I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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What a contradiction! Without analyzing you are characterizing Pazuzu's post crap. Are you looking for the truth or arguing for winning? Can't you see , Pazuzu's analysis based solely on Quran? Seems to me , all the points put forth by you are from aetheist or islam hater's webpages , with the sole aim of puting doubts on Quran and Islam.
And Qur'an & Islam, if they are truth, should stand and endure those "doubts" and prove them inconsistent, showing their superior universal truth accessible to all as God intended His message to be to all humankind and all the jinns, shouldn't they?
Sometimes the debate here infantly looks like "my toys are better then your toys"
I do not know what the problem is, whether it's the Arabic language, or something else, but Islam today is in a horrible shape and the results of Muslims and their countries is deplorable everywhere, so it seems the Qur'an has failed in its universal message of transformation of men... ???
God bless sun
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No no, I don't think you accept all hadith as reasonable, that would be beyond madness. But my opinion is that when we find outlandish and insane lies in a piece of literature, then we ought to look at the rest with caution.
It may seem reasonable because it tells about things that were common in those days. But some text that narrates about for the time periods common events.. doesn't necessarily make the specifics accurate.
I agree with this statement.
Shallow is to only accept the mainstream "facts". (Not that I claim that you do)
I certainly do not think there's only one way of interpretation... reading and accepting at face value. That's what one should never do with anything. That's gullible and naive, as you would agree.
So I'm not sure where you got that from.Anyhow, I think we both agree largely on historical accounts and methods, but perhaps we have a different view about the existence of an intelligent creative force.. and on the quran... but that's ok. Let's all strive to improve our understandings.
Peace n cheers
Yes I guess we can agree.
I may have to let this thread die and create a new one focused on just the existence of a god or creator being.
Even when I lost faith in Qur'an I initially tried to retain faith in a creator god. Now though I doubt the existence of any type of god as well. I'll have to create a new thread about that.
Thank you Zulf. If there is a God though I highly doubt it is the God of the Qur'an. If your God is real I have no trouble standing before him on Judgment Day for if he is Ar-Rahim the Most Merciful he will surely forgive me for not believing in his irrational and unclear revelations which are highly vague and disputable for which He provided me no evidence.
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FJ,
I like your signature line.
I like it too! (it sounds quite Sufi to me...and I like that)
I also like @Faithful Jinn's way of debating in a calm, honest, sincere and civilized way with intelligent arguments.
I think God doesn't want blind, brainwashed followers shaped by a baseless faith... Why? Because He gave us the free will and freedom of choice, to test us!
The Qur'an itself states that when in doubt one should go and ask people of the Book!
I think it is always healthy to reread the Torah, since it is the very first Holy Scripture received directly from God witnessed by thousands of people! ) -
peace!
I do not know what the problem is, whether it's the Arabic language, or something else, but Islam today is in a horrible shape and the results of Muslims and their countries is deplorable everywhere, so it seems the Qur'an has failed in its universal message of transformation of men... ???
...or most or many people have failed in being open to Allah's guidance and thus failed at understanding the quran, and just made a mockery out of it by following conjecture and lies, and stopped thinking and using their common sense. Sheep mentality and closed minds don't lead to greatness and freedom. We should not expect the quran, or anything else, to solve humanity's problems. It's just a book with text. And there will never be a thing that will conclusively show the light to everyone. The responsibility is on each one of us to grow and gain understanding. We need to stop blaming the outside. We cannot blame Allah or some scripture for the failures of each one of us. This is a highly useless, dis-empowered victim mentality. As long as we expect something outside ourselves to solve our problems, they will never get solved. That's immaturity. Let's grow up and stop thinking like sulky children in adult bodies. This is not the case only with religion. It is a mindset within oneself which reflects in ALL aspects of one's life... and especially relationships I tend to think.
It's just a matter of perspective.
All the best!
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FJ,
Please forgive me if I am somehow discourteous by butting in here?
I am not a Qu'ranist nor is my knowledge of the Holy book deep or learned.
My experience of God comes through a different medium. If this is discounted here or by you I apologise for wasting your time or breaking forum etiquette.
It would seem that contrary to many claims that Qu'ranists are deeply influenced by a historical and cultural bias.
Many of the more mystical traditions (experiential as opposed to intellectual traditions if you will) would interpret what constitutes Allah, God etc whichever label we prefer in a very different sense The Dharmakaya of Buddhism or the consciousness that permeates the universe in Quantum physics.
Would it be worthwhile in looking at this through a different lens or from a different angle that may offer not just a fresh perspective but a means to read afresh the Qu'ran within a different paradigm?Just a small thought from someone who gained an unshakeable faith through many faiths.
Salaam Brother
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FJ,
Please forgive me if I am somehow discourteous by butting in here?
I am not a Qu'ranist nor is my knowledge of the Holy book deep or learned.
