Blind faith in God or using logic before believing in God?
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Peace huruf,
Of course you are right when you state that
I somehow feel that God is beyond reason,
SalaamOur reasoning can only go as far as acknowledging God's existence and his attributes.
Many question God, but that is an excercise in futility. According to the Quran God
does not allow himself to be questioned
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.Reason is no more than a human tool we use to form opinions, come to conclusions,
acquire knowledge etc., but reason has its limits, God did not create equals to himself
but dependents.The ego is necessary. There is no individual existence without ego. The aim is not to eliminate the ego, but to go beyond it.
SalaamThe ego itself must acknowledge that which is beyond it and intellectually submit to the controller of reality in order for the ego to reach its full potential. Allowing the higher attributes of humility, selflessness, fearlessness, and oneness to emerge from the soul.
The Quran states
Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged your souls by worshiping the calf. You must repent to your Creator. You shall kill your egos. This is better for you in the sight of your Creator." He did redeem you. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful.Peace O0
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Logic only works if the underlying assumptions are sound. "Rational" and "critical" often means "myopic" and "arrogant" in reality.
There is nothing inherently illogical about the existence of God, there's just small people using small reasoning.In my post I did not mention anything about the existence of a god. I asked whether anyone could successfully have logics and all-powerful co-exist.
I am not aware of any instance where rational can mean myopic. Could you please provide an example? The same for critical and arrogant if you would, please. Thanks.
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Yup, I agree. There has to be some sort of belief not based on logic...like most Atheists start out "I can't believe in something I can't see."
I personally feel both are absolutely required.
Peace,
Amina
"most atheists"? Oh dear, I don't know a single one who would say this.
A theist is someone who believes there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist is the opposite of a theist.There is a difference in a belief based on experience and a belief for the sake of a belief, without reason.
I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. Do I have a reason, such as empirical evidence, for that belief? I maintain yes!
If there is no reason to believe something, why should I believe it? -
Peace Stop S
Peace scaredmuslimahI have to respectfully disagree with the conclusion you have reached. While also
agreeing partially with conclusion of Stop S.Yes logic must be tested by debate or proved or disproved by evidence.
But the subject is "submission" not philosophy or any other subject, therefore
we must turn to God's revelations for the answers.
I also submit that faith is an branch of understanding or misunderstandingPeace O0
Sorry, but I don't understand your point. I don't think I have come to any conclusion. I made an observation and asked some questions.
What does submission have to do with a belief? The belief in a god is purely philosophically as we don't have anything physical.
If you apply logics to the existence of a god you first need to demonstrate the existence of a particular god before turning to that god's scripture. After all, if logics do not substantiate your belief there is no reason to believe the scripture was authored by that very god.
Faith in my eyes is ignoring rational understanding and logics. Have you read about the concepts contained within epistemology? How we gain and classify knowledge?
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"Allah knows best." How in the world do I explain that to someone who constantly uses logic and does not go off of faith? It's impossible.
When things happen in my life that I can't explain or understand, that is what I have to say to myself. If I tried to use logic for every single situation like that, I would go mad.
So yes...blind faith is required. Not in the sense that one is stupid or ignorant, but in the sense that they must completely rely on God and let logic go at times.
Peace,
Amina
That's a very nice way of explaining it. I hope you are not angry if I use that in the future. I think it strikes a nice balance.
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There are irrational people who define the word "God" in irrational manner...
If irrational people define irrationally, wouldn't that be rational?
You have a good point in my opinion. What is the definition of "god" for you?
And why "belief in" and not "belief"? -
That's a very nice way of explaining it. I hope you are not angry if I use that in the future. I think it strikes a nice balance.
Peace StopS
My words have no copyright. Masha'Allah, I am happy that you found them useful!
Amina
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"most atheists"? Oh dear, I don't know a single one who would say this.
A theist is someone who believes there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist is the opposite of a theist.There is a difference in a belief based on experience and a belief for the sake of a belief, without reason.
I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. Do I have a reason, such as empirical evidence, for that belief? I maintain yes!
If there is no reason to believe something, why should I believe it?I apologize for the late reply, and I apologize for the original post. I falsely assumed things about your position. I wrote those words out of arrogance and ignorance.
