Why do you reject hadiths
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This is my last reply on this topic . Nice discussion with you all and I respect your understanding and beliefs , but I do not agree with you and I do not have any hatred for you , everyone has its own reasons to believe or accept something or reject it. This is a long reply because in last I will give certain verses which I think are showing that there was something other than Quran given to Messenger (Muhammad).
Peace rameez.
I read your link, I do not see This Hadith states that the prophet maintained his anti-hadith stand until death.
refuted.How can the messenger do something after he is dead? Whoever wrote his saying after he died,was not a messenger?
How can you say you are following the messenger/obeying the messenger?
Well , "stand until death" is not there in the hadith and the link has not mentioned that. And other hadiths clarifies that Prophet gave permission to write down ahadeeths. Every narration has a background .
From the link
Bukhari Volume 001, Book 003, Hadith Number 111.
Narated By Ash-Sha'bi Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked Ali, 'Have you got any book (which has been revealed to the Prophet apart from the Qur'an)?' 'Ali replied, 'No, except Allah's Book or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (with me).' Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked, 'What is (written) in this sheet of paper?' Ali replied, it deals with The Diyya (compensation (blood money) paid by the killer to the relatives of the victim), the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever). (See also Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 004, Book 053, Hadith Number 397, Volume 009, Book 083, Hadith Numbers 040 & 50
Bukhari Volume 008, Book 076, Hadith Number 480.
Narated By Warrad (The clerk of Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba) Muawiya wrote to Al-Mughira "Write to me a narration you have heard from Allah's Apostle." So Al-Mughira wrote to him, "I heard him saying the following after each prayer 'La ilaha illal-lahu wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahu-l-mulk wa lahuI-hamd, wa huwa 'ala kulli Shai-in qadir.' He also used to forbid idle talk, asking too many questions (in religion), wasting money, preventing what should be given, and asking others for something (except in great need), being undutiful to mothers, and burying one's little daughters (alive)."
"The underlined phrase of the had?th clarifies that prohibition for writing had?th was not on account of negating its authority. The actual reason was that in the beginning of the revelation of the Holy Qur'?n, the companions of the Holy Prophet were not fully familiar with the Qur'?nic style, nor was the Holy Qur'?n compiled in a separate book form. In those days some companions began to write the ah?d?th along with the Qur'?nic text. Some explanations of the Holy Qur'?n given by the Holy Prophet were written by some of them mixed with the Qur'?nic verses without any distinction between the two. It was therefore feared that it would lead to confuse the Qur'?nic text with the ah?d?th."
At this stage, the Holy Prophet himself directed his companions to write down the ah?d?th. Some of his instructions in this respect are quoted below
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One companion from the Ans?r complained to the Holy Prophet that he hears from him some ah?d?th, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet said
"Seek help from your right hand," and pointed out to a writing. -
R?fi' ibn Khadij, the famous companion of the Holy Prophet says, "I said to the Holy Prophet we hear from you many things, should we write them down?" He repliedYou may write. There is no harm.
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Sayyiduna Anas reports that the Holy Prophet has said
Preserve knowledge by writing. -
Sayyiduna Abu R?fi' sought permission from the Holy Prophet to write ah?d?th. The Holy Prophet () permitted him to do so.
It is reported that the ah?d?th written by Abu R?fi' were copied by other companions too. Salma, a pupil of Ibn 'Abb?s says
I saw some small wooden boards with 'Abdull?h Ibn 'Abb?s. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Holy Prophet which he acquired from Abu R?fi'.Also whatever we quote to you from Qoran, you are going to use " abrogation" to refute it, even though GOD clearly says
6115 The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice. ( do you need the word of Humans in religion?) Nothing shall abrogate HIS words. HE is the Hearer, the Omniscient.?
But in another place it is clearly mentioned that we Abrogate a verse and bring another better than it.
It is so clear that "except Allah" no one can abrogates His statements. If hadiths abrogates anything the hadiths are sayings of Prophet and Prophet got them from Allah. Prophet didn't say anything about religion from his own will , he just said what Allah revealed to Him.
I can also see a lot of words, a lot of contradictions, a lot of confusion ( not understanding what GOD says) going on in your argument to justify hearsay. Not a shred of "proof/evidence" that it is from the messenger.
You are most welcome to point that out.
I wonder what you are going to make of the following?
