The Avoidance of those who Ridicule the faith? Help please :(
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However that cannot be what it means due to how God has stated in that very verse that we may return once they change topics. So it has nothing to do with the company we hang out with otherwise we be told not to be with them whatsoever. But honestly being in the west, I hear sometimes ny friends casuallly saying Christian mockery or God which while this verse isn't talking about those and only the verses of the Quran as I believed, they just briefly make a a mockery and move on. I don't participate on it nor respond, just wait till its over before continuing.
Thus say if it were to make a mockery of the Quran and I avoided by not talking or paying attention till done, I would indeed be damned as a Kaffir!? Even though I believe and don't cover the truth nor say or join the conversing?
That last part seems problemsome. I would understand it simply being a sin but being Kufr seems a bit much and doesn't make much sense either /
No, it can mean company if it doesn't let up. That was the point if one doesn't take it literally (what was said in brackets). It can go deeper than "I mock your god nyah nyah" I'm not listening lalala "Ooh did you hear about Clarice? She's got something going on with Hannibal!" Really? Tell me more! all ears
Personally, I eschew casual 'friendships' and am very selective in my company. If I can't learn/share on equal grounds of respect, logic and understanding...they aren't worth my time. I wouldn't try to cultivate a deeper bond or even continuing a casual one with someone who isn't on the same wavelength; which is not to say that I can't be polite to them and/or take a stand for my beliefs. I wouldn't seek them out or bask in their company.
The verses to me incorporate both facets of such communication, casual and deeper. Being branded a 'kaffir' on the grounds you put forth is doing an injustice to all the other verses of the quran which clearly put forth the requirements of such. Always take the whole picture into account. Like has been mentioned before on the forum, it's not black and white...it's a gradual slip and slide towards the dark side. That is what you need to be aware of and to avoid the many things that will take you there. It is a fact that many people do not cut destructiveness out of their lives or even realise the negative impact of a great many things and they all add up eventually... by which time it's too late and neither do they care much.
It's only difficult because you are seeing it as very staccato like. When you put it all together and realise that being a 'kaffir' is more than just ignoring crap people say around you...and that the verses are dealing with the attitude and mindset we should have...it makes way more sense.
This is great advice. I am in a boat like Lena's. I work with ppl who are so used to joking about their own faith, that they just find it normal to joke with any faith. Example. My mother sends me jokes about God or Jesus, that get sent to her from friends. My family is Catholic and I was raised in a moderately strict christian home. But she does not see these jokes as harmful. Sometimes I don't even think they are aware. This is what happens when you make God.. MAN. Anyway. I can understand how you feel.
I'm not sure if I mentioned feeling a certain way but I usually never click on joke emails...they're almost always lame and I feel guilty for not lmao'ing with wild abandon I agree with you though, we are just blind to certain harmful behaviour that we take as nothing untoward. Takes a lot of re-wiring, strength and openness to change...to actually see and do the needful.
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Eurika!!! I think I finally got the solution and I wish for your opinions too.
So lets revisit that verse again and gonna bold 3 words
"And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God's revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together." (4140)
Rejected AND Ridiculed. That "and " is a very important word as it shows that what must happen is both rejection AND ridicule, not rejection OR ridicule.
I would like to bring you to this horrible site
http//skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/4/index.htm
This is a website that tries to cover the Quran through taking its verses and making them sound bad by saying they are cruel and whatnot. A perfect example of ridicule AND kufr (even though there is no command telling us not to look at such text and only to human to human contact is such a command).
Fact is that the only reason one would be so condemned like that must be cause they are doing the covering of truth and that doesn't come without Ridicule. Ridicule is mocking or bashing and not sinply joking thus why such a word was used. Thus they bash in order to cover the truth. This is further supported by the phrase at the end as it states the hypocrites and kaffirs will go to hell. To become a Kaffir you gotta cover the truth, and that is what this verse is getting at. It doesn't mean simple jokes, or expression of why they believe, but pure covering with ridicule right in your face.
As for being like them... that one I have a guess but not much evidence yet. I think it rather doesn't mean you ARE a Kaffir like 6121 states you are a Mushirk, but states you are simply like them. Thus makes it seem like a big sin but not kufr for just listening as you've done no covering. Not sure why though it would be mentioned that you are like them but for now I conclude here for this till I further understand.
What does everyone think?
Doesn't seem to be an Eureka like solution since you're still not sure what it means
Like I said, there's a difference between what is being talked about in the verses and what you are mixing it up with. Being a 'kaffir' is serious business...not something you do offhand. Or at least until you're the Prince of Darkness.
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No, it can mean company if it doesn't let up. That was the point if one doesn't take it literally (what was said in brackets). It can go deeper than "I mock your god nyah nyah" I'm not listening lalala "Ooh did you hear about Clarice? She's got something going on with Hannibal!" Really? Tell me more! all ears
People aren't THAT much of a jerk as far as i'm aware who will go non-stop at with the Quran bashing, thus why it is expected for you to return to them once they change subjects as it states. As for the second part, that one is backbiting and that is a different case unrelated to Quran bashing which is what we are talking about.
Personally, I eschew casual 'friendships' and am very selective in my company. If I can't learn/share on equal grounds of respect, logic and understanding...they aren't worth my time. I wouldn't try to cultivate a deeper bond or even continuing a casual one with someone who isn't on the same wavelength; which is not to say that I can't be polite to them and/or take a stand for my beliefs. I wouldn't seek them out or bask in their company.
