I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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Well yeah exactly. Confirming or denying entails having knowledge.
That's why I said I can do neither of those things.
exactly! you cannot confirm or deny existence of God. no one can. we are human beings. we are limited. you can never, ever understand some things and certainly not everything. questions that you will never get answered. do you even understand your own brain? how much do you really know about your brain and understand it? accept that you will never understand God. possibly understand God.
either we believe in God or don't or not be sure. you choose. you need to decide for yourself. now, when it comes to the koran - again do your search for the truth. is it word of God or not? can some of it be from God and some not being corrupted by men? why do you think some are truths and some not? what leads you to reject some and accept others? how do you decide ok this is from God and this one, man wrote it?
absolutely i have issues with somethings said in the koran and have wondered about it. when i read the verse about believing in some and not others. i said ok - either i believe in the entire thing or reject the whole thing. when i read verses saying that God knows things that i don't, the unknown. i said ok - why stress my brain cells as i will never know or comprehend, understand. and frankly, i really don't need to.
it is good enough for me to believe in God, the last day, and doing good deeds. living a moral life. keep life simple. now, do i really need the koran for that? no, i don't. i refer to the koran using it as a guidance in my life. hey, works for me.
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Thank you @donnyw!
And thank you @savage_carrot for your involvement in this thread, I read many of your posts and respect very much your reasoning and thinking.
I am always willing to learn, the whole R. Khalifa's idea and message gave me peace, as the most coherent and outstanding compact modern theology for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In fact, thanks to his websites, I eventually accepted the Quran and Islam, which I would never done otherwise, due to appalling overall image traditional Islam has.
Now, could you please enlighten me about taking it wrongly?
Thank you
Just explained it above, it's giving us the wrong idea that it's designed for only the righteous/reverent etc...they may come to it and understand/heed the message but the message is for humanity at large. Why humanity at large would choose not to heed/understand the quran is not in the design of the quran but in themselves. So, while one can say the quran would be understood/heeded/a source of guidance for the righteous, it's not the same thing as saying the quran is only designed for such/select few.
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I disagree because if you take it as only a few people will take guidance/heed (meaning a minority out of a majority), it's entirely different from the quran being for mankind. So, I would correct it's for mankind but only some will understand it as guidance/heed it. It isn't only designed to save some people, only some people will choose to be saved by it. It's designed for mankind, not some people. Nothing can save everyone unless force is involved.
You have some interesting point there. More or less we have similar view I think, but there are some differences I can see.
I dont see that Quran is intended to save everyone for sure, with or without major force, majority wont believe and still be unbelievers. This is a fact told in Quran. The only thing can change them if only God wish, but God decide to leave them their way, so this is not going to happen (again).
I said again, this is because from Quran we knew God actually has pardoned us all once before once due to His Mercy, all single human without exclusion has received His forgiveness before and given second chance now in this earth. And everyone of us had bear witness that no god beside God before we sent down to earth. So we can't say that we never been guided. Indeed all human has received some guidance before, every single of us no matter he is now believer or unbeliever or atheist, agnostic etc.
So Quran (and other previous scriptures) are another guidance sent to us but this time on earth, so God never leaves human without a guidance or a clue at all time. Anyhow this time the guidance must be seek, instead this time is a real test, which separating real believers and unbelievers. So God do not expect the majority to follow the guidance in Quran, instead God sent it as a test to see who the believers are. And God fully knows who they are even before all this started, we are going through living in earth here just because all need to go through a test which all recorded, and this record contain our final standing which will be bring to court on judgement day, so nobody can object anything anymore because there is record, but God knows the result of all these beforehand.
So, with this knowledge, majority of people will go to hell despite warning from scripture and all effort to change them, and in fact the opposite, those unbelievers are made as sample and lesson for those who wish to read/follow Quran. They are just condemned, instead God mocked them in Quran, they will never be guided because their own rejection, not because God doesn't provide guidance.
The God's grand plan in this earth is not to save humanity, something most people thought it is, indeed most human will be banished forever in hell as told by Quran. So the grand plan is just to filter out and collect prove (record) to be brought on judgement day for each individual stand, what is his final decision on God, whether still putting doubt on Him or repent and accept Him completely.
The final result of this earth living, is the minority of believers which God wish to get the result out of this grand plan.So my opinion about Quran, I can see Quran is guidance who can witnessed by all humanity, but it is a beacon only for the muttaqin, the real reason why this earth created in fist place.
That is how I see Quran position, correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace...
