I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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Whatever God says in Qur'an is true, you just didn't open your mind entirely to it,
Have you ever once considered that the Qur'an might not be true?
How do you distinguish between the truth of one scripture and the truth of another?
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I'll skip the rest of your post because this portion is the crux of your argument. This is where you make a claim about your beliefs the rest is just personal opinion
i'm open to the signs of Allah SWT in His words, in His Kingdom, in His Grace, in all positive aspect.
i don't understand how this be categorised as deaf, dumb, and blind?
what reason is there for it to crumble?Okay you say you are open to the signs of Allah in His words, His Kingdom, and His Grace.
This is my point here. You are only open to the signs that point toward Allah or confirm a preconceived notion you already hold. You are open only to the idea of Allah even if that idea is not truthful or real. If something in your life were to present itself to you that challenged the existence of Allah or the divinity of the Qur'an you would likely NOT be open to it.
Nowhere in your post do you say you are open to all possibilities. This is EXACTLY what I meant in my previous post about how a Christian will almost never accept the Qur'an as the word of God because they think they already have truth. Anything else you present them with is dismissed as falsehood because there can only be one truth.
In the same way, you have just shown me your thinking process in that to you Allah and Qur'an is truth and all other things are falsehood. You see life through a lens that confirms your beliefs and all other things must conform to that belief.
I am open to the possibility that some type of God exists and I am also open to the possibility that no gods exist at all. I care more about truth than anything so I'm willing to remain open to both possibilities.
You and all other theists on the other hand, believe that you already have the truth and thus you have no reason to open yourself up to any other answers. You have the answers already as a Muslim. This is what religion does. It gives you an answer. For a Muslim, Allah and the Qur'an is the answer. For a Christian, Jesus and the Bible are the answer.
Neither side will accept any possibility outside of their own.
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God could be a false belief but the Truth by very definition is real. The Truth isn't necessarily a deity or a god.
At the same time as you have some good reasoning, you must ALSO leave room for that the quran might be true. In the sincere search of truth, we never make up our mind in advance what the truth should be, include or not include. We must be TOTALLY open. In this case, perhaps the quran is true, but it is vastly mis-understood, and when you see it more for what it is, you may even start seeing that it is amazingly true and congruent with other things you have learnt and your inner feelings... and that people in general have no idea what the quran is all about.... why not? This COULD be the case. The point is that we should never assume ANYTHING about the truth. We should just desire it, and we should desire it for itself, just because it is the reality. We should never seek truth in order to prove something, get a good feeling, get peace, be right, prove someone wrong etc etc... we should seek it for its own sake... because it is true. Don't put limits on the truth. If we don't already think we have the full truth, then per definition, we are lacking some knowledge, so we don't know what it is we are missing... and that's why it is so dangerous to assume things about truth. Also, the journey towards truth is a PURELY personal journey. It is an unconditional journey towards greater maturity and insight. It has nothing to do with others and what they believe, and it has nothing to do with teaching others the truth. You can however help people in the right direction, but everyone has to walk the path themselves. Truth cannot be spoon fed. Truth is not a package. People make a great mistake by thinking that truth is just a set of facts or information. Although this is true in one sense, it rather has much more to do with our selves, our understanding, our maturity, sensibility and ability to grasp the reality. We have to see it from the right angle or direction Truth is not about finding the correct information... but it is to BE ABLE to SEE the truth which is ALL THE TIME available around and within us. This is why people will never agree on anything as long as they launch their minds into logical battles over facts, figures and all sorts of data... people will just end up guessing. We can never have to total view of reality. Each mind is like a world onto its own... so naturally people would disagree about most things, especially religion which is a subject with terms and concepts that are highly UN-defined. There must be as many concepts of God/Alla/creator/brahman/universal consciousness etc as there are human beings.
We can desire truth, but we cannot limit, shape or dictate it.
When we desire truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then we are led to it, closer and closer. But we have to be vigilant and brutally honest to ourselves so that we don't fool ourselves, because we have a tendency to see and find what we want to find. This is the tricky part. In the end, we seek truth for ourselves; we don't do it for someone else. Let us not let our minds fool us. Our minds are full of conscious and subconscious programming and conditioning. We should strive to be aware of these things also, so that they won't snare us and lead us astray, while we think we are looking for the truth, when we are actually just looking to strengthen our own case, our own subjective ideas about what reality should be like. Don't underestimate your mind.This is the trap that religion sets. A Christian will almost NEVER accept Islam because they already have accepted Jesus and his resurrection as payment for their sins as truth. You cannot show a Christian the Qur'an and expect them to think about anything because in their own mind, they already know the truth and everything else is falsehood.