My experience of God comes through a different medium. If this is discounted here or by you I apologise for wasting your time or breaking forum etiquette.
It would seem that contrary to many claims that Qu'ranists are deeply influenced by a historical and cultural bias.
Many of the more mystical traditions (experiential as opposed to intellectual traditions if you will) would interpret what constitutes Allah, God etc whichever label we prefer in a very different sense The Dharmakaya of Buddhism or the consciousness that permeates the universe in Quantum physics.Quantum physics makes no scientific claim of any type of "consciousness" that permeates the universe.
Furthermore none of these beliefs like the one of the Dharmakaya of Buddhism or the universal mind called the Brahman of Hinduism have any type of evidence to support them. Like all religious claims they are unfounded and contain zero evidence.
Would it be worthwhile in looking at this through a different lens or from a different angle that may offer not just a fresh perspective but a means to read afresh the Qu'ran within a different paradigm?
Just a small thought from someone who gained an unshakeable faith through many faiths.
Salaam Brother
It is definitely a perspective I have explored and actually kind of embraced as I have always tended toward the pantheistic world view of the Sufis in which all paths lead to God who could also be known as the Universal Consciousness but I have no reason to believe that other than because I choose to believe it. It is just a baseless spiritual claim.
Do you have any evidence for why I should believe in a universal consciousness such as you're describing?
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FJ,
Firstly I am afraid that quite a few quantum physicists posit consciousness permeating the universe, a quantum mind if you will. I will be quite happy to offer sources if you think I am being less than honest.Secondly I was suggesting an experiential paradigm shift. That by utilising certain methodologies one can see the world in a very different way.
I see that you ask me for proof.....well if I were to offer proof it would be anecdotal. Of what use would that be to you?
If you do not see the merit in this fine, I am only relating what I have found to open up new vistas of enquiry and faith.
I have no axe to grind nor have I anything to prove.
I have found that certain forms of experiential enquiry can be very useful in how we see the universe and ourselves.
The paradigm shifts these elicit are often accompanied by 'eureka' moments where are deepening realisations can bring both understanding and faith (I mean faith based on experience and intellect)
Evidence for universal consciousness? As I am sure you are aware numerous scientists posit just that and listing them or their theories would be fruitless.
I was suggesting that this evidence based purely intellectual approach to God is fundamentally flawed.
If it has lead you to a spiritual dead end vis-a-vis a knowledge of the divine what would you lose by approaching it from a different angle.
Of course I fully understand that you may find such a suggestion silly, superstitious or illogical even.
However what does it matter if we appear silly, many superstitions have roots in fact and logic is a finite vessel.
I think I have overstepped the mark and made a suggestion that was not received well and this may lead to confusion over what I propose. If this is the case you have my sincere apologies.
I made the suggestion in good faith. From reading your posts I think you are a sincere and honest man and I had no intention of misleading.Salaam
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Well if these scientists are offering scientific data to support their claims of a universal consciousness I'd like to be aware of it.
In my very minute and mediocre reading about string theory, the big bang bang, and physics I have not heard this claim made by any scientists.
Like I said though it is a concept I have actually explored and used to even entertain and believe.
There is a Sufi saying that "There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth."
I used to believe our soul was akin to pure light energy and that when we died this energy would continue even if our flesh was destroyed. This energy would exist in a spectrum invisible and naked to the human eye and possibly in a dimension totally unknown to man, racing through the cosmos in its return to become One once again with the Universal Consciousness it was spawned from in the Big Bang. What I called Allah, the Hindus called Brahman, etc.
But even though it sounds nice, and transcendental, and universal, this belief is based on nothing substantial or reasonably convincing. There is as much evidence for this being true as there is that unicorns and fairies exist and rationally I now know that I have no valid reason to believe such a thing.
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Not only that but it goes against every single translation of the Qur'an I have.
This does not mean that Pazuzu,s translation is wrong. If there is one universal meaning or understanding of Quran , there would not have been so many different translations. Which translation is acceptable or accurate , you have to decide using your own reason.
Food for thought - Why every single translation of the Qur'an you have , are against Pazuzu,s translation ?
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This does not mean that Pazuzu,s translation is wrong. If there is one universal meaning or understanding of Quran , there would not have been so many different translations. Which translation is acceptable or accurate , you have to decide using your own reason.
If the it's up to individual reason then reason is subjective and every person has a right to interpret it in their own way. I'm not saying Pazuzu's translation is wrong but I have no reason to believe it is correct either.
Food for thought - Why every single translation of the Qur'an you have , are against Pazuzu,s translation ?
Because established Islamic scholars had a different opinion than that of Pazuzu?
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And Qur'an & Islam, if they are truth, should stand and endure those "doubts" and prove them inconsistent, showing their superior universal truth accessible to all as God intended His message to be to all humankind and all the jinns, shouldn't they?