The verses to me incorporate both facets of such communication, casual and deeper. Being branded a 'kaffir' on the grounds you put forth is doing an injustice to all the other verses of the quran which clearly put forth the requirements of such. Always take the whole picture into account. Like has been mentioned before on the forum, it's not black and white...it's a gradual slip and slide towards the dark side. That is what you need to be aware of and to avoid the many things that will take you there. It is a fact that many people do not cut destructiveness out of their lives or even realise the negative impact of a great many things and they all add up eventually... by which time it's too late and neither do they care much.
I'm a guy who has been born and raised in the west and hanging out with people such as these has in no ways shape or form affected my beliefs...in fact i've gotten more religious as time went on, so I really don't buy the idea that it slips me more into "darkness" cause them poking fun and such doesn't have such effects. Course I haven't really met many people who try to take the verses of the Quran and try to cover AND make fun of them, but might poke fun at their own religions like Christianity and such.
It's only difficult because you are seeing it as very staccato like. When you put it all together and realise that being a 'kaffir' is more than just ignoring crap people say around you...and that the verses are dealing with the attitude and mindset we should have...it makes way more sense.
A kaffir is clearly defined as one who covers the truth whether to himself or to others. The person who sits there and doesn't move isn't doing either of those unless he foolishly does start believing them and thus covers the truth for themselves.
Doesn't seem to be an Eureka like solution since you're still not sure what it means P
Like I said, there's a difference between what is being talked about in the verses and what you are mixing it up with. Being a 'kaffir' is serious business...not something you do offhand. Or at least until you're the Prince of Darkness.
No its QUITE the Eureka cause I believe I got the important part down which was what it meant. The only part i'm still unsure of is the end part of "be like them" which is where I say no Eureka to until I hopefully understand that.
You are correct about Kaffir being serious business and what that person is doing is covering the truth (kufr which is translated here as rejection) as well as mocking it too.
Thus my question has come down to what does that make the person? The theory I have currently is just a big sinner for not protesting it unless they have foolishly ended up believing him which will then make them the kaffir as well.
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Peace,
So I am rather confused about this and worried at the same time too.
So it originally started with originally with 557
"O you who believe, do not take as allies those who have taken your system as fun and games from among those who have been given the Scripture before you and the rejecters. And be aware of God if you are believers." (557)
The part taken as allies I heard some saying it actually means friendship due to how the people of the book have already been discussed in regards to friendship in 551.
Then I saw 668.
"And if you encounter those who make fun of Our revelations, then turn away from them until they move on to a different topic; and if the devil lets you forget, then do not sit after remembering with the wicked people." (66
Here it is instead saying that we should leave the company of those who make until they change subjects, which if 557 did indeed mean friendship, it would be contradictory as this only seems to forbid being near those who say rude stuff about our faith. Anyone wanna clear this up for me please?
Scariest of all was this one
"And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God's revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together." (4140)
The fact that it states that if we don't move that we are like them bothers me but what does it mean by being like them? As in I am a kaffir even though I am not covering the truth and fully believe?? How about arguing? Can't I simply just tell them to not talk about it as most people will usually just stop at that by saying "please don't talk about that"?
As well what if there is no intention behind their ridicule and making of the faith? for example I being in the film industry might have hear a guy acting out a guy who hates the faith and starts mouthing off the faith.
or how about say on Facebook where you see a post of theirs that has already said such a thing? It was done in the past and I didn't hear it, would that count?
Lastly when stating "your system" does it just directly reference the Quran or does it include God in general as I know enough Atheist who keep calling religion fake and God as being fake or those who say our faith is wrong and theirs is correct? Thus not talking about our faith directly.
Anyways i'm quite scared of this. Please help Thank and PLEASE help
Salaam Aryan Warrior jedi
Please take a look at these verses to understand better what awliyaa means
923 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as AWLIYAA, if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.
1723 And your Lord decreed that you shall not serve except He, and do good to your parents. When one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor shout at them, but say to them a kind saying.
So as per my understanding you can talk with them and sit with them but if they make fun of Allah and his ayaats then you can let them know they you don't appreciate it. If they continue then you have to go away from them. When they stop making fun then you can go back and talk with them.
Anyway, what kind of friends are they if they continuous make fun of the things that hurt you most and what kind of person are you to let them laugh at you all the time. It means that it's thus not a big deal at all for you that they ridicule Allah and His ayaats so in fact you are just like them.
btw you is not YOU but general )
Salaam,
Bender -
People aren't THAT much of a jerk as far as i'm aware who will go non-stop at with the Quran bashing, thus why it is expected for you to return to them once they change subjects as it states. As for the second part, that one is backbiting and that is a different case unrelated to Quran bashing which is what we are talking about.
sigh doesn't let up doesn't mean 24/7 literally. The second part was a change in subject...and it can be an exchange of information totally not related to backbiting.I'm a guy who has been born and raised in the west and hanging out with people such as these has in no ways shape or form affected my beliefs...in fact i've gotten more religious as time went on, so I really don't buy the idea that it slips me more into "darkness" cause them poking fun and such doesn't have such effects. Course I haven't really met many people who try to take the verses of the Quran and try to cover AND make fun of them, but might poke fun at their own religions like Christianity and such.
Good for you? Of course, there might be others who'd feel left out or uncool if they didn't do the same as the others. In either case, the verse doesn't really talk about the same thing as casual witty funny pokery.A kaffir is clearly defined as one who covers the truth whether to himself or to others. The person who sits there and doesn't move isn't doing either of those unless he foolishly does start believing them and thus covers the truth for themselves.
Alrighty then.No its QUITE the Eureka cause I believe I got the important part down which was what it meant. The only part i'm still unsure of is the end part of "be like them" which is where I say no Eureka to until I hopefully understand that.