Much in the same way, you as a Muslim cannot accept any possibilities outside of your own beliefs as possibly containing truth.
EXACTLY! sun Very well said!
Yes, very true... and this goes for all ideas, not just religion bytheway
Have you ever once considered that the Qur'an might not be true?
We should allow for this possibility, while not favoring either for or against. This is hard. But, if the quran turnes out to be false (not from the creating intelligent force of everything/Allah), then that is good... because it is true. And if the quran turns out to be true, then that is also good, coz it is true.
We must let go of the FEAR of the possibility that the quran is false, and of the possibility that the quran is true. Fear resists truth, in any direction. Fear is created by the mind, our dear mind.cheers
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At the same time as you have some good reasoning, you must ALSO leave room for that the quran might be true. In the sincere search of truth, we never make up our mind in advance what the truth should be, include or not include. We must be TOTALLY open. In this case, perhaps the quran is true, but it is vastly mis-understood, and when you see it more for what it is, you may even start seeing that it is amazingly true and congruent with other things you have learnt and your inner feelings... and that people in general have no idea what the quran is all about.... why not? This COULD be the case. The point is that we should never assume ANYTHING about the truth.
This is exactly what religion does. It makes people assume they know the truth because they have some holy book in their possession. Religion is what closes off the mind to being TOTALLY open. A Muslim is not open to the idea of polytheism or belief that God came down to earth in the form of a man to sacrifice himself for our sins. A Muslim is not open to the idea of no God or that prophets weren't getting their words from a divine source. To call oneself a Muslim you are making claims about reality that TOTALLY eliminate other possibilities.
We should just desire it, and we should desire it for itself, just because it is the reality. We should never seek truth in order to prove something, get a good feeling, get peace, be right, prove someone wrong etc etc... we should seek it for its own sake... because it is true. Don't put limits on the truth. If we don't already think we have the full truth, then per definition, we are lacking some knowledge, so we don't know what it is we are missing... and that's why it is so dangerous to assume things about truth. Also, the journey towards truth is a PURELY personal journey. It is an unconditional journey towards greater maturity and insight. It has nothing to do with others and what they believe, and it has nothing to do with teaching others the truth. You can however help people in the right direction, but everyone has to walk the path themselves. Truth cannot be spoon fed. Truth is not a package. People make a great mistake by thinking that truth is just a set of facts or information. Although this is true in one sense, it rather has much more to do with our selves, our understanding, our maturity, sensibility and ability to grasp the reality. We have to see it from the right angle or direction Truth is not about finding the correct information... but it is to BE ABLE to SEE the truth which is ALL THE TIME available around and within us. This is why people will never agree on anything as long as they launch their minds into logical battles over facts, figures and all sorts of data... people will just end up guessing. We can never have to total view of reality. Each mind is like a world onto its own... so naturally people would disagree about most things, especially religion which is a subject with terms and concepts that are highly UN-defined. There must be as many concepts of God/Alla/creator/brahman/universal consciousness etc as there are human beings.
We can desire truth, but we cannot limit, shape or dictate it.
When we desire truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then we are led to it, closer and closer. But we have to be vigilant and brutally honest to ourselves so that we don't fool ourselves, because we have a tendency to see and find what we want to find. This is the tricky part. In the end, we seek truth for ourselves; we don't do it for someone else. Let us not let our minds fool us. Our minds are full of conscious and subconscious programming and conditioning. We should strive to be aware of these things also, so that they won't snare us and lead us astray, while we think we are looking for the truth, when we are actually just looking to strengthen our own case, our own subjective ideas about what reality should be like. Don't underestimate your mind.I agree with not letting my mind fool me or underestimating my mind. This is something I used to do as a Muslim when I thought I was "experiencing God" or "seeing God's signs".
We should allow for this possibility, while not favoring either for or against. This is hard.
You say this but I assume your a Muslim? Which means your belief is making the claim that God is real and then an even bigger leap that the Qur'an is the direct and infallible word of your God.
But, if the quran turnes out to be false (not from the creating intelligent force of everything/Allah), then that is good... because it is true. And if the quran turns out to be true, then that is also good, coz it is true.
We must let go of the FEAR of the possibility that the quran is false, and of the possibility that the quran is true. Fear resists truth, in any direction. Fear is created by the mind, our dear mind.cheers
The whole thing about fear you're writing is just your personal opinion. Fear is created by the mind and so is belief.