6114 Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law ( and religion!); When HE has revealed to you this book fully detailed? ( No need for the words of men?) Those who received the scripture ( before you) recognise that it has been revealed from your Lord truthfully. (With proof that it is the word of GOD? ) You shall not harbour any doubt.?
6137 Thus were the idol worshippers duped by their idols ( made up rules/ misled by the words of men?) to the extent of killing their children. ( Like stoning for adultery ?) In fact their idols inflict great pain upon them ( invent laws/rules , Write their own books and claim it is from GOD,Mix in traditions, Add/ takeaway?) and confuse their religion for them? Disregard them and their fabrications.?
Peace.
Following are some examples which shows that there was something other than Quran that was given to Messenger.
And We did not appoint the Qiblah on which you were earlier, but that We might know the people who follow the Messenger as distinct from those who turn back on their heels. (2143) So turn your face towards al-Masjid al-Haraam. (2144)
Please explain which is the earlier Qiblah ? And how were the people who follow the Messenger were facing that Qiblah if is not mentioned in Quran ?
It is made lawful for you, in the nights of fasts, to have sex with your women. They are a cover for you, and you are a cover for them. All?h knew that you were betraying yourselves; so, He relented towards you and pardoned you. So, now you can have sexual intimacy with them, and seek what All?h has destined for you, and eat and drink until the white thread of the dawn becomes distinct from the black thread; then complete the fasts up to the night. (2187)
The following points with respect to this verse are worth consideration
(a) The verse confirms that having sex during the nights of Ramadaan was not lawful before.
(b) The people who had sex during the nights of Ramadaan before this verse was revealed are admonished by describing their act as "betraying themselves."
(c) The words, "so He relented towards you and pardoned you," indicate that their sexual act was a sin, because "relenting" and "pardoning" occur only after a person commits a sin.
(d) The words "so now you can have sexual intimacy with them" denote that it is only now that the sexual act during the nights of Ramadaan has been made lawful.All these points confirm the fact that the earlier prohibition of having sexual intercourse during the nights of Ramadaan was validly made by a competent authority, and the Muslims were bound to abide by it.
But there is no verse in the Holy Qur'?n to convey this prohibition.. It was enforced only by the Holy Prophet. Still, the Holy Qur'?n not only confirms it, but also treats it as if it were in its own words. It is due to the fact that the Holy Prophet did not enforce this prohibition by his own will, it was rather based on a revelation of All?h Almighty which is not contained in the Holy Qur'?n.And when All?h promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (87)
The point worth consideration here is that the promise of All?h to give the Muslims victory against any of the two groups is not there in the Holy Qur'?n.
And when the Prophet told one of his wives about a matter secretly; then, when she told about it, and All?h has disclosed it to him, he made known some part of it, and turned aside from some part; then, when he told her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was told by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware." (66 3)
How Allah disclosed this to Prophet ? because it is not mentioned in Quran anywhere.
Whatever date-trees you cut down, or left standing upon their roots, that was by the leave of All?h. (595)
It has been very directly mentioned in this verse that the Muslims cut down the trees with a leave from All?h. But nobody can point out to any verse in the Holy Qur'?n to the effect that the cutting of trees during the war is allowed. The question is from where did the Muslims acquire this leave from All?h?
Take due care of all the prayers and the middle prayer; and stand before All?h in total devotion. But if you are in fear, then (pray) on foot or riding, but when you are in peace, then recite the name of All?h in the way He taught you. (2238-239)
Now, the Holy Qur'?n directs the Muslims that in the state of peace they should perform the prayer in its normal way which has been taught to them by All?h. It is an express indication that the normal way of performing prayers has been taught to the Muslims by All?h Himself. But no such way has ever been mentioned in the Holy Qur'?n. There is no verse in the Holy Book mentioning the detailed way of performing prayer. It is only the Holy Prophet who educated the Muslims as to how they are to perform it. But the Holy Qur'?n holds the teaching of the Holy Prophet to be the teaching of All?h.
Those remaining behind will say, when you set forth after spoils to acquire them, "Let us follow you,"- desiring to change the words of All?h. Say, "You shall not follow us; so All?h has said earlier." (4815)
The emphasized words indicate that there was a previous word of All?h barring the participation of the hypocrites in the battle of Khaybar, and confining the battle to the participants of Hudaibiyah. But no such word exists anywhere in the Holy Qur'?n.
Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19)
In the last sentence, All?h Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet to explain the verses of the Holy Qur'?n to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Qur'?n itself. It is not the Holy Qur'?n. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Because first the verses are given then explanation , but Quran only contains verses not explanation , where is the explanation that Allah promised to explain after "reading" ?
