Hi guys
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When I was looking for the answer to a question I came across this forum. As I am not a Muslim but a non-believer living in an Islamic country, I am confronted with Islam on a daily basis and want to understand what and why Muslims think and believe.
I have read extensively and have discussed Islam with Imams and Koran teachers, but I can't speak to Muslims about how they consolidate their religion with the 21st century in everyday life without being insensitive. So this is why I look for answers to my questions on the various forums run by Muslims to understand Muslims.
If I seem callous or emotional, please understand that I am not trained in communicating with religious people and my critical and sceptic approach is apparent not only in religion.
Thanks
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Hello )
As a starter, Please note that this forum would have the approach/perspective of following the Quran Alone. We do not really follow or consider Hadiths/sunnah as a religious revelation.
We might have differences in our beliefs about specific subjects, however, we would kind of unit under the banner of following the Quran alone.
So what is it that you were asking ? -
Thank you for the clarification. I will try and remember this. I would have a hard time only considering the Koran because of my lack of being able to understand many things, such as who Abu Lahab is and what he did to deserve the cruel treatment in chapter 111. But I'm sure you have your reasons and have found a way to develop an explanation.
My question was around 144, where I can't understand the process of who was sent where from where speaking which language. I'll have a look around to see whether anyone has tackled something similar yet.
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I'm not even a Muslim but I really do tried to understand how they are doing.
Do you have a specific reason why?
Oh and do you think any "competition" would be embarrassed if someone bought artificial numbers as mentioned in your signature? Wouldn't the one who bought this be more embarrassed if anyone found out?
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Shalom Aleikhem StopS,
If you wanted to understand "muslims" better, you have to take a different route. However, if you want to know about their scriptures and study them, you could start by reading them.
My question was around 144, where I can't understand the process of who was sent where from where speaking which language. I'll have a look around to see whether anyone has tackled something similar yet.
141 ALR, a Book which We have sent down to you so that you may bring the people out of the darkness and into the light with the permission of their Lord, to the path of the Noble, the Praiseworthy.
142 God, to whom belong all that is in the heavens and the earth. And woe to the rejecters from a severe retribution.
143 The ones who have preferred the worldly life over the Hereafter, and they repel from the path of God, and they seek to make it crooked. Those are the ones who are in misguidance.
144 And We have not sent any messenger except in the language of his people, so he may clarify for them. But God misguides whom He wills, and He guides whom He wills. And He is the Noble, the Wise.
I really failed to recognize your problem . The author claims to have sent messengers who have the minimum qualification of knowing the language of the audience. Why would it require the extra details you are seeking ? Especially when that does not address the point the author is making.
For example, if I want to make clear that I tried hard to find a job and I write to you
"I have looked for a job in every places that are relevant to my qualifications "
Why would I write the names of all the countries,towns,villages,companies,people that I came across ? That isnt the point I was emphasizing there...is it ? As long as I got my point across, it should be fair enough.
As for Abu-Lahab
1111 Condemned are the hands of the fire maker; condemned.
1112 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1113 He will be sent to a flaming fire.
1114 And his wife who carries the logs.
1115 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.I hope you can see why I do not think its a specific individual. However, this does not mean that this can not be applied to a specific individual who fits the criteria.
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
Welcome...I think I have replied to something of yours before...anyhow.
Glad you are willing to ask questions instead of making assumptions. There are a lot of knowledgeable users on the forum, and I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
Peace,
Amina
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If you wanted to understand "muslims" better, you have to take a different route.
If I am the person who wants to understand, shouldn't I be the one who decides how I understand best?
However, if you want to know about their scriptures and study them, you could start by reading them.
Not very original, but true, I guess. How many times would you suggest?
I really failed to recognize your problem . The author claims to have sent messengers who have the minimum qualification of knowing the language of the audience. Why would it require the extra details you are seeking ? Especially when that does not address the point the author is making.
Don't feel bad, you are not alone. Islamic scholars have thought about this for 1400 years and have not found a solution which is universally accepted.
And I have a suggestion for you repeating a problem never solves it.
Now look at my question again. I did not say I don't understand the words or the context or the contents. I said I don't understand the PROCESS.
Where does the text say the messengers speak the language of the intended audience? Where does it say who went where with what level of knowledge with what goal? The process, not the words. Did a messenger speaking Icelandic leave Medina and travel to Iceland? Or did a messenger speaking Icelandic arise from within the Icelandic people?