Right.Thus my question has come down to what does that make the person? The theory I have currently is just a big sinner for not protesting it unless they have foolishly ended up believing him which will then make them the kaffir as well.
If you've already differentiated between what is being talked about in the verses i.e. rejection and ridicule from the rest of what it was opined to be...then one part of your concerns has been sincerely laid to rest.The other part i.e. what this hypothetical person would be who doesn't protest and/or get away from someone rejecting and ridiculing the quran for example would be to analyse the motivations for doing so. Like you said, it could be because they believe it or they could be hypocrites in that they play both sides. The verse deliberately mentions both. A 'believer' wouldn't continue to be a part of it (note doesn't mean 24/7 literally)...this isn't hard and fast one time only literally or else that's it, now you're a hypocrite or a kaffir.
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Salaam Aryan Warrior jedi
Please take a look at these verses to understand better what awliyaa means
923 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as AWLIYAA, if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.
1723 And your Lord decreed that you shall not serve except He, and do good to your parents. When one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor shout at them, but say to them a kind saying.
So as per my understanding you can talk with them and sit with them but if they make fun of Allah and his ayaats then you can let them know they you don't appreciate it. If they continue then you have to go away from them. When they stop making fun then you can go back and talk with them.
Peace good Bender,
My understanding of Wali is that it means Allies so I take 923 to mean not to take your brother or father as allies in they choose to stay rejectors instead of believers.
Anyways verse 4140 only requires you to leave IF they say bad about the VERSES of God as it made no mention of God himself there and yes they are differentiated from each other as 965 makes it clear.
"And if you ask them they say "We were only jesting and playing." Say "Is it in God and His verses and His messenger you were mocking?" (965)
Well now that that is past in regards to the ayats, its not even just making fun of it, but rather covering up the truth too as its states "rejected AND ridiculed" if we are talking about 4140. Thus its not simply joking as jokes can be quite meaningless but going on to ridicule which involves bashing as well.
Anyway, what kind of friends are they if they continuous make fun of the things that hurt you most and what kind of person are you to let them laugh at you all the time. It means that it's thus not a big deal at all for you that they ridicule Allah and His ayaats so in fact you are just like them.
btw you is not YOU but general )
Salaam,
BenderYou can't say that sitting there with them like its no big deal makes someone like them as I always say that to myself that "God will deal with them accordingly". Anyways again it only states ayats once again and therefore the Quran, which honestly i've almost never encountered that myself before. I see some of my friends sometimes joke about their own religion like Christianity (I guess this would mean the bible) or joke about God (which isn't amongst those that are mentioned and again it is usually jokes and not ridicule anyways cause ridicule is quite frowned upon nowadays.
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sigh doesn't let up doesn't mean 24/7 literally. The second part was a change in subject...and it can be an exchange of information totally not related to backbiting.
Doesn't matter as the command is that once they change subjects that we can return to them. So if they do it again, we leave again. If you don't like it, then you leave them permanently. That part is up to you.
Good for you? Of course, there might be others who'd feel left out or uncool if they didn't do the same as the others. In either case, the verse doesn't really talk about the same thing as casual witty funny pokery.
lol thanks XD but those are weak people if they wanna join in and there already is a verse mentioned that one shouldn't speak badly of God, the verses and the Prophet I believe so it would cover that for one if that person foolishly joined in and if they believed had entered the state of kufr. But yes, I guess we both then agree that its likely not referring to casual witty funny pokery XD If they make a joke, its not the same as what is mentioned here as they are neither doing covering nor mockery, but empty jokes (which one still shouldn't join in of course )
If you've already differentiated between what is being talked about in the verses i.e. rejection and ridicule from the rest of what it was opined to be...then one part of your concerns has been sincerely laid to rest.
The other part i.e. what this hypothetical person would be who doesn't protest and/or get away from someone rejecting and ridiculing the quran for example would be to analyse the motivations for doing so. Like you said, it could be because they believe it or they could be hypocrites in that they play both sides. The verse deliberately mentions both. A 'believer' wouldn't continue to be a part of it (note doesn't mean 24/7 literally)...this isn't hard and fast one time only literally or else that's it, now you're a hypocrite or a kaffir.
True it does feel far more rested but as always I never am 120% sure until something kicks in me
However not leaving but believing wouldn't make you a kaffir nor a hypocrite. The believer might just be lazy or not feeling like starting something with the person by getting up, thus simply remains quiet during that period and doesn't really pay attention. Again lets review the meaning of kaffir, which means one who covers the truth and a hypocrite is someone who is a kaffir but pretends to be a believer. The believer isn't guilty of either of those and by the description of the Quran, the kaffir is the clear enemy of the believer but that very believer who is unaffected would still fight for the believers against the kaffirs. Thus as i've said earlier too that it states "LIKE them" not actually being them as 6121 stated with being a mushirk. The part that states Kaffir and Mushirk I believe refers to the people you might be talking to who will be going to hell which the fact that they are doing kufr in this verse shows that they are such people first and for most and that mentioned them at the end may be a conclusion as to where these very people who you talk to will end up.
course I am still trying to figure out the part about "like them" as i'm not 100% and if God wills I can understand it
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Doesn't matter as the command is that once they change subjects that we can return to them. So if they do it again, we leave again. If you don't like it, then you leave them permanently. That part is up to you.
