Why do you reject hadiths
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Peace rameez,
You quote quran out of context, obey the messenger means, the messenger is speaking
directly to an audience or the message can be verified by the messenger.here's an example
We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed in accordance with GOD's will. Had they, when they wronged their souls, come to you and prayed to GOD for forgiveness, and the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Never indeed, by your Lord; they are not believers unless they come to you to judge in their disputes, then find no hesitation in their hearts whatsoever in accepting your judgment. They must submit a total submission.
notice in the hadith it is not the messenger speaking but muslim,bukhari,tirmizi, and whoever.
Mere heresay, and heresay is not acceptable in any court of law, and the greatest court (judgement day)will not be based on heresay! Finally I cannot obey the messenger because he is dead, and doesn't speak
to us. Now you can trust those who say he said that he said that she said that...........
I'll stick with God.I hope this is helpful
Peace O0
Well its strange when you say that I am quoting it out of context.
for instance take this verse
3164 Certainly did Allah confer favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.
Where is the wisdom which is mentioned separately from Book ? Where it is recorded ? Or it is lost after Messenger taught those people ?
2448 And when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, at once a party of them turns aside .
The verse clearly says that if I have any problem or matter to judge I should refer to Allah and His Messenger. Now as you said Messenger is dead, how can I follow this verse ? How should I judge by Allah and His Messenger ? Where is the source for judging by Messenger ? or obeying Him ?
3336 It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.
2451 The only statement of the believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.
Are you saying that it is talking to believing man and believing woman of that time ?
Why it says "Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter" ? Why it do not simply says "When Allah or Quran has decided a matter" ? If it was only for that time why it is mentioned in Quran to confuse the majority who follow Hadiths/Sunnah based on these verses ?When you say that You cannot obey the Messenger , it seems like you are saying that Allah mentioned in His revelation to do something that is impossible ?
Peace rameez.
There is nothing to discuss then. Follow whatever you choose, if you do no believe , without a doubt, that Qoran is the word of GOD.
I reject "hadith" because I have solid proof that Qoran is the preserved word of GOD.
Peace.
I am following Quran and Quran orders me to Obey Messenger so I am obeying Messenger using the sources available to me.
You think that sunnis do not agree that Quran is the preserved word of God ? Every sect agree that Quran is preserved and in the form in which it was revealed and nothing has changed in it.What you are doing is called "cherrypicking". You are taking few verses and ignoring the others.
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Peace Rameez,
Take a look at these links
http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/Obey_Allah_And_Messenger.htm
http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/The_Only_Revelation.htm -
Peace rameez.
I will leave you with my last reply .
7516] Do not move your tongue to hasten it.]
It is we who will collect it into Quran.]
Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.]
Then it is we who will explain it.]I do not see in (751 follow such hadith and sunnah as well
Aso
551] The Most Gracious.]
Teacher of the Quran.]
It does not say and the messenger.God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills (to be guided). As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.]
For me the best hadith alone will do.( best hadith is sufficient, a fully detailed book!)
456] These are God's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?Finally
6112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.]
This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.]This is " following the messenger
6412] You shall obey God and you shall obey the messenger. If you turn away, then the sole mission of our messenger is to deliver the message.]
Peace and take care. -
Well its strange when you say that I am quoting it out of context.
I am following Quran and Quran orders me to Obey Messenger so I am obeying Messenger using the sources available to me.
You think that sunnis do not agree that Quran is the preserved word of God ? Every sect agree that Quran is preserved and in the form in which it was revealed and nothing has changed in it.What you are doing is called "cherrypicking". You are taking few verses and ignoring the others.
And even you can get hikmah from learning Quran. Without getting hikmah, you are just like a donkey. Hikmah is derived from learning Quran, not another law except Quran. What hadits tell is Prophet Mohammad invent another law beside Quran. So many examples of it.
What do you think about rajam in hadits ? it is hikmah from Quran Surah Nur 241-6? -
Rameez
. IF i follow the message of God I am obeying God not the messenger
Wrong. The messenger tells you to follow the message of god hence you follow both.
. IF you bring a message from someone and I reject the message it doesn't mean I disobeyed you but it means I disbelieved in you
Yes you disbelieved me and you also disobeyed me if I tell you to believe in it and you don't.
. You are not getting a simple concept and instead you are ignoring verses of Quran and giving your own explanation. This is one of the strange things I have heard that if I accept a message of anyone through a messenger I am obeying the Messenger.
