God's Care
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Why is it that so many people talk about God being merciful, omnipotent and all that other crap but won't even allow righteous believers in him to have bearable lives? Why does he cause so many of them the kind of misery that makes them even go kill themselves to end their sadness, when they have the means to do it? This is also not some temporary hard time; it's more like a chronic depression, caused by none other than God's lack of care to make one's life even somewhat bearable.
Believing in such a god at this point defies all logic, plain and simple.
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We humans have chosen the freedom of choice. We make our own decision, Some make decisions that affects others. We cannot blame GOD! GOD is never unjust. This is what HIS scripture says
2362 ? We never burden anyone beyond their means, and We record the truth ( about each individual). No one will suffer injustice.?
( Does everyone know this? Should they?)
2363 ? Because their minds are oblivious to this, they commit works that do not conform with justice; Their works are evil.?
2364 ? Then when disaster stikes them, they complain.?
2364 ? Do not complain now; ( you decided to go it alone, without GOD) You have given up all help from us now.?
Blaming GOD is unfair when the cause of suffering are the humans themselves.
Peace. -
Good logic, good logic! http//www.city-data.com/forum/members/bs13690-83559-albums-animated-gifs-pic43268-smiley-rimshot.gif
Funny you say that, I used to feel sad that God is "silent". At some point I stopped questioning and just cultivated inner peace through things like meditation. I find that the more of God's commands you follow the easier and easier your life gets. It seems counter-intuitive at first. For example God says that true believers do not give their love to his and their enemies (601,2).
What transpired for me is that I had to realise how many of my 'friends' were actually not friends, by any means. And you can laugh and joke with these guys all day long and they seem normal on the outside but the rift in allegiance between God/satan alone is what truly nullifies those friendships. After a fair amount of pain and stress came the realisation that God's commands are always correct, no ifs, no buts. Nobody is a special case because X or Y.
Most things in life (wealth, partners, friends, foods, entertainment etc) are all illusory. They are only truly good and useful when they directly help you to serve God themselves. If you fail to grasp the illusory nature of all of these things, you are bound to have a miserable life. I felt the same kind of depression you did. After letting go of the illusions I feel so at peace, you would not believe. Life feels like a serene yet ecstatic warm steam bath. Believing in God because He makes life feel good or bad is not logical. Believe in God because God is the surest reality and then work from there, you will have a far easier time. Pain is temporary, glory is eternal.
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@IAMOP and good logic
So agree with you guys! I felt worse than depression. Threw the Koran in the garbage can literally speaking and in my emotional distress was going to end it all. I felt betrayed by God. And I turned away from God. Needless to say something happened. A total stranger saw me and stopped me from ending my life. I thought 'oh great, God just wants me to suffer more". It turned out to be a defining point in my life.
I came to realization that it was not God who betrayed me. I made choices, decisions, judgments in my professional and personal life that lead to so much pain. It was not God but people who I trusted that betrayed me. Bear in mind that satan is also listening to your prayers as you ask God's help in making decisions. My thoughts betrayed me. I realized how satan was affecting me through people, messing with my mind/thoughts, causing so much confusion, distress - it was an awful feeling. Out of darkness, I reached out to God. Like IAMOP, I feel a sense of peace - hard to describe feeling.
Carlee, I know where you are as I have been there myself before. I feel like I have broken free and through to the 'other' side where it is so serene. Time to time, yes I do feel tired, lonely but not plagued like before.
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With regards to people suffering because of others, even though those bad people are the cause (who, were created by "God" in the first place), why does "God" just let saddening shit happen (things undeserved and not caused by the sufferer) if people claim he has more than enough power to prevent it? I always hear believers tell a smart person "it was God's idea, not yours that helped create that invention". Using the same logic (which would make sense to a degree if God existed) there's no reason or incentive for a person living an unbearable life for his/her lifetime to even consider "God" a friend, and makes no sense to believe in it if it claims to be something remotely close to merciful.
And what do you consider someone born with a bilateral cleft? Of course, blame the people who crea - oh wait.
God wouldn't be the surest reality for the same reason mentioned in the opening post, and one can ask me all day how then is the world around you created. There's a far better explanation than there being an "omnipotent, merciful and all-knowing god" being the reason, I can already guarantee.
justamuslim, it looks like you're saying the reason for your misfortunes is due to mostly you or you in general. I'm not talking of a case like this.