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I might sum up my view with God being entirely reasonable and completely mystical simultaneously. The submissive idea of God is in harmony with all I can perceive and reason around, but He is also completely, mindbendingly greater than anything I could ever comprehend. How can you ever hope to use reason as an approach the Infinite, Eternal, Absolute?
If irrational people define irrationally, wouldn't that be rational?
You have a good point in my opinion. What is the definition of "god" for you?
And why "belief in" and not "belief"?I define "Irrational" as those which doesn't make sense or those statement which rationally can be deducted as false / pointless. There's a big difference between "I don't know" and "I know it's BS"...
Example
S 10/3 = 3.3333333333333 (up to infinity)
Q In the decimal form result of 10/3 = How many 3s are there?
A Infinite
Reasonable / rational statement with non definitive answer.S 10/3 = -150000 because it's said so in my holy book.
Unreasonable / irrational / false statement with ridiculous argument.S 5 + Y = X
Q If Y is UNKNOWN, what number is X?
A If Y is UNKNOWN then X is UNKNOWN, either Y or X must be KNOWN first..
Reasonable / rational statement which doesn't entirely answer the question.Now second question, belief is an internal perception of things around us..
Belief shall shape our thought, emotionIMHO 'belief in God' is irrelevant. Thus "What Is God" doesn't necessarily need to be answered.
What's important is the belief that 'things around us' shall turn out to be better for us. (Positive Attitude).Belief / opinion by itself doesn't really matter. At the end of the day; it's your deed / act that count.
Do good deeds / acts and be positive.
Salam / Peace
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I define "Irrational" as those which doesn't make sense or those statement which rationally can be deducted as false / pointless. There's a big difference between "I don't know" and "I know it's BS"...
It was actually making fun of the double negative....
And yes, I agree with your differentiation.
Now second question, belief is an internal perception of things around us..
IMHO 'belief in God' is irrelevant. Thus "What Is God" doesn't necessarily need to be answered.
What's important is the belief that 'things around us' shall turn out to be better for us. (Positive Attitude).Belief / opinion by itself doesn't really matter. At the end of the day; it's your deed / act that count.
Do good deeds / acts and be positive.
Salam / Peace
Here I disagree. I need to know why I believe what I believe.
If I come across the concept of a god, I primarily require a definition.
According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment. A bad person without any value to humanity can be rewarded with an afterlife in a heaven by the proper belief. Blind faith gets rewarded.
Good deeds are ok - but faith is better.
Bad deeds are not necessarily punished because faith has a higher value. -
According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment. A bad person without any value to humanity can be rewarded with an afterlife in a heaven by the proper belief. Blind faith gets rewarded.
Good deeds are ok - but faith is better.
Bad deeds are not necessarily punished because faith has a higher value.Can you please get me some aayaats from where you get this idea? Thanks!
mmKhan
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According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment.
Can you please get me some aayaats from where you get this idea? Thanks!
Sure, if you have no access to a Koran, here are some examples
"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them , they will have no faith" (26).
"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (215).
A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (224).
They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (285).
"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (289).
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits " (290).
"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (29.
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book , and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2105).
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2114).
"Those to whom We have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2122).
" shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2126).
"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2142).
"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2154).
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2162).
"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (216.
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2172).
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2175).
"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2176).
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2190?93).
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2216).
"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith?if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2217?1.
"God does not guide the evil-doers" (225.
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2264).
"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2270).
"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2272).
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (35).
"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (310).
"Say to the unbelievers ?You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell?an evil resting place!'" (312).
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (319).
"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful?he that does this has nothing to hope for from God?except in self-defense" (32.
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (311.
"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3140).
"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3149-51).
"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle ?Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3156).
"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3169).
"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (317.
"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3195?96).
"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (446).
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels ?These are better guided than the believers'" (450?51).
"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (455?56).
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (557).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (565).
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (567).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (569).
"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say ?We are Christians'" (580?82).
"hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (586).
"hey deny the truth when it is declared to them but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (65).
"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves , sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert ?This is but plain sorcery.' They ask ?Why has no angel been sent down to him ?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (65?.
"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (621).
"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say ?This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say ?Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 623?27).