And if the language the message was transmitted in was Icelandic, what was the message? If the message was the same as what was transmitted to the Arabs, did the messengers speak Arabic? If they did not speak Arabic but Icelandic was there a perfect translation of the Koran? If there was, where is it today in all the languages used by all the messengers?So many questions.....
As for Abu-Lahab
1111 Condemned are the hands of the fire maker; condemned.
1112 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1113 He will be sent to a flaming fire.
1114 And his wife who carries the logs.
1115 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.I hope you can see why I do not think its a specific individual. However, this does not mean that this can not be applied to a specific individual who fits the criteria.
No, sorry, I don't see your point at all.
Are you saying it is a coincidence that the entire chapter is named after Muhammad's uncle? Are you saying it is a coincidence that his uncle criticised him and you are justified to call this a generic chapter?
Does that mean the chapter talks about fire-makers who have money? What is this or what are these fire-makers sent to hell for?
Does that mean that every wife of every fire-starter needs to be punished? What if the wife did not "carry the logs"?I find this a bit far-fetched, to be honest. But if that is what you want it to mean, then fine.
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Welcome...I think I have replied to something of yours before...anyhow.
Glad you are willing to ask questions instead of making assumptions. There are a lot of knowledgeable users on the forum, and I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
Peace,
Amina
Thank you for your kind words. Much appreciated.
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Peace StopS.
Thank you for your question.
I do not know if I can answer your question, but I will try and give this analysis
Everything to do with "Heaven", "Hell" "After life" in Koran is allegorical.
Both Abu Lahab and his wife were involved in " prosecuting the prophet". He and his wife were aware of these verses for years, yet they continued their "prosecution". GOD knew their innermost thought. HE knew they would not repent.
First why the allegory Here is what the Koran says
37 He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
Second, Here is a different translation of "Chapter 111"
1111 Condemned are the works of Abee Lahab, and he is condemned.*
1112 His money and whatever he has accomplished will never help him.
1113 He has incurred the blazing Hell.
1114 Also his wife, who led the persecution.
1115 She will be (resurrected) with a rope of thorns around her neck.Lastly Why the language of the messenger
4144 If We made it a non- Arabic Koran,( scripture) they would have said why did it come down in that language.( Whatever language GOD chooses, there is always those who want it in a different one?) Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic ( It happens to be Arabic because the messenger was Arab! GOD sent the Torah in Hebrew, the language of the children of Israel and Jesus spoke Aramaic ,so the Gospel came in Aramaic) Say? For those who believe, it is a guide and healing; As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it ( Even if they were pure Arabs!) as if they were addressed from far away.? ( Nowadays no language is a barrier! The message is more important than the language! More importantly if GOD is the author, HE guides with HIS words those who choose to be guided?)
I hope this helps.
Peace.
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Everything to do with "Heaven", "Hell" "After life" in Koran is allegorical.
Interesting. How do you know that?
Both Abu Lahab and his wife were involved in " prosecuting the prophet". He and his wife were aware of these verses for years, yet they continued their "prosecution". GOD knew their innermost thought. HE knew they would not repent.
How do you know that? Where does the Koran mention this?
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.
Do you consider this a real argument? I think this is very, very weak, because you have no idea which is in what category and does not help the claims that the Koran is clear and easy to understand and remember. Don't you think humans should immediately and clearly understand the messages how they are intended?
Lastly Why the language of the messenger
4144 If We made it a non- Arabic Koran,( scripture) they would have said why did it come down in that language.( Whatever language GOD chooses, there is always those who want it in a different one?) Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic ( It happens to be Arabic because the messenger was Arab! GOD sent the Torah in Hebrew, the language of the children of Israel and Jesus spoke Aramaic ,so the Gospel came in Aramaic) Say? For those who believe, it is a guide and healing; As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it ( Even if they were pure Arabs!) as if they were addressed from far away.? ( Nowadays no language is a barrier! The message is more important than the language! More importantly if GOD is the author, HE guides with HIS words those who choose to be guided?)
I don't know what your sources are, but the Christian Gospels were not ever written in Aramaic, but very clear and high level Greek. They contradict each other in nearly every detail.
Do you seriously think a god would use a book to communicate a universal message to a small group of humans using sentences which are nonsensical to those very humans? A book is a human invention. By humans, from humans for humans.I agree wholeheartedly with you when you say that people who want to believe will believe and feel guided.