And All?h has revealed upon you the Book and the wisdom, and has taught you what you did not know and the grace of All?h upon you has been great. (4113)
In this verse the revelation of the Wisdom has been mentioned as separate from the revelation of the Book. It indicates that the wisdom referred to here is something additional to the Holy Qur'?n, and it has also been revealed to the Holy Prophet by All?h Almighty
And it is not possible for a human being that All?h should speak to him, except by way of revelation or from behind a curtain, or that He should send a messenger and he reveals by His leave what He wills. (4251)
Now, out of these three modes, the revelation of the Holy Qur'?n was carried out through the third one, namely, through an angel who is identified in the verse by the word, "messenger." It is clearly settled by some other verses
Say Whoever be an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel, the angel)! it is he who has brought it (the Qur'?n) down upon your heart by the permission of All?h. (297)
And truly it (the Qur'?n) is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds, brought down by the Faithful Spirit upon your heart, that you may be one of the warners, in a clear Arabic tongue. (26192-195)These verses are quite explicit on the point that the Holy Qur'?n has been revealed through an angel, named in the first verse as Jibreel, and in the second one as the Faithful Spirit; but the verse (4251) quoted above describes that there are two more ways of revelation. These two modes have also been used in the case of the Holy Prophet. It means that the revelation sent down to the Holy Prophet was not confined to the Holy Qur'?n, but there were other revelations, too. These revelations are termed as "unrecited revelation."
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This is my last reply on this topic . Nice discussion with you all and I respect your understanding and beliefs , but I do not agree with you and I do not have any hatred for you , everyone has its own reasons to believe or accept something or reject it. This is a long reply because in last I will give certain verses which I think are showing that there was something other than Quran given to Messenger (Muhammad).
Peace -- before you run; post only one hadith other than Qur'an you are certain is true and stake your soul.
We want to be witnesses on the last day when you are questioned.
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You did not answer my question. How is Muslims being majority and applying shariah law going to change the verses we were talking about? What is it going to be replaced by?
No verse will be changed unless it is confirmed that it is abrogated . I don't know what verses I said that they will be changed.
As far as your argument of Muslims being in error. The Sunnah emerged two centuries after Muhammad anyways. Plus this is the same argument Christians give. All those Christians are wrong they ask. The question is whether anything is considtent with the Quran.
Sunnah emerged two centuries after Muhammad ? That shows your sheer ignorance. Sunnah was there from the time of Muhammad, it was only recorded and compiled in books after 2 centuries, Companions of Muhammad and their generation were strictly following sunnah and it was passed verbally usually . It was compiled in books after 2 centuries but it was present from the time of Muhammad and after him.
So you are saying that Allah revealed his last and final deen and for 2 hundred years it was followed but after that some massive corruption occured that people forgot the real Quran and for more than 1000 years they followed wrong religion , but now 100 years back someone got the correct interpretation ?
Jizya if you read the Quran was imposed on the meccans upon the entering of the believers after their ineveitable defeat. many believers lost their homes and busineses and their livelihood when they were forced into exile. This is not a conquest or simply people of other faiths, just like the Quran allowed defnsive war the Quran allowed compensation for losses due to persecution. Later Muslim authorities applied that any non Muslim who live under Islamic rule. They also abrogated defensive war for offensive war with the hadith of "i was ordered to fight the people till they say la ilaha illa Allah" we find in Bukhari.
Yes , as i said keep making up interpretations , they were not entering , it was ordered for polytheists not to let them come near Masjid Al-Haram as they used to live at near by places and considered that place to be sacred. 929 mentioned People of the book not the polytheists. I don't know how you got that interpretation.
929 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
No where the verse talk about compensation etc.
They later abrogated the freedom verses for "whoever changes his religion than kill him" hadith. Also in Bukhari's collection.