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I dont see that Quran is intended to save everyone for sure, with or without major force, majority wont believe and still be unbelievers. This is a fact told in Quran. The only thing can change them if only God wish, but God decide to leave them their way, so this is not going to happen (again).
The quran is a guide, people have to save themselves. The thing about God changing them is imo, starting from their desire/efforts to seek help/change. I'm not sure about with/without major force as in my view from the reading...there can be/is no force. All we have is free choice in various specific settings (our lives).So Quran (and other previous scriptures) are another guidance sent to us but this time on earth, so God never leaves human without a guidance or a clue at all time. Anyhow this time the guidance must be seek, instead this time is a real test, which separating real believers and unbelievers. So God do not expect the majority to follow the guidance in Quran, instead God sent it as a test to see who the believers are. And God fully knows who they are even before all this started, we are going through living in earth here just because all need to go through a test which all recorded, and this record contain our final standing which will be bring to court on judgement day, so nobody can object anything anymore because there is record, but God knows the result of all these beforehand.
I agree, I think that the test is for us to differentiate/grow/recognise truth etc.So, with this knowledge, majority of people will go to hell despite warning from scripture and all effort to change them, and in fact the opposite, those unbelievers are made as sample and lesson for those who wish to read/follow Quran. They are just condemned, instead God mocked them in Quran, they will never be guided because their own rejection, not because God doesn't provide guidance.
Where I might disagree is 'all effort to change them'. It's for us to change ourselves. I also don't think the unbelievers are made as sample/lesson for those who wish to follow the quran, we can take their example but they are made just like us with free choice. Because God knows, doesn't mean we do and since we don't...our test is in our choices etc. Some would ask why did God create the unbelievers if He knew, and my response to that would be how would you create a system of free choice and non-force in regards to intelligent beings with the capacities we have so that everyone is a believer? One would need to force compliance one way or the other. It's a great rogue A.I sci-fi scenario And it goes on and on with more questions about why and the purpose which obviously you haven't brought up so I'll stop.The God's grand plan in this earth is not to save humanity, something most people thought it is, indeed most human will be banished forever in hell as told by Quran. So the grand plan is just to filter out and collect prove (record) to be brought on judgement day for each individual stand, what is his final decision on God, whether still putting doubt on Him or repent and accept Him completely.
The final result of this earth living, is the minority of believers which God wish to get the result out of this grand plan.
I would broadly agree that the purpose is not to save humanity. The purpose is for humanity to save itself. The why of it is interesting too. Lots of great discussions there.So my opinion about Quran, I can see Quran is guidance who can witnessed by all humanity, but it is a beacon only for the muttaqin, the real reason why this earth created in fist place.
That is how I see Quran position, correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace...
It's for humanity to take heed, but only the muttaqin will take heed. Two different thingsgood discussion, haven't revisited this topic in quite a while. peace.
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I sincerely and without any sarcasm in my tone hope that you find mental peace with the decision you have made. Overall I share BigMo's sentiments in this thread, I personally don't even care about people who choose not to believe, it is their business, nor do I care to entertain or ask about why they disbelieve but like I said initially I sincerely hope you find mental peace with the decision you have made.
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Again I have the impression that the main theme of this thread that @Faithful Jinn posed so well in the beginning, is not grasped.
It is whether the Quran is from God, as a manual for men how to live, the best instruction manual with laws, being from God, since God created men and knows exactly what it is all about, or it is not?
And, if it is direct word from God, and a message for all times and all humanity, how do we know it is so?
I am not sure about the answer to your last question but I will say we don't, we just either believe it is or we don't. And I choose to believe it is.
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As some of you may know I've been on the fence about whether or Islam is true or not.
My faith has seemed empty lately and at one point I even denounced the divinity of the Qur'an.
The more I look at the entire premise of the Abrahamic God the more ridiculous everything seems. Even the idea of hell seems almost absurd now. I used to love the idea that deniers of the Oneness of God would be tortured in the afterlife for their arrogance. Now not only does it seem absurd, but I feel arrogant for holding my prior beliefs.
The truth is it's far easier for me to believe in a God than not to. I personally don't really want to live in a world with no God. My favorite idea about God is that He is Absolute Justice. A world without true Justice just doesn't seem right to me at all. But now I just can't approach my faith with the same fervor.
I decided to try to shake my blasphemous thoughts and started doing salat again and reading the Qur'an. At the end of my salat I prayed to God for a revelation or for Him to reveal Himself to me yesterday afternoon. I prayed earnestly for Him to please reveal Himself or show me a sign and I would remain His humble servant.
