Quranists and testing for clandestine agendas?
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I have often wondered if some amongst the "Quranist" community have clandestine/hidden agendas. This could also include authors of works from any sect.
So, I was wondering, is there a way to test this? A way to ensure others or one does not have a hidden agenda, even hidden to oneself?
Are there signs that suggest no agenda / agenda etc? If so, what would they be?
There may even be articles on this online, I haven't checked. I primarily ask, because Quran says there are those who think they believe, or think they are doing good etc when they are not. So, it would be prudent to avoid such a pitfall.
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One way is to put it out there in the public sphere and examine the comments from different sides seriously; to re-evaluate/re-examine oneself during as well. It's a process of routine checks I would think. As for others, guess it would be to see how they explain and/or take criticism and whether those are logical enough to exclude enough bias to be mostly agenda free. Usually agendas comprise of a very rigid pov etc that doesn't change even if there are glaring contradictions. All I can think of right now.
peace
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I have often wondered if some amongst the "Quranist" community have clandestine/hidden agendas. This could also include authors of works from any sect.
So, I was wondering, is there a way to test this? A way to ensure others or one does not have a hidden agenda, even hidden to oneself?
Are there signs that suggest no agenda / agenda etc? If so, what would they be?
There may even be articles on this online, I haven't checked. I primarily ask, because Quran says there are those who think they believe, or think they are doing good etc when they are not. So, it would be prudent to avoid such a pitfall.
Because the Quranist persuasion is still relatively knew and unknown, its easy for someone to claim he is the leader of this new movement. The internet has made this now very difficult as more and more people begin to join the persuasion. Often these individuals will author books and rarely mention other Quranist opinions. This usually happens in the begining when people are not aware of the movement and its views.
Quranist are still fragmented and work as individuals rather than as a group. This will not last long however. The problem this causes is that other people might hear this person's views and think all Quranist share that opinion. They may not be aware the diversity that exists. I have seen this with Rashad Khalifa and also Ahmed Subhi Mansour and to a lesser degree Ahmed Rifai'. They never show the diversity of opinions and only promote their own. But this is only in the short term. We have no literature as yet that outlines the various Quranist views on a range of topics.
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I have often wondered if some amongst the "Quranist" community have clandestine/hidden agendas. This could also include authors of works from any sect.
Based on my experiences with Homo Sapiens.. I'm certain of it...
Everyone has their own (hidden or shown) agendas.. it's unavoidable...So, I was wondering, is there a way to test this? A way to ensure others or one does not have a hidden agenda, even hidden to oneself?
"if you want to test a man's true character, give him power."
-- Abe LincolnAre there signs that suggest no agenda / agenda etc? If so, what would they be?
There may even be articles on this online, I haven't checked. I primarily ask, because Quran says there are those who think they believe, or think they are doing good etc when they are not. So, it would be prudent to avoid such a pitfall.Spending effort to understand one's 'hidden agenda' is a waste of effort and creates distrust and suspicion...
On the back of my head I think there's something similar to
"Heed the advise from those who doesn't have any vested interest "
In the Quran, I forgot the verse..Salam / Peace
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Usually agendas comprise of a very rigid pov etc that doesn't change even if there are glaring contradictions.
All I can think of right now.True.. One of the indicator.. the POV is being proposed not to be 'tested' and the intention is not to 'seek truth'..
The author of the POV shall be easily angered when there's one who doesn't accept his/her POV and started 'name calling'.. -
salaam/peace all,
Thanks for the replies.
I think there could be many "Quranist" agendas, e.g. to gain fame/fortune/popularity/praise, establish one's view, malign certain groups, to unburden themselves of having to follow strict Quranic guidance, integrate or make it more accepting to Western society etc.
In terms of testing this, I think there are a few tell tale signs, e.g....
they do not do what they say i.e. hypocrite, contradictory positions.
when emotionally rattled, or things get tough, or they have to put in significant effort, or use their own money/wealth - their true self comes out
they are not clear/open/honest in the information they present
they will regularly evade/obfuscate, commit logical fallacies in argument - in an effort to avoid being exposed/refuted
say one thing in public and another in private
etc.
"if you want to test a man's true character, give him power."
-- Abe LincolnI like this saying. It reminds me of this post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8609.msg26554#msg26554
When someone is in a position of power, to do with you as they please, then it is indeed a test of character if they remain true/just/righteous/etc when dealing with you, even if against their own kin etc, as per Quran, e.g. 4135.
Something to think about.
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they will regularly evade/obfuscate, commit logical fallacies in argument - in an effort to avoid being exposed/refuted
And in the end resorted to name calling (their favorite deity; Mr. Satan is often being mentioned).. and if that also doesn't work they resorted to violence...
When someone is in a position of power, to do with you as they please, then it is indeed a test of character if they remain true/just/righteous/etc when dealing with you, even if against their own kin etc, as per Quran, e.g. 4135.