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Shalom aleikhem,
It looks like you misunderstood me, however, probably my tone contributed towards that.
If I am the person who wants to understand, shouldn't I be the one who decides how I understand best?
I wasn't talking about that. What I meant was, muslims and Islam are 2 different subjects and fields. One is anthropological in nature, that is the muslim culture. The other is scriptural studies. That is why I asked you to go to other route if you want to study "muslims". For example, one who wants to study English people would take a different route than one who wants to study the English language/literature. There are common grounds, but distinctly differing routes. I hope I clarified myself )
Not very original, but true, I guess. How many times would you suggest?
Being different for the sake of it is by no definition the right methodology. ) Anyways, its totally upto you and your limits. None other than you can solve this issue for yourself.
Don't feel bad, you are not alone. Islamic scholars have thought about this for 1400 years and have not found a solution which is universally accepted.
Considering the fact that even I do not subscribe to "islamic scholar"'s authority....I could care less if they came to similar conclusions or not. Thats none of my business and I do not see my benefit in that.
And I have a suggestion for you repeating a problem never solves it.
I do not know what you are referring to. However, if you are indicating my pasting of the subject at hand (the excerpt from Qur'an), I must confess that I know of no better way other than dealing with the subject itself instead of speculating in it's absence.
Now look at my question again. I did not say I don't understand the words or the context or the contents. I said I don't understand the PROCESS.
Probably that is where the misunderstanding happened.
Where does the text say the messengers speak the language of the intended audience? Where does it say who went where with what level of knowledge with what goal? The process, not the words. Did a messenger speaking Icelandic leave Medina and travel to Iceland? Or did a messenger speaking Icelandic arise from within the Icelandic people?
And if the language the message was transmitted in was Icelandic, what was the message? If the message was the same as what was transmitted to the Arabs, did the messengers speak Arabic? If they did not speak Arabic but Icelandic was there a perfect translation of the Koran? If there was, where is it today in all the languages used by all the messengers?So many questions.....
Its fascinating how exactly that is what I addressed in my previous post. It looks to me that you want more details regarding every situation and people and circumstances involved. When that isnt the point the "author" is addressing, I wonder where one should draw the line. I mean, what was the messenger's blood group ? God...we don't know a thing..do we ?
I have a better suggestion. Why don't you separate the questions and post them as individual threads to share your views and let others share theirs ? I am sure it will be productive.
No, sorry, I don't see your point at all.
Are you saying it is a coincidence that the entire chapter is named after Muhammad's uncle? Are you saying it is a coincidence that his uncle criticised him and you are justified to call this a generic chapter?
Does that mean the chapter talks about fire-makers who have money? What is this or what are these fire-makers sent to hell for?
Does that mean that every wife of every fire-starter needs to be punished? What if the wife did not "carry the logs"?Sorry, once again I failed to see where Muhammad's uncle was mentioned in the Qur'an. From beginning to end, no mention of any uncles, yet that is what you are after. One can take a wild trip of guesswork and attribute the chapter to anyone they like....that does not change the fact that the so called "uncle" is no where to be found in the subject matter...the Qur'an.
Once again, if you want to discuss this chapter, open a thread about this chapter. That will help. )
I find this a bit far-fetched, to be honest. But if that is what you want it to mean, then fine.
I found your understanding of the chapter far-fetched too. I can be wrong, but I think you need some lesson in "literature". It helps when you are dealing with texts. I wish I had more knowledge that I have in this field. I hope we all can increase in all relevant knowledge in life.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Peace StopS.
Whether your questions can be answered depends on how much you want to learn and sincerely search for the truth.
I can give you a link http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/blog/
You may find your answers or you may not. Most of the topics I dealt with are backed by" Koran"
Please do come back with more questions. Debating /asking/learning is why we use the forum for.
Peace.
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I wasn't talking about that. What I meant was, muslims and Islam are 2 different subjects and fields. One is anthropological in nature, that is the muslim culture. The other is scriptural studies. That is why I asked you to go to other route if you want to study "muslims". For example, one who wants to study English people would take a different route than one who wants to study the English language/literature. There are common grounds, but distinctly differing routes. I hope I clarified myself )
Yes, but I consider this to be wrong. Islam is based on "scripture", the Koran, and human interpretations, the sunnah, and further topical excursions into jurisprudence, economy, etc etc Muslims are humans who follow this contents. I am questioning the contents of specific sentences in the Koran.