Last night when I was pondering on the verses of the Qur'an, I thought about the universe and the big bang. About a singularity "exploding" to form the universe and how the universe expands. I envisioned a cosmic explosion and all the matter and energy spreading out into galaxies, nebulas, stars, etc.
I then thought about Judgment Day and the afterlife. I personally believe(d) that hell if it does exist, is only temporary. The Qur'an actually supports this interpretation. Anyway I imagine that in the afterlife we will all return to God. I envisioned God, AS that singularity that started the universe and in the afterlife every single human soul that was a part of God in the beginning would return to Him in the end. Those farthest from God would be in hell and those closest to Him would be in heaven. Eventually however everyone would attain some sort of nearness to Him and eventually become One.
I envisioned every soul as a piece of divine energy that was part of God and I saw the End of Time. It was the opposite of the big bang. I saw every single soul moving through space as a piece of celestial energy returning toward the Creator to once again become a singularity and return to Oneness.
When this happened it had been in the evening about 5 hours after I did my salat and I was in awe. I thanked God for revealing to me a piece of His divine plan and for answering my doubts. I knew He had answered my supplications for revelation and that He wouldn't let His servant fall into doubt and disbelief. I was amazed at how quickly He had answered my doubts and I felt rejuvenated. I was sure I had received revelation from the Divine.
But when I woke up this morning I asked was that really divine revelation or a product of my own mind? Can I trust my own mind to confirm the existence of God? When I first converted I held subjective experience in high regard. I didn't care about proof or logic I only cared about feelings. That ignorance, willful or not, is now gone and I can't believe with the same fervor I used to.
I thought I received revelation from God yesterday because God cared if I kept my faith or not and was making sure I still believed. I thought my prayer had promptly and decisively been answered and a few months ago this would have undeniably satisfied me.
But now that nagging skepticism just WON'T go away! It simply won't leave me and allow me to practice Islam in peace! Ramadan is in 3 days. I was excited for Ramadan this year but now I don't even know if I want to do it anymore.
I just don't know anymore!
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But now that nagging skepticism just WON'T go away! It simply won't leave me and allow me to practice Islam in peace! Ramadan is in 3 days. I was excited for Ramadan this year but now I don't even know if I want to do it anymore.
I just don't know anymore!
Brother.. it seems you are in the right direction but you just dont realize it, keep searching and never give up brother, God wants to see how hard your effort is and how sincere you are, eventually if you keep your searching Allah might help you shed the light, insyaAllah.
Many people at a time been in the same situation like you, I was there too, so I know.
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Hello @Faithful Jinn, here is an interesting and amusing lecture in which some of your ideas from your last post, and some of your new conclusions are developed. It is about oneness of God and our relationship with monotheism, and how do we fully develop our potentials.
If you have time watch it till the end.
Equally I recommend it to others as well, since it's both funny and inspiring sun
http//videos.shalomtv.com/video/joy-judaism-rabbi-david-aaron-dec-15-2007
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Can I trust my own mind to confirm the existence of God?
I was excited for Ramadan this year but now I don't even know if I want to do it anymore.
good luck with confirming the existence of God. when you do, please do come back from the dead and let us know....
don't know why everyone makes a big deal about ramadan. if you don't go without food/water from sunrise to sunset - what's the big deal? and is that what ramadan is all about in the first place?
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It's about submission, reflection, prayer, and purity as well. While Islam has many rituals, the rituals symbolize certain ideals.
Fasting is something all the prophets have done. The Qur'an confirms that Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad all fasted for 40 days at some point if I recall correctly.
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It's about submission, reflection, prayer, and purity as well. While Islam has many rituals, the rituals symbolize certain ideals.
Really? or is it that people have made Islam to have many rituals?
Fasting is something all the prophets have done. The Qur'an confirms that Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad all fasted for 40 days at some point if I recall correctly.
True fasting is mentioned in the Koran but going without food and water from sunrise to sunset for 40 days? hmmm......
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What is true fasting to you?
You think they went 40 days without food or water?
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I also did the Ramadan fast properly, last year, as taught by Masjid Tuscon website i.e. Dr. Rashad Khalifa.
This year I think I am not going to do it that traditional way, because I read some different opinions about both the calendar and Ramadan in this Forum. -\
Presently I am confused about that matter. Didn't even get to that level to think about the Hajj. ???
confused
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I also did the Ramadan fast properly, last year, as taught by Masjid Tuscon website i.e. Dr. Rashad Khalifa.