They also violated the eye for an eye soul for a soul law of the Quran (proportionality justice). Often in Sunni Islam the punishment can exceed the crime in the name of deterence. The Quran does not recognize deterence but only recognizes proportional justice. Like a scale, the left side should be equal to the right side (the meezan). The punishment should always fit the crime. Amputation of a thief is a good example of how the hand for a hand law was violated. Here the punishment never can fit the crime. They also changed the criteria for faith in the Quran from the believe in God and the hereafter to the 5 pillars of Islam thereby introducing a concept of faith not backed by an explicit verse of the Quran and paving the way of labelling Jews and Christians who believe in God as infidels. They also introduced the obeying the tyrant concept whereby Muslims are ordered to obey the tyranic Muslim ruler and this opened the door for an opressive governments where no opposition can take place. We also have not gone yet to prisoners of war where the Quran allwoed two options, either freedom or ransom of some sort. Through hadiths they introduced two more, enslavement of female prisoners where sex with them is allowed and execution. Once again the tyranical ruler makes those decision. So now we have a Pharoah like government where the ruler has live and death authority. The Quran which considered eeding of prisoners as a charity act and ordered us to free the slaves whenever we can has now become a scripture attached with a religion that allows slavery for prisoners and even executing them. This is not the deen of Moses, but the deen of Pharoah.
Amputation of theif is not in Quran ? Eye for an eye is not in Quran ? Jews and Christians are not infidels ? I know you will quote 262 and 569 and as usual you will ignore all the verses that makes it an article of faith to believe in all books,messengers etc.
Okey so lets say we do not take women and children as captives instead free them . Then you have to explain "right hand possess" in 236,7030,424,3350 etc. It seems that I can take a woman and purchase her and she become my property (right hand possession) , is that ok ?
Oh, Deen of Moses ? Do you know what the deen of Moses was ? Quran says that people of Moses were ordered to kill each other when they worshipped calf . I think if any Muslim change his religion and take calf to worship , then his punishment is to get killed according to deen of Moses.
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offtopic
Peace -- before you run; post only one hadith other than Qur'an you are certain is true and stake your soul.
We want to be witnesses on the last day when you are questioned.
I am not running, I just wanted to end the discussion ,I am here on this forum , okey will keep replying as you want to drag the conversation ,its your choice.
Can you quote a verse that you are sure is from God and true ?
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Can you quote a verse that you are sure is from God and true ?
Yes the entire book -- I stake my soul that it is true and you are welcome to be a witness.
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22 that the book not doubt in it guidance to the mindful
23 the ones who they believe in the unseen and establish the prayer and from what we provided them they spend
24 and the ones who they believe in what descended to you and what descended from before you and in the afterlife they firmly believe
25 those over guidance from their Lord and those who they the successful -
Yes the entire book -- I stake my soul that it is true and you are welcome to be a witness.
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22 that the book not doubt in it guidance to the mindful
23 the ones who they believe in the unseen and establish the prayer and from what we provided them they spend
24 and the ones who they believe in what descended to you and what descended from before you and in the afterlife they firmly believe
25 those over guidance from their Lord and those who they the successfulI believe in All SAHIH hadiths but here are two , which might be of interest to you
Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited. Beware! The domestic ass, beasts of prey with fangs, a find belonging to confederate, unless its owner does not want it, are not permissible to you If anyone comes to some people, they must entertain him, but if they do not, he has a right to mulct them to an amount equivalent to his entertainment. (Abu Dawud Book #40, Hadith #4587)
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of rajam, and so did we after him." (Bukhari Book #82, Hadith #816)
This verse will also interest you
We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
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Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.
It doesn't say obey what Bukhari said that the Messenger said. Disobeying Ahadith is not disobeying the Messenger it's disobeying the memory of a chain of people who claim they heard the Messenger said something. While, disobeying Qur'an is disobeying Allah s.w.t. and the Messenger.As someone already mentioned, maybe among all those Ahadith there's few that the Messenger really said, but it is pretty hard to know which one. I don't really care if Hadith scientist came to conclusion that certain hadith is true, it's still man-made and it is not certain the Prophet said that. Qur'an is God's word, Muhammad pbuh was a "walking" Qur'an and of course his companions were ought to obey him along with God.
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This is my last reply on this topic . Nice discussion with you all and I respect your understanding and beliefs , but I do not agree with you and I do not have any hatred for you , everyone has its own reasons to believe or accept something or reject it. This is a long reply because in last I will give certain verses which I think are showing that there was something other than Quran given to Messenger (Muhammad).
Dear brother Rameez,
None of the aayaats quoted by you refers to Mohammed. I don't see mentioning of the word "Mohammed" in any of those aayaats. Please be careful before you say anything wrong on Allah or try to correct Him or put words into His mouth by adding your own words in brackets to the pure and clear aayaats of Allah.
This is just and advice, if you like accept it if you don't like it throw it in trash.