Yess.lol thanks XD but those are weak people if they wanna join in and there already is a verse mentioned that one shouldn't speak badly of God, the verses and the Prophet I believe so it would cover that for one if that person foolishly joined in and if they believed had entered the state of kufr. But yes, I guess we both then agree that its likely not referring to casual witty funny pokery XD If they make a joke, its not the same as what is mentioned here as they are neither doing covering nor mockery, but empty jokes (which one still shouldn't join in of course P)
I have quite honestly never met someone as earnest as you in finding ways to avoid stuff looking at the letter of the law so to say ;DHowever not leaving but believing wouldn't make you a kaffir nor a hypocrite. The believer might just be lazy or not feeling like starting something with the person by getting up, thus simply remains quiet during that period and doesn't really pay attention. Again lets review the meaning of kaffir, which means one who covers the truth and a hypocrite is someone who is a kaffir but pretends to be a believer. The believer isn't guilty of either of those and by the description of the Quran, the kaffir is the clear enemy of the believer but that very believer who is unaffected would still fight for the believers against the kaffirs. Thus as i've said earlier too that it states "LIKE them" not actually being them as 6121 stated with being a mushirk. The part that states Kaffir and Mushirk I believe refers to the people you might be talking to who will be going to hell which the fact that they are doing kufr in this verse shows that they are such people first and for most and that mentioned them at the end may be a conclusion as to where these very people who you talk to will end up.
One has some leeway but honestly, laziness is not an excuse. I recall this one dude's theory that laziness is the root of all evil. In either case, you need to understand that if people around you are rejecting and ridiculing something you believe in wholeheartedly and no valid excuse is keeping you from rushing to the door or telling them to shut it...then there is an issue. This is what I mean by real motivations, not occasional laziness or whatever. No believer in anything wholeheartedly will sit around without protest or run off fuming for example on the majority of occasions regardless of whether it is something religious or not. Uncles have destroyed dinner tables laden with food for less than glorious arguments about politics rather than divine scripture. This is what you need to analyse.If you are like them but not them, exactly what is the difference here? You won't end up like them if you don't do what the verse says for you to do?
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I have quite honestly never met someone as earnest as you in finding ways to avoid stuff looking at the letter of the law so to say ;D
May I know what you mean?
One has some leeway but honestly, laziness is not an excuse. I recall this one dude's theory that laziness is the root of all evil. In either case, you need to understand that if people around you are rejecting and ridiculing something you believe in wholeheartedly and no valid excuse is keeping you from rushing to the door or telling them to shut it...then there is an issue. This is what I mean by real motivations, not occasional laziness or whatever. No believer in anything wholeheartedly will sit around without protest or run off fuming for example on the majority of occasions regardless of whether it is something religious or not. Uncles have destroyed dinner tables laden with food for less than glorious arguments about politics rather than divine scripture. This is what you need to analyse.
I don't doubt that laziness is an excuse and don't deny that one SHOULDN'T get up. What i'm getting at is that why it really can't be kufr here and rather just a sin. Laziness can lead to like the sin of not praying cause they are lazy for example. Saying that the person isn't a believer just cause he did or didn't do a certain thing is like saying a believer isn't one who sins and believers do sin here and there and this is another command..out of laziness if not done would best fit the notion of sin i'd think as honestly they haven't done anything kufr related. They haven't covered the truth.
If you are like them but not them, exactly what is the difference here? You won't end up like them if you don't do what the verse says for you to do?
The difference is that the believer hasn't covered the truth even though he has at least sinned. He might hear it, listen to it, and move on with without the slightest influence.
Course what I find interesting in this is that even though I argue here, I don't know a situation where I would fall into this really. In real life, people I know are mostly Christians and Atheists who are pretty relaxed and not waging war against our faith. Christians might joke about the bible or God and the Athists might simply talk about why God isn't real and religion is fake, but neither never try to condemn nor cover the verses of the Quran itself as this command states P
anyways lets keep going )
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May I know what you mean?
It means that you are very intent on the wording in order to avoid the bad stuff.I don't doubt that laziness is an excuse and don't deny that one SHOULDN'T get up. What i'm getting at is that why it really can't be kufr here and rather just a sin. Laziness can lead to like the sin of not praying cause they are lazy for example. Saying that the person isn't a believer just cause he did or didn't do a certain thing is like saying a believer isn't one who sins and believers do sin here and there and this is another command..out of laziness if not done would best fit the notion of sin i'd think as honestly they haven't done anything kufr related. They haven't covered the truth.
I'm just going to summarise the basic stuff Using our sense, we analyse why one would do so without a valid reason and why such people would be called like those who are rejecting and ridiculing. It's not that hard if you think about bad/wrong stuff going on around you and you don't make a statement with/without words. You become part of the problem like I said. And those rejecting and ridiculing are also part of the problem. Thus alike.The difference is that the believer hasn't covered the truth even though he has at least sinned. He might hear it, listen to it, and move on with without the slightest influence.
Once again, it's telling you to make a statement or you become part of the problem. Doesn't mean you are a munafiq or a kaffir.Course what I find interesting in this is that even though I argue here, I don't know a situation where I would fall into this really. In real life, people I know are mostly Christians and Atheists who are pretty relaxed and not waging war against our faith. Christians might joke about the bible or God and the Athists might simply talk about why God isn't real and religion is fake, but neither never try to condemn nor cover the verses of the Quran itself as this command states P
Best to cover all bases when and if. -
Peace be with you as well.
You could ask people to change the subject etc. -
It means that you are very intent on the wording in order to avoid the bad stuff.
Every word in the Quran matters. This book wasn't written by some falliable human who puts in words for the sake of putting in words, but rather its written by God who makes a point of everything that is in there, thus why every word matters to me.
I'm just going to summarise the basic stuff Using our sense, we analyse why one would do so without a valid reason and why such people would be called like those who are rejecting and ridiculing. It's not that hard if you think about bad/wrong stuff going on around you and you don't make a statement with/without words. You become part of the problem like I said. And those rejecting and ridiculing are also part of the problem. Thus alike.