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Have you ever once considered that the Qur'an might not be true?
How do you distinguish between the truth of one scripture and the truth of another?
Yes, I have and then I prayed for forgiveness.
Depends on what scriptures I compare. I mostly rely on logic and common sense.
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Yes, I have and then I prayed for forgiveness.
So how did you get to a conclusion that led you to pray for forgiveness?
Depends on what scriptures I compare. I mostly rely on logic and common sense.
What scriptures have you read?
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I'll skip the rest of your post because this portion is the crux of your argument. This is where you make a claim about your beliefs the rest is just personal opinion
Okay you say you are open to the signs of Allah in His words, His Kingdom, and His Grace.
This is my point here. You are only open to the signs that point toward Allah or confirm a preconceived notion you already hold. You are open only to the idea of Allah even if that idea is not truthful or real. If something in your life were to present itself to you that challenged the existence of Allah or the divinity of the Qur'an you would likely NOT be open to it.
Nowhere in your post do you say you are open to all possibilities. This is EXACTLY what I meant in my previous post about how a Christian will almost never accept the Qur'an as the word of God because they think they already have truth. Anything else you present them with is dismissed as falsehood because there can only be one truth.
In the same way, you have just shown me your thinking process in that to you Allah and Qur'an is truth and all other things are falsehood. You see life through a lens that confirms your beliefs and all other things must conform to that belief.
I am open to the possibility that some type of God exists and I am also open to the possibility that no gods exist at all. I care more about truth than anything so I'm willing to remain open to both possibilities.
You and all other theists on the other hand, believe that you already have the truth and thus you have no reason to open yourself up to any other answers. You have the answers already as a Muslim. This is what religion does. It gives you an answer. For a Muslim, Allah and the Qur'an is the answer. For a Christian, Jesus and the Bible are the answer.
Neither side will accept any possibility outside of their own.
umm well, yes
i'm only open to the truth from the perspective of Allah SWT
and so far it hasn't been incorrect and contradicting what i see from the signs of Allah in His kaun/world construct/environment
it's an old scripture that is still consistent on how i see the kaun around me
so i should have a good consistent life if i'd hang on to it
i won't be at a complete loss when compare to only relying on my instinct
as my instinct can tempt me to things that i might deem "correct" when it's absolutely incorrect
other than that for a platform that is acceptable between other people
i wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel or strugle harder to make a point when i have a guiding book established and well rootedi think the best are those who sift out inconsistencies and follow the consistent part
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umm well, yes
i'm only open to the truth from the perspective of Allah SWT
and so far it hasn't been incorrect and contradicting what i see from the signs of Allah in His kaun/world construct/environment
it's an old scripture that is still consistent on how i see the kaun around me
so i should have a good consistent life if i'd hang on to itYou do know that every human being that has believed in a religion has thought the same thing right? That is how religion began in the first place! Mankind has a natural tendency to rationalize the world around him and try to influence that world. This is the basis of religion.
The ancient Aztecs used to think that if they didn't sacrifice a beating human heart to their gods on a regular basis that the sun would fail to rise the next day! So on a regular basis they would select one of their people, have the priests take them to the altar/temple/pyramid and they would brutally cut out their heart while they were still alive and offer it to their gods.
They continued to do this and the sun continued to rise. It was a perfectly good and consistent life and it was consistent with how they saw the world around them. Didn't make it true.
i won't be at a complete loss when compare to only relying on my instinct
as my instinct can tempt me to things that i might deem "correct" when it's absolutely incorrectWell that's because your basis of morality is based on the Qur'an. Your God doesn't think you know what right and wrong are and so he gives you law to follow. Nothing you think can be correct or incorrect it is all up to the Qur'an to think for you.
You must think then that it is "correct" to own slaves and have sex with female war captives. Also you must think it was "correct" for a grown adult to marry a 6 year old child and marry her at age 9.
other than that for a platform that is acceptable between other people
i wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel or strugle harder to make a point when i have a guiding book established and well rootedSo you like the fact that there is an established guide and you don't have to struggle to come up with your own morals or concepts of right and wrong?
i think the best are those who sift out inconsistencies and follow the consistent part
If the Qur'an is direct from God how can it be inconsistent?!
Surely if it is the direct word of God you must accept and follow every single letter as perfect and unchangeable wisdom for humanity.
How do you decide which part is consistent and which part is inconsistent?
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Peace Faithful-Jinn.