Wrong. It is you who have troubles with understanding what a messenger means, and the reason is because you keep personalizing the messenger and separating messenger from th message which is a linguistic mistake. If the messenger TELLS you to believe in his message and you reject him, you are disobeying him because you didn't do what he asked you to do (believing in the message)
. When Allah and the Messenger are mentioned separately , it clearly gives an idea that they "both" are separate and obeyed .
Wrong. When God and the messenger are mentioned separately , it clearly gives an idea that one cannot be obeyed without obeying the other.
. 1641 And those who emigrated for Allah after they had been wronged - We will surely settle them in this world in a good place; but the reward of the Hereafter is greater, if only they could know.
Why it is not mentioned "Messenger" after Allah . Because according to your logic emigrating for Messenger will be emigrating for Allah ?
They migrated for the sake of God. You cannot migrate for the sake of a messenger unless it was ordered by God to give you a message through the migration.
. Wrong. Messengers are not to be followed if they have nothing outside the Message. Instead they are to be believed or accepted. But not followed/obeyed unless they have something outside that Message.
Cant you see how you contradict yourself ? Of course messengers have to be followed ONLY for the sake of the message. That is why the messenger is called a messenger . When he tells you to believe in the message, you are obeying him. I cannot see how you connect something "outside" to the message when the message itself is in the Quran. The messenger just tells you to obey Quran this yo? shall obey him.
. 1643 (Pickthall) And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
I still don't see where the word messenger is in the Arabic text. Do you know what () means ? The word (as our messengers) are inserted by pickthall and not found in the original text.
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Well its strange when you say that I am quoting it out of context.
for instance take this verse
3164 Certainly did Allah confer favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.
Where is the wisdom which is mentioned separately from Book ? Where it is recorded ? Or it is lost after Messenger taught those people ?
2448 And when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, at once a party of them turns aside .
The verse clearly says that if I have any problem or matter to judge I should refer to Allah and His Messenger. Now as you said Messenger is dead, how can I follow this verse ? How should I judge by Allah and His Messenger ? Where is the source for judging by Messenger ? or obeying Him ?
3336 It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.
2451 The only statement of the believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.
Are you saying that it is talking to believing man and believing woman of that time ?
Why it says "Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter" ? Why it do not simply says "When Allah or Quran has decided a matter" ? If it was only for that time why it is mentioned in Quran to confuse the majority who follow Hadiths/Sunnah based on these verses ?When you say that You cannot obey the Messenger , it seems like you are saying that Allah mentioned in His revelation to do something that is impossible ?
I am following Quran and Quran orders me to Obey Messenger so I am obeying Messenger using the sources available to me.
You think that sunnis do not agree that Quran is the preserved word of God ? Every sect agree that Quran is preserved and in the form in which it was revealed and nothing has changed in it.What you are doing is called "cherrypicking". You are taking few verses and ignoring the others.
The Quran uses a singular verb when talking about Quran and Hikmah. This is Al Shafi's logic. It even tells the prophets wives to recite the Quran and Hikmah. I hear a Sunni scholar saying the recite here is the Sunnah!!!! This is called desperation.
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Rameez
Wrong. The messenger tells you to follow the message of god hence you follow both.He just delivered the message of God to me. If i didn't accept the message i m disobeying God not the messenger. If messenger would have delivered his own message than yes i would have disobeyed him. If I today reject Quran it do not means I am disobeying Messenger , because today Quran has not reached me through Messenger it has reached through different sources.
Yes you disbelieved me and you also disobeyed me if I tell you to believe in it and you don't.
It is not disobedience it is rejection. Disobedience means if I reject YOUR message when I am required to follow it.
Wrong. It is you who have troubles with understanding what a messenger means, and the reason is because you keep personalizing the messenger and separating messenger from th message which is a linguistic mistake. If the messenger TELLS you to believe in his message and you reject him, you are disobeying him because you didn't do what he asked you to do (believing in the message)
I didn't separate Him from the Message, instead I am saying that Message orders me to Obey the Messenger. The point is it is not Messenger's message, it is God's message. Messenger is just a man in the middle delivering the message.
Wrong. When God and the messenger are mentioned separately , it clearly gives an idea that one cannot be obeyed without obeying the other.
Yes , so how can I obey the Messenger ? Today I have complete Quran and I don't have any Messenger. When I read this Ayah "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger" , what should I do ? If I write a book and ask a publisher to publish it and sell , There is no point in mentioning "Obey Me and Obey the publisher", unless the publisher have some knowledge to convey other than the contained in book.