This year I think I am not going to do it that traditional way, because I read some different opinions about both the calendar and Ramadan in this Forum. -\
Presently I am confused about that matter. Didn't even get to that level to think about the Hajj. ???
confused
Selam GODsubmitter ),
I feel your thoughts, to be honest this will be my first time doing Ramazan. I did promise myself though that if i'm unbearably starving to death then i'll eat a small snack to keep my body physically alive LOL xD. And hajj? Well I recommend the pilgrimage/feast/debate discussion in the Hajj section of the website where Ayman and Wakas are posting some VERY good points ). It should be quite obviously though by reading the Quran and the chapter Al-Hajj that what is in Mecca does not meet Quranic requirements of hajj ). But thats another story for another day ).
Also @ faithful-jinn,
Firstly selam lol,
Secondly, sometimes I think the exact same way. I feel that I have some form of 'truth' revealed to me and my conscience is at peace and harmony with the rest of myself... To be perfectly honest? I would take it as a possible sign. That's some serious mind-concuction of the story of life if it wasn't atleast SOME form of revealed truth. Noone knows what will happen on JD except Allah... but I too have had the same thoughts... us being celestial energies floating through other parts of matter possibly in another dimension. But hey, knowledge is the key to unlocking the heart of the human mind no? Keep reading the Quran (the free-minds Quran or the Quran from OurBeacon.com as I find them translated well) ).
Hope you find peace within yourself Faithful-Jinn, I've been there and trust me, I also find it difficult sometimes, but talk/call-out to God ).
Peace ) peace
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What is true fasting to you?
You think they went 40 days without food or water?
fasting to me is what God said
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
Asad translated it as 'remaining conscious of God".
the next verse, states to fast certain number of days. Doesn't say 30 days, 40 days....
and God says if you find it difficult to fast then feed the needy. God makes it clear he wishes ease not hardship.And that's all there is to it. Just a few verses in the Koran where God talks about fasting and making it clear why he enjoined fasting. God doesn't make a big deal. Didn't make it a symbol or ritual or tradition as people have made it to be. God sure didn't say to be a muslim, you have to fast for 30 days in the month of Ramadan. God didn't say that fasting is a test of your faith or whatever.
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Fasting has a tendency to give you more energy to the mind, letting you feel more pure in mind and body, and lets you think more clearly and makes it easier to go 'deeper' into spiritual matters. At least for me, and after the first initial days when the body gets used to the change.
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When things get complicated, and we get confused, and frustrated... it's better to just relax, ask/pray for insight and understanding, and just wait... and not rush or push. Just leave everything. Also when we get frustrated and confused in trying to understand the quran... we should relax. Confusion arises from us being mixed up from all sorts of influences and faulty understanding. Truth is never causing confusion. There is no need to keep the quran as the foundation or center of one's faith or belief or whatever you call it. It's better to go inside yourself and pray to your creator, without preconceived ideas and conditions. Just ask for better understanding and to be shown the truth, whatever it may be. And we should ask to be able to handle it, and to love it. What's not to love about truth? We can return to the quran later, with better understanding. One should not underestimate the quran.
)
peace
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- Fasting has a tendency to give you more energy to the mind, letting you feel more pure in mind and body, and lets you think more clearly and makes it easier to go 'deeper' into spiritual matters. At least for me, and after the first initial days when the body gets used to the change.
going without food, gives me a headache. makes me tired. can't focus/concentrate. sure can't think straight. and physically, feel sick. not being able to fast can also lead one to feel humble, grateful and appreciative.
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I tend to agree with the great sage Maimonides (who wrote almost all his works in Arabic and knew Quran thru and thru) that God (Jews) created Christianity and Islam to bring low, primitive, illiterate people to the idea of God.
Is this dude for real?
Christianity and islam created for low, primitive, illiterate people?
I mean, seriously?
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Is this dude for real?
Christianity and islam created for low, primitive, illiterate people?
I mean, seriously?
I just realized it... perhaps it's true...
Christianity and Islam was created for low, primitive people BY another low, primitive people who were trying to take advantage of their naivety and ignorance rotfl rotfl
And Jesus didn't invented Christianity, it was a bunch of clerics who did that centuries after he died , in similar manner as Muhammad didn't invented Islam, it was a bunch of clerics who did that centuries after he died..
Salam / Peace