1069
1069 Say, "Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed."2968
2968 And who is more unjust than one who invents a lie about Allah or denies the truth when it has come to him? Is there not in Hell a residence for the disbelievers?2208
2209
22102208 And of the people is he who disputes about Allah with other knowledge and without guidance and without an enlightening book
2209 Twisting his neck to mislead from the way of Allah. For him in the world is disgrace, and We will make him taste on the Day of Resurrection the punishment of the Burning Fire
2210 "That is for what your hands have put forth and because Allah is not ever unjust to servants."May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Peace rameez.
I will go through few of your points1-Quote Well , "stand until death" is not there in the hadith and the link has not mentioned that.
Just because the link has not mentioned it, it is not there? I gave you the book and the page? Or do you mean you have no answer?
2- Quote But in another place it is clearly mentioned that we Abrogate a verse and bring another better than it.
I am afraid you do not understand the verse," Ayaat" in the verse does not mean any verse of the revelation, it means" miracle/sign".
What GOD is saying is He replaces one miracle with another. For example the miracle of Moses was the parting of the sea, Jesus came with a different miracle and the miracle of Mohammed is Qoran. GOD does not contradict Himself!
GOD clearly says " If it was from other than GOD, they would have found in it many contradictions"
Are you saying there are contradictions in Qoran?
In the same way you did not understand the verses you quoted afterwards to justify" they are other sources beside Qoran".
I am happy to go through each one and refute your explanations.
3- Quote You are most welcome to point that out.
I already pointed out that it is your lack of understanding Qoran that is leading you to believe GOD contradicts Himself?
Therefore all your argument will fall flat on its face when you see there are no contradictions in Qoran.
Peace.
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Salaam
Let be a little provoking and consider this theory Books of Hadiths are the response of Satan to Quran
Argument 1 Hadithers are the first target of Satan
26221 Shall I inform you on whom the devils come down?
26222 They come down on every sinful liar.
26223 They claim to listen (or repeat what they heard), but most of them are liars.Argument 2 God never extracts his religion from gossips and conjectures. It is Satan Method and each paragraph in books of Hadith is a new Conjecture about its origin.
Hadithers recognize that books of Hadiths are extracted from a huge mountain of lies and gossip. Only 1% of Hadiths found by Bukhari would have been retained.6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.Argument 3 Nowhere there is mention in Quran where it is asked to see for others books of Muhammad (word book is one of the most frequent words in quran). It is also clearly said that is is forbidden for the prophet to bring other books (10-15,17-7375) but that Satan will do that (22-52).
1015 And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Qur'an/Lecture other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great Day!"
1773 And they nearly diverted you from what We inspired to you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!
1774 And if We had not made you stand firm, you were about to lean towards them a little bit.
1775 Then, We would have made you taste double the retribution in this life and double the retribution in death. And then you would not find for yourself any victor against Us.2252 And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the devil has cast, and God secures His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.
I can add other arguments (errors, contradictions, a way for satan to give his owns quranic interpretations through tafassirs, a way to erase verses by naskh and mansoukh etc...).
So I don?t believe in hadiths because it is so much easier to argue that they are words of Satan.
Peace
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rameez
So you are saying that Allah revealed his last and final deen and for 2 hundred years it was followed but after that some massive corruption occured that people forgot the real Quran and for more than 1000 years they followed wrong religion , but now 100 years back someone got the correct interpretation ?
Last and final deen.. blaaah...
A christian asked me the same thing Are you saying that Allah revealed the Christ and for the first decades it was followed but after some massive corruption occured that people forgot the real Christ and for 2000 years followed wrong religion, but now you got the correct interpretation that Christ is not GOD?
Your arguments are so typical christian arguments.
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I believe in All SAHIH hadiths but here are two , which might be of interest to you
Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited. Beware! The domestic ass, beasts of prey with fangs, a find belonging to confederate, unless its owner does not want it, are not permissible to you If anyone comes to some people, they must entertain him, but if they do not, he has a right to mulct them to an amount equivalent to his entertainment. (Abu Dawud Book #40, Hadith #4587)
The above is proof there were Qur'an followers from the beginning and they fabricated the above lie 200+ years after revelation that you stake your soul.
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of rajam, and so did we after him." (Bukhari Book #82, Hadith #816)
O' you believe in stoning people and that a goat ate the verses; another obvious lie invented 200+ years after revelation that you stake your soul.
We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
It's the book itself which makes clear to those who reflect otherwise it would not ask them to reflect...