"But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (629).
"Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (635).
"Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (639)
"heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (643?45).
"hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (649).
"Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (670).
"Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say ?Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (693).
"Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6107?12).
"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6121?25).
"If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6125).
These are just some examples. There are many more, but you wanted only "some aayaats".
They show that a non-believer who does not believe the credo and dogma of the Koran will suffer - without taking their way-of-life into consideration.
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Sure, if you have no access to a Koran, here are some examples
"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them , they will have no faith" (26).
"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (215).
A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (224).
They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (285).
"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (289).
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits " (290).
"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (29.
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book , and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2105).
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2114).
"Those to whom We have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2122).
" shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2126).
"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2142).
"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2154).
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2162).
"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (216.
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2172).
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2175).
"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2176).
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2190?93).
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2216).
"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith?if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2217?1.
"God does not guide the evil-doers" (225.
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2264).
"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2270).
"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2272).
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (35).
"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (310).
"Say to the unbelievers ?You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell?an evil resting place!'" (312).
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (319).
"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful?he that does this has nothing to hope for from God?except in self-defense" (32.
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (311.
"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3140).
"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3149-51).
"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle ?Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3156).
"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3169).
"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (317.
"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3195?96).
"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (446).
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels ?These are better guided than the believers'" (450?51).
"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (455?56).
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (557).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (565).
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (567).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (569).
"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say ?We are Christians'" (580?82).
"hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (586).
"hey deny the truth when it is declared to them but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (65).
"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves , sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert ?This is but plain sorcery.' They ask ?Why has no angel been sent down to him ?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (65?.
"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (621).
"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say ?This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say ?Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 623?27).
"But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (629).
"Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (635).
"Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (639)
"heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (643?45).
"hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (649).
"Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (670).
"Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say ?Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (693).
"Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6107?12).
"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6121?25).
"If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6125).
These are just some examples. There are many more, but you wanted only "some aayaats".
They show that a non-believer who does not believe the credo and dogma of the Koran will suffer - without taking their way-of-life into consideration.
Salaam StopS,
How come that you quote so many verses and you still don't see what they say hmm
Anyway, I like to thank you that you only quoted from The Quran.
I will inshaAllah try not to hijack this discussion between you and mmKhan.Salaam,
Bender -
Here I disagree. I need to know why I believe what I believe.
If I come across the concept of a god, I primarily require a definition.
- I agree. I also think that we need to know why we believe what we believe.
According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment. A bad person without any value to humanity can be rewarded with an afterlife in a heaven by the proper belief. Blind faith gets rewarded.
Good deeds are ok - but faith is better.
Bad deeds are not necessarily punished because faith has a higher value.-
I think that what you are discussing, and also having a problem with, is the common, typical approach to religion and faith.
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I think people have the approach they have towards religion, because they lack experience and a deeper understanding of what they are talking (when they talk about faith n religion). This is why weird and illogical translations come by.
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What you say about the quran above, I only agree with in that it is how people understand and translate it. The words are not definite, but understood and therefore translated according to the depth of the translators understanding and experience. Even if the translator is an ace in language, he might be crappy in spiritual understanding, and therefore his translation would necessarily reflect this to different extents.
So, I think it is a wrong or weak understanding of the quran that you are reporting. I agree with you that it doesn't make so much sense, they way you understand the quran. Personally I think the quran should not be understood this way, even though most people seem to render it in this fashion. I disagree that it is the quran itself that is wrong. -
My idea is that it a correct belief has nothing to do with blind faith at all, and all to do with seeing and experiencing reality. This is a gradual process, something that can deepen. No-one sits with all the right answers.
