I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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As-Salaam Alaikum,
My brother I read a few post and I don't think this has been brought up.
If you look at Islam and the Qur'an from a Self-Knowledge perspective I think things would start to make sense to you. Contrary to popular belief, Allah is not a sole anthropomorphic diety suspended somewhere. Scripture says Man was created in (but more correct as) the image of Allah, meaning you yourself are a divinity, an avatar of Allah. Allah works through man, not for man, Allah's Will is manifested through man. Everything in creation is in Islam, only man has choice.
With this understanding you can go back to the Qur'an and understand the true gnosis it really is with this new understanding. You are an eternal being, always existed and always will. Terms like heaven and hellfire are just mindstates, Iblis is your carnal desires, the shaytans are the oppressive people of the earth, etc.
I myself started as a Christian, then converted to Sunnism. After really learning about it I started to have serious doubts about Islam, but I still was intrigued by the Qur'an because of its proofs and evidences, both scientifically and philosphically as stated before, and spiritually may I add. I started to study other forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam and then from there the Nation of Gods and Earths (Five Percenters), while I was also studying Gnosticism and Ancient Egypt. While I do not identify or associate myself with those groups, one major thing I learned from the Five Percenters is Knowledge of Self. Once I grasped that concept, my view on Islam and the Qur'an became concrete, especially after learning about the forged hadith which both the NOI and NGE also teach.
Just thought I bring up something that didn't get brought up yet and might have you thinking. Regardless of your descision you'll be fine brother, no one is going to lose their soul. It's an eternity of soul progression, if we didn't get something right this go around, we'll be incarnated right back here again until we do. One love.
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As-Salaam Alaikum,
My brother I read a few post and I don't think this has been brought up.
If you look at Islam and the Qur'an from a Self-Knowledge perspective I think things would start to make sense to you. Contrary to popular belief, Allah is not a sole anthropomorphic diety suspended somewhere. Scripture says Man was created in (but more correct as) the image of Allah, meaning you yourself are a divinity, an avatar of Allah. Allah works through man, not for man, Allah's Will is manifested through man. Everything in creation is in Islam, only man has choice.
With this understanding you can go back to the Qur'an and understand the true gnosis it really is with this new understanding. You are an eternal being, always existed and always will. Terms like heaven and hellfire are just mindstates, Iblis is your carnal desires, the shaytans are the oppressive people of the earth, etc.
I myself started as a Christian, then converted to Sunnism. After really learning about it I started to have serious doubts about Islam, but I still was intrigued by the Qur'an because of its proofs and evidences, both scientifically and philosphically as stated before, and spiritually may I add. I started to study other forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam and then from there the Nation of Gods and Earths (Five Percenters), while I was also studying Gnosticism and Ancient Egypt. While I do not identify or associate myself with those groups, one major thing I learned from the Five Percenters is Knowledge of Self. Once I grasped that concept, my view on Islam and the Qur'an became concrete, especially after learning about the forged hadith which both the NOI and NGE also teach.
Just thought I bring up something that didn't get brought up yet and might have you thinking. Regardless of your descision you'll be fine brother, no one is going to lose their soul. It's an eternity of soul progression, if we didn't get something right this go around, we'll be incarnated right back here again until we do. One love.
If everybody is left alone to form his opinions based on self-knowledge, and mankind is alone on this planet to create opinions about soul, spirit and invisible things, then there is no god who gave any scripture?
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Renouncing one's faith is the worst decision one can take in one's life. Just because we do not understand certain things, or because we don't like following God's rules. Whatever the reason, our very short existance on earth is not worth it. For anyone who isn't "dumb, deaf and blind", it's obvious that the earth, the universe and everything in it was created by God.
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Renouncing one's faith is the worst decision one can take in one's life. Just because we do not understand certain things, or because we don't like following God's rules. Whatever the reason, our very short existance on earth is not worth it. For anyone who isn't "dumb, deaf and blind", it's obvious that the earth, the universe and everything in it was created by God.