1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and We descended to you the reminder to make clear to the mankind what descended to them and perhaps they who reflect
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No verse will be changed unless it is confirmed that it is abrogated . I don't know what verses I said that they will be changed.
Sunnah emerged two centuries after Muhammad ? That shows your sheer ignorance. Sunnah was there from the time of Muhammad, it was only recorded and compiled in books after 2 centuries, Companions of Muhammad and their generation were strictly following sunnah and it was passed verbally usually . It was compiled in books after 2 centuries but it was present from the time of Muhammad and after him.
So you are saying that Allah revealed his last and final deen and for 2 hundred years it was followed but after that some massive corruption occured that people forgot the real Quran and for more than 1000 years they followed wrong religion , but now 100 years back someone got the correct interpretation ?
Yes , as i said keep making up interpretations , they were not entering , it was ordered for polytheists not to let them come near Masjid Al-Haram as they used to live at near by places and considered that place to be sacred. 929 mentioned People of the book not the polytheists. I don't know how you got that interpretation.
929 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
No where the verse talk about compensation etc.
Amputation of theif is not in Quran ? Eye for an eye is not in Quran ? Jews and Christians are not infidels ? I know you will quote 262 and 569 and as usual you will ignore all the verses that makes it an article of faith to believe in all books,messengers etc.
Okey so lets say we do not take women and children as captives instead free them . Then you have to explain "right hand possess" in 236,7030,424,3350 etc. It seems that I can take a woman and purchase her and she become my property (right hand possession) , is that ok ?
Oh, Deen of Moses ? Do you know what the deen of Moses was ? Quran says that people of Moses were ordered to kill each other when they worshipped calf . I think if any Muslim change his religion and take calf to worship , then his punishment is to get killed according to deen of Moses.
9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Commentators disagree on the definition and derivation of the word jizya
Yusuf Ali states "The derived meaning, which became the technical meaning, was a poll-tax levied from those who did not accept Islam, but were willing to live under the protection of Islam, and were thus tacitly willing to submit to the laws enforced by the Muslim State."
Monqiz As-Saqqar attributes the word jizya to the root word jaza meaning "compensate" and defines it as "a sum of money given in return for protection".
Ibn Al-Mutaraz derives the word from 'idjz?, meaning "substitute" or "sufficiency" because "it suffices as a substitute for the dhimmi's embracement of Islam."
Yusuf al-Qaradawi says the word jizya is derived from the jazaa', meaning "reward", "return", or "compensation", and defines it as "a payment by the non-Muslim according to an agreement signed with the Muslim state".
Edward William Lane, in An Arabic-English Lexicon defines jizya as a "tax that is taken from the free non-Muslim subjects of a Muslim government whereby they ratify the compact that assures them protection.
Ibn Rushd explains that jizya is in fact a broader concept than just a head-tax. It also includes monies exacted in times of war ? what is normally understood in English by the word ?tribute? ? as well as levies (?ushr) on non-mulsim merchants who are trading in the Dar al-Harb.
So here we see Jizya means compensation or reward. Its hard to see how tax fit into this. Plus there is no evidence from the Quran that Jizya is monetary. It simply means a compensation or a reward for something. Jizya linguistically could mean reward, compensation or substitute. So what do the Sects claim about Jizya?
Jizya is mentioned a number of times in the hadith. Common themes across multiple hadith (and often multiple collections of hadith) include Muhammad ordering his military commanders to fight non-Muslims until they accepted Islam or paid the jizya, Muhammad and a number of caliphs imposing jizya on various peoples, and the eventual abolition of jizya by Jesus' Second Coming.
Sahih BukhariSahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 475 states 'Umar's concern for the well-being of dhimmis on his deathbed (after he was stabbed by a dhimmi). 'Umar commanded his would-be successor to "abide by the rules and regulations concerning the Dhimmis (protectees) of Allah and His Apostle, to fulfill their contracts completely and fight for them and not to tax (overburden) them beyond their capabilities".
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 559 states that the King of Aila wrote to Muhammad that his people agreed to pay the jizya tax in return for being allowed to stay in their place.
Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425 states that Jesus will abolish the jizya, as does Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657.
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 384 states that Umar did not take the jizya from the "Magian infidels" (Zoroastrians) until he heard testimony that Muhammad had taken the jizya from the Magians of Hajar.
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 385 states that Muhammad collected jizya from the people of Bahrain, as do Volume 5, Book 59, Number 351 and Volume 8, Book 76, Number 433.
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386 states that Muhammad commanded Al-Mughira and his army to fight non-Muslims until they worshiped Allah alone or gave jizya.