Something to think about.Any additional power and knowledge we got from God is a test of our wisdom to apply it...
God's revelation doesn't stop with Quran.. it continues today and it shall continues up to the future..Salam / Peace
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peace,
of course there would be people with hidden agenda's though it would be difficult to accurately test what it may be.
personal deficiencies can cause people to regularly evade arguments, and commit logically fallacies etc. that might not indicate their lack of sincerity also one doesn't know what their devotion is to... To God?how? To being better/good? To understanding Quran? all of the above? something else?
no one knows the hearts of the people, we can be wishful and trust and hope for the best while making judgement?
you mention people who think they are doing good but aren't really. it's interesting because traditionalists fall back on intentions and also the fact that common people are not learned and are required to research what scholars have found and make a judgement based on that.
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Peace all.
As far as " Hidden agenda" goes , it will remain hidden, until the person hiding it slips up or GOD wishes to show it.
Then again are all "Hidden Agenda" bad ? There may be some good "Hidden Agenda".
If one trusts in GOD and remembers that he/she is going to meet HIM for accountability, he/she will hide less and show more. Also the Lord may protect them from bad " Hidden Agenda".
Peace.
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True.. One of the indicator.. the POV is being proposed not to be 'tested' and the intention is not to 'seek truth'..
The author of the POV shall be easily angered when there's one who doesn't accept his/her POV and started 'name calling'..One of the ways, agreed.
personal deficiencies can cause people to regularly evade arguments, and commit logically fallacies etc. that might not indicate their lack of sincerity also one doesn't know what their devotion is to... To God?how? To being better/good? To understanding Quran? all of the above? something else?
Wouldn't that be an indicator of their lack of sincerity striving for the truth/knowledge? At the end of the day, regardless of how we understand the quran or God...personal deficiencies that cause us to falter and/or hinder the path of truth or knowledge for ourselves or others for example would be bad all around. Some might even call such a self serving agenda e.g. in which we might have someone refusing to acknowledge an evident truth for the sake of pride etcOur shortcomings and our desire to do good/faith/belief and so on are interconnected in a way that improving the former would raise the dividends on the latter. The results would be stunted otherwise.
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salaam/peace all,
Thanks for the replies.
I think there could be many "Quranist" agendas, e.g. to gain fame/fortune/popularity/praise, establish one's view, malign certain groups, to unburden themselves of having to follow strict Quranic guidance, integrate or make it more accepting to Western society etc.
In terms of testing this, I think there are a few tell tale signs, e.g....
they do not do what they say i.e. hypocrite, contradictory positions.
when emotionally rattled, or things get tough, or they have to put in significant effort, or use their own money/wealth - their true self comes out
they are not clear/open/honest in the information they present
they will regularly evade/obfuscate, commit logical fallacies in argument - in an effort to avoid being exposed/refuted
say one thing in public and another in private
etc.
I like this saying. It reminds me of this post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8609.msg26554#msg26554
When someone is in a position of power, to do with you as they please, then it is indeed a test of character if they remain true/just/righteous/etc when dealing with you, even if against their own kin etc, as per Quran, e.g. 4135.
Something to think about.
But the opposite can also be true in the sense that some Quranist evade or spin some verses of the Quran to promore a conservative Sunni/Shia like point of view. I do not see this as a problem since these verses tend to be the more ambigous verses. Those who try to promote a secular Wetsern like system may just be liberals that some may equate as being Western. However conservatism is also a Western philosophy as history shows but in recent times it has grown weaker.
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peace,
of course there would be people with hidden agenda's though it would be difficult to accurately test what it may be.
personal deficiencies can cause people to regularly evade arguments, and commit logically fallacies etc. that might not indicate their lack of sincerity also one doesn't know what their devotion is to... To God?how? To being better/good? To understanding Quran? all of the above? something else?
no one knows the hearts of the people, we can be wishful and trust and hope for the best while making judgement?
you mention people who think they are doing good but aren't really. it's interesting because traditionalists fall back on intentions and also the fact that common people are not learned and are required to research what scholars have found and make a judgement based on that.
Good point
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Those who try to promote a secular Wetsern like system may just be liberals that some may equate as being Western. However conservatism is also a Western philosophy as history shows but in recent times it has grown weaker.
Why only west? Where's the east?
Actually "Secularism" originated from 'the east'... although they're not naming as such.. but they just 'living it'...The western world (middle east included) adopt it later on.. throwing away their "sectarianism" ( and not "conservatism" ) which cause them a lot of problems (war, conflicts etc..). And for this 'new phenomenon' for them (where there's no 'official cult/sect/religion' endorsed by the authority) they invented a new name.. secularism..
Among the 'secular big kingdom' that's being recorded in history was the kingdom of Cyrus.. or in the Quran he's mentioned by one of his mythological nickname.. "Dzul Qarnayn"..
