I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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ok if you don't believe that the Koran is the truth then you can't really talk about the contents of the koran.
Yes I can.
so you have rejected the koran which means you have rejected what the quran says about nazreans (not christians who believe jesus is son of God), sabians, jews, or whoever does good deeds will enter paradise. so, this verse is not the truth then.
like i said what lead you to reject the koran is what lead me towards it. men surely would not have said any other community would enter paradise.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
ask an average mainstream muslim for example, s/he will tell you that if you don't pray, fast, wear a hijab, following hadiths (their system of belief) then you are going to hell. each group will tell you that you have to belong to their group for salvation. if the koran was written by men hundreds of years ago, don't you think it would be more like hadiths claiming that hell will be filled up with women? or that only arabs will go to heaven or muslims or the elite or whatever? well, just think about it for a moment. think about human nature and behavior. given human nature, you really think group of arab men especially would have said... you can be a jew and go to heaven if you do good deeds.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
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Yes I can.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
bravo
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Yes I can.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
if you reject the koran as the truth then it sure doesn't make sense to question verses in the koran as according to you, they are all crap, false, not logical, and so on. why would you talk about any verses in the koran questioning it when you have rejected it? unless of course you are now having doubts about your rejection. hmmm....
so now you seem to know muhammed quite well and his intentions. have you met him, talked to him? hey, i am just talking your own language here. so what you are saying is that muhammed had a self serving agenda and so per your logic and reasoning, he would have said it for gain but how about the christians, the sabians, and the other folks?
ok faithful-jinn, so we have this koran that you say is not word of God. that means they are the words of men or do you believe that aliens from another planet wrote them? so who wrote the koran? muhammed only? bunch of arab guys and who do you suppose these arab guys were? and what agenda do you suppose they had?
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if you reject the koran as the truth then it sure doesn't make sense to question verses in the koran as according to you, they are all crap, false, not logical, and so on. why would you talk about any verses in the koran questioning it when you have rejected it? unless of course you are now having doubts about your rejection. hmmm....
Don't be childish. Obviously for the sake of argument I'm assuming the Qur'an is true. Are you suggesting only Muslims should ever talk about or comment on the Qur'an or Islam?
so now you seem to know muhammed quite well and his intentions. have you met him, talked to him? hey, i am just talking your own language here. so what you are saying is that muhammed had a self serving agenda and so per your logic and reasoning, he would have said it for gain but how about the christians, the sabians, and the other folks?
I'm not saying I know his intentions. I'm presenting a fact of history that while the Qur'an was being revealed and that when Muhammad fled to Medina, he formed an alliance with the Medina Jews. This is a fact of history that has nothing to do with theology, religion, or faith.
ok faithful-jinn, so we have this koran that you say is not word of God. that means they are the words of men or do you believe that aliens from another planet wrote them? so who wrote the koran? muhammed only? bunch of arab guys and who do you suppose these arab guys were? and what agenda do you suppose they had?
I'm not claiming to know anything. I'm simply saying I have no valid reason to believe the Qur'an comes from God and that I have reasons to be skeptical of its alleged divine origin.
Believing the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so is not a valid reason.
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Don't be childish. Obviously for the sake of argument I'm assuming the Qur'an is true. Are you suggesting only Muslims should ever talk about or comment on the Qur'an or Islam?
No you don't have to be a muslim but your position is that Quran is not true. You cannot make the assumption that the Koran is true when your position is that it is not. By the way, I'll just ignore your comment about my maturity level.
I'm not saying I know his intentions. I'm presenting a fact of history that while the Qur'an was being revealed and that when Muhammad fled to Medina, he formed an alliance with the Medina Jews. This is a fact of history that has nothing to do with theology, religion, or faith.
....but wait a minute. your position is that the koran is not from God. but now you are saying that it is a fact of history that the Quran was revealed? what are you saying now that Koran was revealed (from God) is a historical fact? hmmm......
Believing the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so is not a valid reason.
you are right about that. so you have this koran with you that you don't believe is from God. Surely, you have thought about then who wrote it, when and why? first of all what made you believe in the first place that it was from God?