Cant you see how you contradict yourself ? Of course messengers have to be followed ONLY for the sake of the message. That is why the messenger is called a messenger . When he tells you to believe in the message, you are obeying him. I cannot see how you connect something "outside" to the message when the message itself is in the Quran. The messenger just tells you to obey Quran this yo? shall obey him.
Again , if the whole message is in the Quran than it is sufficient to say "Obey Allah" ..or say "Follow Quran" . There is no point in stating "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger". Today He didn't tell me to believe in Quran . There are no words of Him in Quran which tells me to believe in it. It is Allah's word.
I still don't see where the word messenger is in the Arabic text. Do you know what () means ? The word (as our messengers) are inserted by pickthall and not found in the original text.
You didn't read the whole verse I think. It says "Whom we inspired". The arabic word used is n which according to corpus Quran means "We revealed" and many translators has mentioned "we revealed". So it is obvious it is talking about the Messenger because He was inspired or it was revealed to Him.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=43 -
He just delivered the message of God to me. If i didn't accept the message i m disobeying God not the messenger. If messenger would have delivered his own message than yes i would have disobeyed him. If I today reject Quran it do not means I am disobeying Messenger , because today Quran has not reached me through Messenger it has reached through different sources.
It is not disobedience it is rejection. Disobedience means if I reject YOUR message when I am required to follow it.
I didn't separate Him from the Message, instead I am saying that Message orders me to Obey the Messenger. The point is it is not Messenger's message, it is God's message. Messenger is just a man in the middle delivering the message.
Yes , so how can I obey the Messenger ? Today I have complete Quran and I don't have any Messenger. When I read this Ayah "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger" , what should I do ? If I write a book and ask a publisher to publish it and sell , There is no point in mentioning "Obey Me and Obey the publisher", unless the publisher have some knowledge to convey other than the contained in book.
Again , if the whole message is in the Quran than it is sufficient to say "Obey Allah" ..or say "Follow Quran" . There is no point in stating "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger". Today He didn't tell me to believe in Quran . There are no words of Him in Quran which tells me to believe in it. It is Allah's word.
You didn't read the whole verse I think. It says "Whom we inspired". The arabic word used is n which according to corpus Quran means "We revealed" and many translators has mentioned "we revealed". So it is obvious it is talking about the Messenger because He was inspired or it was revealed to Him.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=43The problem here is that you are assuming that Quran and messenger are two seperate things. So let me go with you anyways. What do you do if the Quran and the messenger are saying contradictory things? Who do you obey?
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The Quran uses a singular verb when talking about Quran and Hikmah. This is Al Shafi's logic. It even tells the prophets wives to recite the Quran and Hikmah. I hear a Sunni scholar saying the recite here is the Sunnah!!!! This is called desperation.
Most of the commentators agree that it is hadith/sunnah
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The problem here is that you are assuming that Quran and messenger are two seperate things. So let me go with you anyways. What do you do if the Quran and the messenger are saying contradictory things? Who do you obey?
Quran and messenger are not two separate things ??
I will follow Quran and that saying of Messenger is surely considered as fabrication or error.
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Quran and messenger are not two separate things ??
I will follow Quran and that saying of Messenger is surely considered as fabrication or error.
Ok then. But you do know this is against what both Sunnis and Shias believe as they believe in abrogation.
Now let me ask you another question.
Could the messenger make obligatory what the Quran did not? Could he add legislation the Quran did not?
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Ok then. But you do know this is against what both Sunnis and Shias believe as they believe in abrogation.
Yes , concept of abrogation is in the Quran. There is a difference in abrogation and contradiction, in that sense Quran is also contradictory.
Now let me ask you another question.
Could the messenger make obligatory what the Quran did not? Could he add legislation the Quran did not?
Yes of course. That is the main theme of the verses like "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger", "Who obeys Messenger has obeyed Allah" etc......
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Peace Rameez,
Take a look at these links
http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/Obey_Allah_And_Messenger.htm
http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/The_Only_Revelation.htmFollowing links will help
http//www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_the_quran_is_complete_and_therefore_we_don_t_need_hadith_
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/HadithProject1.htm -
Yes , concept of abrogation is in the Quran. There is a difference in abrogation and contradiction, in that sense Quran is also contradictory.