Some stuff are not caused by people at all, like certain birth defects not due to human behaviors like drinking or smoking, like the above mentioned defect, is known to happen randomly. Problem with things like this is it almost always causes a person to be miserable during their lifetime, however the point remains. If a person tries all that "God" suggests to attain happiness, though are still miserable to the point they can't stand their lives anymore, how can "God" exist? Better yet, what incentive would the person have to live eternally afterward with, or near the same thing that let their lives on Earth be Hell? Don't even attempt to rebut this with a "well, Quran promises it so you're just doing something wrong". Read even non-sectarian qurans (including the one here) several times. Followed it faithfully. Still get shit and here's the real problem it's all about how it affects you, and that's uncontrollable. Someone's life can seem like a heaven to someone else, though is the complete opposite to who has it, and it has nothing to do with "how thankful they are; how patient they are; how righteous they are; etc.".
You think someone with a chronic depression, a depression that's perpetual beginning from more than a decade ago, and on a med. can see any incentive to believe in a god with those traits, and wish to be with it after their life is over? How can that god bring such a person to life? Wouldn't there be more good and less suffering on this planet if that person wasn't given birth?
The all-sect belief of someone killing themselves for this going to hell pushes it more, and raises more red flags about some alleged justice and mercy.
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Peace Carlee.
We humans want it both ways, if things are fine we ignore GOD, and when things go badly wrong we blame GOD.
GOD has given humans a life span on earth, only known by HIM.HE has His reasons on how long the individual lives.
God has also given the humans the freedom of choice. Each individual has free will. We make our own decision. However some of us play tyrants and abuse their power and mess up. God is keeping HIS part of the bargain , He is not stopping people making a decision, even if they make bad decision, but GOD is just this is what HE says
2362 ? We never burden anyone beyond their means, and We record the truth ( about each individual). No one will suffer injustice.?
( Does everyone know this? Should they?)
2363 ? Because their minds are oblivious to this, they commit works that do not conform with justice; Their works are evil.?
2364 ? Then when disaster stikes them, they complain.?
2364 ? Do not complain now; ( you decided to go it alone, you do not need GOD) You have given up all help from us now.?
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Salaam,
These aayaats may help in understanding the truth inshaAllah.
4147
4147 What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing.3139
3139 So do not weaken and do not grieve, and you will be superior if you are believers.682
682 They who believe and do not mix their belief with injustice - those will have security, and they are guided.3118
3119
31203118 O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you have brains.
3119 Here you are loving them but they are not loving you, while you believe in the Scripture - all of it. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe." But when they are alone, they bite their fingertips at you in rage. Say, "Die in your rage. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts."
3120 If good holds you, it distresses them; but if harm reaches you, they rejoice at it. And if you are patient and fear Allah , their plot will not harm you at all. Indeed, Allah is encompassing of what they do.1044
1044 Indeed, Allah does not wrong the people at all, but it is the people who are wronging themselves.Hope this may help inshaAllah.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam Carly this is something I often grapple with. I can understand that God has given humans free choice and as a result some choose to follow Satan and harm themselves and harm others, but it seems to me that many humans are ignorant and do not even have enough knowledge and understanding to avoid doing this - for example those who work in chemical factories, the plastic industry, mining industry, food additives industry etc may not see themselves as following Satan, but the chemical byproducts they are producing eventually find there way into our ecosystem and have been shown to be endocrine disruptors, causing mood changes, birth defects and lots of other damage to God's creation.
In addition, as you mention, there are innocent children who are born into, or live in a hell beyond description, yes often as a result of the sins of others but yes what is just and fair about the sins of others being visited on them in the interests of "everyone's" free choice, which in reality means that they in fact don't have free choice if the harm done to them results in brain damage, emotional dysfunction etc. and its well documented that most criminal offending can be linked to childhood deprivation and abuse, so it can all become a vicious cycle.
And for those who committ suicide (apart from those who believe they are martyrs) , it does sometimes seem that God has given them more than their souls can bear. When witnessing the suffering of children, and the damaged adults that are often the result, I used to think it would have been better for God to have created a world of robots with no free choice, as robots would not feel such pain. The only way I came to accept all this is to believe that the degree of pleasure we have in the hereafter will be directly related to the degree of suffering we have on earth. As God tells us in Quran, any sins committed and any righteous acts we do will be justly accounted for, which includes those sins committed as a result of suffering. Also if we don't know pain can we know what is pleasure - they soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears. group
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And for those who committ suicide (apart from those who believe they are martyrs) , it does sometimes seem that God has given them more than their souls can bear.