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I also think that we should not rush to conclude exactly what jannat and jahanam are, and what 'correct belief' and 'good' and 'value' are. People have already rushed.. and the understanding is in front of us... making not so much sense. I'm certain that a key thing in this is our understanding of what God/Allah/xyz is and is not. This is usually, IMO, where things go wrong, and other things follow on the wrong track. Isn't this also what Allah won't "forgive"? Shirk. We end up with personified, emotional images of the Creator, as if It is anything like we can figure out. This is why it is written in the quran that we should not associate anything with Allah. It doesn't only mean that we should not keep partners alongside with Allah, but we should not think of Allah as something of the creation. Actually, by just keeping partners with Allah means that we have no clue what Allah is. It's not about jealousy and fairness or so. Keeping partners means we bring Allah down into creation, and hence showing that we totally and utterly have misunderstood the entire concept of Allah. We make images of Allah that lead us astray. We create a fairy land with characters... and confusion and misery is the result of this. We should not try to understand what Allah is... but rather what Allah is not... that will take us closer. If we cannot grasp or comprehend Allah, then why do we try to. Why do we connect so many attributes to It that only befit people and creation? We should stop figuring out Allah, 'cause we cannot, and we should start experiencing it instead. We cannot figure out with the mind, but we can experience. We should stop interpreting the quran in the terminology and images of the biblical fairy tales. Those stories may have truth in them.. but they are at best concealed as similes and parables that people long ago have lost the understanding of. People have started taking them literally.
So yeah, I can understand your objection. But I don't conclude that it is the quran that is false... rather it would IMO be our understanding which is severely corrupt, silly and illogical. I think the real message of the quran is deeply buried under lots of mental nonsense, blindness and baggage that we impose on it. The quran cannot be understood thru language only. It requires something more. In fact, it seems that the more religious one gets, the farther away from Allah on also gets.
Just my opinion.Peace
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I agree. I also think that we need to know why we believe what we believe.
-
I think that what you are discussing, and also having a problem with, is the common, typical approach to religion and faith.
-
I think people have the approach they have towards religion, because they lack experience and a deeper understanding of what they are talking (when they talk about faith n religion). This is why weird and illogical translations come by.
-
What you say about the quran above, I only agree with in that it is how people understand and translate it. The words are not definite, but understood and therefore translated according to the depth of the translators understanding and experience. Even if the translator is an ace in language, he might be crappy in spiritual understanding, and therefore his translation would necessarily reflect this to different extents.
So, I think it is a wrong or weak understanding of the quran that you are reporting. I agree with you that it doesn't make so much sense, they way you understand the quran. Personally I think the quran should not be understood this way, even though most people seem to render it in this fashion. I disagree that it is the quran itself that is wrong. -
My idea is that it a correct belief has nothing to do with blind faith at all, and all to do with seeing and experiencing reality. This is a gradual process, something that can deepen. No-one sits with all the right answers.
-
I also think that we should not rush to conclude exactly what jannat and jahanam are, and what 'correct belief' and 'good' and 'value' are. People have already rushed.. and the understanding is in front of us... making not so much sense. I'm certain that a key thing in this is our understanding of what God/Allah/xyz is and is not. This is usually, IMO, where things go wrong, and other things follow on the wrong track. Isn't this also what Allah won't "forgive"? Shirk. We end up with personified, emotional images of the Creator, as if It is anything like we can figure out. This is why it is written in the quran that we should not associate anything with Allah. It doesn't only mean that we should not keep partners alongside with Allah, but we should not think of Allah as something of the creation. Actually, by just keeping partners with Allah means that we have no clue what Allah is. It's not about jealousy and fairness or so. Keeping partners means we bring Allah down into creation, and hence showing that we totally and utterly have misunderstood the entire concept of Allah. We make images of Allah that lead us astray. We create a fairy land with characters... and confusion and misery is the result of this. We should not try to understand what Allah is... but rather what Allah is not... that will take us closer. If we cannot grasp or comprehend Allah, then why do we try to. Why do we connect so many attributes to It that only befit people and creation? We should stop figuring out Allah, 'cause we cannot, and we should start experiencing it instead. We cannot figure out with the mind, but we can experience. We should stop interpreting the quran in the terminology and images of the biblical fairy tales. Those stories may have truth in them.. but they are at best concealed as similes and parables that people long ago have lost the understanding of. People have started taking them literally.
So yeah, I can understand your objection. But I don't conclude that it is the quran that is false... rather it would IMO be our understanding which is severely corrupt, silly and illogical. I think the real message of the quran is deeply buried under lots of mental nonsense, blindness and baggage that we impose on it. The quran cannot be understood thru language only. It requires something more. In fact, it seems that the more religious one gets, the farther away from Allah on also gets.