It's not about rules. It's about truth. I cannot stress enough that I care about TRUTH. It doesn't matter how much I do or don't want God to exist I am a seeker of truth not comforting feelings. I no longer believe it is true. I can't force myself to believe it, if God is real He can read my thoughts so pretending to believe won't mean anything.
I've simply come to a point of personal understanding after much thought, research, and analysis of the scripture and the premise of the Abrahamic faiths. The Qur'an could easily have come from man.
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Faithful Jinn,
I have been reading this thread, with interest. I think we all have questions about various things in the Qu'ran. I can completely respect your decision and the choice you have made. How can I say anything if you have done your own research. I may disagree, but I still respect what you have done, for your own beliefs. I wish you the best in your journey to the truth.
I have just two questions and I am interested in your response. You state it could have easily been written by man. When the Qu'ran was first recited (before it was compiled and written) do you think man could have produced palindromes orally on the fly? Not words but also sentences? Of course the most famous one I know is Rabbaka-fa-Kabbir.
The other question, I have always been fascinated with the science of Qu'ran on subjects man knew nothing about until much later (Embryology, Sensory characteristics of the skin, Geology, Oceanography and Astronomy) What is your take on this?
Thanks
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Faithful Jinn,
I have been reading this thread, with interest. I think we all have questions about various things in the Qu'ran. I can completely respect your decision and the choice you have made. How can I say anything if you have done your own research. I may disagree, but I still respect what you have done, for your own beliefs. I wish you the best in your journey to the truth.
I have just two questions and I am interested in your response. You state it could have easily been written by man. When the Qu'ran was first recited (before it was compiled and written) do you think man could have produced palindromes orally on the fly? Not words but also sentences? Of course the most famous one I know is Rabbaka-fa-Kabbir.
Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.
The other question, I have always been fascinated with the science of Qu'ran on subjects man knew nothing about until much later (Embryology, Sensory characteristics of the skin, Geology, Oceanography and Astronomy) What is your take on this?
Thanks
First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?
I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.
I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.
But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?
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Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.
First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?
I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.
I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.
But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?
Excellent! bravo bravo bravo
Thank you @Faithful Jinn -
Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.
First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?
I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.
I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.
But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?
I agree with your ideas Jinn.. glad im not the only quranist in this world that believes that about the Quran.. )
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Peace all.
What can I say?
26;225 Do you not see that their loyalty shifts according to the situation. (They are in!)?
2776 ? This Scripture ( Koran, the last testament) settles many issues for the children of Israel ( and all the other systems/ religions); Issues that they are still disputing.?
I say " believe in it or do not believe in it " I am not your guardian.
Peace.
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Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.
First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?
I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.
I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.
But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?
Spoken like the the devil himself
congradulations JinnPeace O0
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Peace all.
What can I say?
26;225 Do you not see that their loyalty shifts according to the situation. (They are in!)?
2776 ? This Scripture ( Koran, the last testament) settles many issues for the children of Israel ( and all the other systems/ religions); Issues that they are still disputing.?
I say " believe in it or do not believe in it " I am not your guardian.
Peace.
(red underlined by me)
Hey @good logic,
And how the Qur'an is going to settle so many issues and disputes among the children of Islam and issues that they are disputing, ha? ???
Or Quran didn't even predict that there are going to be so many Islamic sects and different opinions, let alone different translations of the Quran?...
Even on this Forum people seem not to be able to agree even on the most important issues! -
Spoken like the the devil himself
congradulations JinnPeace O0
himself?... speaking?...
Devil was invented by Xtians to boost their cult...
See "The Origin of Satan How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics" by Elaine Pagels.
http//www.amazon.com/The-Origin-Satan-Christians-Demonized/dp/0679731180And in Judaism, HaShatan is not even a noun! There is a concept of an "evil inclination" though, in everybody's (human) "heart".
So, what is your post expressing here, and how is it contributing to the thread, ha?
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Peace Godsubmitter.