Salaam
I disagree.
Please look at my post above and what Good Logic wrote that is against of what you said above. Please be careful while saying anything on Allah and take a look at the following
16116
16116 And do not say about what your tongues assert of untruth, "This is lawful and this is unlawful," to invent falsehood about Allah. Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed.May Allah protect us all and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam
I disagree.
Please look at my post above and what Good Logic wrote that is against of what you said above. Please be careful while saying anything on Allah and take a look at the following
16116
16116 And do not say about what your tongues assert of untruth, "This is lawful and this is unlawful," to invent falsehood about Allah. Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed.May Allah protect us all and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanSalaam and thanks for your post. I did use the words " sometimes seems to me" (during times when I feel doubtful about my faith) but mostly I try to focus on the righteous actions I can do to help others who are suffering.
Just to clarify, how do you see the situation when someone is in so much pysychological or physical pain they reach the end of their limits and they kill themselves? Are you saying that the pain they are feeling is God's punishment on them? If they were righteous believers they would not ever be in that position ? Or that they could tolerate more pain and gave up too soon?
Lena
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Just to clarify, how do you see the situation when someone is in so much pysychological or physical pain they reach the end of their limits and they kill themselves? Are you saying that the pain they are feeling is God's punishment on them? If they were righteous believers they would not ever be in that position ? Or that they could tolerate more pain and gave up too soon?
Lena
If they were correct in their understanding of the truth then the pain would be of little importance. They lose hope because a certain belief they hold somewhere is actually a delusion. When one loses these delusions everything becomes fine once more.
http//journaleast.com/wp-content/uploads/Burning-Monk-Photo.jpg
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^Obviously does not know what real pain is. Mental/psychological will always be greater than physical in the end. Why the heck do you think some clinically depressed people end their lives? Because they believe what they'll physically go through doesn't amount to the mental aspect. Heck, someone could possibly be laughing while dying if they're crazy enough.
Had you a clue you wouldn't hold the position you currently have.
Peace Carlee.
We humans want it both ways, if things are fine we ignore GOD, and when things go badly wrong we blame GOD.
GOD has given humans a life span on earth, only known by HIM.HE has His reasons on how long the individual lives.
God has also given the humans the freedom of choice. Each individual has free will. We make our own decision. However some of us play tyrants and abuse their power and mess up. God is keeping HIS part of the bargain , He is not stopping people making a decision, even if they make bad decision, but GOD is just this is what HE says
2362 ? We never burden anyone beyond their means, and We record the truth ( about each individual). No one will suffer injustice.?
( Does everyone know this? Should they?)
2363 ? Because their minds are oblivious to this, they commit works that do not conform with justice; Their works are evil.?
2364 ? Then when disaster stikes them, they complain.?
2364 ? Do not complain now; ( you decided to go it alone, you do not need GOD) You have given up all help from us now.?
Nothing I spoke about regarded free choice and you re-pasted the same verses.
Salaam,
These aayaats may help in understanding the truth inshaAllah.
4147
4147 What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing.3139
3139 So do not weaken and do not grieve, and you will be superior if you are believers.682
682 They who believe and do not mix their belief with injustice - those will have security, and they are guided.3118
3119
31203118 O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you have brains.
3119 Here you are loving them but they are not loving you, while you believe in the Scripture - all of it. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe." But when they are alone, they bite their fingertips at you in rage. Say, "Die in your rage. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts."
3120 If good holds you, it distresses them; but if harm reaches you, they rejoice at it. And if you are patient and fear Allah , their plot will not harm you at all. Indeed, Allah is encompassing of what they do.1044
1044 Indeed, Allah does not wrong the people at all, but it is the people who are wronging themselves.Hope this may help inshaAllah.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan-
Implying that my belief would have prevented the experienced mental/psychological pain (which is still occurring) when it didn't.
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This has nothing to do with who and who I haven't made friends with.
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Peace Carlee.
You got me wrong as well.
I was talking about those who run the human systems. If there was care, fairness and compassion in a society, they will help each other and care for each other.I also do not pretend to know how they feel or what they are going through, but the Creator does2775 There is nothing in the heavens and the earth that is hidden from GOD; Everything is in a profound record.?