Just my opinion.Peace
Peace Zulf,
I like a lot of what you said, especially the bolded above. If we have not yet figured out that religion and spirituality are two separate devices, then we still have a long way to go. I know of one denomination of Christianity in which if you call them "religious" they are offended. I am starting appreciate their stance on that word.
And yes...I have said it in other posts...we put "limits" on God with our interpretations and thinking. Who are we to say what He will and will not forgive, do, or allow just because that is the way we understand it?
Peace,
Amina
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- I agree. I also think that we need to know why we believe what we believe.
- I think that what you are discussing, and also having a problem with, is the common, typical approach to religion and faith.
- I think people have the approach they have towards religion, because they lack experience and a deeper understanding of what they are talking (when they talk about faith n religion). This is why weird and illogical translations come by.
- What you say about the quran above, I only agree with in that it is how people understand and translate it. The words are not definite, but understood and therefore translated according to the depth of the translators understanding and experience. Even if the translator is an ace in language, he might be crappy in spiritual understanding, and therefore his translation would necessarily reflect this to different extents.
So, I think it is a wrong or weak understanding of the quran that you are reporting. I agree with you that it doesn't make so much sense, they way you understand the quran. Personally I think the quran should not be understood this way, even though most people seem to render it in this fashion. I disagree that it is the quran itself that is wrong. - My idea is that it a correct belief has nothing to do with blind faith at all, and all to do with seeing and experiencing reality. This is a gradual process, something that can deepen. No-one sits with all the right answers.
- I also think that we should not rush to conclude exactly what jannat and jahanam are, and what 'correct belief' and 'good' and 'value' are. People have already rushed.. and the understanding is in front of us... making not so much sense. I'm certain that a key thing in this is our understanding of what God/Allah/xyz is and is not. This is usually, IMO, where things go wrong, and other things follow on the wrong track. Isn't this also what Allah won't "forgive"? Shirk. We end up with personified, emotional images of the Creator, as if It is anything like we can figure out. This is why it is written in the quran that we should not associate anything with Allah. It doesn't only mean that we should not keep partners alongside with Allah, but we should not think of Allah as something of the creation. Actually, by just keeping partners with Allah means that we have no clue what Allah is. It's not about jealousy and fairness or so. Keeping partners means we bring Allah down into creation, and hence showing that we totally and utterly have misunderstood the entire concept of Allah. We make images of Allah that lead us astray. We create a fairy land with characters... and confusion and misery is the result of this. We should not try to understand what Allah is... but rather what Allah is not... that will take us closer. If we cannot grasp or comprehend Allah, then why do we try to. Why do we connect so many attributes to It that only befit people and creation? We should stop figuring out Allah, 'cause we cannot, and we should start experiencing it instead. We cannot figure out with the mind, but we can experience. We should stop interpreting the quran in the terminology and images of the biblical fairy tales. Those stories may have truth in them.. but they are at best concealed as similes and parables that people long ago have lost the understanding of. People have started taking them literally.
What I see and what I understand is that you are saying the words are there to be understood and not scrutinized.
Also, the interpretation of the words as they are intended will eventually lead to an intended understanding, which is not always appreciated.Correct me if I'm wrong.
My principle in understanding a super-natural being we commonly call god is this
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
The concept of a devil, originally created as a worshipping angel turned evil is beyond me. Why not engage in positive encouragement instead of terror and fear?Contrast this with a profound understanding of nature.
No evil, just natural phenomena.
No punishment, just a fulfilled life without artificial constraints.
No faith or even blind faith, just experience.Now please explain the advantage of faith.
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What I see and what I understand is that you are saying the words are there to be understood and not scrutinized.
Also, the interpretation of the words as they are intended will eventually lead to an intended understanding, which is not always appreciated.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
My principle in understanding a super-natural being we commonly call god is this- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
The concept of a devil, originally created as a worshipping angel turned evil is beyond me. Why not engage in positive encouragement instead of terror and fear?
Contrast this with a profound understanding of nature.
No evil, just natural phenomena.
No punishment, just a fulfilled life without artificial constraints.
No faith or even blind faith, just experience.
Now please explain the advantage of faith.
Excellent post,
Peace StopS,
You could start by capitalizing God to show reverence and respect.
