature", unbreakable by anything...
Thus God (or nature) hasn't finished His (or It) works yet... on this universe... He (or It) still shaping Homo Sapiens and other beings and also other materials to become something new... until He (or It) destroy this universe with it's billion of galaxies....
The kingdom of God come not with observation
Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold! the kingdom of God is within you!.
-- Iashua Ha Nozirith (Luke 1720-21)Salam / Peace
Allah is beyond a created beings comprehension. and please refrain from turning islam to druidism. Do not say of Allah what you have no knowledge. Allah is not nature, he created it, he is not the universe he created it. and all things in this universe including EARTH obey his LAWS. Allah is far beyond anything. and yes INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Allah is the KNOWING, he has all knowledge. Allah is supremely knowledageable therefore the supreme intelligence.
he governs everything and encompasses all.
but I for one do not jump on this band wagon of ascribing things to Allah. Pagans made the mistake of worshipping stars as God. some nature, etc. And Now everyone likes to say Allah is dark matter, Allah is energy.
Allah created all these things. he sent down no word of what his true being is. and he assured the humanity that he is beyond the perception of a created thing. NOTHING is like unto him. that is the fundamental concept of Tawheed. so be careful before calling Allah nature.
salam
-
I have seen that many times you have rejected these thoughts without consideration. I think really, it is the "isms" that scare you most, and prevent you from considering this idea. Since it seems that you are interested neither in philosophy nor in the phenomenons of quantum physics, I will only quote some verses from the Qu'ran to support this view, take off the veil of religion from your mind, and read the following
Say He is Allah, the One and Only (Ahadun) 1141
He is the First (Al-Awwalu) and the Last (Al-Aakhiru), and the Apparent (Al-Zhiru) and the Hidden (Al-Btinu), and He has knowledge of everything. 573
And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you turn, there is the (Wajh-ullah). Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. 2115
And He is Allah in the heavens and the earth. He knows your deeds ? both secret and open ? and knows fully whatever good or evil you do. 63
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly star lit from a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things. 2435
-
I have seen that many times you have rejected these thoughts without consideration. I think really, it is the "isms" that scare you most, and prevent you from considering this idea. Since it seems that you are interested neither in philosophy nor in the phenomenons of quantum physics, I will only quote some verses from the Qu'ran to support this view, take off the veil of religion from your mind, and read the following
this has nothing to do with religion. no where is Islam a religion. nor did I make the assertion. again the verses does not say Allah is everything. he encompasses everything however. He is everywhere but he is not everything. he created everything. and when the Universe is rolled up on he will endure and remain.
your spreading conjecture of which you have no authority. your claiming im rejecting something but you are ascribing something you dont know. your calling the earth Allah...Allah created the earth and it obeys his laws he places in the heavens. Allah is above and beyond what any one compares him to.
subhanallah at the verses you posted. but Allah is not the creation. after the creation has perished only Allah will remain. the cause to the effect. Allah is the cause. the universe and creation is the affect. PEACE
-
Peace,
You say subhanallah to the verses, great but that is a dismissive tactic. To me it sounds like saying "whoop dee do God said that, now let me tell you what the Real Truth? is". Forgive me if I am wrong, I see this happen a lot. What you said after is correct yet it doesn't affect the subject matter.What is your actual logical response/understanding of 2435? This is split into two parts literal (Allah IS the light of the heavens and earth) then an example/allegory (the light is like such and such).
Nobody needs to ascribe anything to God because He tells us his essence in that single verse.
-
your spreading conjecture of which you have no authority. your claiming im rejecting something but you are ascribing something you dont know. your calling the earth Allah...Allah created the earth and it obeys his laws he places in the heavens. Allah is above and beyond what any one compares him to.
Where did I said that ????
It is you who said that...From easterner perspective;
They find it ridiculous those who think "The Supreme Force of All Universes" is a person who talk, who 'mould creation' with His hands.. who is above looking below, who design first before working.. etc...Those who think that "God need time to design first before working/creating" is yet putting another 'human behavior / habits / attributes' to the Supreme Force of All Universes...
gain the verses does not say Allah is everything. he encompasses everything however. He is everywhere but he is not everything. he created everything. and when the Universe is rolled up on he will endure and remain.