Also may be there is a reward for those who suffer unjustly in this life. HE knows HIS creation every single individual, and
2777 Your Lord is the one who judges among them in accordance with his rules ( and law). HE is the ALMIGHTY, the OMNISCIENT.?
I do not value this life, it is an illusion, what my Lord has is better.
I was trying to say to you and to all those who suffer,that as far as the Creator is concerned, there is hope for them.
May the Lord give us hope and understanding and patience to keep trusting in HIM.
Peace. -
^Obviously does not know what real pain is. Mental/psychological will always be greater than physical in the end. Why the heck do you think some clinically depressed people end their lives? Because they believe what they'll physically go through doesn't amount to the mental aspect. Heck, someone could possibly be laughing while dying if they're crazy enough.
Had you a clue you wouldn't hold the position you currently have.
Such a rash comment! This is the internet, and those who you talk to come from all walks of life. It's easy to dismiss a block of text but everyone has their own life story. For the record I have been clinically depressed myself for the larger part of my life. Yet here I stand with it totally cleared away. Even disregarding this, what I said is factual. If God exists then all pain has its purpose and essentially EVERY reason for suicide is the result of despair of God, hopelessness. Until one sees the wisdom behind the pain one cannot alleviate the pain.
The truth is that as long as you identify with your body you will suffer. Your true being is not touched by pain or pleasure. It is perfectly still and complete in itself. A person who is in tune with this is not really affected by pain. It hurts all the same yet it does not touch the self. The person pictured who immolated himself has grasped this truth. As he burnt away he did not flinch while others would have been screaming in pain. Many people have immolated themselves in this precise fashion each of them calmly burning to ashes.
One of the names of God is the peace/the bestower of peace (as-salam). When you put your trust in God and submit to his will, this peace opens up to you. It is a boundless ocean that most only see the surface of and the surface is chaotically wavey. Nirvana is real and I talk from experience. Don't dismiss things you have no knowledge of. If you don't agree, fine. Just remember everyone has their own story to tell. You are not alone in experiencing pain, there are 7 billion of us alongside you.
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Some stuff are not caused by people at all, like certain birth defects not due to human behaviors like drinking or smoking, like the above mentioned defect, is known to happen randomly
....I think you've forgotten the aim of living in this world..
the aim is not to have fun in this life, though it's a blessing to be able to have them both..
(if you're in with the reincarnation theory, then maybe they did bad in their past lives that warrants them getting this karma?)Think of it as responsibility, the more tools/facilities/goodness the more you're accountable for it's usage..
some people are given less because Allah SWT knows that they are more likely to fail..wallahua3lam
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Hi Carlee, a quick note on what God says in the Qur'an I am still struggling with a lot of God's ways my self...but in the Qur'an as far as I have seen God doesn't deny his involvement in bad things anyways!!...
There is a verse where he says to ask the Christians and Jews, how could they claim themselves as the children/loved ones of God, if he allows suffering to be inflicted on them. And I believe here he is refuting the idea that we are indeed children of God, or that God's love is unconditional.
Also just now I was reading and I remembered your post he says that if God inflicts harm on you only he can lift it.
"And if Allah should touch you with adversity, there is no remover of it except Him; and if He intends for you good, then there is no repeller of His bounty. He causes it to reach whom He wills of His servants. And He is the Forgiving, the Merciful" (10107)
Also there is the concept that not everything that seems bad is actually bad..and vice versa but that's not your point I am sure.
But what I feel is that God, does test our faith, he keeps saying when humans are blissful and enjoying their life they are quick to forget me!..and that is human nature we are ungrateful. I used to feel so bad that God labelled us humans as ungrateful, but I am thinking now maybe it is not a blaming statement, as much as demonstrating how God knows our nature, and that's part of what shows the truth of him being the creator and knowing us better than we know our selves...at least we we look at our selves at fist glance.
I really believe suffering is a way that forces human to reflect on deeper question, I mean if I have no problems in my life I wouldn't be confronted every now and then by big questions and why on earth was I created you know?
All I am saying in the Qur'an God doesn't deny bad things to be related to him, however there is a verse that says that bad things are inflicted by ourselves while Good things are inflicted by him. So...still I am trying to figure out the whole message...