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-You must think then that it is "correct" to own slaves and have sex with female war captives. Also you must think it was "correct" for a grown adult to marry a 6 year old child and marry her at age 9.Show where these are in Qoran? Quote the verses
Peace.
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I see you chose to ignore the rest of my points. Why is that?
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
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-You must think then that it is "correct" to own slaves and have sex with female war captives. Also you must think it was "correct" for a grown adult to marry a 6 year old child and marry her at age 9.Show where these are in Qoran? Quote the verses
Peace.
Sahih International Translation
O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to marry her, only for you, excluding the believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (3350)
Clearly we can see here that female war captives are lawful for sex.
I don't have a Qur'an verse to affirm the prophet's marriage to Aisha and her consummation but hadith can be recognized as historical documents if not as divine documents. Of course I'm sure as a Qur'an alone Muslim you will flat out deny anything to besmirch the character of your prophet so I won't even get into that and instead I'll focus on the sex with with female war captives.
In addition I also find it amusing that the Prophet receives special privileges in marriage rights excluding the other believers.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Sex with anyone is forbidden unless you are married to them. The prophet was allowed to marry from the list. ( Note the list does not mention 6 or 9 year old?)
Peace.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Sex with anyone is forbidden unless you are married to them.
Incorrect. You could have sex with those whom your right hands possess. There's even another verse explicitly telling you that you can have sex with a woman who is not married to you as long as she is your slave.
Yusuf Ali
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (424)The prophet was allowed to marry from the list. ( Note the list does not mention 6 or 9 year old?)
Peace.
You do know the Prophet did many things not detailed in the Qur'an right? Historical evidence suggests that Prophet's marriage to Aisha was began at the age of 6 and consummated at the age of 9.
Though like I said in my previous post I'm sure you will disregard anything not in the Qur'an and ignore this information.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn.
In that particular verse " What your right hand possess" means the one/s you are will marry. It does say " providing you seek them in marriage,"
You are right I do not comment on other sources.
Peace.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn.
In that particular verse " What your right hand possess" means the one/s you are will marry. It does say " providing you seek them in marriage,"
You are right I do not comment on other sources.
Peace.
What your right hands possess does not mean the ones you will marry. It does not mean that in any other place in the Qur'an nor does it mean that here.
Those whom your right hands possess refers to slaves in every occurrence of the Qur'an and to suggest otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest and willfully ignorant.
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess
Prohibited to you are women already married, EXCEPT for those whom your right hands possess! It could not be any more clear. And if you had the intellectually honesty to look at Islamic history and the history of Muhammad's own lifetime you would see that this is how the verse was interpreted.
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Furthermore, you contradict yourself with your own explanations.
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Sex with anyone is forbidden unless you are married to them.
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
In that particular verse " What your right hand possess" means the one/s you are will marry.
First you said all sex outside of marriage is unlawful which is false. I then provided a clear verse from the Qur'an showing this falsehood. You then say that sex is lawful if you are going to marry that person which is also false.
If you WILL get married to someone you aren't actually married yet which would make any sexual relations unlawful.
Otherwise premarital sex with your girlfriend or fiance' would all be lawful as long as you plan on marrying them.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn.
I will clarify again what I said. Sex is lawful so long as you are married to each other
There are numerous definitions of " marriage" depending of what tradition/people/part of the world.... you belong.
The verse you provided does not allow sex outside marriage.
Peace.
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Incorrect. You could have sex with those whom your right hands possess. There's even another verse explicitly telling you that you can have sex with a woman who is not married to you as long as she is your slave.
Yusuf Ali
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (424)
You do know the Prophet did many things not detailed in the Qur'an right? Historical evidence suggests that Prophet's marriage to Aisha was began at the age of 6 and consummated at the age of 9.Though like I said in my previous post I'm sure you will disregard anything not in the Qur'an and ignore this information.
Salaam,
Do you remember when you got offended after I said that we all are still infected with hadith understanding, you replied with this
When did I ever say I use the sunnah or hadith to understand the Qur'an?! I've always been an outright opponent of hadith literature and the idolatry of the Sunnah. Why else do you think I've been a member of this for years? What an insane and inaccurate assumption about me...
Are you now using hadiths as historical evidence about an age? And hadiths to claim Quran allows sex with slaves ??? ?
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
I will clarify again what I said. Sex is lawful so long as you are married to each other
There are numerous definitions of " marriage" depending of what tradition/people/part of the world.... you belong.
The verse you provided does not allow sex outside marriage.
Peace
Where is the evidence? Verses?
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Peace nimnimak.
I will let you provide me with verses that say Otherwise.
Peace.