Similar and firm verses
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Salaam Brother Kyle and all,
Kyke Wrote
First, let me apologize for any of my comments which were out of character for one who submits to the One God. I slip from time to time out of my peace and become impatient. There is no excuse for that, again I apologize.
No apologies necessary bro. I wasn't offended in anyway during our discussion. D
I have to ask, what motive does the mind have to even TRY to percieve that which is unknown?
Whether you agree or dis-agree, Ghaiyb Definately means that which is unknown and unperceived by the human senses. You have stated in prior posts of this discussion that you believe with sufficient effort and study that we can gain knowledge of Al - Ghaiyb. The only difference is that you believe that Al-Ghaiyb only applies to that which the human eye cannot see.
I disagree, why did the God DISPLAY them before the malaika if it had nothing to do with sight?
The use of the English term Display is only a consequence of the translation that I used. The 'Arabic word 'Arda, like all 'Arabic roots, has a much wider meaning than that which can be Displayed. It is for that reason that Most of the other English translations used the word Presented for this term. Muhammad Asad's translation says something to the effect of Bestowing them to the malakai.
More importantly, you are forgetting some other key terms in this passage, which I have put in bold emphasis below
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.
They said Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.
He said O Adam, inform them of the description of these, so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said Did I not tell you that I know al - ghaiyb of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?It is terribly obvious that this entire situation is not dealing with something that is either seen or not seen. It is dealing with the description of the things that GOD has taught to Adam and that Adam, subsequently, taught to the Angels. We DO NOT physically see knowledge. We are either taught it or not taught it.
Let me give you my understanding of the verse first before we continue.
The God informed the physical man (adam) of the description of all things. But then he DISPLAYED physical things to the MENTAL realm where thoughts (malaika) reside. Thoughts alone cannot understand the physical realm, they require the INTERMEDIARY of the physical body(adam) with its senses or SIGHT. hearing, etc to explain it, which is why we read;I respect your understanding, but in all truthfulness, it is not the result of the context of the verses in question. One would have to force this understanding to come from these verses.
One does not truly KNOW something until they SEE it for themselves.
This isn't true. We cannot see the wind or the breeze. But we know for sure that it exists because we can actually FEEL it. You may want to say that we can SEE the wind and the breeze blowing through the trees and the grass, etc. But this is not the same thing, because those things we are seeing are the Result/Effect that the wind and breeze have. It is not the physically sight of the wind itself. Let me give a better, albeit comical, example.......farting.
You can be sitting down watching a football game with a friend and he tells you that he just let one out. You say that you do not Know this for sure because you cannot See it. Well, about 5 seconds after he told you, lo and behold, you smell a very foul stench in the air. Now you know for sure that he let one out, even though you can't see it. This is just a humorous example of how we don't only gain knowledge of things through sight. GOD says in 1736 that He gave us Hearing and Intellect in addition to sight, which means these also serve a purpose of learning.
What is the arabic for "personal matters"? I think that translation is incorrect. Here is the literal trans from the father and daughter team.
(434) The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them (F) , so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
Your statement that I emphasised in bold, I am entitled to ask the same question and give the same opinion based upon the translation you used. Neither one of us can say that our translation preference is the correct one and the other persons preference is incorrect. The same questions and opinions you have for the translation I used, I have the exact same question and opinions of the translation you used. Also, keep in mind that I use several translations and not dedicate myself to just one translation. But, my overall preference is to understand it in light of the Original Arabic Text.
I see this as being that which goes on in the household, which is SEEn by the couple, but not others (where personal matters would come from), or could be protecting the private parts which are SEEN by the couple but not seen by others.
Brother Kyle, can you see emotions?? Can you see the dislike a man may have for his wife? Can you see a suspicion that a wife may have about her husband possibly cheating on her? Can you see the outright hatred that a woman has when her husband leaves the toilet seat up?? No You Cannot!!! You would have to live among them to Know for sure that these different attitudes/spirits and emotions exist Behind Closed Doors.
Again, I personally feel that your understanding of this verse would have to be forced since the context and actual theme of the verse itself does not agree with what you are coming away with.
Only the husband and wife can SEE what goes on in thier home. No one else SEES this and the righteous spouse safeguards what is unseen by others, therfore unknown. Knowing is a product of seeing/experiencing as shown by the example of Adam and his thoughts(malaika).
Not true Kyle. If your wife Tells her sister or her best friend about a very bad situation between you two, she is actually 'Ardu' (presenting/informing) them. They now have knowledge of what's going in in your house. This they learned not from seeing it with their own eyes, nor from experiencing it for themsleves. But from being Told/Informed by your wife. The same as Adam Told/Informed the angels of descriptions of some things.