Remember GOD Alone teaches/explains... HIS scripture.
Study it , submit to your creator,and find out for yourself.
Best of luck.
Peace. -
Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.
As-Salaam Alaikum,
It's not so much that Muhammad (pbuh) could rhyme well and had many palindromes that makes the Qur'an fascinating, it's the fact that this occured while still giving a message that makes sense and fits a mathmatical formula (19), all this while it wasn't written down but recited. Do you understand how hard something like that is? Try it in English, a language you can understand and see how hard it is, then imagine doing it in Arabic which would be harder since certain Arabic words have multiple meanings, etc. The Qur'an is for sure not a product of the human mind, but was channeled to the Prophet's (pbuh) spirit. Do you know about channeling? If so, then you can imagine how the Qur'an was revealed, atleast this is what I personally know from the things I've studied.
First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?
I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.
I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.
But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?
I would just like to point out that Plato and Aristotle learned all their knowledge from the Ancient Africans (Egyptians) in their spiritual mystery schools which both of these men were initates in, so I agree with you that the knowledge did exist, but it was only known by the initates, not the general populace. So if you want to throw words around like "plagerized", you would have to say the greeks plagerized from the Africans...but plagerizism really isn't the case, it's just knowledge and tradition that was passed down from one initate to the next. Muhammad (pbuh) himself was an initate, that is why the Qur'an contains this information. No other scripture during his time was talking about this knowledge, only the occult centers of learning had this knowledge.
If everybody is left alone to form his opinions based on self-knowledge, and mankind is alone on this planet to create opinions about soul, spirit and invisible things, then there is no god who gave any scripture?
As-Salaam Alaikum,
Sorry for the confusion, the way I worded my post may have caused misunderstanding of what I was saying. Yes, Allah does exist, but I was simply pointing out it's not in the way mainstream thought thinks. Allah is not a diety, but is rather a creative force that penitrates within and throughout creation (573) for sake of discussion I'll liken him to the Force from Star Wars except that unlike the Force in Star Wars, this Force is also concious of itself and it's creation. Also, this Force manifests it's Will through man who was created as it's image and caliph (230). This is why the angels were told to prostrate to Adam (pbuh), because Allah was within Adam (pbuh) (234, 5016). So the proper understanding of Allah is that Allah is the Force that created and sustains existance and Allah's will is seated within the hearts of men.
With this understanding, you should be able to see that revelation of the Qur'an came as a result of deep meditation within the Prophet (pbuh) and not just a product of the Prophet's (pbuh) or another humans mind. The Gnostics called this sort of revelation "gnosis", hence the Qur'an itself is a book of gnosis. It came from the divine within, the Self. This is what I mean by Self Knowledge, Self Knowledge is knowledge of God and creation, because the Self is Allah. Don't confuse this with the false self (the Ego), but the true Self, which is divine and contains the Ruh of Allah. There's a saying that the Prophet (pbuh) himself said "He who knows his Self knows his Lord", and this is what is meant by that saying. Self Knowledge is the teachings of the Mystery Schools and it's initates, hence why in Ancient KMT (Egypt) outside the Temple of Luxor it is written "Man know thyself".
I highly recommend everyone to study the spiritual system of Ancient KMT's mystery schools along with Gnosticism in order to fully understand the reality of Allah and the truth of Islam, for I know for a fact that Islam based on the QUR'AN ALONE and not the Jesuit authored hadith is simply the Ancient traditions and knowledge of the initiates passed down. When you study these mystery systems and then reread the Qur'an, it will open up an entire universe of new understanding of the scriptures.
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Salaam Faithful jinn,
I am deeply sorry to see that you have renounced your faith.
All I am asking you is a favor
On Tuesday, August 14, it will be the night of Decree in the USA where I live, the night the Quran was revealed. I will publish on my website (http//www.islamrevolution.org/), God willing, an article that will provide what I believe are final, incontrovertible proofs that the Quran is the word of God.