1044
However God here says he is not unjust to people, people are unjust to themselves, it is not as a previous post explained `wrongs us', justice in God's eyes could be severe pain and suffering. So yeah that's the verse I was talking about and I guess I just answered my self . Doing wrong implies that he doesn't do anything hurtfull, that is not what the verse implies as far as I can read.That is just purely my ramblings I am still someone who for the first time trying to read the Qur'an...so I don't know just a thought.
Take care and I hope you are not unhappy at the moment
Sorry that I didn't quote any of the verses, I have a phobia against numbers lol.
Edit I am surprised most of the replies by fellow Muslims here seem to have this tone that God has nothing to do with bad things, which is strange because I am so used to Muslims explaining that God doesn't work that way, people who are happy could be happy for the wrong reasons, and they could be misguided and God leaves them to their pleasures. And that he does test our faith with suffering?
Even some say it is a sign when things are going wrong in your life that maybe God is nudging you.
It is not as simple as it seems I realize but this is how most Muslims I have seen perceive God. At the end of the day God's sole concern is that we worship him according to the Qur'an. So...I don't know, I believe our happiness stands on understanding that is what our purpose. MY OPINION AND PERCEPTIONThe idea that God is blissful all the time is more of a christian thing...well unless you are westboro baptist church
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Oh also I didn't see you opened a discussion about Clinical depression.
Carlee...I am sorry...I am having a lot of trouble understanding psychiatry these days...they have a lot of claims of chemical imbalance being the main reason behind depression but not a single proof, till now and it has been quiet sometime...I graduated pharmacy and we were taught the many hypothesis that surrounds depression being a chemical problem. Not a single proof.
Alzeheimer's has proof, Parkinson's has proof, but not depression and bipolar and schizophrenia there is not a single blood or diagnostic tool other than the objectivity of a human eye, which is what is involved in the idea of God as well...still people don't seem to argue that one much.
I am definitley someone who struggled with depression for the longest time in my life, and suicide was my ultimate solution for...actually I think for the first time this year I have actually started to feel calmer.
I did a lot of research, ultimately the best explanation I found for depression, is perceiving the world as hopeless due a certain circumstance, I know a lot don't like that idea, but it is finally when I realized what is it that I hate about life so much, and feeling so helpless about it is what made me feel well then what is the point.
I really think life these days is overwhelmed with material gains, that emotions have no time to figure or sort themselves out, and we bottle up a lot of frustrations that makes our eyes unable to see anything positive. And medicine has taken an approach of we need to be as 'efficient' as possible, and also an approach of we don't need to fix things at the core level, other wise you lose the business.
Sounds brutal but unfortunately that's humans being concerned they will starve to death if they do otherwise. I mean I even heard doctors giving painkillers to addicts and they know they are abusing it and them saying...'What can I do?' which sounds like huh...
I don't know what I am trying to say, other than that you need to dig deeper and deeper to figure how things are worked out in this world, things are not what they appear at all. Especially when money is involved.
I used to take antidepressants but I couldn't stomach that zombie feeling it felt like if I killed someone it would still be of no matter, which sounds like any mind altering drug, but it just doesn't cause you to crash cars accidentally that is why it is ok by everyone. They do help when the feeling is really intense, but I really believe people who experience that (I could be very wrong) should really do heavy heavy soul searching into why do they think they feel this way. Something as simple as their eating habits, to being abused. But I believe emotions are there to tell us something you know...I mean...even pain indicates there is something going on that needs to be looked at...it is a symptom I guess that's the word I want to use. It is not the problem.
Meh...more ramblings )
Edit And feeling hopeless is not something that is foreign in the Qur'an, there is a verse that I remember when I first read it I cried a lot because I really understood what she was saying, where Miriam pleas God to stop the suffering, and wishes she was something forgotten I know that feeling oh so well, and I was so glad that finally I knew that it is not lack of faith and that God doesn't hate me for feeling so depressed that I'd rather disappear.
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten. (1923)
But he -Gabriel -called her from below her, Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream. (1924)
SORRY FOR THE TEXT WALL!
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there are different kinds of suffering. example - if a strong wind suddenly blows knocking me down and i end up breaking a leg - this would be a bad thing which was not self-inflicted by me or by another human being.
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Peace justamuslim.
For every example, there is a counter example
A strong wind could blow you down, then you just get up and walk away, nothing broken.
Or even a hurricane comes all of a sudden and you happen to be safe inside. While it devastated all around you, you stayed safe.
Peace.