Your error is you set the criterion for what is acceptable to you from God.All Green are your quotes
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an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
Here you have replaced God's omnipotence with your own. -
an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
According to Quran God says he has produced such evidence. -
an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
I do not understand this sentence.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
Unhappiness, misery and oppression can last a long time in this life.
one can be punished for extended periods of time in this lifetime
note the sadistic brutally in many prison systems.
Enduring punishments are not out of context for the hereafter.Peace O0
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What I see and what I understand is that you are saying the words are there to be understood and not scrutinized.
Also, the interpretation of the words as they are intended will eventually lead to an intended understanding, which is not always appreciated.Correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace StopS,
Just some replies and random remarks from me
i. Understanding comes with time, experience, patience, open-mindedness, and sincere desire of it.ii. Words should be scrutinized. The opposite would be blind faith, which I think is madness.
iii. If person A can see reality X, while person B cannot, then it doesn't mean person A has a blind faith in X, even though person B cannot see reality X and hence likes to call it blind faith. Much arguments in such a situation is pretty futile though, since one side will not convince the other, regardless of the reality.
iv. What is appreciated, or rather felt as pleasant, depends on one's mind, up-bringing, past experiences, beliefs. The less wisdom and freedom of mind one has, the more rigid one's like's and dislike's would be. The wiser, more open, and free of the tyranny of one's mind you get, the less forced you will be to emotionally react to things in a compulsive way. If you're wise/open/free, you'll see all good points in things that "less wise" people might not be able to.
My principle in understanding a super-natural being we commonly call god is this
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
v. In my understanding, the issue arises from the notion that God (or whatever you call it) is super-natural. This make it into something separate, un-natural and out of the ordinary. It actually makes it something outside reality. The word also shows that it is defined as something that the tools of natural science cannot detect, and hence silly. God is called super-natural for the simple reason that those who call it that simply cannot feel or experience God (or at least hasn't yet). They try, like good scientists, to understand God with their minds, and fail miserably. This is also how Religions come up... through people who have no idea what God is like. They create an image (in place of an experience), mostly based on fear, and then you have a religion of blind faith followers. People who search for God usually look in the wrong place. They look outside. They go to priests, mullahs, rabbis, etc. They should instead start within with sincerity.
vi. This might sound paradoxical, but demanding evidence is the same as wanting to submit to blind faith. Why? Well, it is the desire to be presented evidence on a silver plate BEFORE you decide to believe, instead of reaching certainty, and and thereby faith, all by yourself. To be fed evidence is to not wanting to do the work of discovery oneself. This is not limited to faith in God, but anything that takes some work before you gain certainty or knowledge about it.
vii. It's anyway not about evidence. It's about being open to let it in. The water is in the pipes all along, but unless you open the tap, it wont come to you.
viii. The issue again is the concept of a god that is outside us, super-natural, something else, separate. This sort of god will never be found except in one's imagination, and fairy tales. Just go and look into the religions of this world. They contain great truths, but they are mostly obscured with crazy fairy tales. Why does it seem like religions create misery, war and shit. Well, because 1) they are faaaar from understanding God (if God is good, then following God will produce goodness), and 2) people are controlled by their egos and emotions.
ix. If you really want to see the deeper reality, then quit dwelling on the things you don't believe in. Quite dwelling on the things that don't make sense. Just leave it. If you want to believe in God, then quite collecting evidence for the non-existence of god. If you believe that god doesn't exist, then just relax in that and go on with other matters of the world that you enjoy. Is there some uncertainty or insecurity? If others believe in the Easter Bunny, they will continue believe in it for as long as they decide to.
If you have reached a conclusion that God cannot be a cruel character that is unfair and what not. Congratulations!! I agree! But once that conclusion is reached, why keep come back to it? It is now established. Move on! Don't stop here. And IF you are STILL deep down, somewhere, interested in a greater meaning, then start looking for it where you haven't looked before, and in ways you haven't looked before. It is stupid to going round and round in a circle proving a thing over and over to oneself. Why would one do that? If God cannot reasonably be like that religions teach, then leave it and look elsewhere! Religions don't have monopoly on the truth, although they claim so. IF you have the desire to know and experience the truth, just ask inside yourself for it, and let the desire and intention of wanting it vibrate inside you. Fill your mind with it. Stop thinking and start feeling. And do give it TIME. You must give it time!! The mind is a just a tool. It's like a machine. It's not intelligent. It is just a very complex machine that can sort, filter, categorize, combine, extrapolate, compute that data that it is stored in its huge database, conscious and subconscious memory. But it is not really intelligent. It's a computer. If you relax and start feeling also instead of only thinking, then you will start realizing and seeing new things... things that the mind would not be able to dig out or add up.