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 404 has Muhammad stating that one day Allah will make the dhimmis "so daring that they will refuse to pay the Jizya they will be supposed to pay".
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 49 reports that Muhammad said "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)",
Sahih MuslimSahih Muslim Book 1, Numbers 287 and 289 state that the "son of Mary" will "descend as a just judge" and, among other things, abolish the jizya.
Book 19, Number 4294 states that Muhammad commanded his military leaders to demand jizya from non-Muslims if they refused to accept Islam, and to fight them if they refused to pay.
Book 32, Number 6328 states that Hisham b. Hakim b. Hizam passed by Syrian farmers who had been detained for jizya and made to stand in the sun, and Number 6330 states that he came by some Nabateans who had been detained "in connection with the dues of jizya". In both cases his response was to quote Muhammad as saying "Allah would torment those persons who torment people in the world."
Book 42, Number 7065 states that that Muhammad collected jizya from the people of Bahrain.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Jizya is not about non Muslims. Many verses of the Quran came down in Medina where many Jews were and there are many conversations in the Quran regarding that. Jizya however came down only regarding the entering of Mecca. I believe it is a compensation for loss of property and business suffered by some of Muhammad's followers when they were forced to exile from Mecca thereby losing their home. Some Quranist have said it could mean ransom for prisoners held by Muhammad and his followers, also regarding Meccan pagan and Meccan Jews.
As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 608-9
It also says
Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ?Our Lord is God.? 2239-40
Some have said Jizya could mean some prisoner ransom of some sort such as regarding this verse of the Koran
33,26. And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
33.27. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things
Its talking about those who aided the pagan Meccans. It has nothing to do with anybody else except the fighting parties. Jizya could mean some form of agreement but only between parties who were at war.
9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe
The Koran forbade prophets for seeking any monetary rewards from the people unless its charity. Plus you can not conquer and then impose a tax claiming to defend and protect them. They never asked for you to conquer them in the first place. Conquering in the name of Islam by force is against the Koran anyways.
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Why do you guys reject hadiths and why do you think that Hadiths are false and fabrications but still followed by more than 90% of muslims for more than 1000 years ?
Why Allah allowed such a massive corruption in his last and final religion ?
I am going to answer the second part of your question first "Why are they followed by 90% of Muslims for more than 1000 years?" The same way Christians observe Christmas...no one takes the time to find out where something originated. When I actually sat down and reviewed the Bible, I first discovered that Jesus wasn't born in the winter time...it would have more than likely been when it was warmer due to the sheperds and sheep tending to flock late at night. Then I learned that the holiday is riddled with pagan practices The tree and gift giving, and even day, are synonymous with a roman festival called Saturnalia.
Needless to say, after that, I was no longer observing Christmas.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia
http//www.ucg.org/booklet/jesus-christ-real-story/jesus-amazing-fulfillment-prophecy/was-jesus-born-dec-25/
Now, the reason I no longer follow hadith is because it is hypocritical. How can Muslims chastise Christians for following the teachings of an apostle(s) that they claim never knew Jesus, never walked with him, yet we follow hadith which were passed down by word of mouth and finally recorded 200 years after the death of Muhammed by someone who (gasp!) never met Muhammed?
When I found out I was doing the same thing over here that I had been doing over there, I felt like a fool. No more hadith for me.
Finally, who are we to question Allah? Did he not create us and then universe? I am sure He knows what He is doing.
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Peace rameez.
I will go through few of your points1-Quote Well , "stand until death" is not there in the hadith and the link has not mentioned that.
Just because the link has not mentioned it, it is not there? I gave you the book and the page? Or do you mean you have no answer?
I said it is not in "hadith". Even the hadith you quoted do not have those words.
2- Quote But in another place it is clearly mentioned that we Abrogate a verse and bring another better than it.
I am afraid you do not understand the verse," Ayaat" in the verse does not mean any verse of the revelation, it means" miracle/sign".
What GOD is saying is He replaces one miracle with another. For example the miracle of Moses was the parting of the sea, Jesus came with a different miracle and the miracle of Mohammed is Qoran. GOD does not contradict Himself!
GOD clearly says " If it was from other than GOD, they would have found in it many contradictions"
Are you saying there are contradictions in Qoran?
In the same way you did not understand the verses you quoted afterwards to justify" they are other sources beside Qoran".
I am happy to go through each one and refute your explanations.