Keep in mind that knowing is a product of seeing. If you don't SEE IT, you are only guessing.
Please try and keep in mind the examples I gave of the wind, the farting and ones wife informing others about the household affairs. All without the use of sight.
They cannot have knowledge because they did not SEE the response, therefoore they do not know.
Brother Kyle, you are the only one I know who have come up with such a definition. Everyone knows that you do not "SEE" a response. You either Hear someone responding or you Learn of/about someones response, be it directly or indirectly.
But what I am trying to get you to see is that the SEEING comes FIRST, and that is what is meant by "Ghayb".
I understand that "SEEING" has a lot do with Ghaiyb, I have never denied that. I am simply trying to get you to undertsand that "SEEING" is not the primary definition of Ghaiyb. There is no primary definition. You learn the meaning of the word based upon how it is used and in what context. This what determines the meaning of a words usage.
You Perceive/Realize or Not Perceive/Not Realize secrets and conspiracies.
Sure, but the God SEES them. I do not disagree to that. Again, that is in line with my position that these things are UNSEEN (ghayb).
Just understand that perception and realization aren't the sole product of "SEEING" something. I Realize that the flu can render one weak and unabled. I can't "SEE" the flu, but I realize it's effects if I catch it.
I believe you are misunderstanding my statement. We KNOW it is from our Lord because GOD says in 37 that is what distinguishes the firm believers from those with Ill Intentions. Your analogy with the Bible is mixing appples and oranges because that isn't what I said at all my Brother.
It is not mixing apples and oranges. You are stating that if we know SOME OF IT is true, then we are to accept the WHOLE of it as true. I do not follow that logic and I used the so called bible as my example.
I'm sorry that you do not follow this logic, because I do. I not only base this logic on 37, I base it on 226 as well
God does not shy away from citing the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, THEY KNOW that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they Say What does God want with this example? He lets many stray by it, and He guides many, but He only lets stray the evildoers.
The God is talking about Al Kitaab, the ever unfolding book of life, not this reading(quran).
My point exactly.
This is again the situation that caused me to bring up the bible similitude. To say you KNOW all is from the God because SOME of it is confirmed is not logical. We can do the same for the bible which contains some very good messages.
I again refer you to 226.
I disagree, it is OUR choice! D There are no "chosen" people, there are only the CHOOSING people! D Do you see the difference? Can you feel the power and RESPONSIBILITY in that statement? We reap ONLY what we sow, so how do you say its up to the God? If two men work EQUALLY hard at the same project, will the God be unfair and grant the reward only to one of them? The God promises that we will be rewarded for what we do. Please think on this hard.
Again, I believe that 226 applies here as well.
No, No, No! D How do you get arrogance out of a statement of confidence? I never said I know it all, I only said that we are all capable of understanding the message that was sent to us for us to understand. What is wrong with that?
I never accuse you of being arrogant. I was speaking of us all generally. That is why I said WE!! I do this because I know that I have to remember this advice for myself as well as remind others. It was not a statement directed at you specifically. It was a statement that I hope that we all pay heed to. Definately myself included.
Again! D Brother, please stop implying that I am saying I or anyone knows it ALL, I am only talking about understanding a message that was snet to us to understand, not KNOWING ALL THINGS, there is a great difference and it cannot see why everyone here is trying to keep stating what I am NOT stating.
Again bro, I am not implying anything concerning you. And I am not stating that you said something that you did not say. That is something that you do not have to worry about from me. I absolutely will not twist peoples statements or put words in their mouths. That is something that I am firmly against people doing.
Finally, I want to address GHAYB again. Please listen careully and think about this before responding.
There is the SEEN world, and there is the UNSEEN world which is covered(jinn) from sight. The UNKNOWN is part of the UNSEEN world because you have to SEE/WITNESS something in order to KNOW it. Now, regarding the UNSEEN world, we have two categories, that which is unseen and also unknown, and that which is unseen but we have some information about it, like wind and thoughts. Out of these two categories the God tells us not to follow one of those paths.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but within this final analysis of yours, there's an admittance of Al - Ghaiyb being "UNKNOWN" as well as "UNSEEN" which is what I have been advocating from the very start??
Salaam.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
Kyke Wrote
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First, let me apologize for any of my comments which were out of character for one who submits to the One God. I slip from time to time out of my peace and become impatient. There is no excuse for that, again I apologize.No apologies necessary bro. I wasn't offended in anyway during our discussion.