How many times have you heard something that looks too good to be true or in my case looks like a ridiculous claim, and that really happens to be true? It almost never happens. But this times, I insist, I proclaim that it will happen, If God allows me to post the article (actually there will be several, but one in particular will be overwhelming).
So this is the favor I am asking you, as well as all the people who have a doubt that the Quran is divinely coded mathematically.God bless you all.
Pierre
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Faithful Jinn,
Sorry it took me so long. I was speaking of the barriers salt vs. fresh water, the expansion of the universe, the seven different atmospheres. folding which formed the mountain ranges, how stars work, things not discovered until later.
I understand the stance on embryology. I just don't think it is a comparison, yes they had the assumptions, and many mistaken ideas. It was not until the microscope that things really were seen. Eggs and fertilization. I was not aware Muhammad has access to greek philosophies, it was not like the you could google it. Learning from others in those days was more in depth than today.
Perhaps I do underestimate the ancient civilizations. I understand they were smart in math and sciences, but they were still primitive compared to now.
I also still think the language and the syntax and palindromes is not an easy thing with languages. It is very hard to do, especially on the fly. Can you give me a sentence off the top of your hear without writing it down that means the same forwards and backwards and ties in to other sentences before and after? It is more than the Palindrome racecar.
But again thanks for the reply. As stated before, I respect your decision. Take care
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Faithful Jinn,
Sorry it took me so long. I was speaking of the barriers salt vs. fresh water, the expansion of the universe, the seven different atmospheres. folding which formed the mountain ranges, how stars work, things not discovered until later.
I understand the stance on embryology. I just don't think it is a comparison, yes they had the assumptions, and many mistaken ideas. It was not until the microscope that things really were seen. Eggs and fertilization. I was not aware Muhammad has access to greek philosophies, it was not like the you could google it. Learning from others in those days was more in depth than today.
Perhaps I do underestimate the ancient civilizations. I understand they were smart in math and sciences, but they were still primitive compared to now.
I also still think the language and the syntax and palindromes is not an easy thing with languages. It is very hard to do, especially on the fly. Can you give me a sentence off the top of your hear without writing it down that means the same forwards and backwards and ties in to other sentences before and after? It is more than the Palindrome racecar.
But again thanks for the reply. As stated before, I respect your decision. Take care
I cannot do it on the fly and I doubt Muhammad did it on the fly either. The Qur'an took 22 years to reveal and compile and it wasn't like he was freestyle rapping the verses whenever someone asked him.
I repeat something like syntax and palindromes is is no way proof of God nor is any apparent "beauty". What would be amazing is if God had the Qur'an retain all its linguistic features in every single language known to man. Surely a minor feat for an omnipotent being. But even then I'd still be skeptical as that is not my only issue so the language of the Qur'an is besides the point.
As for your points about the scientific claims and human knowledge that lead people to believe that the Qur'an is divine, I say that this too is false for 2 reasons.
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The verses of the Qur'an are so vague and ambiguous in many places that I'm sure they can be interpreted and reinterpreted to conform to a lot of scientific ideas. I'm sure if we found out that the sun went around the earth today and that humans descended from birds, that some clever Muslims would find new interpretations of the Qur'an to support the ideas and use it as dawah.
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The mere possibility that other humans had this knowledge prior to Muhammad's lifetime sort of takes away the impact of it. Muslims make the claim that NO HUMAN BEING could possibly have known anything the Qur'an claims but I've given the greek example of embryology and I believe if I really dig into it, I can make an argument for other claims. Even the Hindu Rig Veda which precedes the Qur'an by at least a millennium has a creation cosmology that can be interpreted to conform to the Big Bang theory.
When I look at a lot of these claims now from a non-religious perspective I can see how this stuff could easily have come from mankind. The religious perspective however forces people into confirmation bias however, in which every single insignificant thing somehow points to God because subconsciously they are looking only to confirm their current beliefs.
But like I said there are many many issues I have not just science or linguistics.
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