Well with any sin in general, a believer might commit it out of laziness or desire which in the end they may repent if they take notice of it. There is no valid reason to sin either but people do it in the end cause of such reasons.
Once again, it's telling you to make a statement or you become part of the problem. Doesn't mean you are a munafiq or a kaffir.
Oh so we are on the same boat then that the person wouldn't be a munafiq or Kaffir if they stayed and rather a sin. As for the rest, actually it doesn't mention to make a statement at all but rather only mentions to get up and leave or wait it out until they are done before going into the circle. This is I guess my next question as I'd rather respond back then get up and leave myself. If I can get a verse or something stating that we can respond back and not have to leave that'd be great.
Oh and I also want to ask your opinion on these situations in regards to this. Considering it does states ayats, which I normally would think it would refer to the Quran only, do you think this would include the bible or the Torah as well? These were previous scriptures that have been changed up over time so I wouldn't think those can count and considering it states "rejection" which i've always seen used soley for the Quran, do you think this would fit those ones as well?
As well what would you consider as rejection and mockery of verses? like a person lying about them by adding or removing stuff? saying the verses are a lie? trying to explain why the verses are a lie? As well does this specifically only point to verses? as in pinpointing verses cause it didn't mention the book in its entirety which would lead me to believe that an athiest who says that the Quran is fake isn't something that fits this criteria and not covering the truth either as they'd be saying only their opinion.
Anyways what do you think?
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Lastly when stating "your system" does it just directly reference the Quran or does it include God in general as I know enough Atheist who keep calling religion fake and God as being fake or those who say our faith is wrong and theirs is correct? Thus not talking about our faith directly.
Anyways i'm quite scared of this. Please help ( Thank and PLEASE help (
Atheist is right.. religion is fake.. and Deity is fake... and the only thing that religion need protection from ridicule it is because it is ridiculous...
Dien is not 'faith'.. dien is attitude/judgement..
When people make fun of your attitude/judgement or the truth.. sometime it's better to avoid direct confrontation..When you met people who said that those who are not following 'their cult' are confused as they cannot decide on how to say the 'shahada properly' or what to say during prayer or they don't know how to do the 'attahiyat'.. sometime it's better to leave them and not to confront them directly..
Salam / Peace
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Every word in the Quran matters. This book wasn't written by some falliable human who puts in words for the sake of putting in words, but rather its written by God who makes a point of everything that is in there, thus why every word matters to me.
Not saying it doesn't.Well with any sin in general, a believer might commit it out of laziness or desire which in the end they may repent if they take notice of it. There is no valid reason to sin either but people do it in the end cause of such reasons.
If you are equating sin to an action which most probably will have a bad effect etc then laziness or desire leads to certain types of 'sins' ... thus connected in the chain as the first link or whatever. Is thievery a sin? Would you commit it to feed your family if there were no viable choices at the time? I'm not sure exactly what your definition of 'sin' is etc so...Oh so we are on the same boat then that the person wouldn't be a munafiq or Kaffir if they stayed and rather a sin. As for the rest, actually it doesn't mention to make a statement at all but rather only mentions to get up and leave or wait it out until they are done before going into the circle. This is I guess my next question as I'd rather respond back then get up and leave myself. If I can get a verse or something stating that we can respond back and not have to leave that'd be great.
If someone is being a jerk in regards to what you believe for example, and you get up and leave...it's making a statement unless you leave by making excuses of wanting a drink or a trip to the loo? the people you are around might know that's why you're leaving when the excuses run out or if they're smarter than they appear. Doesn't matter in either case.Once again, not sure why you keep bringing 'sin' in. If they engage you when it happens, by all means tell them your reasons if you want, quote the verse if you want, apply the verses on how to engage with such if you want. If they leave you well alone, then there is no need. Obviously, if they care about your company, they'll keep their attitude in check...if not, putting it into real terms...why on earth would you hang around such types anyways? If they are total strangers, then this type of statement does the needful without a confrontation like Jafar said.
Oh and I also want to ask your opinion on these situations in regards to this. Considering it does states ayats, which I normally would think it would refer to the Quran only, do you think this would include the bible or the Torah as well? These were previous scriptures that have been changed up over time so I wouldn't think those can count and considering it states "rejection" which i've always seen used soley for the Quran, do you think this would fit those ones as well?
Not sure, haven't studied it.As well what would you consider as rejection and mockery of verses? like a person lying about them by adding or removing stuff? saying the verses are a lie? trying to explain why the verses are a lie? As well does this specifically only point to verses? as in pinpointing verses cause it didn't mention the book in its entirety which would lead me to believe that an athiest who says that the Quran is fake isn't something that fits this criteria and not covering the truth either as they'd be saying only their opinion.
It's somewhat obvious but we could get technical and make a comprehensive list of what rejection and ridicule entails...another day ).peace
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If you are equating sin to an action which most probably will have a bad effect etc then laziness or desire leads to certain types of 'sins' ... thus connected in the chain as the first link or whatever. Is thievery a sin? Would you commit it to feed your family if there were no viable choices at the time? I'm not sure exactly what your definition of 'sin' is etc so...
A sin is simply doing something God told you not to do. Thus if one were to eat pork, steal, and various other things that they shouldn't, they have sinned. That is sin and it is what is counterbalanced by good deeds which both erase it and if out weigh it bring you to heaven and better yet if one repents the sin is gone as well. That is how I define it.
If someone is being a jerk in regards to what you believe for example, and you get up and leave...it's making a statement unless you leave by making excuses of wanting a drink or a trip to the loo? the people you are around might know that's why you're leaving when the excuses run out or if they're smarter than they appear. Doesn't matter in either case.