Don't demand that others serve you the truth. That would be blind faith. I cannot happen. Open up to it and it will flow in all by itself. You must do the work yourself. It takes time to open up. It's a process that will never finish, but it can start here an now with a decision. It starts with you. Intention, desire and a decision. Forget all the fear propaganda by the blind religious fear mongers. Just leave them and forget them. Don't argue with them even. If you don't believe them, then don't pay attention to them, not even in you mind. Why focus on something you don't believe in?? Isn't that as mad as blind faith?So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
The concept of a devil, originally created as a worshipping angel turned evil is beyond me. Why not engage in positive encouragement instead of terror and fear?x. I can fully understand and relate to your apprehensions. But don't dwell on it too much. Look somewhere else!
Contrast this with a profound understanding of nature.
No evil, just natural phenomena.
No punishment, just a fulfilled life without artificial constraints.
No faith or even blind faith, just experience.Now please explain the advantage of faith.
xi. Nature is just a material environment we live in, a wonderful one. Imagine an understanding that goes beyond that! How liberating!
xii. Experience gives faith. It's the same thing. But if the word 'faith' carries negative connotations for you, then 'experience' is better. Blind faith is however undoubtedly madness.
xiii. Are you asking about the advantage of faith (as in a doubtful belief in a super-natural god) or about the advantage of experience? They're quite different. I'm only interested in experience. I prefer not to invest time in blind faith or other things that are not able to vastly improve your life.
Sorry for the lengthy text, but I enjoyed writing it laugh
Peace! -
Excellent post,
Peace StopS,
You could start by capitalizing God to show reverence and respect.
Thanks. God is a description or a function, a creator, not a name. It is not respect that makes a person capitalise a word, or is it? And I am sorry, I can't revere something I have no evidence for. This is in no way out of disrespect to you or any other human.
Your error is you set the criterion for what is acceptable to you from God.
Absolutely correct! This is MY personal expectation. But why is that an error? I have MY expectations for almost everything and I think I am entitled to that.
All Green are your quotes
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
Here you have replaced God's omnipotence with your own.
Not at all. I know what would be considered proof or evidence. That's all.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
According to Quran God says he has produced such evidence.
Hahaha, I like that! Yes, indeed, that's what makes you a believer and me a non-believer.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
I do not understand this sentence.
I am a mere mortal, a human. I make mistakes. An all-merciful being would not punish me for my making mistakes. Also, I would not be punished for misunderstanding confusing and erroneous descriptions.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
Unhappiness, misery and oppression can last a long time in this life.
one can be punished for extended periods of time in this lifetime
note the sadistic brutally in many prison systems.
Enduring punishments are not out of context for the hereafter.Yes, precisely, this is valid for human legal judgment, not for divine mercy.
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
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Peace Stop S
Thanks. God is a description or a function, a creator, not a name. It is not respect that makes a person capitalise a word, or is it? And I am sorry, I can't revere something I have no evidence for. This is in no way out of disrespect to you or any other human.
That's fine, I should not impose my grammatical habits, I apologize
I am a mere mortal, a human. I make mistakes. An all-merciful being would not punish me for my making mistakes. Also, I would not be punished for misunderstanding confusing and erroneous descriptions.
Maybe you misunderstand the all-merciful being.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
Unhappiness, misery and oppression can last a long time in this life.
one can be punished for extended periods of time in this lifetime
note the sadistic brutally in many prison systems.
Enduring punishments are not out of context for the hereafter.Yes, precisely, this is valid for human legal judgment, not for divine mercy.
Not all judgement is legal, some punishments are carried out by individuals against
their fellows citizens. But as you know, all experience cannot be positive.
(ying & yang)Peace O0