Yes of course. That is the main theme of the verses like "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger", "Who obeys Messenger has obeyed Allah" etc......
Than I don't think there is really a point of discussing with you since nobody here is going to accept abrogation. There really is no point being a Quranist if you believe in abrogation as it renders the verses of the Quran irrelevant and obsolete. Abrogation has a beginning but no end. It ends any authority for the Quran. I see this debate going in circles.
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Just a little side not
Not all Sunnis agree with the doctrine of abrogation, check out what my favorite commentator, Muhammad Asad says
2106
Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar
ones. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?87 The principle laid down in this passage - relating to the supersession of the Biblical
dispensation by that of the Qur'an - has given rise to an erroneous interpretation by many
Muslim theologians. The word ayah ("message" occurring in this, context is also used to
denote a "verse;" of the Qur'an (because every one of these verses contains a message).
Taking this restricted meaning of the term ayah, some scholars conclude from the above passage
that certain verses of the Qur'an have been "abrogated" by God's command before the
revelation of the Qur'an was completed. Apart from the fancifulness of this assertion -
which calls to mind the image of a human author correcting, on second thought, the proofs
of his manuscript - deleting one passage and replacing it with another - there does not
exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever, declared a verse of
the Qur'an to have been "abrogated". At the root of the so-called "doctrine of abrogation"
may lie the inability of some of the early commentators to reconcile one Qur'anic passage
with another a difficulty which was overcome by declaring that one of the verses in
question had been "abrogated". This arbitrary procedure explains also why there is no
unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of the "doctrine of abrogation" as to which, and
how many, Qur'an verses have been affected by it; and, furthermore, as to whether this
alleged abrogation implies a total elimination of the verse in question from the context
of the Qur'an, or only a cancellation of the specific ordinance or statement contained in it.
In short, the "doctrine of abrogation" has no basis whatever in historical fact, and must
be rejected. On the other hand, the apparent difficulty in interpreting the above Qur'anic
passage disappears immediately if the term ayah is understoood, correctly, as "message",
and if we read this verse in conjunction with the preceding one, which states that the Jews
and the Christians refuse to accept any revelation which might supersede that of the Bible
for, if read in this way, the abrogation relates to the earlier divine messages and not to
any part of the Qur'an itself. -
He just delivered the message of God to me. If i didn't accept the message i m disobeying God not the messenger. If messenger would have delivered his own message than yes i would have disobeyed him. If I today reject Quran it do not means I am disobeying Messenger , because today Quran has not reached me through Messenger it has reached through different sources.
It is not disobedience it is rejection. Disobedience means if I reject YOUR message when I am required to follow it.
I didn't separate Him from the Message, instead I am saying that Message orders me to Obey the Messenger. The point is it is not Messenger's message, it is God's message. Messenger is just a man in the middle delivering the message.
Yes , so how can I obey the Messenger ? Today I have complete Quran and I don't have any Messenger. When I read this Ayah "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger" , what should I do ? If I write a book and ask a publisher to publish it and sell , There is no point in mentioning "Obey Me and Obey the publisher", unless the publisher have some knowledge to convey other than the contained in book.
Again , if the whole message is in the Quran than it is sufficient to say "Obey Allah" ..or say "Follow Quran" . There is no point in stating "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger". Today He didn't tell me to believe in Quran . There are no words of Him in Quran which tells me to believe in it. It is Allah's word.
You didn't read the whole verse I think. It says "Whom we inspired". The arabic word used is n which according to corpus Quran means "We revealed" and many translators has mentioned "we revealed". So it is obvious it is talking about the Messenger because He was inspired or it was revealed to Him.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=43This discussion is going in circus . I don't want to repeat myself. You keep insisting that obeying messenger means obeying Hadith while I keep repeating that obeying the messenger means obeying Quran and that messenger isn't limited to Mohammed. In another thread you are defending sexual slavery and rape. Really, there is no point in discussing with hadithers when they can't even distinguish between right or wrong.
Peace
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Following links will help
http//www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_the_quran_is_complete_and_therefore_we_don_t_need_hadith_
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/HadithProject1.htmSee the problem with the link you give that it recognizes or only discusses what certain Quranist believe.
"Quranites usually point to the verses of the Quran which state that the Quran is fully detailed and clear and that there is nothing left out of the Quran. Therefore, they ask the question, "Why do we need the Hadith?""