Once again, not sure why you keep bringing 'sin' in. If they engage you when it happens, by all means tell them your reasons if you want, quote the verse if you want, apply the verses on how to engage with such if you want. If they leave you well alone, then there is no need. Obviously, if they care about your company, they'll keep their attitude in check...if not, putting it into real terms...why on earth would you hang around such types anyways? If they are total strangers, then this type of statement does the needful without a confrontation like Jafar said.
Understood for the first part. The reason I bring sin is cause if one doesn't get up and leave as the rules say, you have done what is a sin as I explained which is doing something you aren't suppose to do, which is why I stated that even if the person is stated to be "like them" but believes and doesn't join them that they simply have sinned and not done kufr. However what I wanna know is if there is a way that I can simply tell them to stop or argue with them rather than leave cause the verse doesn't say you can do that instead of going away.
Not sure, haven't studied it.
It's somewhat obvious but we could get technical and make a comprehensive list of what rejection and ridicule entails...another day ).peace
I guess its obvious but I wanted to double check.
Like to me with common sense this can only refer to the Quran due to the presence of covering the truth which is always used for that only, and over for covering the truth would require telling lies about the Quran to get people away from it which range from saying lies that normally scare people such as stoning to death, intolerance, etc or lying that certain things are allowed in the Quran, or changing up the meaning of the Quran to scare off people or making things sound far worse than they should in regards to the Quran to scare people off. This would also I think include ridicule considering the world "AND" as one has to mock in some ways if they are covering the truth and if that "and" is the other form of "and" in arabic which is more explanatory then it would further explain that they are covering the truth with ridicule. As well common sense tells me that the person must have the intention of covering the truth for this to come into play and that otherwise they might be talking out of ignorance.
Common sense tells me that jokes aren't a part of this as jokes are meaningless and don't cover the truth like mocking does.
Common sense tells me that God can't be part of the equation here as He is both not mentioned/separate from his verse as an ayat indicates and people all have their own interpretation of God and thus if one is talking to someone else about God being a trinity in front of me, that is simply their belief there and same goes with an Atheist stating God doesn't exist.
Common sense tells me that the Torah nor the Gospal are not a part of this equation as they are previous scriptures that have been changed over time and ayat and covering it has always referred to the Quran itself. Still not sure to what extent this is not included.
Which brings me to the ultimate question of how much the Gospal and Torah fit in the equation. Considering we got similar stories like Noahs Ark in it. Considering all those Atheists I know around me are mostly of a Christian background they'd refer to that if trying to say it never happened which begs the question of what happens if they are simply explaining their views which therefore refers to trying to explain why Noahs Ark never happened to them. Makes me wonder if that fits under covering the truth if such even though they are going into it from a Christian mindset and no an Islamic one / My common sense would tell me if it seems like they are intending to cover the truth, then it would fit however not sure how it'd work with ridicule (that is if it indeed is separate from the notion of covering the truth) and of course the I still wonder if empty jokes like the ones the Christians usually crack still fit in under ridicule and that i'm taking that meaning of ridicule too lightly /
Maybe its Satan who is screwing with my head to no end but these are stuff that are really bogging my head. You have been very kind in helping me so far in understanding so much and looking back I have come a long way since I began this topic. I hope to hear what you think further on what I just stated so we can start wrapping things up )
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I enjoyed reading your post. I have a strong committment to living in a righteous way, as previous to serving God Alone I was extremely sinful. My western workmates like to backbite & they gossip constantly, drink & party, talk about their sexual affairs etc. At first I accepted their social invitations, but I found I was being influenced by them and ever since I became a submitter to God Alone, I don't enjoy being around this type of behaviour, or doing it myself, so I stopped going to their social events. Now I keep to myself at work apart from professional discussions. The rest of my workmates and people in my community follow corrupted form of Islam (Sunnis) and I don't mix with them socially either. I sometimes find it a very lonely and challenging road to be the outsider. I do not have any friends where I live (in a small town in UAE). All I have is Freeminds!!! I live by myself and I am mostly spending my time in the house. I read & study Quran, pray, watch TV documentaries, movies, news. I feel happy most of the time but some days I really feel lonely for righteous friends. I wonder about others who serve God Alone. Do you feel isolated? How do you cope with the lack of social / emotional support?
I am thinking that when I finish my work contract here, I would like to move somewhere in the world where I can be near to others who have the same beliefs. God willing I will be able to get the necessary visa and financially be able to afford to do this.Wow, lol, I always just assumed I am antisocial, but I know exactly what you are talking about. Honestly I mean I would hate calling my self 'righteous' because I am so disgustingly not....well I have very few friends who I was so lucky I got to know, and they were something I aspired to be, they were funny, good company, God fearing, and loved God very intelligent in their own ways, lots of ideas....and were not pretentious about it at all and cared enough to want me to have what they have. I did move on and I am not around them anymore, and ever since I did, as you said all the backbiting and all that stuff you mentioned lol and being righteously self obsessed I just...don't like being social, I never did anyways, but some people are out there who are easy to talk to feel yourself with without feeling 'turn on social face now'. But even those...I don't know...the idea that nothing lasts makes me feel why even bother...yup im lethargic like that lol...
I don't know what to tell you, I was raised living a lone for the most part, so I actually have difficulty coping with HAVING to talk to people including my parents...and even the good friends...I take that back I AM antisocial lol.
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A sin is simply doing something God told you not to do. Thus if one were to eat pork, steal, and various other things that they shouldn't, they have sinned. That is sin and it is what is counterbalanced by good deeds which both erase it and if out weigh it bring you to heaven and better yet if one repents the sin is gone as well. That is how I define it.