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If you were born in a world where nobody practiced religion and religious dogma didn't exist why would you ever believe in heaven, hell, or judgment? What would make you come to that conclusion without some sort of precedent for your beliefs?
I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!
I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.
So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.
God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.
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No you don't have to be a muslim but your position is that Quran is not true. You cannot make the assumption that the Koran is true when your position is that it is not. By the way, I'll just ignore your comment about my maturity level.
Yes I can. What you're saying is absolutely ridiculous. What you're saying is that people of different beliefs SHOULD NEVER discuss or debate theology with each because side A doesn't believe something from side B is true. I have to question your maturity level when you say something so nonsensical.
....but wait a minute. your position is that the koran is not from God. but now you are saying that it is a fact of history that the Quran was revealed? what are you saying now that Koran was revealed (from God) is a historical fact? hmmm......
More childishness.
you are right about that. so you have this koran with you that you don't believe is from God. Surely, you have thought about then who wrote it, when and why? first of all what made you believe in the first place that it was from God?
I don't know. The difference between me and you is I claim not to know and you claim to know it is from God.
What made me believe in the first place is the spiritual truths I saw from the Qur'an in my own life. I thought it was from God because I thought it was all true and that I was experiencing God in my life.
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I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!
I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.
So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.
God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.
Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?
I seriously doubt that.
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Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?
I seriously doubt that.
Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.
He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around 6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 1130 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.
He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).
You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!
I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.
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Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.
He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around 6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 1130 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.
He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).
You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!
I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.
Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.
And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...
Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!
Cam we stick to the theme, please?
Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?
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Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.
And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...
Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!
Cam we stick to the theme, please?
Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?
Is that the theme? In either case, if we take 4153...we can recognise God's signs objectively, the quran being one of them. The quran being a message to mankind (1452) and thus universal insofar as humanity goes. Not sure what objectively thru the scripture implies.
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We have inspired (awaynā you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired (waiya) to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
Then we inspired (awaynā you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
This is the Rashad Khalifa translation, he uses the word Inspired, many other translations use inspired and some also use revealed.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/163/default.htmI don't know Arabic that well, so i can't translate the word, but in English there is quite a big difference between Inspired and revealed, the revealed word of God would be Gods literal word, whereas the inspired word of God would be Gods word through a prophets way of speaking and perspective. So there is a big difference, I'm curious to know which is an accurate translation.
If it is inspired, then it would surely explain what seems to be scientific errors, as it would be from Muhammads perspective.
Just food for thought. -
More childishness.
I don't know. The difference between me and you is I claim not to know and you claim to know it is from God.
so when you cannot defend your statements/positions then you resort to name calling and put downs. typical.
no faithful-jinn, i don't claim to know as you claim. read my previous posts. none of us KNOW except the arrogant. I BELIEVE in God and his scriptures taking the Koran as my source of guidance BELIEVING it is the word of God.
again, what exactly is your point here? of course, you won't address the questions being asked. instead you go on an attack and you have people like yourself joining in. i think bigmo was right, just a waste of time.
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We have inspired (awaynā you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired (waiya) to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
Then we inspired (awaynā you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
This is the Rashad Khalifa translation, he uses the word Inspired, many other translations use inspired and some also use revealed.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/163/default.htmI don't know Arabic that well, so i can't translate the word, but in English there is quite a big difference between Inspired and revealed, the revealed word of God would be Gods literal word, whereas the inspired word of God would be Gods word through a prophets way of speaking and perspective. So there is a big difference, I'm curious to know which is an accurate translation.
If it is inspired, then it would surely explain what seems to be scientific errors, as it would be from Muhammads perspective.
Just food for thought.If we take 4251 and bring in 6943 (which has a word denoting a staged/progressive revelation if you will)...then it appears to be a literal word by word. If inspired in the english sense, you'd have people waxing lyrical which might include errors and apparently God is being particularly detail conscious here. 5233 for example, if you're inspired by a kernel of truth e.g. and run with it, can you say the whole is the truth? I don't think so. One could well have made up some stuff in homage to the kernel which is not the idea presented by the verses.
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These verses do NOT come from a perfect God and therefore I must reject the revelation's claim to divinity.