I concur to what you said, the true god (whatever name you used to call It or Him) encompasses everything.. he/it's everywhere and He/It is THE EVERYTHING.. and this universe with billions of Galaxies is just perhaps yet another universe from billions of other universes.. And He/It never stop working...
Salam / Peace
-
Where did I said that ????
It is you who said that...From easterner perspective;
They find it ridiculous those who think "The Supreme Force of All Universes" is a person who talk, who 'mould creation' with His hands.. who is above looking below, who design first before working.. etc...Those who think that "God need time to design first before working/creating" is yet putting another 'human behavior / habits / attributes' to the Supreme Force of All Universes...
I concur to what you said, the true god (whatever name you used to call It or Him) encompasses everything.. he/it's everywhere and He/It is THE EVERYTHING.. and this universe with billions of Galaxies is just perhaps yet another universe from billions of other universes.. And He/It never stop working...
Salam / Peace
perhaps you are not understanding me. No where did i say Allah is a man that looks down with hands and legs. that upsurd. Allah is formless. nothing compares to the Creator. Allah surrounds everything be he is not everything. why can you not grasp the gravity of the situation? Allah created everything out of nothing the earth the stars the galaxies that formed from gas and intense heat, all these things matter and anti matter etc are all created properties, everything created will perish..
All the cosmos and many others OBEY Allahs laws that he has place in the universe, gravity, time space etc. all the laws of physics are implemented by the creator.
let me use an example a cheesey one yet it may get the point across. If you have ever watched star wars, "the force" is described much like Allah, a force of intelligence that is everywhere we turn, yet it is unseen, it works through the creation but it is NOT the creation. the force was an immeasurable thing that binded and created all things.
Allah is immeasurable. and everything in creation can be measured, and has divisible quantities. Allah is indivisible. "the one" this is the concept of tawheed.
sadly to many muslims take " i am every where you turn" to literally mean that everything (pantheism) is Allah. in doing so much like suffis and bahais people begin to self glorify and thing THEY are Allah. shirk in the highest degree. there is no comparison to Allah. that goes for all of creation. what does Allah say? when everything is destroyed all that will remain is his face(metaphorical of course) hence quite clear Allah has no begining and no end. he is not the creation but he surrounds and guides and manages it. he works through the creation.
nothing compares to the Lord of the Worlds.
the universe had a begining and it has an end. and the Quran is quite clear that Allah has no begining and no end. so to even associate these things with Allah and say Allah is the universe is a gross assumption.
Salam
-
perhaps you are not understanding me. No where did i say Allah is a man that looks down with hands and legs. that upsurd. Allah is formless. nothing compares to the Creator. Allah surrounds everything be he is not everything. why can you not grasp the gravity of the situation? Allah created everything out of nothing the earth the stars the galaxies that formed from gas and intense heat, all these things matter and anti matter etc are all created properties, everything created will perish..
All the cosmos and many others OBEY Allahs laws that he has place in the universe, gravity, time space etc. all the laws of physics are implemented by the creator.
let me use an example a cheesey one yet it may get the point across. If you have ever watched star wars, "the force" is described much like Allah, a force of intelligence that is everywhere we turn, yet it is unseen, it works through the creation but it is NOT the creation. the force was an immeasurable thing that binded and created all things.
Allah is immeasurable. and everything in creation can be measured, and has divisible quantities. Allah is indivisible. "the one" this is the concept of tawheed.
sadly to many muslims take " i am every where you turn" to literally mean that everything (pantheism) is Allah. in doing so much like suffis and bahais people begin to self glorify and thing THEY are Allah. shirk in the highest degree. there is no comparison to Allah. that goes for all of creation. what does Allah say? when everything is destroyed all that will remain is his face(metaphorical of course) hence quite clear Allah has no begining and no end. he is not the creation but he surrounds and guides and manages it. he works through the creation.
nothing compares to the Lord of the Worlds.
the universe had a begining and it has an end. and the Quran is quite clear that Allah has no begining and no end. so to even associate these things with Allah and say Allah is the universe is a gross assumption.
Salam
Words has semantic problems... let's do this using math notations...
I hope your math is quite good..Let
God =Which give us
1 not equal to
2 not equal to
5 not equal to
100 not equal to
0 not equal to
100 <
200 <= 1 X
/ = 1
A set of { 0 .. 1000000000000000000000000000000 } is within { 0 .. }
1000000000000000000000000000000 <http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity
Salam / Peace