Imo, doing something that you were told not to do is bad for a reason, not just because you did it...consequences/repercussions etc. Most times the things we are told not to do will have negative repercussions but not all the time for example. If one understands this, then the concept of 'sin' is clearer and not really similar to a point system. Not saying you believe in such a system, just clarifying.Understood for the first part. The reason I bring sin is cause if one doesn't get up and leave as the rules say, you have done what is a sin as I explained which is doing something you aren't suppose to do, which is why I stated that even if the person is stated to be "like them" but believes and doesn't join them that they simply have sinned and not done kufr. However what I wanna know is if there is a way that I can simply tell them to stop or argue with them rather than leave cause the verse doesn't say you can do that instead of going away.
This is why we need to understand the core of what it is telling us instead of focusing overly on the 'completely correct for all situations' procedure, step by step by a myopic examination of the words. If you understand the core as not being a part of it for example...then in a real life situation you could either not take part in the conversation, you could leave the room (in which case how will you know if they changed the topic? is it talking about another day? but that's not in the verse! P), you could stand in a corner, you could distract them with a different subject, you could make excuses so on and so forth. As this is getting into a detailed walkthrough of what to do for every situation of rejection and ridicule...which in itself is kinda stupid imo given the diverse ways to apply such in diverse situations involving rejection and ridicule, it's not really something to overly fuss over.I guess its obvious but I wanted to double check.
Like to me with common sense this can only refer to the Quran due to the presence of covering the truth which is always used for that only, and over for covering the truth would require telling lies about the Quran to get people away from it which range from saying lies that normally scare people such as stoning to death, intolerance, etc or lying that certain things are allowed in the Quran, or changing up the meaning of the Quran to scare off people or making things sound far worse than they should in regards to the Quran to scare people off. This would also I think include ridicule considering the world "AND" as one has to mock in some ways if they are covering the truth and if that "and" is the other form of "and" in arabic which is more explanatory then it would further explain that they are covering the truth with ridicule. As well common sense tells me that the person must have the intention of covering the truth for this to come into play and that otherwise they might be talking out of ignorance.
Common sense tells me that jokes aren't a part of this as jokes are meaningless and don't cover the truth like mocking does.
Common sense tells me that God can't be part of the equation here as He is both not mentioned/separate from his verse as an ayat indicates and people all have their own interpretation of God and thus if one is talking to someone else about God being a trinity in front of me, that is simply their belief there and same goes with an Atheist stating God doesn't exist.
Common sense tells me that the Torah nor the Gospal are not a part of this equation as they are previous scriptures that have been changed over time and ayat and covering it has always referred to the Quran itself. Still not sure to what extent this is not included.
Which brings me to the ultimate question of how much the Gospal and Torah fit in the equation. Considering we got similar stories like Noahs Ark in it. Considering all those Atheists I know around me are mostly of a Christian background they'd refer to that if trying to say it never happened which begs the question of what happens if they are simply explaining their views which therefore refers to trying to explain why Noahs Ark never happened to them. Makes me wonder if that fits under covering the truth if such even though they are going into it from a Christian mindset and no an Islamic one / My common sense would tell me if it seems like they are intending to cover the truth, then it would fit however not sure how it'd work with ridicule (that is if it indeed is separate from the notion of covering the truth) and of course the I still wonder if empty jokes like the ones the Christians usually crack still fit in under ridicule and that i'm taking that meaning of ridicule too lightly /
Maybe its Satan who is screwing with my head to no end but these are stuff that are really bogging my head. You have been very kind in helping me so far in understanding so much and looking back I have come a long way since I began this topic. I hope to hear what you think further on what I just stated so we can start wrapping things up )
I agree broadly that it could be referring to serious and/or negative situations but it can also refer to useless situations where taking part or just being around such crap might have negative repercussions. It all comes down to what you believe is true and the attitude in which this is taking place. It's more of a learning type of process and maybe practical experience would help. Imagine rl scenarios where what you believe for sure at the moment, is being rejected and ridiculed (by whom etc etc) and what/how you would feel/think/react and work from/with that? That might help clarify some of it. -
Imo, doing something that you were told not to do is bad for a reason, not just because you did it...consequences/repercussions etc. Most times the things we are told not to do will have negative repercussions but not all the time for example. If one understands this, then the concept of 'sin' is clearer and not really similar to a point system. Not saying you believe in such a system, just clarifying.
Well I understand that God tells us not to do it because its bad, however there is clear accumulation of it which is why we are told to do good deeds and repent to clear them so we have a better chance at getting to heaven.
This is why we need to understand the core of what it is telling us instead of focusing overly on the 'completely correct for all situations' procedure, step by step by a myopic examination of the words. If you understand the core as not being a part of it for example...then in a real life situation you could either not take part in the conversation, you could leave the room (in which case how will you know if they changed the topic? is it talking about another day? but that's not in the verse! P), you could stand in a corner, you could distract them with a different subject, you could make excuses so on and so forth. As this is getting into a detailed walkthrough of what to do for every situation of rejection and ridicule...which in itself is kinda stupid imo given the diverse ways to apply such in diverse situations involving rejection and ridicule, it's not really something to overly fuss over.
I understand and I guess I am a bit fussy overall lol but regardless I guess what you are saying is that walking away is probably one way God is telling us to handle the situation?