It truly pains me to say that I must now as a seeker of truth, renounce my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an this day.
ok faithful-jinn, it is you who started this thread by renouncing your faith rejecting the Koran by making the statement the 'verses do NOT come from a perfect God".
and now you are claiming that you do not know if the Koran is from God. hmmm..... can you state clearly what your position is? 'don't know" if the koran is from God is different than declaring the koran is not from God.
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ok faithful-jinn, it is you who started this thread by renouncing your faith rejecting the Koran by making the statement the 'verses do NOT come from a perfect God".
and now you are claiming that you do not know if the Koran is from God. hmmm..... can you state clearly what your position is? 'don't know" if the koran is from God is different than declaring the koran is not from God.
Okay let me clarify. I don't believe the Qur'an is the direct word of God anymore but I can neither confirm nor deny if some type of God does exist.
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Do you believe "Qoran" is the word of GOD? How can you choose what suits you then?
Where does it say in the Quran that it's the Word Of God? (Kalamullah)
Show me if you're truthful!It's again a legacy from "Medieval Scholars" where they're debating whether "Quran is created or not"..
And of course Quran is created.. and it's written by human, using human language.. it's as simple as that..
It's not holy at all....Qoran does not have contradictions. GOD s commands are a sacred duty!. If you follow your conscience, then your conscience is your "idol". We must follow GOD Alone.
Where does it say in Quran or Gospel or Torah or Tao Te Ching or other books which (some) human considered to be holy that "You should not follow your conscience"??????
ON CONTRARY..
Within some books in the bible bundle there are description that God DOES talk through our conscience!
And so does in the Quran... people who often ignored his/her own conscience is said to have 'a disease in their own heart'..And so far my conscience proved to be better than any others..
And the best part is my conscience never declare itself to be holy!!People who do evil, know very well that they're doing bad deed.. as their conscience told them so...
Yet due to some reasons (greed,hatred,envy,ambition and others) they choose to disregard their own conscience... if they continue to ignore their own conscience, then it will grow darker and darker and darker..As Quran said it best
"Those who do bad deed do it for their own souls and those who do good deed do it for their own soul"...Try It!
Pick any poor beggar on the street, strike him up with a baseball stick or whatever.. or if that's too brutal, steal his money! or mug him! If your conscience are still healthy you'll feel bad of what you did AND you do recognize that what you did is evil! Without consulting any 'holy books' or 'priest'!Salam / Peace
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If we take 4251 and bring in 6943 (which has a word denoting a staged/progressive revelation if you will)...then it appears to be a literal word by word. If inspired in the english sense, you'd have people waxing lyrical which might include errors and apparently God is being particularly detail conscious here. 5233 for example, if you're inspired by a kernel of truth e.g. and run with it, can you say the whole is the truth? I don't think so. One could well have made up some stuff in homage to the kernel which is not the idea presented by the verses.
Well, firstly i had to look up the definition of kernel -[
But yes, i agree with you, and i do believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God, although i do believe it's presented a form most understandable to the average man, not space age man, no doubt society will regress back from our current knowledge but we will still have the Qur'an.I was mostly hoping that my post would at least satisfy Faithful Jinn, surely it's far better to believe it is the inspired word of God then reject it entirely? It seems he has completely overlooked that option, although i haven't read all the replies in this thread.
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Try It!
Pick any poor beggar on the street, strike him up with a baseball stick or whatever.. or if that's too brutal, steal his money! or mug him! If your conscience are still healthy you'll feel bad of what you did AND you do recognize that what you did is evil! Without consulting any 'holy books' or 'priest'!Salam / Peace
what if you have no conscience? people do things thinking they can get away and some even find amusement in hurting others. if there was no God and holy book talking about judgment day then what about these folks? no accountability?
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Okay let me clarify. I don't believe the Qur'an is the direct word of God anymore but I can neither confirm nor deny if some type of God does exist.
so you are an agnostic then? what would be your basis to confirm or deny God's existence? how do you suppose you would go about doing that? how do you know that God exists in the first place? doesn't confirming or denying existence entail having knowledge.