Good, Peace be upon you, lets continue.
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I have to ask, what motive does the mind have to even TRY to percieve that which is unknown?Whether you agree or dis-agree, Ghaiyb Definately means that which is unknown and unperceived by the human senses. You have stated in prior posts of this discussion that you believe with sufficient effort and study that we can gain knowledge of Al - Ghaiyb. The only difference is that you believe that Al-Ghaiyb only applies to that which the human eye cannot see.
Look at the word UnKNOWN. It deals with KNOWledge. We are told not to go after that which we have no knlwledge of. This contradicts the statement that we should have faith in the unKNOWN. You have to at least be aware of something to have faith in it. How can you have faith in something unknown? Can you have faith in a "dupeculdeerer"? But that which is unseen, but still experienced, like thoughts, wind, etc We can have faith in them. We can have faith that very fast winds will be dangerous for us.
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I disagree, why did the God DISPLAY them before the malaika if it had nothing to do with sight?The use of the English term Display is only a consequence of the translation that I used. The 'Arabic word 'Arda, like all 'Arabic roots, has a much wider meaning than that which can be Displayed. It is for that reason that Most of the other English translations used the word Presented for this term. Muhammad Asad's translation says something to the effect of Bestowing them to the malakai.
More importantly, you are forgetting some other key terms in this passage, which I have put in bold emphasis below
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said ?Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.?
They said ?Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.?
He said ?O Adam, inform them of the description of these,? so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said ?Did I not tell you that I know al - ghaiyb of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding??Look again at the verse, Adam was the one taught by the God the description, The malaika physical objects were placed before the malaika and asked to describe them, but since malaika(thoughts) without a human body and its senses cannot describe physical objects, they were unable to do so, So Adam(the physical representation of mankind) began describing these physical objects (all things) by using the senses.
It is terribly obvious that this entire situation is not dealing with something that is either seen or not seen. It is dealing with the description of the things that GOD has taught to Adam and that Adam, subsequently, taught to the Angels. We DO NOT physically see knowledge. We are either taught it or not taught it.
Yes, descriptions can only be given by the being with senses, the human(adam). The malaika prostrate to Adam (except Iblis). So yes, it is dealing with descriptions, but the story is further clarifying that malaika are thoughts by showing us how they could not describe that which was exhibited/shown/displayed to them.
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Let me give you my understanding of the verse first before we continue.
The God informed the physical man (adam) of the description of all things. But then he DISPLAYED physical things to the MENTAL realm where thoughts (malaika) reside. Thoughts alone cannot understand the physical realm, they require the INTERMEDIARY of the physical body(adam) with its senses or SIGHT. hearing, etc to explain it, which is why we read;I respect your understanding, but in all truthfulness, it is not the result of the context of the verses in question. One would have to force this understanding to come from these verses.
I hope after pondering it more you will see how this fits perfectly
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One does not truly KNOW something until they SEE it for themselves.This isn't true. We cannot see the wind or the breeze. But we know for sure that it exists because we can actually FEEL it.
Knowing something and knowing it exsists are two different things. I know the person sitting next to me has a husband , because she left last week to get married and is back talking about her wedding and the time they had. But I do not KNOW her husband. Similarly, one can know that wind exsists, but not really know what it is. Same for energy. Scientists cannot explain it, but they know it exsists. So we have FAITH in that which is unseen, but is known. We do not go after that which we have no knowledge. Whatever you do not WITNESS and EXPERIENCE is only hearsay.
You may want to say that we can SEE the wind and the breeze blowing through the trees and the grass, etc. But this is not the same thing, because those things we are seeing are the Result/Effect that the wind and breeze have. It is not the physically sight of the wind itself. Let me give a better, albeit comical, example.......farting.
Yes, good examples, and you are right, I am not saying we can see the wind or farts, but we have faith in the UNSEEN which we know exsists, but don't know about.
You can be sitting down watching a football game with a friend and he tells you that he just let one out. You say that you do not Know this for sure because you cannot See it. Well, about 5 seconds after he told you, lo and behold, you smell a very foul stench in the air. Now you know for sure that he let one out, even though you can't see it. This is just a humorous example of how we don't only gain knowledge of things through sight. GOD says in 1736 that He gave us Hearing and Intellect in addition to sight, which means these also serve a purpose of learning.
While you know the fart exsists, you do not know what the fart is, there are no visable parts to study. Your frind could have been lying, but your neighbor might be cooking some Chitlens(spelling) which came through your window.