I agree broadly that it could be referring to serious and/or negative situations but it can also refer to useless situations where taking part or just being around such crap might have negative repercussions. It all comes down to what you believe is true and the attitude in which this is taking place. It's more of a learning type of process and maybe practical experience would help. Imagine rl scenarios where what you believe for sure at the moment, is being rejected and ridiculed (by whom etc etc) and what/how you would feel/think/react and work from/with that? That might help clarify some of it.
Well considering being around such crap I don't think is the idea of it having negative repercussions on you otherwise we'd be banned from reading, looking or hearing anything related to the matter such as books that do just that P Then again I am probably thinking on the scale of negative repercussions referring more to the hearer being influenced, which I guess does happen however not much I'd think. I would think one of the things probably is as you stated how one would react which for example, some of the extremists go as far as killing the person for saying such things. That whole Newspaper cartoon thing a while back that caused that massive flashback that led to many wanting his head O_O
Regardless the situations i'm talking about that are empty "joke" like say an atheist might say "haha, and you believe a man parted the river" he isn't trying to cover the truth nor does it seem like he is mocking the book and in the end says it as a joke. When I think of this verse personally I think someone saying "You see in the Quran this (insert false interpretation/verse) has been said therefore why its so cruel and you should leave it". However what I wonder is what if someone is simply stating an argument like Athiests might use verse to explain their reason why they don't believe. The Athiest I wouldn't see him mocking the verse with a false interpretation nor purposely covering the truth trying to make you leave the Quran.
Still unsure how the Gospal or Torah fit in all this too as I only unhold the Quran afterall.
What do you think?
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Well I understand that God tells us not to do it because its bad, however there is clear accumulation of it which is why we are told to do good deeds and repent to clear them so we have a better chance at getting to heaven.
I don't think of it in such terms...you do something that most likely can/will have negative repercussions and if you do it enough the chances of such go up. The repentance is a way for you to psychologically clear the slate of bad habits for example and start afresh...like a resolution. In this life, that is.I understand and I guess I am a bit fussy overall lol but regardless I guess what you are saying is that walking away is probably one way God is telling us to handle the situation?
I suppose, yes...Well considering being around such crap I don't think is the idea of it having negative repercussions on you otherwise we'd be banned from reading, looking or hearing anything related to the matter such as books that do just that P Then again I am probably thinking on the scale of negative repercussions referring more to the hearer being influenced, which I guess does happen however not much I'd think. I would think one of the things probably is as you stated how one would react which for example, some of the extremists go as far as killing the person for saying such things. That whole Newspaper cartoon thing a while back that caused that massive flashback that led to many wanting his head O_O
Agreed.Regardless the situations i'm talking about that are empty "joke" like say an atheist might say "haha, and you believe a man parted the river" he isn't trying to cover the truth nor does it seem like he is mocking the book and in the end says it as a joke. When I think of this verse personally I think someone saying "You see in the Quran this (insert false interpretation/verse) has been said therefore why its so cruel and you should leave it". However what I wonder is what if someone is simply stating an argument like Athiests might use verse to explain their reason why they don't believe. The Athiest I wouldn't see him mocking the verse with a false interpretation nor purposely covering the truth trying to make you leave the Quran.
If someone is rejecting something and ridiculing it...it's a bit different from an Atheist using a verse to explain their reasoning. It's somewhat obvious to me when that is going on which is why I suggested doing visualisation exercises P If unsure then just let it go until you are sure that is what's going on. It isn't talking about a kneejerk reaction, that you have to leave within 3.0 sec of someone using a verse and swearing at it or that's it, you're a 'sinner'.Still unsure how the Gospal or Torah fit in all this too as I only unhold the Quran afterall.
What do you think?
Like I said, haven't studied it as such...will update when I do. Personally, I usually go by the rule of thumb leave if it extends to crap with an attitude regardless of what it is. Engage only when it makes sense to. I realise it doesn't answer your question regarding what's included in such but that pretty much covers it for me personally. peace.
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I don't think of it in such terms...you do something that most likely can/will have negative repercussions and if you do it enough the chances of such go up. The repentance is a way for you to psychologically clear the slate of bad habits for example and start afresh...like a resolution. In this life, that is.
Well sure it will have negative repercussions in life which is why we are told not to do it, however God has told us punishment exists for one who does too many of these, thus why we got the concept of sin, which is always called a "transgression" and a few other things along the lines in the Quran.
If someone is rejecting something and ridiculing it...it's a bit different from an Atheist using a verse to explain their reasoning. It's somewhat obvious to me when that is going on which is why I suggested doing visualisation exercises P If unsure then just let it go until you are sure that is what's going on. It isn't talking about a kneejerk reaction, that you have to leave within 3.0 sec of someone using a verse and swearing at it or that's it, you're a 'sinner'.
Speaking of "timing", what I find interesting is that the way this is worded out is that its likely a lengthy discussion which clearly someone covering the truth or mocking it would do, while a joke is short and quick there. In regards to joking, let me throw you another example. What if someone said, "Yeah this book is as real as the existance of Jesus"? They aren't covering the truth but is that considered mocking or joking? or how about when one talks about alcohol they jokingly say, "Prophet Muhammad probably drank alcohol" or another joke I heard a while ago was "I placed the bible in the fiction section" which that one also connects to the other books I had questions about.
Basically these are empty and very quick and without the intent of covering the truth, yet what I wonder is are those considering mocking or joking? they aren't slandering it which is what I would think mocking does, which why I think joking but i'm unsure.
Also how about the case of where I hear someone telling someone else why the Quran is wrong with intention of converting them to their own religion such as christian missionaries. Or what if that is being told to me directly and I simply stay quiet?
I know you said I should let it go till i'm sure but thinking and thinking about it while it has helped hasn't fully given me a concrete answer yet that I can go on with life about.
but yeah what do you think?