Salam / Peace
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True. Another possibility is that the person is simply ignorant/illogical as is, without an agenda.
Good point. The problem with internet communication is that you don't really get to know the person you are communicating with properly. He or she could be somebody with psychological disorders or even mentally deficient.
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I forgot to point out the fatal flaw of some/many "Quranists", which coincidentally is also the fatal flaw of "Traditionalists" in my view, and that is their method of studying Quran is inconsistent.
What I mean by this is that Traditionalists generally do not apply a systematic/robust/falsifiable method consistently when attempting to extract the most accurate answer from Quran (i.e. they pick and choose what suits), and likewise, this is the same for some/many "Quranists".
Ironically, the latter criticise the former then often do the same themselves. And the former criticise the latter claiming they translate according to their whims and are doing this themselves. Double-standard, hypocrisy etc.
Unfortunately this is quite common.
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It is better if we focus less on others and more on ourselves. It is better if we strive to improve ourselves and aim to find Source (Allah, God...) with ourselves, and free ourselves from the slavery of the mind (which should just be a tool, not the master). We should not judge others, because it will never ever be fair. Let everyone have their agendas. All we can do is to encourage manners and honest and logic ways of thinking. We will never be able to say anything about people's agendas. Why bother anyway?
Peace
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peace Zulf,
We should not judge others, because it will never ever be fair. Let everyone have their agendas. All we can do is to encourage manners and honest and logic ways of thinking. We will never be able to say anything about people's agendas. Why bother anyway?
Are you implying Quran does not say anything on these issues?
If you admit it does say things on these issues, then it has been put in Quran for a reason, and that reason is most likely to help us in some way. Hence taking an interest in such issues, discussion etc.And I will tell you the reason on "why bother" and that is to better arm ourselves so we are less likely to be misled, make better decisions etc. A related example in real life members of parliament/government often say one thing but their voting record implies another; and it is by taking an interest in such traits that we can better identify such people, better inform ourselves, make better decisions etc........ or would you also claim for this "why bother?".
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peace Zulf,
Are you implying Quran does not say anything on these issues?
If you admit it does say things on these issues, then it has been put in Quran for a reason, and that reason is most likely to help us in some way. Hence taking an interest in such issues, discussion etc.And I will tell you the reason on "why bother" and that is to better arm ourselves so we are less likely to be misled, make better decisions etc. A related example in real life members of parliament/government often say one thing but their voting record implies another; and it is by taking an interest in such traits that we can better identify such people, better inform ourselves, make better decisions etc........ or would you also claim for this "why bother?".
- Nope, not implying that.
- I agree to the rest of your response.
As long as we develop ourselves in thinking skills (opposite of remaining a sheep) it is very good, and naturally we need to learn from the past and from examples in our surrounding.
Basically I was hinting at the impossibility to know someone else's mind... heck, people even don't know their own minds... which means we should not judge others (simply since we don't know it all).
So, the "why bother" was meant as "let's not get into futile efforts" of labeling people. My angle was a bit different, but maybe it is slightly more clear now. I also mean that, at the same time we should not bother about people's inner agenda or reasons, since we will not know them enough... we should definitely encourage good and consistent behavior and intentions, and learn to expose bad ans misaligned actions and propaganda... Let's focus on the output of people, not the people themselves. Perhaps the difference is hard to see, or it can even be argued that there is no difference. The output will speak for itself, especially in a context and viewed in the light of past things put out.
My apprehension is that we should not classify people as having hidden agendas. The point is to not put a label on someone. Because then it often happens that the label determines how we receive what that person produces next time, no matter how sinister or truthful it is may be. We should instead evaluate all that is put out by someone.. in a context. Yes, we should be vigilant, coz there is much sheep-in-wolf-dress sort of "information" put out there, with slanderous aims...
I'm afraid my previous post was not very clear.... anyhow... maybe this one was more clear....
No worries, I got your point, and I agree. Did you get mine?Peace Wakas and all
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peace Zulf,
Are you implying Quran does not say anything on these issues?
If you admit it does say things on these issues, then it has been put in Quran for a reason, and that reason is most likely to help us in some way. Hence taking an interest in such issues, discussion etc.And I will tell you the reason on "why bother" and that is to better arm ourselves so we are less likely to be misled, make better decisions etc. A related example in real life members of parliament/government often say one thing but their voting record implies another; and it is by taking an interest in such traits that we can better identify such people, better inform ourselves, make better decisions etc........ or would you also claim for this "why bother?".
You wake up, eat breakfast, get dressed, head out to work. It's a chilly day but what's more striking is that it's incredibly foggy, foggy beyond comprehension. You can barely see the outline of your own hand in front of you. You see a bunch of people driving their cars around. How irresponsible these guys are, you think to yourself. Driving around in such intense fog, how would they even know where the hell they're going? They could cause an accident. I should call the police, sheesh. You get to work and look in the mirror. Oh. Forgot to wipe my glasses.