I do not know what you are referring to. However, if you are indicating my pasting of the subject at hand (the excerpt from Qur'an), I must confess that I know of no better way other than dealing with the subject itself instead of speculating in it's absence.
I asked a question regarding 144. I left out the English translation so that everyone could look it up in their language and the original to avoid being accused of questioning a translation.
You then simply copy/pasted some more sentences without an explanation, but a remark "I really failed to recognize your problem"
So all you have done so far is make a snide remark and repeat parts of my problem. Do you see now that you have not contributed much to suggesting a solution?
Its fascinating how exactly that is what I addressed in my previous post. It looks to me that you want more details regarding every situation and people and circumstances involved. When that isnt the point the "author" is addressing, I wonder where one should draw the line. I mean, what was the messenger's blood group ? God...we don't know a thing..do we ?
I have a better suggestion. Why don't you separate the questions and post them as individual threads to share your views and let others share theirs ? I am sure it will be productive.
No, sorry, you have not addressed anything yet. No, I do not want more details. What is so unclear in my question?
Sorry, once again I failed to see where Muhammad's uncle was mentioned in the Qur'an.
That is my point he is not. We have no way of understanding who is meant. As I pointed out when I mentioned it I'm sure you have your reasons and have found a way to develop an explanation. My question was around 144...
So we can drop 111 and concentrate on
I said I don't understand the PROCESS.Where does the text say the messengers speak the language of the intended audience? Where does it say who went where with what level of knowledge with what goal? The process, not the words. Did a messenger speaking Icelandic leave Medina and travel to Iceland? Or did a messenger speaking Icelandic arise from within the Icelandic people?
And if the language the message was transmitted in was Icelandic, what was the message? If the message was the same as what was transmitted to the Arabs, did the messengers speak Arabic? If they did not speak Arabic but Icelandic was there a perfect translation of the Koran? If there was, where is it today in all the languages used by all the messengers?This one and the same topic.
These are questions supposed to help show the dilemma the Koran leaves me in. If you don't understand this, don't worry and never mind, maybe someone else will know how to solve this.
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Stops
there is a difference between what muslims think and believe and what
the way of life that is in Quran Kareem.Just like there is a difference in what the messenger jesus taught and what christians do!
You have to read Quran.
but you will have a problem, and that would be with God himself.
You can read it but if God has not chosen you to be guided it will make no sense to you
thus blocking you out intentionally because of your non-belief
that is why you have such difficulty understanding something as simple as abu-lahab
there are things in the Quran that I just grasp after 30 years of reflection
so to be kufr and try to understand Quran......... you have no shot.
Let's read what God say's on this issue1857] Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.
Glorifying Him are the seven universes, the earth, and everyone in them. There is nothing that does not glorify Him, but you do not understand their glorification. He is Clement, Forgiver.
When you read the Quran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier.
these are some examples as to why unbelief prevents one from understanding God and his revelations to believers.
I hope this is helpfulPeace O0
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Peace StopS.
Read it for you, to find out about it.
Do not believe what anyone else thinks about it.That is if you want to, of course.I hope you do.
Peace. -
Does this make any sense to you?
I need to read a book, whose understanding is deliberately withheld?
Peace Stops
your are right
but the overall meaning you missed, and that is
if you are a believer you need to Read the Quran
and if you are not a believer you will not be able to understand itso to be kufr and try to understand Quran......... you have no shot.
1857] Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided
Peace O0
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Peace StopS.
Read it for you, to find out about it.
Do not believe what anyone else thinks about it.That is if you want to, of course.I hope you do.
Peace.How many times?
I have been discussing details in the Koran here. I can do this because I have read the Koran many times. I have read the Koran with ibn Kathir, al-Jalalayn, Tabari et al. I have read the commentaries usually suggested by Koran teachers.
How many more times do you suggest I should read it?
I don't agree with the trend of Muslims claiming the Koran's contents is only available for those who deserve it, so I try and understand anyway to understand what it says so I can make an informed decision without relying too much on outside propaganda.
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Peace StopS.
As long as the decision/conclusion you get is your own, that is fine.
You are checking/investigating ,then you are making up your own mind. You seem to be going about it in the right manner.
Also if things are not making sense to you ;You are not accepting them. That is the correct way.
I wish you the best of luck with your search.
Peace.