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What is the arabic for "personal matters"? I think that translation is incorrect. Here is the literal trans from the father and daughter team.(434) The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them (F) , so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
Your statement that I emphasised in bold, I am entitled to ask the same question and give the same opinion based upon the translation you used. Neither one of us can say that our translation preference is the correct one and the other persons preference is incorrect. The same questions and opinions you have for the translation I used, I have the exact same question and opinions of the translation you used. Also, keep in mind that I use several translations and not dedicate myself to just one translation. But, my overall preference is to understand it in light of the Original Arabic Text.
Which statement was in bold?
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I see this as being that which goes on in the household, which is SEEn by the couple, but not others (where personal matters would come from), or could be protecting the private parts which are SEEN by the couple but not seen by others.Brother Kyle, can you see emotions?? Can you see the dislike a man may have for his wife? Can you see a suspicion that a wife may have about her husband possibly cheating on her? Can you see the outright hatred that a woman has when her husband leaves the toilet seat up?? No You Cannot!!! You would have to live among them to Know for sure that these different attitudes/spirits and emotions exist Behind Closed Doors.
Exactly my point!! Your thoughts alone(malaika) cannot describe the scene, you have toi be present so you can SEE what goes on. "adam" and his senses must be present for the malaika to get a good description.
I am running late and will address the rest of this post tommorrow, unless the God wills.
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Salaam Kyle,
It seems as though we are both SET in our understandings that we have concerning this issue, in which case this will go on possibly forever.
It looks like the only thing we can do is to just agree to disagree. )
Peace be with you.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
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Finally, I want to address GHAYB again. Please listen careully and think about this before responding.
There is the SEEN world, and there is the UNSEEN world which is covered(jinn) from sight. The UNKNOWN is part of the UNSEEN world because you have to SEE/WITNESS something in order to KNOW it. Now, regarding the UNSEEN world, we have two categories, that which is unseen and also unknown, and that which is unseen but we have some information about it, like wind and thoughts. Out of these two categories the God tells us not to follow one of those paths.Please correct me if I'm wrong, but within this final analysis of yours, there's an admittance of Al - Ghaiyb being "UNKNOWN" as well as "UNSEEN" which is what I have been advocating from the very start??
No, what I am saying is that al ghaiyb is unseen, and unknown is a by product of not seeing. We are told to have faith in the unseen, but we are told to avoid the unknown until we have knowledge of it.
It seems as though we are both SET in our understandings that we have concerning this issue, in which case this will go on possibly forever.
It looks like the only thing we can do is to just agree to disagree
Or continue putting it all together like Auset did for Ausar after SET cut him into 14 pieces. But thats another story (or is it?) D
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Peace idolfree,
How would you qualify belief in Allah i.e. knowing that IT exists? Is it not believing in the unknown, let alone the unseen?
Great discussion.
Regards -
Peace be upon you Mozmahe,
How would you qualify belief in Allah i.e. knowing that IT exists? Is it not believing in the unknown, let alone the unseen?
Great discussion.
Thanks for joining in. I quilify my FAITH (not belief) in the God by witnessing the creation. Faith is something that is built up. So in my lifetime observations, I have witnessed that when something comes to me in an orderly fashion, that an intellegent mind came before it and made it that way. For example, if you went to Mars and found 100 wooden blocks, all the same shape and size, and they were configured into the Alphabet (A,B,C,etc), you would assume that an intelligent MIND was there before you. All one has to do is look at the Atom and how calculated and precise it is, or look at a human being created from a sperm drop. The signs of the exsistence of the God are too numerous to count.
So although the God is unseen, "He" is known about, just like wind and thoughts.
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Peace Idolfree,
Pity there are no atheists/agnostics to try and refute this claim of yours, since I myself goes by this logic. Anyway, this cannot be taken as a universal truth as all people would have believed in a god.
I am trying to say that belief in god which is more or less fact for us is speculation for others since tangible proof is not forthcoming. Hope you understand what I am trying to say. Things our senses can come to bear. I will stop here as I am losing myself in this explanation. Hope others can add to that.Regards
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Peace be upon you Mozmahe,
I am sorry, I was not entirely clear withmy response. Only the part of the God that is manifested can be seen.
Yes, I said it!
Only the part of the God that is manifested can be seen.
We cannot say that we see the God because there are unseen parts to the WHOLE.
So by looking at the processes of life, we are seeing a small aspect of the Creator, but this is not a comparison, because the object can never be compared to the WHOLE(both seen and unseen).
Let me try one more time, there is that which is percieved and there is that which percieves. That which percieves CANNOT be percieved by that which is percieved.
I'm sure I lost somebody there