There re however many Quranist who don't have a problem with hadith as long as it does not contradict the Quran. But since you believe in abrogation than that means anytime a hadith comes that can be verified that it contradicts the Quran abrogation will be used to nullify the Quranic verse that contradicts that hadith. This means all kinds of laws and legislations can be added since you also believe the Sunnah can add legislation. So it can npot only delete but add also. So what is the use of the Quran then?
"And We have sent down unto you (O Prophet) the book explaining (tibyanan) everything and as a guidance, and mercy, and glad tidings for those who have surrendered (to God) (1689). "
"Here the words "explaining everything" are said to show that we need no source of guidance other than the Qur'an. Once again we should not abandon the use of
aql (reason) and fikr (reflection) in interpreting any verse, since the Qur'an itself tells us to use these. Nowaql and fikr immediately tell us that we cannot take this verse in an absolute sense. For we would then have to take "everything" literally. But that is obviously impossible, since there are clearly things that the Qur'an does not explain; for example, the rules of Chinese grammar or the way to fix your computer. Thus common sense requires that we qualify "everything" as something like "everything that is relevant to religion, spirituality, and morality Reason further requires us to bring another element in the understanding of this verse and that is that many statements in a text have a context both within the text as a whole and in the circumstances in which the statements were made. This is why we find it easier to understand books written in our own time and in the society in which we live than those written in a different time and place in the former case we know not only the context within the books themselves but also the context provided by external circumstances; whereas in the latter case we know the context within the books but we have much less knowledge of the external context. Now the Qur'an no doubt rises as far above its context as it is possible for a book written in a human language to do, but still it has both types of contexts. Hence the Qur'an explains everything only when its verses are interpreted by taking into account both the context within the book as a whole as well as the context of circumstances, practices, and events that are assumed in those statements. Now this latter context is provided partly by the Hadith."The problem here is he is taking explaining of the Quran or clarifying of the Quran beyond salvation. The Quran is talking about everything a person needs ofr his salvation is tgere not everything he needs to understand everything in the Quran. The Quran itself says there are verses that nobody will understand but the core message is made clear for us. He also is talking about context. This is the argument of "asbab al nuzool" where we have hadiths that tells us why the verse came down and on what occasion. Many times the context that the verse appears in the Quran is ignored and also the other verses elsewhere in the Quran that may elaborate on the topic. He then uses the same logic for all the verses of the Quran that talks about the Quran as sufficient for guidance.
"And We have indeed coined for humanity every kind of similitude (mathal) in this Qur'an that they may reflect (3927; see also 1789, 1854, 305.
Again, this statement should be understood in the same way as the statement that the Qur'an explains everything."
He also says
There are other verses showing that the Prophet's involvement in his work as the messenger was much deeper than that of a mere deliveryman. The Qur'an says
Have We not opened your breast (O Prophet). And lifted from you the burden that was weighing down your back (941-3).
From these verses it becomes clear that a great deal happened within the soul of the Prophet before he embarked on his mission. Simply conveying a message as a postman need not have involved such inner back-breaking struggles
"The problem here is he is downplaying the mission of the prophet. He is not delivering a pizza brickwall, he is delivering God's message. Once again it is not understanding the magnitude of that mission. The Quran itself says to the prophet in surat Taha that the Quran was not brought down to you to suffer. Yet he is saying the opposite. He sees that mission as a postman mission. Yet the Quran tells us that the prophet reached a point where he thought the only thing he is getting from this mission is a struggle.
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This discussion is going in circus . I don't want to repeat myself. You keep insisting that obeying messenger means obeying Hadith while I keep repeating that obeying the messenger means obeying Quran and that messenger isn't limited to Mohammed.
I only argued that Obeying Messenger clearly implies that there is something outside Quran that we have to follow and that is the Messenger. you call it sunnah , hadith or whatever. But the verses I quoted are clearly referring to the person on whom Quran was revealed. If it was not Muhammad, who was that ?
In another thread you are defending sexual slavery and rape.
Peace
I never defend sexual slavery and rape. I am just arguing about the concept of "right hand possesses" , there is no rape or sex slavery in this.
Really, there is no point in discussing with hadithers when they can't even distinguish between right or wrong.
Did i use hadiths in any comment of mine ? except clarifying the concept of niqab to someone who posted the hadith of abu dawud. In the beginning I said that I have no agenda of converting anyone or to get converted, that is why many comments back I said that we should stop this discussion as enough of evidence is provided from both sides.