Mashallah , another made up interpretation. I never claimed that there are contradictions in Quran. You said that Allah do not abrogate the verse, I posted the complete verse in which it is clearly mentioned that Verses are abrogated. Please don't play this arabic game.
3- Quote You are most welcome to point that out.
I already pointed out that it is your lack of understanding Qoran that is leading you to believe GOD contradicts Himself?
Therefore all your argument will fall flat on its face when you see there are no contradictions in Qoran.
Peace.
What ? I claimed that there are contradictions in Quran ?
Salaam
Let be a little provoking and consider this theory Books of Hadiths are the response of Satan to Quran
Argument 1 Hadithers are the first target of Satan
Argument 2 God never extracts his religion from gossips and conjectures. It is Satan Method and each paragraph in books of Hadith is a new Conjecture about its origin.
Hadithers recognize that books of Hadiths are extracted from a huge mountain of lies and gossip. Only 1% of Hadiths found by Bukhari would have been retained.Argument 3 Nowhere there is mention in Quran where it is asked to see for others books of Muhammad (word book is one of the most frequent words in quran). It is also clearly said that is is forbidden for the prophet to bring other books (10-15,17-7375) but that Satan will do that (22-52).
I can add other arguments (errors, contradictions, a way for satan to give his owns quranic interpretations through tafassirs, a way to erase verses by naskh and mansoukh etc...).
So I don?t believe in hadiths because it is so much easier to argue that they are words of Satan.
Peace
Its strange , whenever I quote the verses, instead of explaining those verses, you bring some other verses. You can check my previous replies in which I have quoted enough verses to prove my point. I am no where denying the verses you guys are quoting I believe in full Quran not some cherrypicked verses like you. But there are other verses too in Quran that prove there was something other than given to Messenger.
The above is proof there were Qur'an followers from the beginning and they fabricated the above lie 200+ years after revelation that you stake your soul.
O' you believe in stoning people and that a goat ate the verses; another obvious lie invented 200+ years after revelation that you stake your soul.
It's the book itself which makes clear to those who reflect otherwise it would not ask them to reflect...
1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and We descended to you the reminder to make clear to the mankind what descended to them and perhaps they who reflect
LOL @ lie invented 200+ years.
Salaam
Let be a little provoking and consider this theory Books of Hadiths are the response of Satan to Quran
Argument 1 Hadithers are the first target of Satan
Argument 2 God never extracts his religion from gossips and conjectures. It is Satan Method and each paragraph in books of Hadith is a new Conjecture about its origin.
Hadithers recognize that books of Hadiths are extracted from a huge mountain of lies and gossip. Only 1% of Hadiths found by Bukhari would have been retained.
Argument 3 Nowhere there is mention in Quran where it is asked to see for others books of Muhammad (word book is one of the most frequent words in quran). It is also clearly said that is is forbidden for the prophet to bring other books (10-15,17-7375) but that Satan will do that (22-52).
I can add other arguments (errors, contradictions, a way for satan to give his owns quranic interpretations through tafassirs, a way to erase verses by naskh and mansoukh etc...).
So I don?t believe in hadiths because it is so much easier to argue that they are words of Satan.
Peace
Response to Argument 1
465 But no, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you, , judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in submission.2448 And when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, at once a party of them turns aside .
Response to Argument 2
Hadiths are not gossips or conjecture. People of knowledge and authority have studied them extensively and have separated/pointed out fabrications. People have spent their lives in studying this thing.Response to Argument 3
I failed to see where it is mentioned that don't bring any other book. It just say "I follow what is revealed to me" .You are free to reject or accept whatever you want.
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Rameez,
I guess I am a little confused as to how or why you came upon the site? Not saying you aren't welcome...I just find it strange that you defend the hadith so strongly. Or did you come here to prove us wrong in our beliefs?
Peace,
Amina
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Rameez,
I guess I am a little confused as to how or why you came upon the site? Not saying you aren't welcome...I just find it strange that you defend the hadith so strongly. Or did you come here to prove us wrong in our beliefs?
Peace,
Amina
I am here to understand your(Quranists) views and I cannot understand them deeply unless I debate/discuss with you guys. I am not here to prove your wrong ..I am just giving my arguments and reading your arguments back.
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Hadiths are not gossips or conjecture. People of knowledge and authority have studied them extensively and have separated/pointed out fabrications. People have spent their lives in studying this thing.
people have also spent their lived in studying things like thast Jesus is son of God and bible the words of God. What do you say about that?