Sometimes the debate here infantly looks like "my toys are better then your toys"
I do not know what the problem is, whether it's the Arabic language, or something else, but Islam today is in a horrible shape and the results of Muslims and their countries is deplorable everywhere, so it seems the Qur'an has failed in its universal message of transformation of men... ???
God bless sun
As far as I am aware , those 'doubts' are answered and proved inconsistent by many authors in different forums , but doubters rarely listen or analyze those answers. They tend to stick to their opinion.
Right. It's human nature to boast that "his toys are better then others toys" , which is the main obstacle to find the truth.
so it seems the Qur'an has failed in its universal message of transformation of men... ???
I didn't find any ayat in Quran , where it claims that Quran is revealed for the purpose of transformation of men. If you got any , please share.
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Pazuzu would you care to translate verse 3350 for me?
Pickthall
O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.Clearly this verse says that Allah has made lawful those whom your right hand possesses out of the spoils of war.
Never did I say that whom your right hand possesses means sex slaves. It simply means slaves.
What does those under oath even mean? Are you saying they WEREN'T slaves? You think these people willingly became slaves after being defeated in battle?
Your translation makes no sense to me and it seems like a shallow euphemism or sugarcoating of the facts.
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Because established Islamic scholars had a different opinion than that of Pazuzu?
No wonder! Now I understand , why you loss faith in Quran? It is because , you analyze Quran through the eyes of established Islamic scholars , who are heavily biased with so called corrupted hadiths and follows blindly the footsteps of earler Imams.
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No wonder! Now I understand , why you loss faith in Quran? It is because , you analyze Quran through the eyes of established Islamic scholars , who are heavily biased with so called corrupted hadiths and follows blindly the footsteps of earler Imams.
No. I'm not a hadith follower nor did I interpret the Qur'an using only the traditional translations.
Some verses however are pretty clear and I realize the intellectual dishonesty of simply changing the meaning of verses I don't find reasonable.
In addition my losing faith in Qur'an was only a first step in questioning the concept of the Islamic God in its entirety. I don't even need to attack the Qur'an in order to argue against Islam however. The concept of the Abrahamic God alone is enough for me to question every Abrahamic faith.
But I'm done for the night I'll be back tomorrow and I'm awaiting Pazuzu's translation of verse 3350 for me I hope.
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Pickthall
O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.Clearly this verse says that Allah has made lawful those whom your right hand possesses out of the spoils of war.
Never did I say that whom your right hand possesses means sex slaves. It simply means slaves.
Peace,
That is the issue with most all translations and translators, they are not consistent, imprecise, and insert words that are not there like spoils of war and slaves nor can one tell what words are translated as such.
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you spouses the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand from what bestowed The God to you and daughters your paternal uncles and daughters your paternal aunts and daughters your maternal uncles and daughters your maternal aunts the ones who migrated with you and woman believing if she devotes herself to the phrophet if intended the prophet that marry her exclusively to you from besides the believers hence we know what We made obligatory on them in their spouses and what possess their right hands not will be to you difficulty and is The God Forgiving Merciful
3352 not lawful to you the women from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty only what possess your right hand and is The God over each a thing Watchful
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FJ,
I am not advocating adoption of another belief system nor a belief in pixies and leprechauns rotfl
I was not suggesting you take on anything new.
What I was advocating was practice over study.
meditation over academia.
I have found periods of intense experiential study (meditation) to engender some very interesting insights and realisations.
You may question these (and it is good to do so) is it a chemical imbalance in my brain brought on by...?
Is it is really 'religious' or is it mental illness?
However what have you to lose?
I have found meditation exceptionally useful helping me both directly experience insights and intellectually grasp, what seemed unreconcilable dichotomies.
Again you have the internet at your disposal to see the medical and psychological benefits of meditation so I will not start posting evidence.Instead of thinking that I want you to take on any new beliefs (as I do Not) think of it this way...
I am just suggesting you apply some exercises that you do not even have to believe work!As for the universal consciousness and souls on a different spectrum thing, this is not something I personally adhere to. My beliefs are neither new age, all embracing or as woolly as you seem to think.
My suggestion is a practical application of exercises not a taking up of beliefs or religions.
Salaam Brother hmm
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Zulf,
I have found Shamatha and Vipassana when applied diligently and over time to have excellent results. I have also discussed these techniques in detail with (what I consider) to be learned and wise Muslim teachers who assure me they are neither incompatible nor contradictory to Islam.
In fact they have comparable techniques in some Islamic lineages.
I only mention these in particular as I have found them exceptionally efficacious!A good friend of Mine who is a Nihang Sikh took this advice and decided to on retreat with Goenka's Vipassana for 10 days (the courses are free and non religious) he has now incorporated the techniques into his study and prayer.
I could go on about why these techniques are useful/helpful to a Muslim however it would appear that most here are both able to research and think for themselves.
Salaam